The Rifle

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/c...o9141/index.asp

More from alt. assassination.jfk

Quite simply put!

We are dealing with the conflicts between:

1. An add which was for a Model 91/24* 36-inch length Carbine

2. A Model 91/38 Short Rifle that was recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

*I see that I previously referenced the "cut-down" Long Rifles which were made into Carbines as being the Model 91/28.

This is one of those old age/CRS problems.

The Model 91/28 was a true and seperate version of the 36-inch length Carbine.

The Model 91/24 Carbine is an old Long Rifle (Model 91) that has been cut down in length.

What LHO ordered (according to the Klein's order form) was a Model 91/24 36-inch length Carbine which was cut down from an old Long Rifle.

In 1924, the Italian Government took several thousands of their old "Long Rifles" which had the progressive gain twist, and cut approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel.

In so doing, they made a weapon which would not impart the necessary spin to the bullet to keep it in stable flight.

Thus, one of the extremely common misconceptions in regards to the Carcano accuracy ability.

So, literally thousands of 36-inch length Carbines in the Model 91/24, in multitudes of serial numbers, from any number of arms plants, now existed.

In addition to these 36-inch length weapons, the Carcano was also produced in what was a true Carbine, which was known as the TS (Truppe Special) Carbine, thereby creating additional thousands of 36-inch length Carbines, with a multitude of various serial numbers, from a multitude of plants.

Add to this the fact that the Italian Government also produced a Cavalry Carbine, which had the same exact barrel length as the standard issue TS Carbine, and now one has several additional thousand barrels which will fit either the Model 91/24 or the true TS Carbine.

Then, in 1928, the Italian Government made a change and thereafter began to produce the Model 91/28 Carbine, which again placed thousands more of this 36-inch length weapon into the already severely crowded market of the Carbine World.

With this already crowded market, barrel changeout on many of these weapons has occurred in which the barrels either came from war stocks or from Armorer locations which had the additional capabilities to cut down ANY Long Rifle barrel and thereafter install this cut-down barrel onto the Carbine frame.

So! Within the realm of what LHO actually ordered from Kleins, (the Model 91/24 useless Carbine), which is also what Kleins paperwork indicates was shipped to him, serial numbers on ANY of the 36-inch length Carbines is for all practical purposes completely irrelevant unless accompanied by the Model Number of the weapon, as well as the Plant of Manufacture and the year.

Now, as to the Model 91/38 6.5mm Carcano which was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

If one reviews the Carcano Website, they will find only four factories listed as having produced the Model 91/38, as well as listing only the year 1940 & 1941 for year of manufacture.

What few realize is the fact that initial production of the Model 38 Short Rifle (7.35mm caliber version) was done with barrels of the 6.5mm caliber in which the barrels were re-worked and the weapon was rechambered to fit the 7.35mm round.

Now, at this point!

from Richard Hobbs meager "Database" the following can be shown:

1. He has no Model 91 Long Rifles with the "C" prefix to the serial number.

2. However, he does have a Model 91/24 Carbine (which was once a Long Rifle), which bears he serial number C6016 which was manufactured at the ROMA plant in 1918.

3. In addition, he also shows a Cavalry Carbine, serial# C5385 manufactured at the Terni Plant in 1936

All of which clearly demonstrates that the "C" prefix could easily be found on a "Long Rifle"; a Model 91/24 Carbine; or a Cavalry Carbine in which the rifle barrel is the same as a standard Carbine rifle barrel.

Thereafter, we enter into the Model 91/38 (6.5mm world and find) that:

1. Richard's database includes only ONE single Model 91/38 Short Rifle in the "C" prefix serial numbers, made at Terni.

2. Richards database includes FOUR Model 91/38 TS Carbines which have the "C" prefix serial numbers, with weapons being produced at: Beretta; Beretta Gardone; & FNA Brescia. (I might add that I am also in possession of one of these Carbines, produced at the Beretta Gardone Plant, serial# C5522.

From there, one should visit Richard's Model 38 Short Rifle (7.35mm caliber) database as it too will provide additional information regarding the "C" prefix on serial numbers,

1. Here, one will find FIVE of the Short Rifles in the 7.35mm caliber which bear serial numbers with the "C" prefix.

All of which were produced at the Terni Plant.

What is truly nice about this information is that of the four weapons, three were produced in 1938, the first year of manufacture, and the fourth weapon was produced in 1939.

