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Having been asked (by email) certain questions related to the Italian Carcano Rifle which was utilized in the assassination of President Kennedy, I have decided it best to share whatever knowledge (or lack thereof) is in my possession on this subject.

Many persons have, over the years, had questions related to this weapon, and not unlike CE399, the issue of the rifle requires it's own independent study.

Unless one fully understands and appreciates the varients in which this weapon was produced, as well as the numbers of these weapons produced over the 50+ years of it's production, there is little chance that they will appreciate the invalidity of attempting to absolutely tie the assassination rifle to LHO and his order of a weapon from Klein's Sporting Goods.

Along this avenue lies the simple issue is that there is absolutely no factual evidence to support that the rifle which was utilized to assassinate President JFK, has any bearing whatsoever on any reportedly rifle which LHO is claimed to have ordered and received from Klein's Sporting Goods.

And, for the other side of this coin, there is more than ample documentation and evidence to demonstrate that not only is the TSDB/C2766 not the weapon sent to LHO in response to his order form, but also that it physically can not be the same rifle.

1. Why the Carcano rifle?

The answer to this question appears to lie in the same realm of LHO and his "leave a scent here" "leave a scent there" actions and activities.

According to independent research by a person who apparantly had no understanding of the information, Klein's parent company was PEPSI.

In event this information proves to be totally factual, then therein lies the rational and reason for having utilized the Carcano.*

a. Order the weapon as sold by a company who has had direct ties to CIA type operations, to include the illicit opium trade of SE Asia.

b. Utilize ammunition which was acquired under a US Government Contract, which to date is still not known the exact purpose of.

c. And thereafter observe, watch, and enjoy the actions as those of the CIA attempt to "run for cover" in an attempt to CYA related to this weapon.

*It should be noted that LHO also attempted to purchase a rifle directly from Robert McKeon, gunrunner.

Had McKeon sold LHO his personally owned rifle, which LHO specifically requested by brand and type, then most probably, JFK would have been shot with this much better quality rifle.

Which would have pointed the finger at Fidel Castro, due to McKeon's association with and having provided arms to Castro.

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Having been asked (by email) certain questions related to the Italian Carcano Rifle which was utilized in the assassination of President Kennedy, I have decided it best to share whatever knowledge (or lack thereof) is in my possession on this subject.

Many persons have, over the years, had questions related to this weapon, and not unlike CE399, the issue of the rifle requires it's own independent study.

Unless one fully understands and appreciates the varients in which this weapon was produced, as well as the numbers of these weapons produced over the 50+ years of it's production, there is little chance that they will appreciate the invalidity of attempting to absolutely tie the assassination rifle to LHO and his order of a weapon from Klein's Sporting Goods.

Along this avenue lies the simple issue is that there is absolutely no factual evidence to support that the rifle which was utilized to assassinate President JFK, has any bearing whatsoever on any reportedly rifle which LHO is claimed to have ordered and received from Klein's Sporting Goods.

And, for the other side of this coin, there is more than ample documentation and evidence to demonstrate that not only is  the TSDB/C2766 not the weapon sent to LHO in response to his order form, but also that it physically can not be the same rifle.

1.  Why the Carcano rifle?

The answer to this question appears to lie in the same realm of LHO and his "leave a scent here" "leave a scent there" actions and activities.

According to independent research by a person who apparantly had no understanding of the information, Klein's parent company was PEPSI.

In event this information proves to be totally factual, then therein lies the rational and reason for having utilized the Carcano.*

a.  Order the weapon as sold by a company who has had direct ties to CIA type operations, to include the illicit opium trade of SE Asia.

b.  Utilize ammunition which was acquired under a US Government Contract, which to date is still not known the exact purpose of.

c.  And thereafter observe, watch, and enjoy the actions as those of the CIA attempt to "run for cover" in an attempt to CYA related to this weapon.

*It should be noted that LHO also attempted to purchase a rifle directly from Robert McKeon, gunrunner.

Had McKeon sold LHO his personally owned rifle, which LHO specifically requested by brand and type, then most probably, JFK would have been shot with this much better quality rifle.

Which would have pointed the finger at Fidel Castro, due to McKeon's association with and having provided arms to Castro.

Pepsi was of course behind the assassination in their brutal power struggle for world domination with Coca-Cola.

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Under the general assumption that any serious researcher is aware of the facts related to the Carbine/Short Rifle controversy of the assassination rifle, the simple facts are:

1. All documents, to include the order form and stock identification number serve to indicate that LHO ordered the 36-inch long Carcano Carbine, commonly referred to as the TS (Truppe Speciale) Carbine.

