Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Pat Speer]

It would worry me more, Andy, if I felt compelled to resort to name-calling, in response to reasoned arguments and documentation presented by opponents in debate.

Sid, the aceptance of "documentation" is often a subjective thing. One should always consider the source. The Glenn piece, for instance talks about the insulting references to Christ and the Virgin Mary in the Talmud, as if this was a proven fact. I did a little digging and found that Jeiwsh scholars have long-held that the references to Yeshu and Ben Panidra were references to people other than Christ. They hold that, if anything, Christ was a legend constructed from the earlier stories of Yeshu and Ben Panidra. Glenn's inclusion of this reference was an obvious attempt to incite Christians---these Jews blaspheme your God---you should hate them--when the affront was imaginary. I asked a few of my Jewish friends if they'd ever heard a Rabbi denigrate Jesus or Mary in Temple, and they all said that Jesus was never discussed, one way or the other.

[Peter McGuire]

According to Piper, the "boots on the ground", in the operation to kill JFK, were members of the Meyer Lansky crime syndicate, of which Jack Ruby was a member. He further claims that Angleton was the connection to the Mossad. Interestingly, there is a public monument honoring Angleton in Tel Aviv.

Piper offers a motive to a murder that already has a thousand. What difference does it make that he thinks Israel was at the top of the food chain? And the last I heard, Israel is an independent country. How does this become a religious issue?

Someone was directing the intelligence agencies to act. Who was above the core elements of the CIA in this matter? Who knows? I sure don't. Are they going to come out and admit it? Of course not. We can see, however, what happened that afternoon. It is right before our eyes.

Piper's work with the Meyer Lansky crime syndicate is valuable , and should be corroborated.

[Pamela Brown]

According to Piper, the "boots on the ground", in the operation to kill JFK, were members of the Meyer Lansky crime syndicate, of which Jack Ruby was a member. He further claims that Angleton was the connection to the Mossad. Interestingly, there is a public monument honoring Angleton in Tel Aviv.

Piper offers a motive to a murder that already has a thousand. What difference does it make that he thinks Israel was at the top of the food chain? And the last I heard, Israel is an independent country. How does this become a religious issue?

Someone was directing the intelligence agencies to act. Who was above the core elements of the CIA in this matter? Who knows? I sure don't. Are they going to come out and admit it? Of course not. We can see, however, what happened that afternoon. It is right before our eyes.

Piper's work with the Meyer Lansky crime syndicate is valuable , and should be corroborated.

Peter, I tend to agree with you. It seems to me that Piper opens a lot of doors in FJ and at times even asks researchers to follow up on some of the leads he has presented; such as who the Israeli newspaper men were that Jack Ruby was supposedly talking to, what information whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu might have that caused him to think the JFK assassination was connected to the Six-day War, why LHO claimed he worked for the Leon Israel Coffee Co. in NOLA, and many others.

I keep returning to FJ as a means of reorienting my thinking about the assassination. Just yesterday I posted on aaj to Johann Rush (tv cameraman who filmed LHO demonstrating and at the courthouse in NOLA) about Piper's claims that he and Posner collaborated on CC.

I am not finding FJ anti-semitic; it is definitely anti-Mossad, and very specific about that. It is also anti-CIA and anti-Angleton, to name a few. I do know that FJ is very controversial, and I recall that Piper asked to speak at NID some years ago and was refused. So FJ definitely is not *safe-CT* material.

[Guest]

It would worry me more, Andy, if I felt compelled to resort to name-calling, in response to reasoned arguments and documentation presented by opponents in debate.

When I find you proposing reasoned arguments supported by valid documentation, rather than the unsupported and obsessive anti semitic bile you have inflicted on us thus far, I will of course be the first to engage.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Found this on a Cuban exile web site. It's an interview with William Somerset, the informer who gave info on supremacist Joseph Milteer.

"Confidential Information developed by the Intelligence Unit of the Miami Police Department Miami, Fla. Tape transcribed by Mary Gilbert, P/woman in the Miami Police Department on Nov, 26, 1963.

I met a man in Jacksonville, Fla at the Union Station at approximately 4:15. His name was Milteer. He was from Valdosta Georgia, and he is very much involved in what is known as an underground. During the journey to South Carolina, he told me, he was connected with an International Underground. He expressed along the way that there would be a propaganda campaign put on now to prove to the Christian people of the world, that the Jews, the Zionist Jews had murdered Kennedy. He said there would be pamphlets distributed throughout the world stating that The Jews killed Christ 2,000 years ago, and on t he 22 of November, they killed President Kennedy.

