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Tim Gratz

The Death of Marilyn Monroe

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Dawn wrote:

Interesting thread too. But the Kennedy's DID NOT kill MM. She was murdered to be sure. And it was to balme it on the Kennedy's. Was not a suicide.

Dawn

ps Tim: This will need its own thread, but do you think Castro killed RFK too, by chance:)

As I noted, the only other plausible theory seems to be that the Mafia killed MM to blame it on the Kennedys. This is set forth in "Doublecross".

I think it highly unlikely that Castro killed RFK.

In the unlikely event that someone killed JFK as retaliation for MM's murder, then it is possible that person also killed RFK. But I think a theory that either Kennedy was killed in retaliation for the death of MM is highly unlikeky.

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This post will deal with the toxicological evidence relating to the death of Mariilyn Monroe and other related issues.

The toxocological report of Robert J. Abernathy was issued August 4, 1962. It states that Mailyn Monroe's blood contained 4.5 milligrams per cent of barbituates. According to Wolfe, computer evidence indicates she would have had to swallow from 27 to 42 Nembutal capsules to reach a blood level of 4.5 mg per cent.

The blood also contained 8.0 milligram per cent chloral hydrate. She would have had to swallow from 14 to 23 chloral hydrate tablets to reach a percentage of 8.0 milligram per cent.

She also had 13.0 mg percent pentobarital in her liver. According to Wolfe, she would have had to swallow an additional 11 to 24 Nembutal tablets to reach this percentage.

Therefore, she would have had to swallow a minimum of 52 to a maximum of 89 capsules!

Coroner Noguchi was unable to find any capsule residue or any trace of refracticle crystals or concentrations of barbituates in `Monroe's stomach or intestines. According to Wolfe, no case has ever been reported in which a victim has had as high a blood percentage as Monroe and yet no refracticle crystals or concentrations found in the stomach or intestines.

Here is a quote from Wolfe:

"The information banks of forensic medicine further establish that there is no case on record of a fatal dose by oral ingestion involving such high concentrations in the blood of both pentobarbital and chloral hydrate. The victim dies before the fatal concentrations can approach such a high blood level. Monroe would have been dead before even 35 percent of the total barbituates had been absorbed from the digestive system into her bloodstream. It is not possible for the remaining 65 percent to have been absorbed from the digestive tract and to vanish without a trace, because when the heart stops beating, the blood stops circulatiing, and the bodily functions shut down, and absorption from the digestive tract into the bloodstream stops. The remaining penobarbital and chloral hydrate could not have entered the bloodstream by ingestion, suppository, enema infusion or any other absorption processs." Wolfe concludes the only possibility was injection of the barbituates by a needle injection, meaning a homicide.

There were other indicia the drugs were not orally ingested. When chloral hydrate is orally ingested there is a characteristic strong peralike odor, which was not present in Monroe.

There were unusual irregularities in the autopsy process. Noguchi had carefully prepared samples of Monroe's kidney, stomach, urines and intestines. But Abernathy's toxicology report contained no mention of these samples that could have demonstrated how the drugs entered her system. When Noguchi asked for these reports he discovered they had disappeared.

This is only a sample of the information in Wolfe's book. Some time later I will try to post regarding other irregularities and anomalies in the autopsy process.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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John wrote:

Well, I suppose it makes a change from Castro killed JFK. However, both theories are linked. They both come out of a right-wing Republican political campaigns

Yes, the "Castro did it" theory is supported by such prominent Republicans as LBJ, Jack Anderson, Johnny Rosselli and Joseph Califano.

John, can you name a single Republican campaign that tried to gain political points through either of these scenarios? I can just hear Bush in 1988: "Don't vote for Dukakis. He is a liberal tax and spend guy from Massaschusetts which is, after all, the birth state of Robert F. Kennedy who killed Marilyn Monroe." Or how about the GOP campaign for the Cuban exile vote in Florida: "Vote GOP; after all, Castro killed JFK."

