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James Richards

Leopoldo and Angel

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Richard Nagell and Col. William Bishop described the infamous 'Angel' as being 5 foot 10 inches, 160-165 pounds and of swarthy complexion.

Does anyone have handy the description that Sylvia Odio gave? I know Lawrence Howard has been suggested as a possible but he hardly fits this description.

Also, if anyone has Odio's description of 'Leopoldo', that would be appreciated as well.

Cheers,

James

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James, I can only give you one Odio visitor description:

"Very Mexican looking...very hairy...lots of hair on the chest...about

170 pounds...stocky."

Which compares to the man Orest Pena saw with Oswald in New Orleans -

where Odio's visitors said they had driven from e.g.

"A Mexican, about 28 years of age....5 foot eight inches in height...

weighing about 155 pounds with very hairy arms."

Richard Nagell and Col. William Bishop described the infamous 'Angel' as being 5 foot 10 inches, 160-165 pounds and of swarthy complexion.

Does anyone have handy the description that Sylvia Odio gave? I know Lawrence Howard has been suggested as a possible but he hardly fits this description.

Also, if anyone has Odio's description of 'Leopoldo', that would be appreciated as well.

Cheers,

James

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Another question regaurding this is , Why has there never been a "decent" desription of the men who visited Odio's house?, I find this strange because its a pretty important part of the investigation, yet we have no solid desription of these men.

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Hi, Larry. This is interesting to me--the identifying someone as "Mexican." I called my son in law who is Mexican and asked him to explain to me how someone could be called Mexican, when we know that in Mexico there are many skin colors and backgrounds, as anyone who lives out west would agree. Many Germans settled there and many parts of Latin America as in Cuba would have blonds with blue eyes. Mestizo would be a Mexican Indian lineage, a dark Mexican, Mullato a black and white Mexican, etc.

So, if someone identifies someone as a "big hairy Mexican" or whatnot, the assumption is that this person would have some notion of what a Mexican is. Via their language and behaviors. My Spanish teacher would admonish me, but from my experience, Latin Americans do consider Mexicans uniquely, esp in mannerisms and in language. Someone who spoke Spanish labeled this man "Mexican" or someone who knew the distinction firsthand, or someone who knew this man was in fact Mexican. Do you get the gist of my point? Sorry to ramble.

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Chris, I absolutely do and I tried to follow that line of reasoning in my book. I think it would probably consist of cultural elements including clothing especially soes and shirt, perhaps even haircuts, possibly gestures or slang and could extend to accent as well. Odio as a Cuban not long in the US would likely interpret any or all of these as suggesting a "non-Cuban". My suspicion is that this could mean a couple of things but suggests that the person being described had either spent time recently in Mexico....perhaps a Cuban going into exile from Cuba via Mexico City and spending a year or so there or perhaps the person's family was Cuban of Mexican extraction. The other option of course is that the person was actually an American of Mexican extraction and cultural background.

I tend to think the answer is one of the first options though and offer some possibilities in my "Up from Mexico" discussion.

-- Larry

Hi, Larry.  This is interesting to me--the identifying someone as "Mexican."  I called my son in law who is Mexican and asked him to explain to me how someone could be called Mexican, when we know that in Mexico there are many skin colors and backgrounds, as anyone who lives out west would agree.  Many Germans settled there and many parts of Latin America as in Cuba would have blonds with blue eyes.  Mestizo would be a Mexican Indian lineage, a dark Mexican, Mullato a black and white Mexican, etc. 

So, if someone identifies someone as a "big hairy Mexican" or whatnot, the assumption is that this person would have some notion of what a Mexican is.  Via their language and behaviors.  My Spanish teacher would admonish me, but from my experience, Latin Americans do consider Mexicans uniquely, esp in mannerisms and in language.  Someone who spoke Spanish labeled this man "Mexican" or someone who knew the distinction firsthand, or someone who knew this man was in fact Mexican.  Do you get the gist of my point?  Sorry to ramble.

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Thanks Larry and Christy.

It appears we have some common ground for Angel and that certainly doesn't fit Lawrence Howard.

I remember a description of Leopoldo as being tall with a receding hairline but for the life of me can't recall the source. It may have been Odio but I'm not sure.

The New Orleans encounter with Orest Pena may be significant here. Thanks for your replies.