But the thing that had to be done now was to get a pamphlet out, through the world laying the murder of Kennedy at the foot of the Jews. He taken a piece of paper out of a drawer in the room, and he wrote out what he thought should be on the pamphlet. He written it on paper belonging to the Wade Hampton Hotel.

Q: Who did this writing?

A: Mr. Milteer. And he put the heading on it Christians Everywhere, Notice to Christians Everywhere; I didn't read it, but I heard him read it. And it said there Two Thousand Years ago the Zionist Jews killed Christ, and that they had killed President Kennedy. And it went on the state that we the Christian people must push the Jews from the continental United States.

During the time of this meeting, and while we were waiting for our food, and during the time we eat it, uh, Milteer was continuously telling these men that the Constitutional Party of America would be used as part of the International Underground, and also as a political party, but the main purpose of it would be to organized in every state, and raise as much money as we could in everyway to furnish the hard core underground some money to eliminate the Jews, who were responsible for Kennedy's murder. That we had to convince the people of the world that the Jews engineered the killing, and in that way there would be no "heat" on the patriots. And he said that we had no worry, and to gorget about being involved, it was a mastermind job, and that the jews would never be able to lay it on the patriots. That the further it went, the more it would come at the feet of the Jews"

[Sid Walker]

Found this on a Cuban exile web site. It's an interview with William Somerset, the informer who gave info on supremacist Joseph Milteer.

"Confidential Information developed by the Intelligence Unit of the Miami Police Department Miami, Fla. Tape transcribed by Mary Gilbert, P/woman in the Miami Police Department on Nov, 26, 1963.

I met a man in Jacksonville, Fla at the Union Station at approximately 4:15. His name was Milteer. He was from Valdosta Georgia, and he is very much involved in what is known as an underground. During the journey to South Carolina, he told me, he was connected with an International Underground. He expressed along the way that there would be a propaganda campaign put on now to prove to the Christian people of the world, that the Jews, the Zionist Jews had murdered Kennedy. He said there would be pamphlets distributed throughout the world stating that The Jews killed Christ 2,000 years ago, and on t he 22 of November, they killed President Kennedy.

But the thing that had to be done now was to get a pamphlet out, through the world laying the murder of Kennedy at the foot of the Jews. He taken a piece of paper out of a drawer in the room, and he wrote out what he thought should be on the pamphlet. He written it on paper belonging to the Wade Hampton Hotel.

Q: Who did this writing?

A: Mr. Milteer. And he put the heading on it Christians Everywhere, Notice to Christians Everywhere; I didn't read it, but I heard him read it. And it said there Two Thousand Years ago the Zionist Jews killed Christ, and that they had killed President Kennedy. And it went on the state that we the Christian people must push the Jews from the continental United States.

During the time of this meeting, and while we were waiting for our food, and during the time we eat it, uh, Milteer was continuously telling these men that the Constitutional Party of America would be used as part of the International Underground, and also as a political party, but the main purpose of it would be to organized in every state, and raise as much money as we could in everyway to furnish the hard core underground some money to eliminate the Jews, who were responsible for Kennedy's murder. That we had to convince the people of the world that the Jews engineered the killing, and in that way there would be no "heat" on the patriots. And he said that we had no worry, and to gorget about being involved, it was a mastermind job, and that the jews would never be able to lay it on the patriots. That the further it went, the more it would come at the feet of the Jews"

Interesting find Mark.

However, if the 'plot' as descibed in this extract is to be taken at face value, one can only say that it took an awful long time to come to fruition. Piper's book first appeared in the 1990s.

Why take so long to 'frame' the intended patsies?

Quite a contrast with the remarkable rapidity with which Lee Harvery Oswald and Mohammed Atta were fingered...

[Lee Forman]

Found this on a Cuban exile web site. It's an interview with William Somerset, the informer who gave info on supremacist Joseph Milteer.

"Confidential Information developed by the Intelligence Unit of the Miami Police Department Miami, Fla. Tape transcribed by Mary Gilbert, P/woman in the Miami Police Department on Nov, 26, 1963.

I met a man in Jacksonville, Fla at the Union Station at approximately 4:15. His name was Milteer. He was from Valdosta Georgia, and he is very much involved in what is known as an underground. During the journey to South Carolina, he told me, he was connected with an International Underground. He expressed along the way that there would be a propaganda campaign put on now to prove to the Christian people of the world, that the Jews, the Zionist Jews had murdered Kennedy. He said there would be pamphlets distributed throughout the world stating that The Jews killed Christ 2,000 years ago, and on t he 22 of November, they killed President Kennedy.

