Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[John Dolva]

"almost complete silence" - I wonder why?

Interesting. A minor post of mine has been turned into something more by you and Mark (a hijack), and, before any of this, Pipers 'great work' has gone unchallenged.

Isn't that what's commonly called 'non sense'.

Edited February 16, 2007 by John Dolva

[Antti Hynonen]

Gentlemen,

Please keep the thread on topic, use common courtesy when referring to each other, also when commenting each other's posts. At this point I'll leave it up to each of you to consider whether or not to edit your recent posts. Some of the remarks here are going beyond what has been established as Forum policy.

There is a separate thread on member behavior, which is pinned. This thread is there in case you feel the need to comment on behavioral issues. If you have concerns about moderation and about posts of fellow members, please approach one of the moderators.

Thank you for your attention.

Antti

[Sid Walker]

I apologize if I caused unwarranted offence to John Dolva in previous posts on this thread - and if I strayed from discussing the topic of the thread itself.

Antti believes the following breached forum rules, and explained his psotion in these terms:

I did not think that post no. 435 and Mark Stapleton's comments or tone were appropriate. The same goes for posts 437, 439 by you as well as to a lesser extent post 438 by John Dolva.

I did not think that it was necessary to go quite this far: "Your last two posts in this thread, John, indicate how low some folk will go in their determination to hijack real discussion of Piper's thesis, by diverting the 'debate' - a debate they are actually unwilling to join with rational arguments - into ad hominem slurs and suchlike."

I also object to this passage and the referral to the spider poem:

"should acknowledge the main exception: silly and rather spiteful posts like your recent contributions - posts that have about as much to do with the book Final Judgment as the lyrics of Boris the Spider. "

The forum rules in question are:

(iv) Members should not make personal attacks on other members. Nor should references be made to their abilities as researchers. Most importantly, the motivations of the poster should not be questioned. At all times members should concentrate on what is being said, rather than who is saying it. It is up to the reader to look at the biography submitted by the poster, to judge whether they are telling the truth or not. The word “xxxx” is banned from use on the forum.

and

vi) Make sure your postings are relevant to the thread. Please start another thread if your comments do not belong to any existing threads.

Forum members might care to speculate on how this thread might have taken a different and more productive turn if such stringent moderation had been in place from the outset.

Piper himself, for instance, might still be on the thread.

He would not have arrived at the thread after it was already several pages long to discover an unpleasant trail of ad hominem attacks directed at him. Discussion that was NOT closely related to the book Final Judgment would have been greatly reduced. So would the length of the thread!

I shall have to watch my p's and q's under a new and much more stringent moderation regime - but I can also see potential benefits, if it is appled with fairness and in an even-handed manner.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sid Walker

[John Dolva]

That's ok Sid.

It's interesting to have seen a moderation under the new forum leadership structure in operation. In this instance balanced and fair (IMO). To help the moderators, of course, with a pause and a think with less reaction before postings are made I hope we can all look forward to a more productive forum. At the same time if one has strongly opposing viewpoints to the topics and withhold them for the sake of 'peace' that wuld be a great shame.

[Sid Walker]

That's ok Sid.

It's interesting to have seen a moderation under the new forum leadership structure in operation. In this instance balanced and fair (IMO). To help the moderators, of course, with a pause and a think with less reaction before postings are made I hope we can all look forward to a more productive forum. At the same time if one has strongly opposing viewpoints to the topics and withhold them for the sake of 'peace' that wuld be a great shame.

I agree.

Indeed, as I communicated directly to Antti, I didn't take offence at your comments John - I just disagreed with them and said why, in a manner that was intended to bite, but not abuse. I'm sorry if anyone thought I strayed across that line.

Anyhow, as I indicated before, it will be interesting indeed to see how this thread progresses further with strict controls on ad hominem attacks and off-topic rants.

I'm all for it

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark, thank you for highlighting this.

One should not forget the type of persons Piper has associated with. I understand another one (David Duke) is preparing a book on how the Jews blew up the World Trade Center.

These people have a certain voice in the talk-cirquit in some militant Islamic groupings. There's always the possibility that their justified righteous indignation at how some parts of the western world treat their people will allow themeselves to be mislead by these provocateurs. As a result many may suffer. So it is relevant and important.

As it's John's topic it's up to him to delete or not delete postings. He won't find me objecting eitherway.

Anyway I'm glad the truth of where these people have come from and how that may color their 'theories' is kept in mind.

John,

Frankly, I find your logic a little confusing here. These reasons you cited which underpin your making such an irrelevant (and slightly disparaging) post are pitifully poor, imo.