How can either of these scenarios assist Republican campaigns? Even if the Kennedys killed Monroe (a theory I have not endorsed) how can that fact reasonably be used against ANY Democrat, even Teddy Kennedy? Makes no sense at all.

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An amplification of my previous post: no part of the "dark side of Camelot" can be fairly used to disparage a Democrat any more than Watergate can be fairly used to disparage a Republican. I do not recall any politician from either party using these events for partisan purposes.

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How can either of these scenarios assist Republican campaigns?  Even if the Kennedys killed Monroe (a theory I have not endorsed) how can that fact reasonably be used against ANY Democrat, even Teddy Kennedy?  Makes no sense at all.

Tim, Noguchi explains the absence of pills in her stomach, claiming she died over several hours and her body had the time to digest the capsules.

Secondly, within the left, there has been a consistant cry of what if? when thinking about life if the Kennedys had not been killed. There is a sense among many that America would be a better place today if they hadn't been murdered. As a result, almost since their deaths there has been a tremendous backlash against them, sponsored by the Republican Party, which has sought to demonize the Kennedys, and emphasize their failings, referring to JFK's love life as a security risk, and painting Bobby as both the bloodthirsty ringleader of the Castro attempts, and the calculated killer of Monroe. It's unbelieivably naive of you if you don't see the political motivation behind these "second assassinations of JFK and RFK," which reached their peak during the reign of Richard Nixon, and have been continued by the likes of Hersh and Russo.

I'm concerned this anti-Kennedy-itis has somehow infected you; your interest in who killed JFK seems directly proportional to how much of the motive can be linked to some awful deed by Bobby. The likelihood that JFK was killed for revenge for something Bobby did that was GOOD, like declaring war on the mob, just doesn't seem to catch your fancy. Or am I being unfair?

I suppose after Lincoln was killed the Dems tried to find ways to blame him for it, saying it was because he'd brutally abused the South, or that he'd been a tyrant. While that may be the way of history, I'd like to think we can rise above it.

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Stephen wrote:

By the way, doe's Wolfs book rely for any evidence on the following

people. Robert Slatzer. . .?

Stephen:

Slatzer is mentioned in the book. More on that later. But by the way Slatzer died a few weeks ago (at 77, not a "mysterious death"):

Robert Slatzer, claimed brief marriage to Marilyn Monroe, dies at 77

Associated Press

LOS ANGELES - Robert F. Slatzer, an author who wrote two books on Hollywood icon Marilyn Monroe and claimed a brief marriage to her, has died. He was 77.

Slatzer died March 28 at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center after a long illness, said his wife, Deborah Slatzer.

Slatzer in 1974's "The Life and Curious Death of Marilyn Monroe" claimed that he and Monroe secretly married in Mexico in 1952. He wrote that 20th Century Fox Studios head Darryl F. Zanuck ordered the marriage dissolved over concerns about Monroe's image.

The marriage documents were destroyed a few days later by burning the copy of the certificate filed in Mexican court, Slatzer later said.

There has been no independent confirmation of the marriage. Donald Spoto, in his 1993 book "Marilyn Monroe: The Biography," showed through canceled checks that Monroe was in Beverly Hills on the day Slatzer claims they were married.

Slatzer wrote a second book on Monroe, "The Marilyn Files," that was published in 1992.

Slatzer in the 1980s sent a letter to county supervisors arguing that Monroe was murdered and a grand jury should investigate her death. The grand jury rejected the request.

Monroe was found dead in her Brentwood home Aug. 5, 1962. The coroner's office determined the actress died from an overdose of barbiturates in what it called a probable suicide. Conspiracy theories have abounded since she died.

Slatzer, who was born in Marion, Ohio, came to Los Angeles in 1946 to work as a reporter covering Hollywood.

He also wrote the Hollywood biographies "Bing Crosby: The Hollow Man" and "Duke: The Life and Times of John Wayne."

Slatzer also was involved in numerous film and television projects and was director of the 1970 film "Bigfoot."