But the thing that had to be done now was to get a pamphlet out, through the world laying the murder of Kennedy at the foot of the Jews. He taken a piece of paper out of a drawer in the room, and he wrote out what he thought should be on the pamphlet. He written it on paper belonging to the Wade Hampton Hotel.

Q: Who did this writing?

A: Mr. Milteer. And he put the heading on it Christians Everywhere, Notice to Christians Everywhere; I didn't read it, but I heard him read it. And it said there Two Thousand Years ago the Zionist Jews killed Christ, and that they had killed President Kennedy. And it went on the state that we the Christian people must push the Jews from the continental United States.

During the time of this meeting, and while we were waiting for our food, and during the time we eat it, uh, Milteer was continuously telling these men that the Constitutional Party of America would be used as part of the International Underground, and also as a political party, but the main purpose of it would be to organized in every state, and raise as much money as we could in everyway to furnish the hard core underground some money to eliminate the Jews, who were responsible for Kennedy's murder. That we had to convince the people of the world that the Jews engineered the killing, and in that way there would be no "heat" on the patriots. And he said that we had no worry, and to gorget about being involved, it was a mastermind job, and that the jews would never be able to lay it on the patriots. That the further it went, the more it would come at the feet of the Jews"

Odd thought. Perhaps the Wanted for Treason Ad [Weissman] and Jack Ruby took the place of Milteer's assinine concept.

[Mark Stapleton]

In accordance with my undertaking, here's the first part of my review of Final Judgement.

Due to its size and content, I'll do it in several parts. For those who have read it, please feel free to add your comments or offer corrections.

This book contains eighteen chapters of varying length, ten appendix dealing with a wide variety of additional topics such as the possible nuclear alliance between Israel and China, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the possible link between George Bush senior and the assassination, over a thousand reference footnotes, an extensive bibliography, a section outlining new revelations (here Piper argues that just prior to going to press, he recieved a 119 page anonymously written document which 'buries the tired old myth that Dallas was a clique of anti-Semitic, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant oil plutocrats', but in fact the city and state was a Jewish stronghold and a centre of fundraising and arms smuggling on behalf of the Zionist cause, dating back to the 1940's), and a Q & A section at the back.

He's thrown just about everything in. Some of it is pretty wild stuff (like the Grace Pratt story), but much of it has a powerful resonance, IMO. Piper also cites respected researcher Penn Jones as another who saw the possibility of Mossad involvement. He quotes a Midlothian Mirror column dated 18 January 1968, published on page 51 in the 1969 edition of volume 3 of "Forgive my Grief":

Jack Ruby was a close intimate of members of the Dallas Police force and other US law enforcement agencies, as well as the Israeli counter intelligence organisation. His one time employee, Nancy Zeigman Perrin Rich was also close to these same forces. Identifying Ruby and Nancy as being involved with the Israeli intelligence opens up a completely overlooked area concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

And from a column of the same newspaper dated February 24 1972, Jones wrote:

Ruby was admittedly used by the FBI in small time information gathering, but he appears to have been a bigger operative for some other agency or country....

There are many indications in the Warren Hearings and other places that Ruby, and 'Honest Joe' Goldstein were intelligence operatives in a small way for someone. And Abe Weinstein's Colony Club seems to have been used at times as a 'safe house' for operatives.

Chapters 1-4:

The opening chapter gives a brief overview of the books contents.

The second chapter poses the question--would the Mossad conspire to murder a US President percieved as hostile? In this chapter, he quotes former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky as saying Mossad had planned to murder former President George Bush in 1991.

Chapter three outlines Mossad's use of false flags in global terrorism--pointing the finger of blame elsewhere. Examples cited include:

USS Liberty--Egypt blamed.

June 28, 1978: Car bomb in Paris kills PLO organiser Mohammed Boubia--Corsican mafia blamed.

In October 1976 Mossad kidnaps West German students Brigitte Schulz and Thomas Reuter from their Paris hotel--neo nazis blamed.

April 5 1986 bombing of La Belle disco in West Berlin--Libyan leader Gaddafi blamed. Reagan attacks Libya.

Lavon affair, 1954. A truly shameful incident which caused a scandal which rocked the Ben-Gurion Government, where Israeli orchestrated terrorist attacks on British targets within Egypt were carried out. Blame for the attacks was placed on the Muslim brotherhood, which opposed Nasser. Piper cites a once-secret cable from Colonel Benjamin Givli, head of Israeli intelligence, to show the true picture:

Our goal is to break the West's confidence in the existing (Egyptian) regime. The actions should cause arrests, demonstrations, and expressions of revenge. The Israeli origin should be totally covered while attention should be shifted to any other possible factor. The purpose is to prevent economic and military aid from the West to Egypt.