James

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well, Larry I have to get your book. Email me details on ordering and I'll do that this week. I have no decent excuse-ha. My shelves are brimming but I'm I'm sure I'll be enlightened and can catch up on some things I've missed. I'd like the most current version as you were last working on errata sheets. Is this now complete?

My thoughts on this Mexican issue is your latter option: that if the description came from Odio she would be aware of mexican-ness because there was Spanish spoken that day. Cubans would know a non-Cuban. The physical attributes clothes and such would be secondary, IMHO, but does add more clues to the person. Language, dialect would be the big test. Size and hairiness aside I tend to believe that when someone calls a key character Mexican they know this from speaking to them, and picking up on the nuances and mannerisms, or knowing firsthand the persons origins, without that info, largely from language. My two cents of course. I'm off subject, where the heck were we? (wink)

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Chris, its a guessing game to a large extent. About all we can say for certain is there was something about them that made Sylvia think they were not Cubans, perhaps an American Spanish accent could have fooled her as easily as a Mexican Spanish accent? Clearly its hard to buy the fact that true Mexican nationals would have the war name and other information on her father that could only have come from deep inside the anti-Castro struggle. Her father advised her that nobody that could be legitimately calling on her would have it.

I'd certainly suspect Hall and Howard except for two things i) she and her sister were shown their photos to corroborate what the FBI told her was their admission it was them. An easy out for her with no risk but both of them independently siad it was not them and ii) it seems that Hall and Howard may actually have already been in California at the time....that one is open to interpretation though.

The wild card is that one of the folks I suspect may have come from an essentially Mexican family that had moved to Cuba so he might have had something of a different accent than she would expect....

In any event, you can order the book and the supplement through the Lancer.com site or the book through Amazon or from Andy W. If you go to Amazon do a book search for Larry Hancock. It will all be incorporated into a second edition sometime this year but that is some months away....uncertain how soon at this point.

well, Larry I have to get your book.  Email me details on ordering and I'll do that this week.  I have no decent excuse-ha. My shelves are brimming but I'm  I'm sure I'll be enlightened and can catch up on some things I've missed.  I'd like the most current version as you were last working on errata sheets.  Is this now complete?

My thoughts on this Mexican issue is your latter option: that if the description came from Odio she would be aware of mexican-ness because there was Spanish spoken that day. Cubans would know a non-Cuban.  The physical attributes clothes and such would be secondary, IMHO, but does add more clues to the person.  Language, dialect would be the big test.  Size and hairiness aside I tend to believe that when someone calls a key character Mexican they know this from speaking to them, and picking up on the nuances and mannerisms, or knowing firsthand the persons origins, without that info, largely from language.  My two cents of course.  I'm off subject, where the heck were we? (wink)

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Thanks Larry and Christy.

It appears we have some common ground for Angel and that certainly doesn't fit Lawrence Howard.

I remember a description of Leopoldo as being tall with a receding hairline but for the life of me can't recall the source. It may have been Odio but I'm not sure.

The New Orleans encounter with Orest Pena may be significant here. Thanks for your replies.

James

Written in 1966,one of 10 verses,Re Lorenzo and Alonzo.

If any would think that I jest

And fun at me would press

Of Kennedy's plotters I shall say

Two more lived here in East L.A.

To their war names they did resort

They are Leopoldo and Angelo in the

warren report.

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Mrs. Odio.

No, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your apartment?

Mrs. Odio.

No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest?

Mr. Liebeler.

So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky?

Mrs. Odio.

He was not as big as this man.

Mr. Liebeler.

Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

IS that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back spot on his head?

Mrs. Odio.

It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice that.

Mr. Liebeler.

This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?

Mrs. Odio.

He was thin--about 165 pounds.

Mr. Liebeler.

How tall was he, about?

Mrs. Odio.

He was about 3 1/2 inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

Shorter than Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler.

About how much, could you guess?

Mrs. Odio.

Five feet seven, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler.

So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

He weighed about how much, would you say?

Mrs. Odio.

170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.

Mrs. Liebeler.

Was it pock marked, would you say?

Mrs. Odio.

No; it was like it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight.

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Mrs. Odio.

