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Fred Litwin

I Was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak

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8 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

The single bullet theory is NOT a rational explanation. It violates the laws of physics. Bullets travel in a straight line unless they are deflected by a solid object. But President Kennedy was not leaning forward when the "single" bullet hit him.

The involvement of other gunmen is NOT speculation. It is backed up by the testimony of numerous witnesses AND scientific evidence.

Then it should be a simple matter to get your information to scientists, the media and others who can make these facts known to the public. But as far as witnesses, you should be aware that people witnessing an event will vary in their explanations of what happened.

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2 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

And by the way... are you aware that the HSCA concluded there was a high probability that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy?

Yes, and I also know why they said that. But Steve Barber, Dale Myers and other information have showed the acoustics evidence to be wrong.

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2 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Then it should be a simple matter to get your information to scientists, the media and others who can make these facts known to the public. But as far as witnesses, you should be aware that people witnessing an event will vary in their explanations of what happened.

These facts were made public long ago. That's why a majority of people believe in conspiracy.

1 minute ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Yes, and I also know why they said that. But Steve Barber, Dale Myers and other information have showed the acoustics evidence to be wrong.

Okay, not being an acoustics experts I'm in no position to analyze the tape myself. But I want to point out some facts that have led me to believe that the dictabelt is indeed evidence for a second gunman:

- It is in accordance with what we know to be true. After all they also found 3 shots from the book depository.

- Two teams of researchers came to the same conclusion. They were among the top notch experts in America.

- They found that the microphone traveled at about 11 mph - almost exactly the speed of the motorcade. Coincidence?

- They found N-waves characteristic of the sonic boom of a bullet. How would they find that in random noise?

- The underlying science is well-founded. It had been used to solve other crimes.

- Their results confirmed what numerous witnesses had either heard, smelled or seen.

- As far as I know the scientists have always stood by their conclusions.

- The photographic evidence shows an unidentified adult behind the picket fence approximately where the shot was supposedly fired from.

Also, from what I've read about Dale Myers he does not appear to be an impartial researcher. --> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c%3Aanimania

Look what he did to Kennedy's neck to make the single bullet theory work.

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5 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Look what he did to Kennedy's neck to make the single bullet theory work.

Myers jacked JFK's coat an inch above his hairline in a desperate attempt to reconcile the clothing evidence with the SBT.

Von Pein in an unguarded moment admitted JFK's jacket was only elevated "a little bit" on Elm St.

When Gaeton Fonzi confronted Arlen Specter with the clothing evidence in 1966 Specter suffered a nervous breakdown.

One guaranteed way to get an LNer to STFU is to shove the bullet holes in JFK's clothes right in their face.

Why argue the fact of conspiracy on any other grounds?

Ya'all letting these clowns off the hook with all the rabbit hole issues like the acoustics.

The LN theory is a zombie feeding on fake debate.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I like Fred Litwin have evolved from Conspiracy Freak to Lone Nutter through a process of nothing more complicated than serious study, intellectual honesty and a refusal to be sucked into a conspiracy mindset. 

What kind of mindset saps an otherwise intelligent individual of the ability to observe the movement of their own shirt?

The SBT requires JFK's clothing to elevate multiple inches even though one can readily observe one's own shirt only moving fractions of an inch.

The evidence is literally under Payette's nose but he is incapable of seeing it!

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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The roots facts of JFK's murder -- entrance wound at T3, no exit + entrance wound in the throat, no exit -- preempts the "Question of Conspiracy Parlor Game,"  which upsets both Lone Nutters and CT Pet Theorists alike.

The JFK murder may be the only homicide in history where the physical evidence found with the body is not just ignored but openly despised by those purporting to investigate it.

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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9 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Interesting. I took it as a complete intellectual resignation by Lance who explains why he wishes to live in a state of a limbo.

Reaching a different conclusion than you after an extensive, decades-long survey of the evidence equates to "complete intellectual resignation" and living in a "state of limbo"?  I'm not even sure what these phrases are supposed to mean.  They strike me as typical knee-jerk conspiracy theorist mud-slinging.

I continue to be engaged with the JFK community to the extent I can stand it.  I recently bought Greg Parker's books on Oswald in the hope that there might be something substantive and new.  I just watched Doug Horne's five-part video presentation and was simply agog, but not for the reasons Mr. Horne would have hoped.  In response to some of the above threads, I spent a half-day revisiting the issue of Ruby's route into the garage.  If ever a genuinely compelling body of evidence surfaces that forces me to reconsider the Lone Nut position, I will enthusiastically do so.  But I'm not holding my breath.