2. The Rifle with which JFK was assassinated, and which was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB, is the 40-inch long Short Rifle (Fucile Corto).

An attempt has been made to indicate that this is just some clerical/administrative error in which LHO was shipped the 40-inch Short Rifle due to Kleins Sporting Goods having acquired these rifles in lieu of the 36-inch Carbines.

To support this, The WC & Kleins gave us an order form in which this original order of 91TS Carcano Rifles (36-inch long Carbines) was later changed to reflect an order for Beretta Terni M91/38 Carcano rifles.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0358b.jpg

Which is all well and good with the exception:

1. Exactly when was the last time that anyone saw such an order as this which was filled out so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing?

2. Exactly what type order is it that in the same document ordered 400 of the 91 TS Carbines, yet in and on the same order form changes this to 100 supposedly different rifles.

3. According to the order form, Kleins was to pay the sum of $7.50 per rifle for the 91 TS Carbines.

Production of these rifles began in 1898 and continued up and until the change of 1938. Therefore, Crescent Firearms could have supplied rifles which were of an extreme age in compliance with this order.

Yet, the supposed change in this order, now specified that the rifles were in fact those rifles made in 1938 or thereafter, which in fact represented the newest of the last Carcano rifles produced, and yet the cost of these newer rifles was only $1.00 more than the older 91 TS Carbines.

So, for this additional $1.00 cost, Kleins Sporting goods not only supposedly received a much newer rifle, they also received the 40-inch Short Rifle, which is a much better gun than the 36-inch length TS Carbine which was the supposed original order.

4. In addition to receiving this much better and much newer Short Rifle, according to the order form, it specified that these weapons had to be from the "Beretta Terni" plant.

This error in completion of the "new" order form gives away the lack of knowledge on the part of the person who filled out the form.

The Beretta Plant at Terni was merely one of several plants which made the Carcano rifle in many different variants of it's models.

To state that one is ordering "only" those weapons made at the "Beretta Terni" plant, would mean that whoever is shipping the rifles would be required to look through each and every rifle and thereafter "cull" out any of those identical models which were made at other arms plants throughout Italy.

After all, I am in possession of a "Beretta Gardon" 1940 6.5mm TS Carcano, which is certainly as good as a "Beretta Terni" identical rifle.

And, since Beretta merely was the owner of these two specific plants, and this stamp is merely on the rifle barrel and does not constitute where each of the various parts of the rifle may have been made, to specify on an order form that the rifles must come from a specific plant of manufacture is completely asinine.

Whoever completed this apparantly "after the fact" order form, made the mistake of having read "Beretta Terni" off the rifle which was removed from the sixth floor of the TSDB. This error was thereafter transposed onto the new order form as if anyone would even attempt to comply with such a request.

5. The order form, (change) effectively says to ignore our previous order for 400 of the 36-inch long 91 TS Carbines (pre-1938) and change this order to 100 of the Beretta Terni 91/38 Carcano's.

What is a 91/38 Carcano (M91/38)?

In 1938, the Italian Government began to produce the Carcano in a caliber of 7.35mm. (This is also the beginning of the fixed rear site on the weapon)

The Carcano was produced in this caliber in each of various models which includes:

a. The Cavalry Carbine(M38)

b. The 36-inch long TS Carbine(M38)

c. The 40-inch long Short Rifle (M38)

The 7.35 mm TS Carbine was known to have been manufactured at two separate plants.

The 7.35 mm Short Rifle was known to have been manufactured at 4 seperate plants.

After start of WWII, the Italian Government decided against the change in rifle caliber and most of these weapons were thereafter refitted with new barrells in the 6.5mm calliber.

With the cease in production of the 7.35mm caliber rifles (actually only rifle barrells), The Italian government produced only 6.5mm caliber weapons for it's use in the war.

Those weapons, of the 6.5mm caliber, which were produced after the reversion from the temporary 7.35mm change, are referred to as the Model 91/38 weapons.

In this regard, there is:

a. M91/38 Cavalry Carbine in 6.5mm.

b. M91/38 TS (36-inch length) Carbine in the 6.5mm.

c. M91/38 Short Rifle (40-inch length) in the 6.5mm.

Therefore, when one refers to a M91/38, they refer only to those 6.5mm caliber weapons which were produced after the change from 7.35mm caliber, back to the original 6.5mm caliber which the weapon first came out with when production approval began in 1891.

The "change" in the Kleins/Crescent Firearms order form merely states M91/38.

It DOES NOT state that this supposed change was for deletion of an order for 400 of the model 91 TS Carbines, and to change this order to 100 M91/38 Short Rifles.