They told me they were coming because of the assassination of President Kennedy, that they had news that I knew or I had known Lee Harvey Oswald. And I told them that I had not known him as Lee Harvey Oswald, but that he was introduced to me as Leon Oswald. And they showed me a picture of Oswald and a picture of Ruby. I did not know Ruby, but I did recall Oswald. They asked me about my activities in JURE. That is the Junta Revolutionary, and it is led by Manolo Ray. I told him that I did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in Cuba, and I had seen him (Ray) in Puerto recently, and that I knew him personally, and that I did belong to JURE. They asked me about the members here in Dallas, and I told him a few names of the Cubans here. They asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house.

Mr. Liebeler.

Who was it that you had seen in Puerto Rico?

Mrs. Odio.

Mr. Ray, I had seen. He was a very close friend of my father and mother. He hid in my house several times in Cuba.

So they asked me to tell him how I came to know Oswald, and I told them that it was something very brief and I could not recall the time, exact date. I still can't. We more or less have established that it was the end of September. And, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time I did, but I did not say anything to her. She came very excited one day and said, "That is the man that was in my house." And I said, "Yes; I remember."

Mr. Liebeler.

Tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when Oswald came to your house.

Mrs. Odio.

Well, I had been having little groups of Cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in JURE. They were going to open a revolutionary paper here in Dallas. And I told them at the time I was very busy with my four children, and I would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for Cuba. And I said I would help as much as I could.

Those are my activities before Oswald came. Of course, all the Cubans knew

that I was involved in JURE, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in Dallas and I was criticized because of that.

Mr. Liebeler.

Because of what now?

Mrs. Odio.

Because I was sympathetic with Ray and this movement. Ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is Castro without Castro. So at that time I was planning to move over to Oak Cliff because it was much nearer to my work in Irving. So we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister Annie, who at the time was staying with some America friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me.

It either was a Thursday or 'a Friday. It must have been either one of those days, in the last days of September. And I was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit.

Like I said, the doorbell rang .and she went over--she had a housecoat on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "Sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an American, the other two seem to be Cubans. Do you know them ?" So I put a housecoat on and stood at the door. I never opened my door unless I know who they are, because I have had occasions where Cubans. have introduced themselves as having arrived from Cuba and known my family, and I never know.

So I went to the door, and he said, "Are you Sarita Odio?" And I said, "I am not. That is my sister studying at the University of Dallas. I am Sylvia." Then he said, "Is she the oldest?" And I said, "No; I am the oldest." And he said, "It is you we are looking for." So he said, "We are members of JURE."

This at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and I asked them for their names. One of them said his name was Leopoldo. He said that was his war name. In all this underground, everybody has a war name. This was done for safety in Cuba. So when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names.

And the other one did give me his name, but I can't recall. I have been trying to recall. It was something like Angelo. I have never been able to remember, and I couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one I am exact on; I remember perfectly.

Mr. Liebeler.

Let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. Which one of the men told you that they were members of JURE and did most of the talking? Was it the American?

Mrs. Odio.

The American had not said a word yet.

Mr. Liebeler.

Which one of the Cubans?

Mrs. Odio.

The American was in the middle. They were leaning against the staircase. There was a tall one. Let me toll you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low Cubans, not educated at all. And one was on the heavier side and had black hair. I recall one of them had glasses, if I remember. We have been trying to establish, my sister and I, the identity of this man. And one of them, the tall one, was the one called Leopoldo. Mr. LIEBELER. He did most of the talking?

Mrs. Odio.

He did most of the talking. The other one kept quiet, and the American, we will call him Leon, said just a few little words in Spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "Hola," like that in Spanish.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened?

Mrs. Odio.

I had a chain.

Mr. Liebeler.

Was the chain fastened?

Mrs. Odio.

No; I unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of JURE, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. When I said no, one of them said, "We are very good friends of your father." This struck me, because I didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-Castro activities. He gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. I mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. And after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the American.

He said, "You are working in the underground." And I said, "No, I am sorry say I am not working in the underground." And he said, "We wanted you to meet this American. His name is Leon Oswald." He repeated it twice. Then my sister Annie by that time was standing near the door. She had come to see what was going on. And they introduced him as an American who was very much interested in the Cuban cause. And let me see, if I recall exactly what they said about him. I don't recall at the time I was at the door things about him.