Furthermore, of the four weapons, two are a "perfect match" between the serial number on the stock as compared with the serial number on the rifle barrel.

Indicating ORIGINAL/non-rebarreled weapons.

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C6788---------------Rifle Barrel

C6788---------------Rifle Stock

Terni

1938

XVII

+++++++++++

38 Fucile Corto

7.35x51 Carcano

C8437------------Rifle Barrel

C8437-----------Rifle Stock

RE Terni

1939

XVII

================================================================================

===

Original production of the Model 38 Short Rifle ( 7.35mm caliber ) began in 1938 (not suprisingley).

However, there were no 7.35mm rifle barrels, and the original production of these weapons was accomplished by taking Long Rifle barrels which had standard gain twist, cutting the barrels down in length, slight re-boring, and rechambering.

Thus converting a 6.5mm Long rifle Barrel to the 7.35mm Short Rifle/Model 38 weapon.

Therefore, virtually any "ORIGINAL" production Model 38 (7.35mm) Short Rifle which was produced in 1938, was done so with a surplus 6.5mm Long Rifle (surplus) barrel which was cut down in length and modified to fit the 7.35mm round.

Thereby confirming that somewhere, a large storgage of Long Rifle Barrels in the 6.5mm Caliber, of which many must have possessed the serial number prefix "C", existed.*

For Hobbs database to have four of these "C" prefix numbers located, there must be a considerable number of barrels with that prefix.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

++++

From my own personal research I have now absolutely confirmed the manufacture of one of the 7.35mm Short Rifles (Original Production) from a Long Rifle Barrel made in 1936., thereby serving to indicate that virtually any Long Rifle Barrel, made at any of the various arms plants, can be cut down and made to fit the Short Rifle.

This would of course also include the later production Model 91/41 Long Rifles.

So!

Absolutely ANY Long Rifle Barrel, manufactured at ANY arms plant, can be cut down in length to form a version of the 36-inch length carbine. (Model 91/24). Thereby compounding and confusing serial number tracebility.

Multitudes of true TS Carbines were produced with the "C" prefix to the serial number, with FOUR different arms plants issuing this serial number prefix.

At least one ORIGINAL ISSUE pre-1938 Calvary Carbine issued by the Brescia arms plant is known to exist.

A whole lot of Model 38 Short rifles in the 7.35mm caliber are known to exist which carry the "C" prefix to the serial number, and since these are "Early Date Issue", they are undoubtedly made from surplus Long Rifle barrels which carried this prefix, in which the barrels were modified to the first issue 7.35mm weapons.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And, this does not even take into considration the number of potentially other "barrel changeout", or for that matter the number of weapons in ALL makes and models which may have been initially manufactured with the serial number 2766, in which someone could "stamp" a prefix "C".

Now!

Are you starting to get the picture in regards to the impossibility to trace a Carcano weapon merely by it's serial number?

Are you ?

Edited September 13, 2008 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Other than;

1. Barrel changeouts by local Italian armorers.

2. Modification to Long Rifles in which they were cut down to Short Rifle length by Italian armorers.

3. A "stockpile" of 6.5mm Long Rifle barrels somewhere that were first utilized to make the 7.35mm Short Rifle.

4. Barrel changeouts by those who acquired large stocks of the weapons and were assemblying them from parts for sale to the retail market.

5. The continued availability of Carcano parts from the Italian Police, up and until the 1980's.

This about covers the rest.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.htm

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Posted at: alt. assassination. jfk

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

("Changed to Beretta Terni M91/38 EFF")>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As one who has a birth certicicate which states(by it's dates) that I was 18 years old, when in fact I was 15 years old, I truthfully have little trust in "perfectly" executed documents.

And, as stated, were I to accept as fact everything written, then I should be looking for a "T-38" which happens to be a Jap Rifle.

Lastly, although the "Terni" plant happens to be one of the plants of manufacture of the Model 91/38, there is no such reference in any known place (other than this questionable form) to a "Beretta Terni" weapon, and in fact, no such weapon is known to exist with that stamping.

*First off, the arms manufacturer BERETTA made all of the Carcano's. The "Terni"; Brescia; Gardone: etc; etc; etc; merely references the name of the city in which the Beretta Plant which produced the weapon was located. (All of which controlled their own serial number issue, I might add)

The main Beretta Arms Plant was located at Gardone,/aka Gardone Val Trompia, the home of the Beretta family.