He is survived by his wife, sister-in-law and several nieces and nephews.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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Pat wrote:

As a result, almost since their deaths there has been a tremendous backlash against them, sponsored by the Republican Party, which has sought to demonize the Kennedys, and emphasize their failings, referring to JFK's love life as a security risk, and painting Bobby as both the bloodthirsty ringleader of the Castro attempts, and the calculated killer of Monroe. It's unbelieivably naive of you if you don't see the political motivation behind these "second assassinations of JFK and RFK," which reached their peak during the reign of Richard Nixon, and have been continued by the likes of Hersh and Russo.

Pat, to the best of my knowledge neither Hersh and Russo are Republicans. My impression (I could be wrong) is both are Democrats.

In my opinion, Kennedy's judgment, particularly in his womanizing, was extremely reckless. This is not just my view nor the view of Republicans. It is the view of most objective historians. The most recent Kennedy biography by Prof Michael O'Brien, which is not unsympathetic to him generally, clearly articulates the danger Kennedy put himself in by actions such as sharing a sex partner with a Mafia don. Had this fact been known, he probably would have been impeached. You must know that as well as I. Why do you think the Church Committee went to efforts to conceal Campbell's sex? But the proof that the Republicans were not using Kennedy's failures for partisan advantage is demonstrated that the Republican members of the Church Committee participated in the charade.

But I think you should recognize my opinions as being balanced, to-wit:

The assassination attempts against Castro, which I deplore, started in the Eisenhower administration. It is unclear whether Eisenhower was witting of them but they had bipartisan support within the CIA. I agree it is not clearly demonstrated that the Kennedy brothers were aware of the ongoing assassination attempts but most historians believe they were and I concur in that judgment. If they were aware of the plots, they should have stopped tem and I am not sure to what extent their bad judgment is mitigated by the fact the plots hatched in the previous administration.

Regardless of why Kennedy was assassinated, his killers should be brought to judgment. The fervency which one brings to researching the assassination ought not be dependent on one's agreement with Kennedy's policies or his life style. I remember Robert Charles-Dunne making this point once on a different thread. He emphasized that he would be as eager to track down the assassin of a Republican president whose policies he deplored as he is to solve the Kennedy assassination, and I take him at his word. I am not sure, however, whether the same sentiment would be true of all Kennedy fans.

With respect to the murder of Marilyn Monroe (I am convinced it was a murder) I will regret ot if I come to the conclusion that RFK participated in it. I would not like to see our history books record a famous Attorney General, and a martyred presidential candidate, as a murderer (or an adulterer for that matter).

But I frankly do not see a Republican campaign to gain partisan advantage from the failures of the Kennedys. If anything, I see Republican candidates using his continued popularity to gain support for their programs. e.g. tax cuts and a vigorous defense policy. And, of course, the current George Bush reached out to Sen Kennedy in support of his education policy.

That is the way I see it, anyway, but as always I value and appreciate your thoughts.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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Tim wrote: "I want to start a new thread in this section dealing with the death of Marilyn Monroe. I recently read a book called "The Last Days of Marilyn Monroe" by Donald Wolfe and it argues quite persuasively that Mnoroe's death was a murder rather than either accidental or a suicide; and that it was covered up"

Tim, this subject has long been the domain of charlatans, but here's my ten cents: Is it not the case that the lovely Marilyn was found dead in her own bedroom, and that the windows and door were all locked from the inside? If so, then Harry Houdini is your killer.

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C. S. Peirce

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Thanks to Robin for those great photos!

What would we do but for James and Robin?

Tim,

I know little about the subject matter of this thread but I agree---James and Robin can post all the photos of Marilyn they have and I won't complain at all.

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Mr. Carroll

I cannot believe that a man of your background could have authored anything this shallow. What proof have you of what was locked or unlocked or who or how many may have visited Marilyn's house that night. Have you ever considered that some false statements may have been made in this case? I certainly hope that you would never be called on to investigate anything that I had a vested interest in. I sign off as just another charlatan.