So far you haven't challenged any specific issues raised in Piper's book, but merely reminded us that one should not forget 'the type of persons Piper has associated with'. You also seem to be making a vague assertion that these 'provocateurs' avail themselves of the Islamic 'talk circuit' as a means of recruiting terrorists---or something. Fascinating, but as Sherlock Holmes once remarked, "an intriguing line of thought Watson, but not entirely relevant to the case".

When I said 'delete' the post, I should have said 'edit' the post because of course only the moderators can delete it. Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the end--I just want to finish the book summary for now. I look forward to your comments regarding the subject matter of the book.

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Message from Jeff Dahlstrom

Question: Have any of your fellow researchers read, reviewed, evaluated, and/or commented on a book pubished recently by the American Free Press written by Michael Collins Piper titled Final Judgement: The Missing Link in the JFK Assassination? I have recently ordered a copy of this book which is also billed as "America's #1 Banned Book".

I can tell you that this book is not available in any library. It is not sold at Barnes & Noble or Borders Books nor can they even order a copy for their clients. So the billing of this book as "America's #1 Banned Book" has some merit to this reader and writer.

I have scoured and searched both "JFK Lancer" and "JFK Online" (John Simkin's Education Forum on JFK), and have found absolutely no reference to this book or it's theories about the JFK assassination. I have not yet read this lengthy and well researched book yet but I understand that part of the thesis of the author is that the Israeli Mossad played a role in the assassination over JFK's opposition to Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion's desire to obtain nuclear weapons to defend Israel.

Correct. Anytime a book is banned that almost always means it is must reading. Debra Conway of JFK Lancer will not let Final Judgement be displayed or sold at any JFK Lancer conference which I think is a very close minded way to approach things.

Here is a link to the book: http://www.democratic-republicans.us/images/Final_Judgment.pdf

At at time when AIPAC activists and lobbyists are swarming all over Capital Hill, begging for Congress to approve a military bombing of Syria, a little time reading a book like this is well spent.

No - I do not believe Israel was behind the JFK assassination. But I do believe Lyndon Johnson and the leadership of the IDF, particularly Moshe Dayan, conspired to murder everyone on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 so it could be blamed on Egypt in a false flag attack.

The bottom line is a book like this gives one good insight into the USA-Israeli relationship and how it got to be such a "special friendship."

Another good book to read on the JFK assassination's is Gus Russo's Live By the Sword. Not that it's thesis is correct, but because there is information in there you can find nowhere else.

You don't have to agree 100% with a book to obtain useful nuggets from it.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Pamela Brown]

I agree that FJ is a book to be read and weighed and evaluated. The thesis does not hold up, namely that Mossad was responsible for just about everything having to do with the assassination. Nevertheless, it can be very insightful in terms of getting us to look at Israel, its emergence as a state and its influence on the US in a more defined manner. This is also the book that caused me to be interested in the wellbeing and fate of Mordechai Vanunu, the Dimona whistleblower, who is still not yet able to leave Israel. It is a very thought-provoking book IMO.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Pamela Brown

[Don Jeffries]

I echo Pamela and Robert's comments. One need not accept Piper's thesis to appreciate that there is some valuable information in his book. I think the research community has been pretty closed minded about Final Judgment, often dismissing it cavalierly without even reading it.

Regardless, we should be able to discuss the book, and it certainly shouldn't be censored.

[Larry Hancock]

I feel that I should add that Robert may well not know about Piper's personal interactions with Debra - its often good to have first hand information about a situation before making

assumptions as to motive and causes. And that is all I'm saying about that...

[Steven Gaal]

Death raises questions

Man who died in Cd'A motel was a conspiracy theorist

Posted: Friday, July 3, 2015 12:00 am

=

Death raises questions JEFF SELLE and MAUREEN DOLAN/jselle@cdapress.com, mdolan@cdapress.com The Coeur d' Alene Press | 5 comments

COEUR d'ALENE - A national celebrity journalist among conspiracy theorists, but considered an anti-Semite by some members of the Jewish community, Michael Collins Piper, 54, died alone in a local motel room in late May.

The news is being quietly debated online, and in the tradition of Piper's life work, conspiracy theories about his death are starting to emerge.

Piper was found by a housekeeper in room 216 of the Budget Saver Motel on Sherman Avenue on May 30, but had obviously died prior to that date, according to Coeur d'Alene Police reports.

The manager of the motel told police that Piper checked in on May 14, and was scheduled to check out June 4. The manager told police he last recalled seeing Piper on the morning of May 29.

When police went into the room to identify the body, Piper had strange blisters on his back that were weeping fluid, so the patrol officers called in detectives and contacted the coroner's office.