This happens to be the ONLY plant which was allowed to stamp the word "BERETTA" on those weaons which it manufactured, as it was a means of demonstration that this weapon came from the "true" Beretta home plant/aka the first plant to produce arms.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardone_Val_Trompia

It is located in the Trompia valley. It is well-known for being the base of the major small arms manufacturer Fabbrica d'Armi Pietro Beretta.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although reportedly produced at only three plants*,6.5mm Model 91/38 Carcano's have been found with the following markings:

1. TERNI

2. RE TERNI (same plant as #1 above)

3. BRESCIA

4. FNA BRESCIA (same plant as #3 above)

5. BERETTA GARDONE

6. BERETTA (same plant as #5 above)

7. GARDONE VAL TROMPIA (apparantly same plant as #5 & #6 above)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now! In event that you and or Von Pein believe that Kleins's ordered ONLY "BERETTA TERNI" Carcano rifles, then good look finding one with that stamping.*

*One would most probably have to make their own, as no such stamping ever existed.

Furthermore, if one is stupid enough to believe that Klein's was so insistent in their order that they wanted ONLY Model 91/38's that were produced ONLY in the TERNI factory, then one would most probably believe in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy as well.

Lastly, in event that you want to know why Klein's ceased to order to Model 91/24 (junk) carbines which LHO ordered, and which Klein's paperwork demonstrates was sent to him, then ask and, provided that I am not having a "bad hair day", then I will also explain the reasoning behind the order change.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

For those who may be unaware, I have been having one of my usual discussions over on the McAdams sites regarding the non-valid nature of serial numbers on Carcano weapons.

Of course, Von Pein and a few others, who quite obviousl know litttle, wish to dispute this statement.

I have taken the time to correlate just a few of the Klein's serial numbers from their purported packing listing, with the extremely small "DataBase" which Richard Hobbs and others have accumulated and can be found on the "Carcano" website.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/database/

A short review of merely these first 22 listings will demonstrate the complete invalidity of serial numbers on carcano weapons.

When any "Long Rifle" can be cut down to either Short Rifle or Carbine length, and any model Carbine (Cavalry Carbine; TS Carbine; 91/24 Carbine; 91/28 Carbine) is completely interchangable within their respective barrel length grouping, this becomes impossible to trace by serial numbers along.

Hopefully, this listing will serve some purpose, and in event that someone has nothing better to do in life, then they can complete the listing for the entire 100 weapons on the Klein's shipping manifiests.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Let the games begin!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/alba.htm

================================================================================

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you recall what Oswald said, about that?

Mr. ALBA - No; not other than a general discussion of the trajectory and the feet per second, and et cetera, and the general accuracy elimination--I mean elimination of the accuracy of the gun cutting the barrel off.

Mr. LIEBELER - What is the effect of cutting the barrel?

Mr. ALBA - On the accuracy of a rifle; none.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you tell Oswald that?

Mr. LIEBELER - Did he seem surprised?

Mr. ALBA - Not that my memory would--if my memory-would serve me correctly; no.

================================================================================

Limited effect on a "standard gain twist" barrel.

On a "progressive gain twist" barrel, one may as well have a shotgun and shoot for accuracy with it when some 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel is removed.

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[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mark;

Of some interest:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...en&lnk=raot

Keep going!

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/9124ts.html

1. The "Carbine Ad" from which the rifle was purportedly ordered, in

fact shows the Model 91/24 Carbine.

Which is in fact an old Long Rifle which beginning in the year 1924,

thousands were cut back in length.

Approximately 13 inches from the forward end of the barrel was removed

to make the weapon the length of the regular TS Carbine. However,

these weapons were highly inaccurate due to "progressive gain" twist

rifling, and the removal of the final portion of the barrel which

ultimately imparted the necessary spin to the bullet to maintain full

stability in flight.

2. That the Ad shows the Model 91/24 is an "absolute" and can be

readily determined by looking at the rear sight which had a much

longer elevation/range adjustment than did the true TS Carbines.

http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/m91ts.html

===========================================================================­====

=======

The Ad for the "40" inch rifle is an ad that Holmes found and produced

as being the weapon, and unless one were a complete Expert on the

Carcano weapon in 1963, there is no way in which one could ascertain

from the Backyard Photo exactly what weapon it is that LHO is observed

holding.