As another point, many of the true Model 91/38's, be they of the Cavalry Carbine; the TS Carbine, or the Short Rifle, still have the matching serial numbers on the rifle stock, which identically match the serial number of the rifle barrel.

This is of course not always the case as some barrells obviously got changed out.

In the case of those M38 (7.35 mm versions), when produced, these weapons also had matching serial numbers on the stock and barrells. When the weapons were changed to the 6.5mm versions, this "original" status was lost.

Collectors of military rifles such as the Carcano are extremely happy when they find an original condition weapon which has the same serial number on the stock as on the rifle barrel.

One of the six various weapons which I acquired for research is an "original" M91/38 TS Carbine which contains the serial number C 5522 on the barrell and the same C 5522 stamped into the stock.

It was manufactured in 1940 at the Beretta Gardone plant.

However, my 1939 Beretta Terni 6.5mm Short Rifle does not have the same serial numbers on the stock and barrell.

This serves to indicate that the weapon is most probably one of the early Model 38 7.35mm caliber rifles which was converted back to the 6.5mm caliber after start of the war.

In conclusion, the Kleins Sporting Goods/Crescent Firearms order form provides absolutely no proof that this order changed an order for the 36-inch length TS Carbine to an order for the 40-inch Short Rifle.

Taken as written, the form merely states that Kleins no longer wanted the older model TS Carbines, and wanted the newer model which had the fixed rear sight.

There is absolutely no reference to this which would serve to indicate that anyone would take this to represent a change in the actual model of the rifle ordered.

M91/38 is merely a 6.5mm caliber weapon which was produced after reversion back to this caliber from the 1938 M38 change to the 7.35mm caliber weapons.

And, whoever completed this document had severe cerebral rectal inversion by indicating that they wanted ONLY weapons which were produced by the Beretta Plant at Terni, Italy.

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The Klein's Sporting Goods order to Crescent Firearms actually raises more questions than it answers.

First, it should be noted that the FBI did not trace down the sale of the weapon through Klein's/through the Klein's add as found in American Rifleman Magazine.

Instead, for some unknown and unexplained reason,* the FBI went directly to Crescent Firearms and in fact traced the "serial number" of the weapon from Crescent Firearms to Klein's Sporting Goods.

Thereafter, the FBI then showed up at Klein's Sporting Goods with the exact information that rifle serial# C2766 had been shipped from Crescent Firearms to Klein's Sporting Goods.

*It is reported that the FBI supposedly learned by word of mouth that Crescent Firearms was a huge importer of these weapons and that this would be a good starting point in attempting to locate where the weapon was puchased.

This may sound good, however, when one consideres the numbers of weapons which passed through and out the doors of Crescent Firearms, the question arises as to exactly how was it that the specific weapon, serial# C2766 was so rapidly located as having been shipped to Klein's Sporting Goods, that by the late evening of 11/22/63, the FBI was at Klein's looking for the rifle order information.

Considering the numbers of these weapons which had been brought into this country from/through other sources, going directly to Crescent Firearms to locate any specific serial numbered weapon would certainly appear to be a "shot in the dark".

In regards to the Klein's Sporting Goods order form to Crescent Firearms, the following items are noted:

1. The form utilizes a "Code" for ordering of specific items.

This Code, not unlike the Code Number which LHO utilized to order the weapon from Klein's, would have to be some form of Code Number as provided by Crescent Firearms to weapons dealers.

2. The Code numbers ordered on this form are as follows:

a. Code# 1245---------200 @ $8.50 each

b. Code# 1243---------100 @ $8.50 each

c. Code# ????----------400 @ $7.50 each

It is also specifically noteworthy to point out that the block for Code# 1243 has completely been "lined out" down the entire length of the order form, only to thereafter have the number "100" written over the top of this line.

Yet, the number/quantity 200 for Code# 1245 has been left to remain in place.

That I am aware of, there has never been any admission into evidence of any documentation which demonstrates what these codes represent as ordered from Crescent Firearms.

3. Located at the bottom right corner of the order form has been entered information which is reportedly the tracking of rifle C2766 from Crescent Firearms to Klein's Sporting Goods.

This tracking is presented in the form of a receipt from Lifschultz Fast Freight for 10 packages on invoice No. 3041342.

The Lifschultz Fast Freight invoice is available at:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0359a.gif

This invoice indicates receipt of the 10 CR (cartons) or CS (crates) Guns or Rifles on 2-21-63, and thereafter, "JM" entered on the Klein's order form the receipt of these 10 packages as well as the Lifschultz Freight shipping form NO. 3041342.