I recall a telephone call that I had the next day from the so-called Leopoldo, so I cannot remember the conversation at the door about this American.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did your sister hear this man introduced as Leon Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

She says she doesn't recall. She could not say that it is true. I mean, even though she said she thought I had mentioned the name very clearly, and I had mentioned the names of the three men.

Mr. Liebeler.

But she didn't remember it?

Mrs. Odio.

No; she said I mentioned it, because I made a comment. This I don't recall. I said, "I am going to see Antonio Alentado," which is one of the leaders of the JURE here in Dallas. And I think I just casually said, "I am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." But I forgot about them.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did your sister see the men?

Mrs. Odio.

She saw the three of them.

Mr. Liebeler.

Have you discussed this with her since that time?

Mrs. Odio.

I just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. I just had to know.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did she think it was Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

Mr. Liebeler.

What kind of shirt was it, a white shirt?

Mrs. Odio.

No; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here.

Mr. Liebeler.

Almost to his elbows?

Mrs. Odio.

No; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he have a tie?

Mrs. Odio.

No tie.

Mr. Liebeler.

Was it a sport shirt, or working shirt?

Mrs. Odio.

He had it open. I don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. And the other one had a white undershirt. One of them was very hairy. Where was I? I just want to remember everything.

Mr. Liebeler.

You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?

Mrs. Odio.

She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

That was our first interview. We were very much concerned after that. We were concerned and very scared, because I mean, it was such a shock.

This man, the other one, the second Cuban, took out a letter written in Spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for Cuba and to help overthrow the dictator Castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in English and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results.

This same petition had been asked of me by Alentado who was one of the leaders of JURE, here in Dallas. He had made this petition to me, "Sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise. some money." I had told him too, I was very busy. So I asked and I said, "Are you sent by Alentado? Is this a petition?"

Mr. Liebeler.

You mentioned this Alentado who was one of the JURE representatives here in Dallas. Is that his full name?

Mrs. Odio.

His name is Antonio.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know a man by the name of George Rodriguez Alvareda?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Who is he?

Mrs. Odio.

He is another member of JURE. And at the time, a little after that, after December. I was more in contact with him, and I will tell you why later. They are all members of JURE here in Dallas, working hard.

And so I asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "No". And I said, "Do you know Eugeino?" This is the war name for_ _ _ _.That is his war name and everybody underground knows him as Eugenio. So I didn't mention his real name. He didn't know.

Mr. Liebeler.

Who did you ask this?

Mrs. Odio.

I asked these men when they came to the door--I asked if they had been sent by Alentado, became I explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Eugenio," and he said no. And I said, "Were you sent by Ray," and he said no. And I said, "Well, is this on your own?"

And he said, "We have just come from New Orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." This was all talked very fast, not as slow as I am saying it now. You know how fast Cubans talk. And he put the letter back in his pocket when I said no. And then I think I asked something to the American, trying to be nice, "Have you ever been to Cuba?" And he said, "No, I have never been to Cuba."

And I said, "Are you interested in our movement?" And he said, "Yes."

This I had not remembered until lately. I had not spoken much to him and I said, "If you will excuse me, I have to leave," and I repeated, "I am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me."

And he said, "Is he still in the Isle of Pines?" And I think that was the extent of the conversation. They left, and I saw them through the window leaving in a car. I can't recall the car. I have been trying to.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you know which one of the men was driving?

Mrs. Odio.

The tall one, Leopoldo.

Mr. Liebeler.

Leopoldo?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes; oh, excuse me, I forgot something very important. They kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost 9 o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. And two or three times they said the same thing.

They said, "We may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." And he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. I didn't ask where, and I had the feeling they were leaving for Puerto Rico or Miami.

Mr. Liebeler.

But they did not indicate where they were going?

Mrs. Odio.

The next day Leopoldo called me. I had gotten home from work, so I imagine it must have been Friday. And they had come on Thursday. I have been trying to establish that. He was trying to get fresh with me that night. He was trying to be too nice, telling me that I was pretty, and he started like that. That is the way he started the conversation. Then he said, "What do you think of the American?" And I said, "I didn't think anything."

And he said, "You know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in Cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." This was more or less--I can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. He told us we don't have any guts, you Cubans, because President Kennedy should have been assassinated filter the Bay of Pigs, and some Cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of Cuba actually. And I started getting a little upset with the conversation.