Unless of course one had seen the weapon prior! As in being opened

and examined at the Post Office!

Hope that helps some.

Tom

[Mark Knight]

Tom,

A few weeks ago I discovered a video on YouTube that shows a 91/38 Carcano 6.5 mm being fired at various ranges out to 420 yards...I hope the link above is the one [i'm on dial-up today, so it would take forever to pull up and watch the video]. At any rate, I recall the person narrating the video mentions that the 6.5 mm bullet drops 11 inches at 420 yards.

BUT...knowing that the 91/38 can be accurate at 400+ yards, that should completely squelch the argument that it wasn't accurate enough to use on three shots of less than 100 yards. The cut-down 91/24--the rifle that was shipped to Oswald--probably wouldn't have been accurate at 40 yards, but the 91/38--the rifle that was recovered at the TSBD--was clearly capable of what it is alleged to have done, and a lot more.

As to the links you posted...I'm of the opinion that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes may have been guilty of manufacturing evidence, especially the money order that apparently had never been cashed or deposited atr ANY bank, yet which was used to "prove" that Oswald ordered the rifle...the 91/24 "shortened" rifle that somehow, some way, one day morphed into a 91/38 short rifle, one with the same serial number as the 91/24 Klein's shipped.

I'm certainly not saying that Oswald didn't ALSO receive a 91/38 from somewhere; it just wasn't the gun that was originally shipped by Klein's, although the WC went to a great deal of trouble to pass the two rifles off as being one and the same. Maybe Oswald also received the 91/38 through the mail, and maybe inspector Harry Holmes did inspect it prior to delivery. It's just that there is no evidence on record to support that conjecture, AFAIK.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

A few weeks ago I discovered a video on YouTube that shows a 91/38 Carcano 6.5 mm being fired at various ranges out to 420 yards...I hope the link above is the one [i'm on dial-up today, so it would take forever to pull up and watch the video]. At any rate, I recall the person narrating the video mentions that the 6.5 mm bullet drops 11 inches at 420 yards.

BUT...knowing that the 91/38 can be accurate at 400+ yards, that should completely squelch the argument that it wasn't accurate enough to use on three shots of less than 100 yards. The cut-down 91/24--the rifle that was shipped to Oswald--probably wouldn't have been accurate at 40 yards, but the 91/38--the rifle that was recovered at the TSBD--was clearly capable of what it is alleged to have done, and a lot more.

As to the links you posted...I'm of the opinion that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes may have been guilty of manufacturing evidence, especially the money order that apparently had never been cashed or deposited atr ANY bank, yet which was used to "prove" that Oswald ordered the rifle...the 91/24 "shortened" rifle that somehow, some way, one day morphed into a 91/38 short rifle, one with the same serial number as the 91/24 Klein's shipped.

I'm certainly not saying that Oswald didn't ALSO receive a 91/38 from somewhere; it just wasn't the gun that was originally shipped by Klein's, although the WC went to a great deal of trouble to pass the two rifles off as being one and the same. Maybe Oswald also received the 91/38 through the mail, and maybe inspector Harry Holmes did inspect it prior to delivery. It's just that there is no evidence on record to support that conjecture, AFAIK.

"It's just that there is no evidence on record to support that conjecture, AFAIK."

Are you sure?

[Mark Knight]

What we know--or think we know--is basically what the WC laid out as the evidence tying the Carcano to LHO. But it only ties ONE rifle to Oswald...NOT two. As best I can determine by my analysis of the evidence, it shows LHO ordering and receiving one 91/24...which means that the 91/38 that was in custody may not have fired any magic bullets, but it certainly has become a magic rifle, changing from a highly INaccurate 91/24 with the progressive-twist rifling cut off, to a 91/38, with conventional rifling, a different length barrel, and as the video shows, a highly accurate rifle.

So I haven't seen any evidence where the 91/38 came from...Hemming hinted to me that it came out of Montreal, but there's simply no chain of evidence linking a 91/38 to Oswald. So whether Oswald bought, stole, traded for, or was simply given the 91/38...we really don't know for certain where it came from, and there's no direct evidence tracing the gun to Oswald...unlike the [now-missing] 91/24.

Or at least that's MY understanding of the evidence.

[Mark Knight]

The silence is deafening.

The evidence cited by the WC, as twisted as it is, only ties Oswald to a Carcano model 91/24, which was a cut-off version of a rifle with a progressive twist barrel. The rifle recovered in the TSBD was a model 91/38, and there is no evidence on record explaining how Oswald might have come into possession of a 91/38.