4. Thereafter, the receipt of the billing amount of $850.00 for the 100 rifles received was entered on the line on the right hand side of the Klein's order form.

This entry does not provide any indication as to whether the receipt was for ordered Code# 1245 in which is indicated an order for 200 of the items was ordered, or whether it was for ordered Code# 1243 for which 100 of the items was ordered.

To resolve which of the Crescent Firearms Code numbers Klein's reportedly received, one must go to the Crescent Firearms Billing Invoice.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0363a.jpg

Here, we find that Crescent Firearms, on 2/7/63, billed Klein's Sporting Goods for 100 each T 38 6.5 It. Rifles at a cost of $8.50 each.

Directly adjacent to the order date in the billing invoice is found the "Order No. 1243" which apparantly correlates to the same number on the Klein's requisition/order form.

With this information, it would now appear that on 2/7/63, Crescent Firearms shipped to Klein's Sporting Goods, 100 6.5mm Italian rifles which Crescent Firearms identified as being model/identification "T 38" in response to Klein's order# 1243.

And, the receipt for this shipment/order was thereafter duly entered onto the Klein's order form by "JM" (James Mueller) who signed for receiving the shipment via Lifschultz Fast Freight, and thereafter entered the date of shipment receipt as well as the shipping invoice number onto the Klein's ordering form.

Interestingly enough, the date of the Klein's order form is 1/15/62 as demonstrated at the top right-hand portion of the form.

The FBI secured this information from Klein's on/about 11/22/63, which is of course some 22 months after the date of the order from Klein's to Crescent Firearms.

However, it is noted that no record of receipt is demonstrated for Code# 1245, which according to this form, was not effectively cancelled, nor is there any record of receipt of the 400 items @ $7.50 each as listed in the last form of the ordering code block and for which the code number is not legible on the form.

So, one should question???, did Crescent Firearms merely forget about shipping any other portions of this order?

Did Klein's Sporting goods, by some coincidence, insure that receipt for the Code 1243 was entered, yet neglect to enter receipt for any other item ordered on this form.

And lastly, exactly what proof exists that demonstrates that the Crescent Firearms designation for Code# 1243, which was apparantly the "T-38" 6.5mm Italian Rifle, is the ordering code for and designation for a Model 91/38 6.5mm Carcano Short Rifle.

This question is especially relevant when it is taken into consideration that the ordering form and code/stock/order number which LHO sent to Klein's Sporting Goods was for the 36-inch long Carcano "TS" Carbine.

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Hi Tom

I don't have the expertise or knowledge of firearms that you evidently possess so I cannot question your interesting discussion of the Italian Carcano Rifle which allegedly was utilized in the assassination of President Kennedy. However, one small part of your post I wished to discuss--

Under the general assumption that any serious researcher is aware of the facts related to the Carbine/Short Rifle controversy of the assassination rifle, the simple facts are:

1.  All documents, to include the order form and stock identification number serve to indicate that LHO ordered the 36-inch long Carcano Carbine, commonly referred to as the TS (Truppe Speciale) Carbine. . . . The WC & Kleins gave us an order form in which this original order of 91TS Carcano Rifles (36-inch long Carbines) was later changed to reflect an order for Beretta Terni M91/38 Carcano rifles.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0358b.jpg

Which is all well and good with the exception:

1.  Exactly when was the last time that anyone saw such an order as this which was filled out so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing? . . . .

Well, Tom, you might well be right that it does seem suspicious that the order was made out "so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing."

However, I would like to point out that in my experience in handling historical documents written by hand, much depends on the particular writer.

I have examined documents written by military men, politicians, secretaries, clerks, officials of fraternal societies, etc., and believe me the neatness of the handwriting depends solely on who does the writing. Some people, usually clerks or secretaries, are punctiliously neat and everything they write is neat and legible.

So, no, I don't find it particularly glaring or evidential that the writing on this order happens to be neatly written.

The trick though here would be to find out if this document is the exception among other orders written by WC & Kleins during this period to find out if this might be an after-the-fact order written by someone other than a WC & Kleins employee. That is, if the "suspicious" neatness of the block lettering makes it stand out from other provably period documents prepared by the WC & Kleins company.