Piper cites Livia Rokach, "Israel's sacred terrorism" (p.34) for the above cable.

Chapter four traces the longstanding emnity between Joe Kennedy and Meyer Lansky, dating back to their bootlegging days. It also reveals how JFK, as a young senator, angered the Israeli lobby with his support for Algerian independence.

Chapter five, which outlines the genesis of JFK's diplomatic standoff with Israel, is one of the most important in the book. I'll look at it in detail next.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Mark Stapleton

[John Dolva]

"he recieved a 119 page anonymously written document which 'buries the tired old myth that Dallas was a clique of anti-Semitic, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant oil plutocrats'"

Anonymous...It would have to be wouldn't it. Once a revisionist...

[Mark Stapleton]

"he recieved a 119 page anonymously written document which 'buries the tired old myth that Dallas was a clique of anti-Semitic, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant oil plutocrats'"

Anonymous...It would have to be wouldn't it. Once a revisionist...

Maybe you're right, John.

What kind of town was Dallas in 1963?

[Len Colby]

... The points presented in this article, upon careful reflection, has lead me to the conclusion that I "might be anti-semitic"...You Might Be An Anti-Semite If...

...You think that Jesus was a good guy who had some important things to say about peace on earth, human rights and respect for your fellow man...

...You think that the idea of one select group of people, the Jews, being a 'master race' who are 'destined to rule the world with a rod of iron' is a bunch of nonsense...

...You think that exterminating over a billion Muslims just because they dared to prevent their centuries-old culture from being conquered by the multi-headed beast of Zionism might not be such a good idea...

...You reject the popular notion that Islam is a religion of war and instead after some study find it to be a religion of peace that holds Jesus and his mother in the highest esteem and find that the Qur'an possesses some of the most beautiful religious verse ever written...

[...]

...You believe that the Jews should be held to the same standards as every other human being without being given any preferential treatment that might exonerate or in other ways cover up what has been a dark history on their part of brutality and duplicity against other peoples, and that indeed the whole idea of there being a 'chosen race' of people is as stupid as was the flat-earth theory that in previous centuries impeded so much of mankind's development ...

Yes, indeed you might be an anti-Semite if you believe just one of these forbidden items...

...But then again, maybe you're not.

Though the author made a couple of legitimate points it was on the whole it was a vile bigoted pile of xxxx and anyone who would see fit to post it approvingly on a forum is one as well. You are bigot by any objective definition.

Bill, I don't know why you had this crack at Sid. I don't think it was warranted.

Mark seems to be unable to accept that his bigoted compatriot can do any wrong

The list that Jeff quotes from Mark Glenn is not the list I'd compile to make a similar point – but there would be considerable overlap.

To describe Mark Glenn – or his website – as 'racist' is obfuscation. It's like invading a country illegally – then describing any armed opposition as 'terrorism'.

No it's accurate like calling a bigot a bigot. From a prejudiced person's POV someone who shares his (or her) beliefs isn't prejudiced.

"The term 'anti-Semitism' is a misnomer introduced into the English language during the late 19th century. From the outset, the term has been consistently used to further the Zionist agenda."

It is my understanding that the term was 1st used by a Austrian Jewish scholar in 1860 to describe contemporary pseudo-scientific theories that Semitic races (Arabs, Jews etc) were inferior to Aryan ones. It was first used to describe specifically anti-Jewish prejudice not nesicarrly with the trappings of science by a German anti-Semite. They didn't introduce it into English so perhaps technically you are correct. Can you cite a source? [ http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9007807/anti-Semitism , http://www.yale.edu/isps/seminars/antisemitism/index.html , http://www.answers.com/topic/anti-semitism ]

"They often spoke of anti-Semitism' in somewhat enthusiastic terms."

Examples? Perhaps a reply on the thread dedicated to your Jewish conspiracy theory would be appropriate.

"Given that many Jews at the time were nationalist (that is, pro-British, French, German etc) or internationalist in their perspective, a key initial task for Zionists was to weaken the assimilated value systems of a growing number of Jews."

Examples? Being pro-Israel doesn't necessarily make a Jew not living in another country any less patriotic. Nor is any person having pride (up to a point) in their race/ethnicity a bad thing.