SO...since the 91/38 is most likely the murder weapon...but it's not the same rifle the WC has "proved" was received from Klein's by Oswald...as Desi used to say to Lucy, somebody's "got some 'splainin' to do." Did Oswald obtain the 91/38? From whom? When? How? Or if the 91/38 wasn't Oswald's, why was the serial number "coincidentally" the same as the 91/24 that Oswald DID receive?

The easiest thing for the WC to do...was what they did. They "tracked" the 91/24 from Klein's to Oswald, and then attempted to pass off the 91/38 as the same weapon. Tom has pointed out that the rear sight on the 91/24 is different than the one on the 91/38. So if Oswald had taken the 91/24 and changed out the barrel to one from a 91/38--and, assuming the 91/38 barrel was unstamped [without a serial number], had stamped the same C2766 serial number into the 40-inch barrel--there would still be the matter of the rifle in custody having the 91/24 rear sight, as I understand the evidence before me. And from what I've read, the rear sight on the rifle in custody seems to be the correct one for a 91/38.

So...where did the 91/38 rifle come from? And did it ever actually come into Oswald's possession? Tom, help me out here...you seem to have hinted that Harry Holmes may have inspected a package containing the 91/38; is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The silence is deafening.

The evidence cited by the WC, as twisted as it is, only ties Oswald to a Carcano model 91/24, which was a cut-off version of a rifle with a progressive twist barrel. The rifle recovered in the TSBD was a model 91/38, and there is no evidence on record explaining how Oswald might have come into possession of a 91/38.

SO...since the 91/38 is most likely the murder weapon...but it's not the same rifle the WC has "proved" was received from Klein's by Oswald...as Desi used to say to Lucy, somebody's "got some 'splainin' to do." Did Oswald obtain the 91/38? From whom? When? How? Or if the 91/38 wasn't Oswald's, why was the serial number "coincidentally" the same as the 91/24 that Oswald DID receive?

The easiest thing for the WC to do...was what they did. They "tracked" the 91/24 from Klein's to Oswald, and then attempted to pass off the 91/38 as the same weapon. Tom has pointed out that the rear sight on the 91/24 is different than the one on the 91/38. So if Oswald had taken the 91/24 and changed out the barrel to one from a 91/38--and, assuming the 91/38 barrel was unstamped [without a serial number], had stamped the same C2766 serial number into the 40-inch barrel--there would still be the matter of the rifle in custody having the 91/24 rear sight, as I understand the evidence before me. And from what I've read, the rear sight on the rifle in custody seems to be the correct one for a 91/38.

So...where did the 91/38 rifle come from? And did it ever actually come into Oswald's possession? Tom, help me out here...you seem to have hinted that Harry Holmes may have inspected a package containing the 91/38; is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

"is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

Would "educated supposin"/aka educated guess serve to shed some light?

1. As a psuedo-defector to the Soviet Union who had returned to the US, LHO would absolutely have been a target of our own Domestic Surveillance Program.

Which included the "Mail Watch" of virtually anyone who received anything such as those FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA; ACLU; American Communist Party; letters from the Soviet Union; etc; etc; etc; items through the US Postal System.

Therefore, one could assume, as if fact, that LHO's Post Office boxes were being "watched" if for no other reason than that mail which he received. Not to even mention the "defector" to the Soviet Union status.

From indication of the "games played", LHO was of course fully aware of the probabililty that he was being kept track of through the US Mail system.

2. JEH was in a battle to stop the rampant sale of "Male Order" weapons with no true form of ID offered, and an ongoing effort in Congress was being mounted to cease this practice.

Klein's Sporting Goods was one of those companies being investigated for such practices, which would have of course placed it on a "Mail Order" surveillance watch as well.

3. So!

A. Individual who had purportedly attempted to defect to the Soviet Union.

B. Individual who received "subversive" literature from a multitude of various organizations, through the US Postal Service.*

C. Weapon ordered through the mail/US Postal Service from a firm that was on a "Watch List" and was in fact the subject of Congressional Hearings. And which company purportedly has indirect ties to CIA Contract organizations.

====================================================================

With that stated, on can be virtually assured, that not unlike Timothy McVey, LHO's actions and location were being closely monitered.*

*And I might add, LHO played the game quite well as the US Postal Service as well as the FBI seldom knew exactly where LHO was located/staying.