Best regards

Chris George

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Hi Tom

I don't have the expertise or knowledge of firearms that you evidently possess so I cannot question your interesting discussion of the  Italian Carcano Rifle which allegedly was utilized in the assassination of President Kennedy. However, one small part of your post I wished to discuss--

Under the general assumption that any serious researcher is aware of the facts related to the Carbine/Short Rifle controversy of the assassination rifle, the simple facts are:

1.  All documents, to include the order form and stock identification number serve to indicate that LHO ordered the 36-inch long Carcano Carbine, commonly referred to as the TS (Truppe Speciale) Carbine. . . . The WC & Kleins gave us an order form in which this original order of 91TS Carcano Rifles (36-inch long Carbines) was later changed to reflect an order for Beretta Terni M91/38 Carcano rifles.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0358b.jpg

Which is all well and good with the exception:

1.  Exactly when was the last time that anyone saw such an order as this which was filled out so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing? . . . .

Well, Tom, you might well be right that it does seem suspicious that the order was made out "so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing."

However, I would like to point out that in my experience in handling historical documents written by hand, much depends on the particular writer.

I have examined documents written by military men, politicians, secretaries, clerks, officials of fraternal societies, etc., and believe me the neatness of the handwriting depends solely on who does the writing. Some people, usually clerks or secretaries, are punctiliously neat and everything they write is neat and legible.

So, no, I don't find it particularly glaring or evidential that the writing on this order happens to be neatly written.

The trick though here would be to find out if this document is the exception among other orders written by WC & Kleins during this period to find out if this might be an after-the-fact order written by someone other than a WC & Kleins employee. That is, if the "suspicious" neatness of the block lettering makes it stand out from other provably period documents prepared by the WC & Kleins company.

Best regards

Chris George

Perhaps in one manner or another, we will get back to the "block" printing.

However, there are far more substantial indications of the "fallacies" of the rifle ordering than this.

Tom

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Hi Tom

I don't have the expertise or knowledge of firearms that you evidently possess so I cannot question your interesting discussion of the  Italian Carcano Rifle which allegedly was utilized in the assassination of President Kennedy. However, one small part of your post I wished to discuss--

Under the general assumption that any serious researcher is aware of the facts related to the Carbine/Short Rifle controversy of the assassination rifle, the simple facts are:

1.  All documents, to include the order form and stock identification number serve to indicate that LHO ordered the 36-inch long Carcano Carbine, commonly referred to as the TS (Truppe Speciale) Carbine. . . . The WC & Kleins gave us an order form in which this original order of 91TS Carcano Rifles (36-inch long Carbines) was later changed to reflect an order for Beretta Terni M91/38 Carcano rifles.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0358b.jpg

Which is all well and good with the exception:

1.  Exactly when was the last time that anyone saw such an order as this which was filled out so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing? . . . .

Well, Tom, you might well be right that it does seem suspicious that the order was made out "so nice and neatly with perfect block letter printing."

However, I would like to point out that in my experience in handling historical documents written by hand, much depends on the particular writer.

I have examined documents written by military men, politicians, secretaries, clerks, officials of fraternal societies, etc., and believe me the neatness of the handwriting depends solely on who does the writing. Some people, usually clerks or secretaries, are punctiliously neat and everything they write is neat and legible.

So, no, I don't find it particularly glaring or evidential that the writing on this order happens to be neatly written.

The trick though here would be to find out if this document is the exception among other orders written by WC & Kleins during this period to find out if this might be an after-the-fact order written by someone other than a WC & Kleins employee. That is, if the "suspicious" neatness of the block lettering makes it stand out from other provably period documents prepared by the WC & Kleins company.

Best regards

Chris George

Perhaps in one manner or another, we will get back to the "block" printing.

However, there are far more substantial indications of the "fallacies" of the rifle ordering than this.

Tom

If one rotates the form 90 degrees and flips it horizontally then what appears to be typed on the rear of the form (or the rear of the page that the photocopy was taken from) the word RUBY in typewriter courier font.

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Many persons have argued the premise that LHO ordered the 36-inch length TS Carbine, and therefore, this is what he should have received from Klein's.

However, the Klein's documents claim that the weapon shipped to LHO, serial# C2766 was one of 100 rifles which were 40.2-inchs in length (Short Rifle), and of which C2766 was one of these rifles which was ultimately shipped to LHO.

In support of this claim, the WC & Kleins have provided the order; shipping; & receiving invoices (previously referenced), as well as the packing list for each of the ten crates of rifles shipped. These packing list were completed by Crescent Firearms and included with each carton/crate of rifles shipped and which constitutes the listing by serial number of the 10 weapons shipped in each of the 10 cartons/crates which were shipped by Lipschultz Freight and received by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Waldman Exhibit No. 3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol21_0359b.htm

Adequate evidence to dispute the claim of the 100 rifle shipment having been the 40.2--inch length Short Rifle has always been available from these documents.

Just that not unlike many other aspects of the evidence, no one has taken the time to evaluate it.