The Lone Nut conclusion has been reached by innumerable sane and intelligent individuals who have thoroughly reviewed the evidence, often in an official capacity.  Most of them, like me, have no vested interest in whether there was or wasn't a conspiracy.  The one thing they "lack," I believe, is the conspiracy mindset.  This isn't something I invented; it's a well-documented psychological state.  I'm not suggesting it's a pathological state or that conspiracy theorists are stupid or delusional.  They simply are prone to embracing fantastical explanations where others are satisfied with more mundane ones.

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

In comparison saying that President Kennedy was assassinated as the result of a conspiracy is NOT an extraordinary claim. In fact throughout history we've seen numerous examples of political conspiracies to kill heads of state. Think of Caesar, Lincoln, the Austrian Archduke etc.

To an extent, I agree with you!  It's actually the Lone Nut explanation that is extraordinary.  Because so many powerful people and groups despised JFK, it's a simple matter to weave plausible conspiracy theories.  The Mafia!  No, wait, LBJ and Hoover … the Soviets … the CIA and Military Intelligence … General Walker and Dallas right-wingers … pro-Castro zealots … anti-Castro zealots.  No, wait, all of them, or at least some combination of at least five of them!

The conspiracy theories aren't extraordinary at all in terms of superficial plausibility.  The fact that a minimum-wage loser like Oswald pulled this off with his clunky mail-order rifle does indeed boggle the mind - and is emotionally unsatisfying to boot.

All the conspiracy theories stumble over one reality:  Lee Harvey Oswald.  No matter how ornate and elaborate the conspiracy, it must account for LHO.  In virtually every one, LHO becomes a cardboard cut-out who is simply inserted into the corners of the conspiracy without regard to who LHO actually was.  The 24-year-old assassin who would most accurately be described as an Angry, Bitter, Mixed-Up Kid With Delusions of Grandeur becomes an International Man of Mystery, the Most Interesting Man In the World.  The real LHO fits into the typical conspiracy theory about as well as Daffy Duck.

Admittedly, the fact that LHO was a 15-year-old with an interest in Marxism, a Marine who served at a U-2 base, and a defector to the USSR who returned with a Russian wife does make him somewhat easier to fit into the various conspiracy scenarios than if he had merely been a fry cook.  But to make him into an International Man of Mystery, the conspiracy theorists are forced to stand the actual man on his ear.  He was not just a mixed-up defector who came crawling back after getting a dose of reality as a factory worker in Minsk.  No, he was the "Oswald Project," a false defector, a CIA operative, an important cog in the Cold War machinery who returned with a wife who was herself a KGB operative.  Uh-huh.  (I had an amusing dose of this myself on these forums.  I mentioned in an offhand way that my late grandmother had been socially acquainted with the Dulles family and that a distant relative, Lorenzo Dow Baker, was one of the founders of the mysterious United Fruit Company.  Next thing I knew, little old me was a "CIA disinformation plant" who would never again be trusted on these forums.  What a hoot.)

Yes, let's examine other assassinations and conspiracies throughout history.  Try to find one that even vaguely resembles the absurdly elaborate and convoluted mass of persons, organizations and events that constitutes the typical JFK conspiracy theory.  This is simply not how conspiracies work or ever could work in the real world.  What the typical conspiracy theorist pictures happening on the day of the assassination and the aftermath simply defies logic and common sense.  The forest of Reality is lost in the trees of conspiracy minutiae.

Try reading the Prayer Man thread if it's still around - this was such a damned weird conspiracy that the conspirators didn't even care if the designated patsy was standing on the front steps of the TBSD at the time of the assassination!  They were such inept dolts that they blasted JFK from the front at ground level but had the patsy stationed six floors up behind him, thereby necessitating body alterations, film alternations, autopsy photo alternations - and leaving hundreds of "obvious" clues in the process!  Can you truly not see that this is lunatic fringe stuff?  (To answer my own question:  No, you can't, if you have the conspiracy mindset.  This is why, to me, the more interesting question is "Why do some sane and intelligent people think this way?")

As we see throughout this forum, the Conspiracy Theory Game is a constant exercise in "Oh, yeah, well what about THIS?"  Anyone who engages with the conspiracy community just has to accept that he or she will forever be playing Whac-A-Mole:  Every time one conspiracy theory is shot down, another will pop up to take its place.  Every time one piece of ostensible conspiracy evidence is refuted, the chorus will shift to "Oh, yeah, well what about THIS?"  Those with the conspiracy mindset will never be satisfied that there wasn't a conspiracy, even if the theory must expand to the point that everyone in America except Lee Harvey Oswald was part of it.  Nothing that I have seen, read or heard forces me to look beyond an Angry, Bitter, Mixed-Up Kid With Delusions of Grandeur.

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3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

The single bullet theory is NOT a rational explanation. It violates the laws of physics. Bullets travel in a straight line unless they are deflected by a solid object. But President Kennedy was not leaning forward when the "single" bullet hit him.