Therefore, at times, LHO's games required him to stand up, wave his hands, and Yell Here I Am, look at me down here in New Orleans, passing out FPCC posters.

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

Look at me, I am getting a passport and going to Mexico!

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

====================================================================

[David G. Healy]

The silence is deafening.

The evidence cited by the WC, as twisted as it is, only ties Oswald to a Carcano model 91/24, which was a cut-off version of a rifle with a progressive twist barrel. The rifle recovered in the TSBD was a model 91/38, and there is no evidence on record explaining how Oswald might have come into possession of a 91/38.

SO...since the 91/38 is most likely the murder weapon...but it's not the same rifle the WC has "proved" was received from Klein's by Oswald...as Desi used to say to Lucy, somebody's "got some 'splainin' to do." Did Oswald obtain the 91/38? From whom? When? How? Or if the 91/38 wasn't Oswald's, why was the serial number "coincidentally" the same as the 91/24 that Oswald DID receive?

The easiest thing for the WC to do...was what they did. They "tracked" the 91/24 from Klein's to Oswald, and then attempted to pass off the 91/38 as the same weapon. Tom has pointed out that the rear sight on the 91/24 is different than the one on the 91/38. So if Oswald had taken the 91/24 and changed out the barrel to one from a 91/38--and, assuming the 91/38 barrel was unstamped [without a serial number], had stamped the same C2766 serial number into the 40-inch barrel--there would still be the matter of the rifle in custody having the 91/24 rear sight, as I understand the evidence before me. And from what I've read, the rear sight on the rifle in custody seems to be the correct one for a 91/38.

So...where did the 91/38 rifle come from? And did it ever actually come into Oswald's possession? Tom, help me out here...you seem to have hinted that Harry Holmes may have inspected a package containing the 91/38; is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

"is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

Would "educated supposin"/aka educated guess serve to shed some light?

1. As a psuedo-defector to the Soviet Union who had returned to the US, LHO would absolutely have been a target of our own Domestic Surveillance Program.

Which included the "Mail Watch" of virtually anyone who received anything such as those FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA; ACLU; American Communist Party; letters from the Soviet Union; etc; etc; etc; items through the US Postal System.

Therefore, one could assume, as if fact, that LHO's Post Office boxes were being "watched" if for no other reason than that mail which he received. Not to even mention the "defector" to the Soviet Union status.

From indication of the "games played", LHO was of course fully aware of the probabililty that he was being kept track of through the US Mail system.

2. JEH was in a battle to stop the rampant sale of "Male Order" weapons with no true form of ID offered, and an ongoing effort in Congress was being mounted to cease this practice.

Klein's Sporting Goods was one of those companies being investigated for such practices, which would have of course placed it on a "Mail Order" surveillance watch as well.

3. So!

A. Individual who had purportedly attempted to defect to the Soviet Union.

B. Individual who received "subversive" literature from a multitude of various organizations, through the US Postal Service.*

C. Weapon ordered through the mail/US Postal Service from a firm that was on a "Watch List" and was in fact the subject of Congressional Hearings. And which company purportedly has indirect ties to CIA Contract organizations.

====================================================================

With that stated, on can be virtually assured, that not unlike Timothy McVey, LHO's actions and location were being closely monitered.*

*And I might add, LHO played the game quite well as the US Postal Service as well as the FBI seldom knew exactly where LHO was located/staying.

Therefore, at times, LHO's games required him to stand up, wave his hands, and Yell Here I Am, look at me down here in New Orleans, passing out FPCC posters.

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

Look at me, I am getting a passport and going to Mexico!

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

====================================================================

both Mark and Tom might be correct here...

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The silence is deafening.

The evidence cited by the WC, as twisted as it is, only ties Oswald to a Carcano model 91/24, which was a cut-off version of a rifle with a progressive twist barrel. The rifle recovered in the TSBD was a model 91/38, and there is no evidence on record explaining how Oswald might have come into possession of a 91/38.

SO...since the 91/38 is most likely the murder weapon...but it's not the same rifle the WC has "proved" was received from Klein's by Oswald...as Desi used to say to Lucy, somebody's "got some 'splainin' to do." Did Oswald obtain the 91/38? From whom? When? How? Or if the 91/38 wasn't Oswald's, why was the serial number "coincidentally" the same as the 91/24 that Oswald DID receive?