Charlatan Black

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Charles Black wrote "Have you ever considered that some false statements may have been made in this case?

Mr. Black: I have indeed considered the possibility that false statements have been made in this case. That is what prompted me to comment on this thread.

Ray

"Do not block the way of inquiry" C. S. Peirce

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Autopsy Report

External examination: The unembalmed body is that of a 36-year-old well-developed, well-nourished Caucasian female weighing 117 pounds and measuring 65-1/2 inches in length. The scalp is covered with bleached blond hair. The eyes are blue. The fixed lividitv is noted in the face, neck, chest, upper portions of arms and the right side of the abdomen. The faint lividity which disappears upon pressure is noted in the back and posterior aspect of the arms and legs. A slight ecchymotic area is noted in the left hip and left side of lower back. The breast shows no significant lesion. There is a horizontal 3-inch long surgical scar in the right upper quadrant of the abdomen. A suprapubic surgical scar measuring 5 inches in length is noted. The conjunctivae are markedly congested; however, no ecehymosis or petechiae are noted. The nose shows no evidence of fracture. The external auditory canals are not remarkable:. No evidence of trauma is noted in the scalp, forehead, cheeks, lips or chin. The neck shows no evidence of trauma. Examination of the hands and nails shows no defects. The lower extremities show no evidence of trauma.

Body cavity: The usual Y-shaped incision is made to open the thoracic and abdominal cavities. The pleural and abdominal cavities contain no excess of fluid or blood. The mediastinum shows no shifting or widening. The diaphragm is within normal limits. The lower edge of the liver is within the costal margin. The organs are in normal position and relationship.

Cardiovascular system: The heart weighs 300 grams. The pericardial cavity contains no excess of fluid. The epicardium and pericardium are smooth and glistening. The left ventricular wall measures 1.1 cm. and the right 0.2 cm. The papillary muscles are not hypertrophic. The chordae tendineac are not thickened or shortened. The valves have the usual number of leaflets which are thin and pliable. The tricuspid valve measures 10 cm., the pulmonary valve 6.5 cm., mitral valve 9.5 cm. and aortic valve 7 cm in circumference. There is no septal defect. The foramen ovale is closed. The coronary arteries arise from their usual location and are distributed in normal fashion. Multiple sections of the anterior descending branch of the left coronary artery with a 5 mm. interial demonstrate a patent lumen throughout. The circumflex branch and the right coronary artery also demonstrate a patent lumen. The pulmonary artery contains no thrombus. The aorta has a bright yellow smooth intima.

Respiratory system: The right lung weighs 465 grams and the left 420 grams. Both lungs are moderately congested with some edema. The surface is dark and red with mottling. The posterior portion of the lungs show severe congestion. The tracheobronchial tree contains no aspirated material or blood. Multiple sections of the lungs show congestion and edematous fluid exuding from the cut surface. No consolidation or suppuration is noted. The mucosa of the larynx is grayish white.

Liver and biliary system: The liver weighs 1890 grams. The surface is dark brown and smooth. There are marked adhesions through the omentum and abdominal wall in the lower portion of the liver as the gallbladder has been removed. The common duct is widely patent. No calculus or obstructive material is found. Multiple sections of the liver show slight accentuation of the lobular pattern; however, no hemorrhage or tumor is found.

Hemic and lymphatic system: The spleen weighs 190 grams. The surface is dark red and smooth. Section shows dark red homogeneous firm cut surface. The Malpighian bodies are not clearly identified. There is no evidence of lymphadenopathy. The bone marrow is dark red in color. Endocrine system: The adrenal glands have the usual architectural cortex and medulla. The thyroid glands are of normal size, color and consistency. Urinary system: The kidneys together weigh 350 grams. Their capsules can be stripped without difficulty. Dissection shows a moderately congested parenchyma. The cortical surface is smooth. The pelves and ureters are not dilated or stenosed. The urinary bladder contains approximately 150 cc. of clear straw-colored fluid. The mucosa is not altered.