And he said, "It is so easy to do it." He has told us. And he (Leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and I wouldn't repeat it in Spanish. And he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to Dallas. Then he mentioned something more about Oswald. They called him Leon. He never mentioned the name Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler.

He never mentioned the name of Oswald on the telephone?

Mrs. Odio.

He never mentioned his last name. He alway. s referred to the American or Leon.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did he mention his last name the night before?

Mrs. Odio.

Before they left I asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again.

Mr. Liebeler.

But he did not mention Oswald's name except as Leon?

Mrs. Odio.

On the telephone conversation he referred to him as Leon or American. He said he had been a Marine and he was so interested in helping the Cubans, and he was terrific. That is the words he more or less used, in Spanish, that he was terrific. And I don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. It's been a long time and I don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you have an opinion at that time as to why Leopoldo called you back? What was his purpose in calling you back?

Mrs. Odio.

At first, I thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. The second time, it never occurred to me until I went to my psychiatrist.

I used to go to see Dr. Einspruch in the Southwestern Medical School, and I used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. And he relates that I mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these Cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought I was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. Anyhow, I did not know for what purpose.

My father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. You never know what to expect. I expect anything. Later on I did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination?

Mrs. Odio.

This first opinion that I mentioned to my psychiatrist, I did not give it a second thought. I forgot to tell Alentado about it; except 3 days later I wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. And later in December, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "I do not know any of these men. Do not get involved with any of them."

Mr. Liebeler.

You have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

Did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

Your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he?

Mrs. Odio.

He mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing I knew. I probably put an Americano came too, two Cubans with an American, and I gave the names of the Cubans.

Mr. Liebeler.

The copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as Odio Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. Odio.

He mentioned in the second paragraph, "You are very alone there in. Dallas. You don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends."

Mr. Liebeler.

I have initialed the letter and I would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit.

Mrs. Odio.

Yes, okay.

Mr. Liebeler.

The letter is in Spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in Spanish. Would you read that translation to us?

[stuff deleted]

------------------------------------[Con't]

Mrs.Odio.

[viewing film]. The man from the back with the glasses, I have seen him, the tall thin one. I would like to see the beginning where the man started coming in.

(Film was rerun.)

Mrs. Odio.

You see the one with the glasses, that thin man. He doesn't have a mustache, though.

Mr. Liebeler.

That third man there?

Mrs. Odio.

I will show you the back when he comes. The man over to the right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar.

Mr. Liebeler.

That one right over there?

Mrs. Odio.

Right; he has the same build.

Mr. Liebeler.

Can you back it up, John? Let me ask you this now, Sylvia. Did you recognize Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

Oh, yes; definitely. He made a television appearance. He looked much more similar than the pictures from New Orleans. He had the same mustache here.

Mr. Liebeler.

In the television appearance?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

What about in the pictures that you saw in the police station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

What about his voice? Did you recognize any similarity in his voice?

Mrs. Odio.

No. I don't know if it was because in the television it changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is hard to remember a voice after such a long time.

Mr. Liebeler.

After looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late in September was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

I have to be careful about that, because I have the same feeling that it was, but at the same time I have been looking at papers for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too much. I wish I could isolate the incident without remembering the other pictures. I have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not resemble him. It was not the Oswald that was standing in front of my door. He was kind of tired looking. He had a little smile, but he was sunken in in the face that day. More skinny, I would say.

Mr. Liebeler.

Well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

I don't have any doubts.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you want to run the picture once more, John?

Mrs. Odio.

What I am trying to establish is the man with the bald in the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this picture. But the men looked like Mexicans. They did not look like Cubans.

Mr. Liebeler.

Now we have here two pictures that have been made from films of this movie.

Mrs. Odio.

In that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing].

Mr. Liebeler.

You are referring to Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B; the man marked with the number 2?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right.

Mr. Liebeler.

That is the same man you have been talking about as looking similar?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right. But in the motion picture he looks thinner and I was trying to give you an idea of the man that I saw that day.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, who is the same man marked number 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, could have been the same man that was in your apartment with Oswald?

Mrs. Odio.

I think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment does not have any mustache.

Mr. Liebeler.

But otherwise, you think that he looks similar?

Mrs. Odio.

They have the same stature and same build and profile. I can say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled back on one side.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you want to run through it again, please?

(Film was rerun.)

Mrs. Odio.