"He had multiple blisters forming on his neck and right elbow," the responding officer wrote in his report. "Also, something appeared to be soaking through his shirt on his back."

The officer reported that Coeur d'Alene Fire Department was also on the scene and said the blisters and stain on Piper's back looked "very odd."

As police waited for the detectives to arrive at the scene, the responding officers contacted a guest, Chad Dalton, who had been living in room 217 for about a month. Dalton told police he had only met Piper briefly before his death, but he added that he did hear tapping noises coming from Piper's room around 11 p.m. the night before his body was found.

When detectives arrived at the scene, they began taking photographs and investigating the room. They found several pieces of mail with the name Michael Collins Piper on them, and one of the detectives thought the name was familiar.

"He remembered this name being related to a male who was a conspiracy theorist," the detective wrote, adding there didn't appear to be any signs of foul play, and the room was locked from the inside when the body was found.

When Deputy Coroner Lynn Acevedo arrived she told detectives she thought the blisters were from accelerated decomposition of the body because its was 80-85 degrees in the room, and she said certain medical conditions could speed that process too.

The detectives and coroner decided at that point to slate the body for an autopsy, but eventually the procedure was canceled.

While moving the body, police found Piper's wallet, which contained a large amount of cash in $5 bills, and they were able to confirm Piper's identity. He also had a card in his wallet that said he had a heart valve replacement in April 2014.

One detective looked through Piper's computer tablet and found additional information about him, including the fact that Piper had suffered a heart attack in 2013 and had diabetes.

The coroner said diabetes would accelerate decomposition, but she would attempt to contact Piper's doctor to better understand his medical issues.

"Michael appears to have had some medical issues with his heart and is a possible diabetic," the detective concluded in his report. "There was no evidence anyone was involved in a criminal act to cause the death of Michael, and this death appears to be of natural causes."

After talking with his doctor, Acevedo told detectives that Piper was a non-compliant diabetic along with his heart ailment, and she was going to rule the death as "natural."

Acevedo wrote in the coroner's report that the cause of death was a "probable Myocardial Infarction, Ischemic Cardiomyopathy and Coronary Artery Disease," and listed diabetes as another significant condition.

The coroner's report also indicates that toxicology results were consistent with her findings and that no autopsy was conducted.

"This case is being closed and there is no need for further investigation," the detective wrote in his final report.

Another detective was able to contact Piper's close friend Mark Glenn, of Careywood, who told him that Piper had been living with him for approximately five months, but a house fire had forced Piper to find a new rental home in Coeur d'Alene on Seventh Street.

Glenn told police that Piper had moved all his possessions into the house, and was living at the motel until he could get his things unpacked.

"Glenn also told me Michael was in very bad health," his report said. "Michael was crippled to a point and could barely walk."

Glenn did not respond to a Press request for an interview. On his blog, theuglytruth.wordpress.com, Glenn wrote that he helped move Piper to Idaho after Piper was terminated from his job at American Free Press. AFP is a weekly digital and print publication often cited as anti-Semitic. Glenn indicated Piper left the publication on bad terms.

That termination and Piper's death have many of his readers now speculating if there was a conspiracy involved.

"Did Israel Assassinate Michael Collins Piper," reads the headline in a story published by Veterans Today, a website that describes itself as a journal for the clandestine community.

"Collins led the war against AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) and the Kosher mafia when others now considered 'experts' knew nothing at all," wrote Veterans Today senior editor Gordon Duff, in the article published June 3. "News quickly spread about his 'heart condition' and how he died of natural causes. Then again, Abe Foxman is still alive and Netanyahu's attic portrait is oozing hideousity."

Duff wrote he believes Piper was likely murdered.

"Moreover, I also believe his heart condition was induced as well," he added.

The confusion prompted Wikipedia to flag the death information on Piper's page as unfounded and in need of citations. The website posted a link to its "talk page" for people to discuss the details of Piper's life and death.

Piper's brother, Tom Piper, of Pennsylvania, said he could not tell The Press much about his brother's journalism career because he had moved away and spent most of his life in Washington, D.C.

"I don't know anything about his career," he said.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Jon G. Tidd]

Steven Gael,

I'm taken aback. Is Michael Collins Piper dead?

[Steven Gaal]

Steven Gael,

I'm taken aback. Is Michael Collins Piper dead?

I'm taken aback, its spelled GAAL,gaal

[Jon G. Tidd]

Steven Gaal,

Apologies. Is Michael Collins Piper dead?

[Steven Gaal]

Steven Gaal,

Apologies. Is Michael Collins Piper dead?

I have no reason to doubt the COEUR d'Alene paper,PIPER is dead.,gaal

Edited July 4, 2015 by Steven Gaal