Genital system: The external genitalia shows no gross abnormality. Distribution of the pubic hair is of female pattern. The uterus is of the usual size. Multiple sections of the uterus show the usual thickness of the uterine wall without tumor nodules. The endometrium is grayish yellow, measuring up to 0.2 cm in thickness. No polyp or tumor is found. The cervix is clear, showing no nabothian cysts. The tubes are intact. The right ovary demonstrates recent corpus luteum haemorrhagicum. The left ovary shows corpora lutea and albicantia. A vaginal smear is taken. Digestive system: The esophagus has a longitudinal folding mucosa. The stomach is almost completely empty. The contents is brownish mucoid fluid. The volume is estimated to be no more than 20 cc. No residue of the pills is noted. A smear made from the gastric contents and examined under the polarized microscope shows no refractile crystals. The mucosa shows marked congestion and submucosal petechial hemorrhage diffusely. The duodenum shows no ulcer. The contents of the duodenum is also examined under polarized microscope and shows no refractile crystals. The remainder of the small intestine shows no gross abnormality. The appendix is absent. The colon shows marked congestion and purplish discoloration. The pancreas has a tan lobular architecture. Multiple sections shows a patent duct.

Skeletomuscular system: The clavicle, ribs, vertebrae and pelvic bones show fracture lines. All bones of the extremities are examined by palpation showing no evidence of fracture.

Head and central nervous system: The brain weighs 1440 grams. Upon reflection of the scalp there is no evidence of contusion or hemorrhage. The temporal muscles are intact. Upon removal of the dura mater the cerebrospinal fluid is clear. The superficial vessels are slightly congested. The convolutions of the brain are not flattened. the contour of the brain is not distorted. No blood is found in the epidural, subdural or subarachnoid spaces. Multiple sections of the brain show the usual symmetrical ventricles and basal ganglia. Examination of and brain stem shows no gross abnormality. Following removal of the dura mater from the base of the skull and calvarium no skull fracture is demonstrated.

Liver temperature taken at 10:30 A.M. registered 89 F

Specimen: Unembalmed blood is taken for alcohol and barbiturate examination. Liver, kidney, stomach and contents, urine and intestine are saved for further toxicological study. A vaginal smear is made.

T NOGUCHI, M.D. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER 8-13-62

Crime Library:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murd...sy.html?sect=26

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QUOTE:

At 4:25 a.m. Sunday morning, August 5 Sergeant Jack Clemmons of the West Los Angeles Police Department got a call that he would never forget. Dr. Hyman Engelberg, Marilyn's personal physician, told him that she had committed suicide. When he and the backup police car that he had ordered arrived at Marilyn's home, there were three people Eunice Murray, Dr. Ralph Greenson and Dr. Hyman Engelberg.

They led Clemmons into the bedroom where her nude body was lying covered with a sheet and pointed out the bottles of sedatives. Donald Wolfe quotes Clemmons: "'She was lying facedown in what I call the soldier's position. Her face was in a pillow, her arms were by her side, her right arm was slightly bent. Her legs were stretched out perfectly straight.'" He immediately thought she had been placed that way. He had seen a number of suicides, and contrary to the common conception, an overdose of sleeping tablets usually causes victims to suffer convulsions and vomiting before they die in a contorted position."

The statements taken from the three individuals were very strange and Clemmons was convinced that he was not hearing the truth. They claimed that Marilyn's body had been discovered some four hours earlier, but that they could not contact the police until 20th Century Fox's publicity department had given them permission.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murd.../7.html?sect=26

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I remember seeing a documentary in which a telephone conversation between a reporter and Dr. Ralph Greenson was recorded.

In the phone call the reporter asked Greenson how Marilyn had died, to which he gave a curious answer.

He said " ask Bobby Kennedy "

Why would he say that, if the Kennedy's were not involved. ??

Very strange.

Edited by Robin Unger

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