The Shipping Invoice, as completed by Lipschultz Fast Freight, (the shipping company), indicates a total weight for the shipment as having been 750 pounds.

With 10 crates/cartons, this would equate to a weight of 75 pounds per carton.

Therefore, 10 of whatever rifle was shipped, plus the weight of the shipping carton/crate/package which Crescent Firearms packed the 10 weapons in, weighed in at an even 75 pounds.

Unloaded weight for the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 Short Rifle (40.2 inch length) is 7.6279 pounds per rifle.

Therefore, 10 of these weapons, by themselves, without any shipping carton or crate, would weigh in at 76.279 pounds.

And, 100 of these weapons alone, without the weight of the shipping crates/cartons, would weigh in at 762.79 pounds.

12.79 pounds more than was the total shipping weight of 750 pounds which included the rifles and the cartons/crates/containers in which the rifles were packed.

However, the unloaded weight of the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 TS Carbine (36 inch length) is 7.0988 pounds per weapon.

10 rifles would equate to 70.988 pounds, and 100 of these rifles would equate to a weight of 709.88 pounds of actual rifle.

Thereby leaving approximately 40.12 pounds of weight for the shipping cartons/crates/containers.

Or, a weight of 4.012 pounds of weight for each of the 10 cartons in which the weapons were shipped.

Based upon the independent and seperate weighing of the weapons and their carton/crate/container, by an independent third party, (Lifschultz Freight), these 100 weapons could not have been the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 Short Rifle, as the weight of the rifles alone would have exceeded the total shipping weight of the rifles and cartons/crates/containers as determined by the shipping company and billed to and paid by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Math Counts!

Tom

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This information was reported by John Armstrong in HARVEY&LEE on pages

447-48.

Jack :huh:

Then, not unlike the perfectly printed order form, the subject is worth a continued discussion.

It would be appreciated if anyone who has the "HARVEY & LEE" information would provide what Mr. Armstrong had to say in regards to the shipping weight issue.

The subject of the various weights for M91TS Carbines; M91/38TS Carbines(6.5mm): M91/38 Short Rifles(6.5mm); and M38 Short Rifles manufactured in the 7.35mm version and later changed to the 6.5mm version, gets highly confusing.

This is further confused in the fact that many of what is reportedly the 91TS Carbine (36-inch long/6.5mm), are not actually true carbines.

They are in fact referred to as the M91/24 which came about as a result of taking many of the true rifles (50.8 inches long/long rifles) and cutting them down to the 36-inch TS Carbine configuration.

Thereby making what initially appears as a standard TS Carbine.* & **

*There are many methods in which to determine if a barrel is in fact an original M91TS barrel as opposed to an old M91 (long)Rifle which has been cut down.

Visibly, one can look at the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle end and physically see the difference.

More definitive, one can take a micrometer and measure the barrel outside diameter at the front area of the foreward sight.

Most true M91TS Carbines will measure at .525 to .526 thousandths of an inch at this location.

Most of the "cut down" rifles which were made into 36-inch long carbines, will measure at .518 to .520 thousandths of an inch outside barrel diameter at this location.

A simple method of determination of this, assuming that the weapons have their original rear sights, is to merely look at the rear sight.

The rifle, made for longer range fire, had an extremely long rears sight base which is approximately 3 and 3/8 ths inches long.

The true M91TS sight base measures approximately 1 and 1/2 inches in length.

**This modification of cutting down old long rifles and conversion to the 36-inch length 91/24 Carbine is responsible for much of the myth as regards the lack of accuracy for the Carcano weapon.

The older model Rifle/Long Rifle had a barrel length of 30.7 inches, with what is referred to as a right-hand/progressive gain twist/rifling.

Therefore, the closer the bullet came to exiting the end of the rifle, the more spin was imparted to the bullet, which is an essential element of stable flight for the round.

When these rifles were converted to Carbines, the barrel was shortened to the standard barrel lenght of the TS Carbine.

That being, 17.7 inches in length barrels.

Therefore, the forward most 13 inches of the rifle barrel was cut and removed in order to make the barrel now correspond to the TS Carbine length.

In doing this, that portion of the rifle barrel in which the exiting bullet gained the most spin due to the "progressive gain/twist" had now been cut and removed from the weapon.

The loss of this critical portion of the rifle now created a weapon in which inadequate spin was imparted to the bullet/round as it passed through the now shortened rifle barrel. Thereby creating a somewhat unstable bullet flight path.

Even were one to take an absolutely new/never been fired Carcano Rifle with the progressive gain twist, and cut and remove the foreward 13 inches of the barrel,

the weapon could not be made to hold an accurate shot pattern grouping.