The involvement of other gunmen is NOT speculation. It is backed up by the testimony of numerous witnesses AND scientific evidence.

You are wrong.
You seem not to know very much about the single bullet.
Serious studies have been made about the single bullet. Researchers have used measurements, complex calculations, computer reenactments, and all that sort of things.
To name just three of them :
2003 : the computer animation made by Dale Myers ("The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy")
2004 : the reenactment in "JFK. Beyond the magic bullet", Discovery Channel
2013 : "Cold Case JFK". Nova
They used forensic science and their expertise and showed a re-enactment that goes a long way in proving that the single bullet theory is indeed valid.
Indeed, they did the best they could : they duplicated the path of travel of the bullet.
What is important to underline here is that those people are not from the CIA, or FBI or some type of "hidden government". They are just honest citizens. And they have brought independent confirmation. That's very important !
The single-bullet theory is not just a theory invented by the Warren commission to fool the American people (if it was, it would be easy to disprove it), but it is the most reasonable explanation of the shooting sequence and it has been repeatedly confirmed over the years, by independent people wo didn't know each other. That's very powerful !

See also this very interesting video (interview) :
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=documentary+the+single+bullet+theory&view=detail&mid=319DBF144FED8377E724319DBF144FED8377E724&FORM=VIRE

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Thanks, Lance, for explaining your mental set again. To explain the mental set of a conspiracy thinker: nothing, even seemingly the most simple and trivial aspect of the assassination case,  adds up. We see reflections of what really happened back then mixed with multiple versions of the same. Those multiple versions were often produced by the law enforcement agencies during the assassination weekend or later, by genuine researchers who discovered something palpable, by genuine researchers committing honest errors, or by frauds. It is very difficult to find the truth, and it requires considerable investment of own time and intellectual resources to get a clearer picture. A conspiracy theorist is not satisfied with how the case has been solved and keeps searching. Conspiracy theorists are not waiting for someone to discover something on their behalf, rather they focus on some aspect of the case and try to get to the bottom of it. Sometimes, an aspect can be quite essential - for instance, where was Lee Harvey Oswald during the shooting. A conspiracy thinker has not resigned from investigating the case to disclose, however slim the chance is, maybe new facts or information. If there is anything out there which will completely turn the table, conspiracy researchers but none of lone-nut researchers will find it because these are not searching. Reading JFK assassination books or watching videos is important but not enough. I look forward to having you back in our rows sometimes soon.

Edited by Andrej Stancak

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On 10/6/2018 at 3:03 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

I asked Fred on September 16 about how he as a LN defender assimilated into his LN theory the reports of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newman's only heard bullets being fired from their right and  behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from the Grassy Knoll. How does the LN theory fare with these data? Fred did not answer. And so I still do not know what a LN theorist thinks about data which so clearly disprove the LN view.

Andrej,

Not to mention the nose-witnesses who said they smelled gunsmoke in DP at the time of the shootings (Sen. Ralph Yarborough, etc.).  There is no way gunsmoke could have wafted down Elm all the way down from the easternmost 6th floor window of the TSBD.  I'm guessing DVP and others will say they were mistaken....

Thanks

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40 minutes ago, François Carlier said:


You seem not to know very much about the single bullet.
 

You don't seem to know much about how clothing moves.

How does one spend 16 hours a day wearing a shirt yet remain unfamiliar with how it moves?

Lone Nutters are like Trump Cultists.

Facts don't matter to these people, they just make stuff up.

 

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1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

Reaching a different conclusion than you after an extensive, decades-long survey of the evidence equates to "complete intellectual resignation" and living in a "state of limbo"? 

State of denial.

Your true belief in the LN renders you incapable of making simple physical observations.

Interesting psychological phenomenon.

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3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

These facts were made public long ago. That's why a majority of people believe in conspiracy.

I am not talking about simply making facts public, but about proving a conspiracy through scientific and legal means and reversing the history books. I am working on a blog article about this now. 

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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:


2004 : the reenactment in "JFK. Beyond the magic bullet", Discovery Channel
 

The Australian reenactment showed the bullet exiting the dummy's chest.

In the segment with the chiropractor Chad Zimmerman it took the producers of the show "hundreds of takes" to get the desired elevation of JFK's clothing since it kept falling down.

Zimmerman offered me $10,000 if I could prove that Stan, his JFK stand-in, had the same physique as Kennedy.

In other words, he offered me 10 grand if I could prove he wasn't full of it!

The SBT is an obvious fraud, and those who perpetrate this fraud deserve every bit of contempt we can muster.

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5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I am not talking about simply making facts public, but about proving a conspiracy through scientific and legal means and reversing the history books. I am working on a blog article about this now. 

According to your avatar you wear a shirt, W.

Why is it you're unfamiliar with how your shirt moves when you imitate JFK's casual movement?

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