Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Pamela Brown]

Brian Schmidt,

I believe any individual responsible for JFK's murder was dangerous. Dangerous because he or she could have revealed facts leading to the plotters.

The CIA is good at hiding facts. So good it's impossible to believe the CIA would let self-incriminating facts to become public.

Unless CIA is doing a limited hang-out, in which case they will 'release' damaging information that is probably flawed or incomplete in order to divert us from the real damaging info they don't want us to know...

[Steven Gaal]

Ron, do you think Angleton and/or Helms were involved?

Everything I've read about Angleton only confuses me. What was he doing in Mary Pinchot Meyer's house looking for her diary after her murder? Did he expect to be named in the diary as a JFK assassin, as if Meyer would know? As for Helms, I think he at least must have known who did it (accessory after the fact). He was certainly involved in the cover-up.

• David Ferrie had the phone exchange for Thomas Karamessines
• Thomas Hercules Karamessines was Helm's number two man.
• Helms was part of the old guard loyal to Dulles
• Helms had the power to overrule JJA in having a French Patsy,which IMHO JJA wanted.
• Though JJA could assassinate ,said Dallas Operation was a "Plans" type of operation.
• see
• (RE HELMS /// BARNES) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/bXvsDBjY4q4 (CLICK THIS AT TOP Sam McClung it's becoming pretty obvious that tracy barnes was abe greenbaum mentioned by richard case nagell in )
• BELOW ,Reviewed by James DiEugenio CTKA >>>> http://www.ctka.net/2009/russell_review_2.html

Another possibility is that someone in the know learned about Barnes' efforts and told him to back off. (RE BARNES STOPPING PLOT)

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Who could overrule Barnes ? ANSWER HELMS (GAAL)

Edited July 6, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Jon G. Tidd]

Steven Gaal,

I have no doubt Richard Helms would lie to protect the CIA. Any CIA operative would do that. That's a given. It's baked into the cake.

Your #467 comment suggests Helms helped organize the JFK murder. That's treason. Helms was not a petulant child. I don't believe he would have committed treason.

Might Helms have kept to himself what he knew about the assassination? You bet. That's not treason.

It's one thing to know something. It's quite another to cause something to occur.

[Steven Gaal]

Steven Gaal,

I have no doubt Richard Helms would lie to protect the CIA. Any CIA operative would do that. That's a given. It's baked into the cake.

Your #467 comment suggests Helms helped organize the JFK murder. That's treason. Helms was not a petulant child. I don't believe he would have committed treason.

Might Helms have kept to himself what he knew about the assassination? You bet. That's not treason.

It's one thing to know something. It's quite another to cause something to occur.

Angleton and Phillips Shuffle off this Mortal Coil

-

http://www.ctka.net/2015/JimDMexicoCity/DestinyBetrayed16.html

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It took fifteen years for Lopez and Hardway to begin to scrape away the bad odor. It took another fifteen years for the public to see that report. By that time, Angleton had passed away. But during the so-called "season of inquiry," that is the investigations of the Church Committee and the HSCA, his name finally became popular with the press in a way it never had been before. As mentioned previously, Angleton always wished to portray the Kennedy murder as the product of the KGB. And this is what he— with the help of David Phillips— had arranged for with the soufflé they had cooked up in Mexico City. But when, after the anesthesia of the Warren Commission finally began to wear off, and questions about the Kennedy assassination began to be asked, Angleton’s extensive but submerged role in all this began to be exposed. The surprising thing is that, even after his role in the case was finally revealed, he still insisted that the Russians had killed Kennedy. But during his all too brief inquisition— at the time of the Church Committee and HSCA— two famous incidents of resonance took place. In 1974 Director William Colby dismissed Angleton because of his zealous insistence that Russian defector Yuri Nosenko was not genuine. Nosenko gravely wounded Angleton’s KGB case since he said the Russians never seriously thought of employing Oswald. The dispute over Nosenko partially paralyzed the CIA. Colby fired not just Angleton, but his trusted assistants Ray Rocca and Scotty Miler. In the midst of the formation of the Church Committee, which would soon question him, and the possibility of a reopening of the Kennedy case, Angleton uttered his now famous and provocative phrase: "A mansion has many rooms … I’m not privy to who struck John."¹¹⁰ Angleton had dabbled in writing poetry for many years, and was a friend of T. S. Eliot. Therefore he knew how to be precise with words. What many thought he was suggesting was the following: Since he was now cut loose from any formal protection by the Agency, if they had any ideas about pinning the assassination on him, he was not going down by himself.