Tail wobble on the bullet due to inadequate spin/rotation would create an unstable flight pattern for which no compensation could predict or correct for.

As a final means of verification of whether a Carbine rifle barrel is in fact an original TS Carbine as opposed to the cut-down Long Rifle, one can look for the small oval "rework" stamp which is almost always stamped into the rifle barrel in the vicinity of the barrel breech/serial number/manufacturing plant stamp.

The one version of M91/24 Carbine (Long Rifle cut down to 36-inch Carbine) was actually a Rifle (long rifle) which was made in 1917 at "Terni", and was thereafter cut down to make the later model 91/24 Carbine.

(no doubt, the above is slightly confusing)

It was meant to state: "The one version of M91/24 Carbine (Long Rifle cut down to 36-inch Carbine) which is in my possession, was actually-----------

All of which adds to the invalidity of serial numbers as being a means to trace virtually any Carcano rifle.

Tom

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis

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Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack :huh:

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This information was reported by John Armstrong in HARVEY&LEE on pages

447-48.

Jack :huh:

Then, not unlike the perfectly printed order form, the subject is worth a continued discussion.

It would be appreciated if anyone who has the "HARVEY & LEE" information would provide what Mr. Armstrong had to say in regards to the shipping weight issue.

The subject of the various weights for M91TS Carbines; M91/38TS Carbines(6.5mm): M91/38 Short Rifles(6.5mm); and M38 Short Rifles manufactured in the 7.35mm version and later changed to the 6.5mm version, gets highly confusing.

This is further confused in the fact that many of what is reportedly the 91TS Carbine (36-inch long/6.5mm), are not actually true carbines.

They are in fact referred to as the M91/24 which came about as a result of taking many of the true rifles (50.8 inches long/long rifles) and cutting them down to the 36-inch TS Carbine configuration.

Thereby making what initially appears as a standard TS Carbine.* & **

*There are many methods in which to determine if a barrel is in fact an original M91TS barrel as opposed to an old M91 (long)Rifle which has been cut down.

Visibly, one can look at the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle end and physically see the difference.

More definitive, one can take a micrometer and measure the barrel outside diameter at the front area of the foreward sight.

Most true M91TS Carbines will measure at .525 to .526 thousandths of an inch at this location.

Most of the "cut down" rifles which were made into 36-inch long carbines, will measure at .518 to .520 thousandths of an inch outside barrel diameter at this location.

A simple method of determination of this, assuming that the weapons have their original rear sights, is to merely look at the rear sight.

The rifle, made for longer range fire, had an extremely long rears sight base which is approximately 3 and 3/8 ths inches long.

The true M91TS sight base measures approximately 1 and 1/2 inches in length.

**This modification of cutting down old long rifles and conversion to the 36-inch length 91/24 Carbine is responsible for much of the myth as regards the lack of accuracy for the Carcano weapon.

The older model Rifle/Long Rifle had a barrel length of 30.7 inches, with what is referred to as a right-hand/progressive gain twist/rifling.

Therefore, the closer the bullet came to exiting the end of the rifle, the more spin was imparted to the bullet, which is an essential element of stable flight for the round.

When these rifles were converted to Carbines, the barrel was shortened to the standard barrel lenght of the TS Carbine.

That being, 17.7 inches in length barrels.

Therefore, the forward most 13 inches of the rifle barrel was cut and removed in order to make the barrel now correspond to the TS Carbine length.

In doing this, that portion of the rifle barrel in which the exiting bullet gained the most spin due to the "progressive gain/twist" had now been cut and removed from the weapon.

The loss of this critical portion of the rifle now created a weapon in which inadequate spin was imparted to the bullet/round as it passed through the now shortened rifle barrel. Thereby creating a somewhat unstable bullet flight path.

Even were one to take an absolutely new/never been fired Carcano Rifle with the progressive gain twist, and cut and remove the foreward 13 inches of the barrel,

the weapon could not be made to hold an accurate shot pattern grouping.

Tail wobble on the bullet due to inadequate spin/rotation would create an unstable flight pattern for which no compensation could predict or correct for.

As a final means of verification of whether a Carbine rifle barrel is in fact an original TS Carbine as opposed to the cut-down Long Rifle, one can look for the small oval "rework" stamp which is almost always stamped into the rifle barrel in the vicinity of the barrel breech/serial number/manufacturing plant stamp.

The one version of M91/24 Carbine (Long Rifle cut down to 36-inch Carbine) was actually a Rifle (long rifle) which was made in 1917 at "Terni", and was thereafter cut down to make the later model 91/24 Carbine.