The easiest thing for the WC to do...was what they did. They "tracked" the 91/24 from Klein's to Oswald, and then attempted to pass off the 91/38 as the same weapon. Tom has pointed out that the rear sight on the 91/24 is different than the one on the 91/38. So if Oswald had taken the 91/24 and changed out the barrel to one from a 91/38--and, assuming the 91/38 barrel was unstamped [without a serial number], had stamped the same C2766 serial number into the 40-inch barrel--there would still be the matter of the rifle in custody having the 91/24 rear sight, as I understand the evidence before me. And from what I've read, the rear sight on the rifle in custody seems to be the correct one for a 91/38.

So...where did the 91/38 rifle come from? And did it ever actually come into Oswald's possession? Tom, help me out here...you seem to have hinted that Harry Holmes may have inspected a package containing the 91/38; is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

"is there any evidence on record to support this, or are you just "supposin'?"

Would "educated supposin"/aka educated guess serve to shed some light?

1. As a psuedo-defector to the Soviet Union who had returned to the US, LHO would absolutely have been a target of our own Domestic Surveillance Program.

Which included the "Mail Watch" of virtually anyone who received anything such as those FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA; ACLU; American Communist Party; letters from the Soviet Union; etc; etc; etc; items through the US Postal System.

Therefore, one could assume, as if fact, that LHO's Post Office boxes were being "watched" if for no other reason than that mail which he received. Not to even mention the "defector" to the Soviet Union status.

From indication of the "games played", LHO was of course fully aware of the probabililty that he was being kept track of through the US Mail system.

2. JEH was in a battle to stop the rampant sale of "Male Order" weapons with no true form of ID offered, and an ongoing effort in Congress was being mounted to cease this practice.

Klein's Sporting Goods was one of those companies being investigated for such practices, which would have of course placed it on a "Mail Order" surveillance watch as well.

3. So!

A. Individual who had purportedly attempted to defect to the Soviet Union.

B. Individual who received "subversive" literature from a multitude of various organizations, through the US Postal Service.*

C. Weapon ordered through the mail/US Postal Service from a firm that was on a "Watch List" and was in fact the subject of Congressional Hearings. And which company purportedly has indirect ties to CIA Contract organizations.

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With that stated, on can be virtually assured, that not unlike Timothy McVey, LHO's actions and location were being closely monitered.*

*And I might add, LHO played the game quite well as the US Postal Service as well as the FBI seldom knew exactly where LHO was located/staying.

Therefore, at times, LHO's games required him to stand up, wave his hands, and Yell Here I Am, look at me down here in New Orleans, passing out FPCC posters.

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

Look at me, I am getting a passport and going to Mexico!

Which means that I am not in Dallas!

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both Mark and Tom might be correct here...

In the event that Mr. Dolva still exists!

A "Red Herring" can also be a "paper bag" , quite similar to the TSDB paper bag, which is mailed to LHO at a fictional address.

US Postal Service/aka FBI, are looking for LHO where he does not exist, meanwhile, O.H. Lee has moved to a secretive rooming house where he should not be found.

Those who were playing this game/manipulating the players, were most assuredly not amateurs!

[Mark Knight]

The biggest "red herring"so far is the WC passing off the 91/24 Carcano that LHO ordered [and received] from Klein's as the 91/38 that was recovered from the TSBD. Not the ONLY red herring, mind you, but it's certainly the smelliest smelt I ever smelt. [Apologies to the vaudeville comedian who originally wrote that line...]

To this day, we don't know whether Oswald received the 91/38 in Dallas or in New Orleans...or for that matter, whether he ever possessed the 91/38 at any time. We don't know where it came from, we don't know by what means it traveled from where it originated, and we don't know when or where Oswald got it, if he ever did. Oswald, as Hidell, apparently ordered and received the 91/24 from Klein's...I'll concede that there is evidence of that, however twisted it might be. But a competent defense attorney could have proven the differences between the 91/24 that Oswald ordered and received, and the 91/38 that was recovered in the TSBD--which is in no way directly linked to Oswald--and convinced a jury, based upon the prosecution's own evidence, that Oswald [most likely] never possessed the murder weapon, the 91/38. Of course, had LHO survived and been able at his trial to produce the 91/24, it would've blown the prosecution's case wide open...as the 91/38 would've been shown as the "orphan" rifle that we now know it is...because the prosecution could not and cannot prove the whereabouts of the 91/38 prior to 1 pm on November 22, 1963.