This suspicion was furthered over the brouhaha over the so-called Hunt memorandum. In 1978, former CIA officer Victor Marchetti wrote an article saying that the Agency had decided on a limited hang out on the JFK murder. They would surrender Howard Hunt to the HSCA. The basis for this was the alleged surfacing of a 1966 internal CIA memo from Angleton to Richard Helms saying that no cover story had been constructed for Howard Hunt’s presence in Dallas on the day Kennedy was killed. No one had seen the memo prior to Marchetti writing his story in 1978. But Angleton did show it to author Joe Trento in that year. As he did, he told Trento, "Did you know that Howard Hunt was in Dallas on the day of the assassination?"¹¹¹ Although the HSCA never did get this memo, a subsequent trial over Marchetti’s article did show that Hunt indeed had no alibi for where he was on the day Kennedy was killed.¹¹² As Lisa Pease maintains in her two part essay on Angleton, this whole memo issue seems part of Angelton’s attempt to repeat his "Who struck John" warning.¹¹³ For Howard Hunt was not a part of Angleton’s unit of over 200 employees. As we have seen, Hunt was associated with Allen Dulles, Tracy Barnes, and later Richard Helms. The memo to Helms— whether real or concocted later— would insinuate Hunt’s covert action group in the assassination. Again, if Angleton was going to take the fall, he was going to bring others with him.

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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3658&p=141147 below

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P. 198-99 - "...(William) Hood could not explain why Oswald received such high-level attention. He told me he was puzzled that 'latest headquarters information' on Oswald had been omitted after such extensive consultation. Was it possible that Karamessines had omitted the latest information on Oswald because someone at headquarters was running an operation involving him?"

"'Absolutly not,' Hood said. 'There's no reason to. If it was something at Helms's level there would be a reason not to tell somebody in teh field. But not at this level.'"

"But the October 10 cable had reached the level of Tom Karamessines, who was Helms's most trusted deputy. Hood conceeded that 'the information that is left out is pretty significant.' The ommission os Oswald's encounter with the DRE, he said, was 'an anomaly....It really should have been sent in the cable.'"

"Thus significant information about a man who would go on to kill the president of the United States six weeks later was deliberately denied to teh CIA's top man in Mexico. Hood could not explain why, save to say, 'I would like to think that 80% [of CIA cables] would be more competent.' But he insisted, 'I don't find anything smelly in it.'"

P. 233 - "...As Angleton took over as the agency's liaison to the Warren Commission, he made sure its investigators never saw a key piece of paper: John Whitten's November 23 memo on how Tom Karamessines had ordered Win not to seek the arrest of Sylvia Duran so as to preserve 'US freedom to maneuver.' Whitten had noted his objections...."

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from thread

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3658&p=25947

Edited July 6, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Jon G. Tidd]

Steven Gaal,

You show that the CIA was keeping tabs on Oswald; that this was being done at a high level; and that not everyone in the CIA knew this was being done.

I can say, Steven, from having had hands-on agent operations in Viet Nam, that what you describe is unremarkable in terms of how an intelligence organization is compartmentalized. I knew certain things about agent operations in III Corps in Viet Nam that were privy only to me. Others in my unit knew things I didn't know. This was garden variety military intelligence in a war zone. Highly compartmentalized.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd

[Brian Schmidt]

Helms and Tracy Barnes were enemies; Helms had Barnes fired once he became DCI, so I have a hard time believing that the two worked in concert in planning or carrying out the assassination.

[Steven Gaal]

Helms and Tracy Barnes were enemies; Helms had Barnes fired once he became DCI, so I have a hard time believing that the two worked in concert in planning or carrying out the assassination.

AGREE FOR RCN WAS SPYING ON THE HELMS OP. GAAL

++++++++++++++++++++

• David Ferrie had the phone exchange for Thomas Karamessines
• Thomas Hercules Karamessines was Helm's number two man.
• Helms was part of the old guard loyal to Dulles
• Helms had the power to overrule JJA in having a French Patsy,which IMHO JJA wanted.
• Though JJA could assassinate ,said Dallas Operation was a "Plans" type of operation.
• see
• (RE HELMS /// BARNES) https://groups.googl...jfk/bXvsDBjY4q4 (CLICK THIS AT TOP Sam McClung it's becoming pretty obvious that tracy barnes was abe greenbaum mentioned by richard case nagell in )
• BELOW ,Reviewed by James DiEugenio CTKA >>>> http://www.ctka.net/...l_review_2.html

Another possibility is that someone in the know learned about Barnes' efforts and told him to back off.(James DiEugenio )(RE BARNES STOPPING PLOT ,GAAL)

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Who could overrule Barnes ? ANSWER HELMS (GAAL)

Edited July 7, 2015 by Steven Gaal