All of which adds to the invalidity of serial numbers as being a means to trace virtually any Carcano rifle.

Tom

For whatever reason, this failed to completely come through the first time around.

It is from the book: SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD, Ninth Edition, by W.H.B. Smith,

as revised by Joseph E. Smith, formerly of Army Materials Command.

This portion of the book which deals with the Carcano provides a short and quick overview of the weapon,.

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis

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Tom...the Armstrong research on Kleins and the rifle runs about 50 pages,

far too much to scan. He discovered the weight discrepancy about 10 years ago.

His research is highly recommended. As I recall, he shows the WC Kleins documents

were forgeries...but don't take my word...it has been several years since I read

the book.

Jack :)

Well!

Anyone that can devote 50 pages to this subject fully has done his homework and deserves to have his works purchased if for no other reason than to check out the Carcano information.

Although having heard of the work, as well as some of the "Harvey & Lee" claims, I personally never bothered with it as:

1. I ceased to expend funds attempting to resolve issues on this subject, long ago.

2. I was under the misguided impression that the book dealt with only the subject of the title and was unaware of other aspects which would certainly make the book worth review.

Tom

P.S. For those unaware of it there were most assuredly two M. Oswalds.

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Mr. Eisenberg: Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons?

Mr. Simmons: I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.

Mr. Eisenberg: And how long have you held this position?

Mr. Simmons: This position, about four years, and previous employment has been in these laboratories.

Mr. Eisenberg: How long have you been working, Mr. Simmons, in the area of evaluation of weapons?

Mr. Simmons: Since 1951, in various classes of weapons. Since 1957, however, I have had the responsibility for the laboratories on small arms.

Mr. Simmons: Most of our evaluations have been associated with military rifles.

Mr. Eisenberg: How long altogether have you spent in this area?

Mr. Simmons: Some experience beginning from about 1953. I have been continously concerned with this since 1957.

Mr. Eisenberg: But your specialty is in the evaluation of weapons systems, including military rifles, and you have been engaged in this for 13 years, as to all weapons systems, and since 1953 as to--

Mr. Simmons: Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Simmons: Well, our examination of rifles is not the detailed engineering, design experiment which a gunsmith or a rifle expert as such would concern himself with. We are more concerned with establishing a framework by which we can put numbers to the performance of military rifles in tactical employment. And this means that for a specific--specific classes of weapons, we have had to establish, for example, round-to-round dispersion, the accuracy with which they can be employed and the wounding power of the projectiles.

Mr. Simmons: Yes, we fired this weapon from a machine rest for round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in the test, and the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard deviation of dispersion is .29 mil.

Mr. Eisenberg: Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles?

Mr. Simmons: Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing.

Mr. Eisenberg: Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?

Mr. Simmons: Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round-to-round dispersion is on the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.

Mr. McCloy: Your are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?

Mr. Simmons: The M-14.

____________________________________________________________________

WC Testimony of Ronald Simmons, Chief of the Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistic Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army.

My personal "military rifle" experience began with the old M1-Garand and progressed through the M-14 and to the M-16, and rest assured, this experience has demonstrated that the Carcano M91/38 6.5mm Short Rifle is as accurate as any of these weapons at the shorter ranges of less than 300 meters.

Weapon accuracy as relates to the Carcano and the JFK assassination, is a "non-issue" for anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the assassination rifle.

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The mere fact that the WC readily accepted testimony that manufacture's stamp marks on a rifle which had not been production for some twenty years was of a National Italian "Secret" category is indicative of the extreme to which the Commission went in order to NOT admit into evidence documentation relative to the manufacture of the Carcano rifle which would have totally disproven other portions of the testimony of Robert Frazier.

The last time that I checked, we did win WWII, and in so doing, defeated Italy who was the ally of NAZI Germany.

In this regard, it is highly unlikely that anything related to the manufacture of Italy's weapons was of any national secret.

Virtually any good Military Weapons Historian could have provided better and more factual testimony in regards to Carcano manufacture than what was elicited by the WC and their non-specific questioning of FBI Agent Frazier.

In this regard, the statements of FBI Agent Robert Frazier, relative to the assassination weapon being the only such weapon to possess the serial number C 2766, is not only an unprovable statement, it is also a total misrepresentation of all other factual documentation which clearly demonstrates that there is, without any doubt, multitudes of Carcano rifles which bear the identical C2766 serial number, as well as other Carcano M91/38 6.5mm Short Rifles which would also bear this identical serial number.

Since the WC is currently dealing with only the assassination weapon, this would be the logical and best place to begin.

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