Or can they? Anyone know of ANY evidence that shows how, when, and where the 91/38 came into Oswald's possession...if it ever did?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The biggest "red herring"so far is the WC passing off the 91/24 Carcano that LHO ordered [and received] from Klein's as the 91/38 that was recovered from the TSBD. Not the ONLY red herring, mind you, but it's certainly the smelliest smelt I ever smelt. [Apologies to the vaudeville comedian who originally wrote that line...]

To this day, we don't know whether Oswald received the 91/38 in Dallas or in New Orleans...or for that matter, whether he ever possessed the 91/38 at any time. We don't know where it came from, we don't know by what means it traveled from where it originated, and we don't know when or where Oswald got it, if he ever did. Oswald, as Hidell, apparently ordered and received the 91/24 from Klein's...I'll concede that there is evidence of that, however twisted it might be. But a competent defense attorney could have proven the differences between the 91/24 that Oswald ordered and received, and the 91/38 that was recovered in the TSBD--which is in no way directly linked to Oswald--and convinced a jury, based upon the prosecution's own evidence, that Oswald [most likely] never possessed the murder weapon, the 91/38. Of course, had LHO survived and been able at his trial to produce the 91/24, it would've blown the prosecution's case wide open...as the 91/38 would've been shown as the "orphan" rifle that we now know it is...because the prosecution could not and cannot prove the whereabouts of the 91/38 prior to 1 pm on November 22, 1963.

Or can they? Anyone know of ANY evidence that shows how, when, and where the 91/38 came into Oswald's possession...if it ever did?

The biggest "red herring"so far is the WC passing off the 91/24 Carcano that LHO ordered [and received] from Klein's as the 91/38 that was recovered from the TSBD. Not the ONLY red herring, mind you, but it's certainly the smelliest smelt I ever smelt.

The Klein's add references a "36-inch" length Carbine, while the photo actually demostrates a picture of the Model 91/24 Carbine which was in fact the old Long Rifle cut down to Carbine length.

Which happened to be extremely inaccurate.

When one references any "Model 91" Carbine, this could include the original Model 91 Carbine; the Model 91/24 Carbine which was produced by cutting down the old Long Rifles; the Model 91/28 true Carbine.

The primary distinctions being that reference to a "Model 91" defines the weapon as being 6.5mm in caliber as well as having the long range adjustable rear sight.

With that point in mind, the "Order" from which Klein's originally received many of these weapons, began with the sum of 3,500 Model 91 Carbines, with absolutely no distinction as to exactly how many may have actually been Model 91's; Model 91/24's; and/or Model 91/28's.

However!

That weapon which bore the serial number C2766, WAS NOT among these weapons as it was listed within the grouping of an additional 1,700 Model T38 weapons which was purchased within the same order.

Thusly, the order was for 520 cases of weapons (10 weapons per case) for a total order of 5,200 weapons, of which 3,500 were absolutely listed as Model 91's (open leaf adjustable rear sight), and 1,700 of the weapons were listed as being "T38" for which there is no such actual listing of such a weapon.

That weapon which bore the serial number C2766 was listed among those as being a "T38" weapon.

The term "38" added to any of the weapons, merely indicates that it was produced in the year 1938 (or thereafter), and that the weapon has a completely "fixed" rear sight.

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http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/inde...p/t-225225.html

View Full Version : Carcano T38

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Richard Simmons01-16-2005, 02:58 PM

What exactly is a T38 and what's it worth? TIA

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neilwest01-16-2005, 05:29 PM

1. Ive never heard of a T38. There is a 38 TS or the Moschetto TS which is a Short Rifle. These are around 38" long. For Model info heres a link for your. Standard price is around $100.00 to $150.00 max.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html

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Fingolfen01-17-2005, 12:09 AM

I've heard the cavalry carbine referred to as the T38 - basically it's the Carcano carbine with a folding bayonet. I've seen them run anywhere from $100 to $200 depending on condition. I have one, but would like to put a new stock on it.

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Richard Simmons01-17-2005, 08:56 AM

Thanks for the info guys.

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So! When one references the term "T38", they can thereafter pretty well just make up whatever weapon that they so desire as this actually being, as there has never been a "Model T38" Carcano.

It could be anything from the Calvary Carbine, to the Model 38/7.35mm (Short Rifle).