The picture that resembled most, even though his hair was not so cut that day.

Mr. Liebeler.

You have referred to the individual that was walking out of the police station?

Mrs. Odio.

With his back.

Mr. Liebeler.

He had a mustache, and he had glasses on?

Mrs. Odio.

That day he did not have a mustache. He just had glasses, and he would take them off and on. Lee Oswald--Leon is fatter in this picture than what I actually saw him.

Mr. Liebeler.

You think this man standing on the corner, who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, is the same man you saw walking out of the police station?

Mrs. Odio.

No.

Mr. Liebeler.

It is a different man?

Mrs. Odio.

That's right. The one that is walking out of the door, kind of thin-looking individual, is darker.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is the man that was walking out of the police station?

Mrs. Odio.

You want me to point it out?

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. Run it back. I think we should indicate in the record there was a confusion in my mind, because I think it is pretty clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a different man than is in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B.

Mrs. Odio.

He looked greasy looking. I will tell you when [looking at film].

Mr. Liebeler.

Is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the door?

Mrs. Odio.

That is the picture I see. That picture is what I mean.

Mr. Liebeler.

Yes. There he is again [indicating individual with mustache leaving police station with Carios Bringuier and others depicted on film].

Mrs. Odio.

There he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't resemble it. It is the same build from the back, that thin neck.

Mr. Liebeler.

You think that that man we have Just seen in the picture resembles one of the men that was in your apartment?

Mrs. Odio.

From the back, because I remember that I put the light on on the porch, and I saw them get in the car. I wanted to be sure they were gone.

Mr. Liebeler.

But it is clearly not the same individual?

Mrs. Odio.

No, sir; clearly not the same. I am trying to see something, to put something in paper that would make me remember. [The film was rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as indicated above.]

Mr. Liebeler.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Odio.

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Thanks Larry. Yeah, when I said "mexican" I meant like Morales a Mex/American from here, being in D that day as opposed to Cuban. You're right just a small detail.

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Thanks Larry and Christy.

It appears we have some common ground for Angel and that certainly doesn't fit Lawrence Howard.

I remember a description of Leopoldo as being tall with a receding hairline but for the life of me can't recall the source. It may have been Odio but I'm not sure.

The New Orleans encounter with Orest Pena may be significant here. Thanks for your replies.

James

Written in 1966,one of 10 verses,Re Lorenzo and Alonzo.

If any would think that I jest

And fun at me would press

Of Kennedy's plotters I shall say

Two more lived here in East L.A.

To their war names they did resort

They are Leopoldo and Angelo in the

warren report.

Hi Harry,

Based, among other things, on the literary style and vocabulary, the slightly ironic sense of humor, the obvious high intelligence of the author, and the use of the word "here" (in the context of 'East L.A.'), my intuition tells me that this sonnet (?) was Penned (pardon the pun) by none other than one of my favorite contributors to this Forum, the one..., the only..., ... Gerry Patrick Hemming.....

Thomas

P.S. Do you know who wrote it? If so, pray tell...... (Thanks!)

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Thanks Larry and Christy.

It appears we have some common ground for Angel and that certainly doesn't fit Lawrence Howard.

I remember a description of Leopoldo as being tall with a receding hairline but for the life of me can't recall the source. It may have been Odio but I'm not sure.

The New Orleans encounter with Orest Pena may be significant here. Thanks for your replies.

James

Written in 1966,one of 10 verses,Re Lorenzo and Alonzo.

If any would think that I jest

And fun at me would press

Of Kennedy's plotters I shall say

Two more lived here in East L.A.

To their war names they did resort

They are Leopoldo and Angelo in the

warren report.

Hi Harry,

Based, among other things, on the literary style and vocabulary, the slightly ironic sense of humor, the obvious high intelligence of the author, and the use of the word "here" (in the context of 'East L.A.'), my intuition tells me that this sonnet (?) was Penned (pardon the pun) by none other than one of my favorite contributors to this Forum, the one..., the only..., ... Gerry Patrick Hemming.....

Thomas

P.S. Do you know who wrote it? If so, pray tell...... (Thanks!)

Hi, Thomas

Hall, Howard, Hemming, I and 'others' resided in the general areas of

East Los Angeles, California in the 1960's era. It is so that I did write this

verse, {from a total of ten verses}. Thanks.

Harry

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