"This was the basis for a considerable amount of common interest and actual collaboration between some elements of the Zionist movement and the Nazi State. Such collaboration has been well documented – see for example Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators A Reappraisal."

If I'm not mistaken few if any historians agree with his interpretation of the evidence.

"…it appears that Hitler did not ultimately accept the Zionist goal of subjugating Arab rights in the Holy Land to those of Jewish settlers – and preferred to posit a 'Jewish State' in other locations…"

Like Auschwitz. Oh yeah you believe that is a myth. You're not alone.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f...ionist_hoax.jpg

"Throughout the post 1945 era, use of the term 'anti-Semitism' has been relatively consistent.

It is now used to attack anyone perceived to threaten Jewish interests."

Though it's true that Jews and Zionists often abuse the term such arguments are used by anti-Semites to deflect criticism of their racism. Sort of like the people in the photo above, they're just "anti -Zionists" who are only "perceived to threaten Jewish interests."

Interestingly, there is a public monument honoring Angleton in Tel Aviv.

According to Victor Marchetti, "Angleton's plaque turned out to be made, not of bronze, but of cardboard. Nor was the setting particularly flattering to Israel's late benefactor: the trees and plaque were at the edge of a garbage dump." Note that the source of this information is not a Zionist site but one Sid (and perhaps Jeff) would approve of – the virulently anti-Semitic Holocaust denying IHR . http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p305_Marchetti.html

Edited October 27, 2006 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Chapter three outlines Mossad's use of false flags in global terrorism--pointing the finger of blame elsewhere. Examples cited include:

USS Liberty--Egypt blamed.

June 28, 1978: Car bomb in Paris kills PLO organiser Mohammed Boubia--Corsican mafia blamed.

In October 1976 Mossad kidnaps West German students Brigitte Schulz and Thomas Reuter from their Paris hotel--neo nazis blamed.

April 5 1986 bombing of La Belle disco in West Berlin--Libyan leader Gaddafi blamed. Reagan attacks Libya.

There is not evidence that I’ve seen that Israel was responsible. I don’t know about the other cases (except the Lavon Affair - no one got hurt). Let not forget that Piper admitted in this thread (or was it the other one?) to being intellectually dishonest.

I could only find one reference to Brigitte Schulz and Thomas Reuter in English:

On 18 January 1976 an El Al Boeing 707 with 110 people on board was bound for Nairobi Airport in Kenya. An hour before it was due to arrive Kenyan police made a routine inspection of the airport perimeter and came across three Arabs crouching by the fence. On the grass beside them were two SAM-7 missile launchers, loaded and ready to be fired. The three Arabs were arrested.

The Soviet-made SAM-7 is fired from the shoulder like a bazooka, but with far more deadly effect. The missile, which carries a high-explosive warhead, and has a range of almost a mile, is guided by a heat-seeking device. Fired at a jet airplane, it would inexorably seek out the hot exhaust from one of the engines and explode on impact. The Arab’s missiles would have blown the El Al airliner to pieces.

Three days late a young West German couple, Thomas Reuter and Brigitte Schulz, both aged twenty-three, flew into Nairobi. The Kenyan police believed them to be members of the German Baader-Meinhof terrorist gang. They also believed that the attack on the El Al airplane had been jointly planned by German and Palestinian terrorists and that Reuter and Schulz had been sent to Nairobi to find out what had gone wrong. The couple were arrested as soon as they reached the airport terminal. They joined the three Arabs in custody. And then all five disappeared.

In response to inquiries from Brigitte Schulz’s parents and the West German government, Kenya denied any knowledge of what had happened to the couple. The first clue to their fate came in June 1976 when German and Palestinian terrorists hijacked an Air France jet and forced the pilot to fly to Entebbe. The daring and celebrated raid by Israeli commandos put an end to that episode but not before the hijackers had listed their demands which included ‘the release of the Nairobi five from imperialist jails in Kenya.’ The evidence that Schulz and Reuter had been involved in the Nairobi plot led to the West German government making fresh demands of Kenya for information about the couple. Kenya categorically denied that she was holding any foreign terrorists. For the first time suspicion dawned that Schulz and Reuter and the three Arabs might somehow have been taken to Israel. The Israeli government denied it.

In December 1976 Schulz’s parents hired an Israeli-born lawyer named Lea Tsemel to find out if the government’s denials were true. Tsemel is a formidable opponent of the Israeli authorities. She regularly represents Arabs who have been arrested in Israel or the Occupied Territories for ‘security’ offences and she defends Jews who refuse to be drafted into the army. In her attempts to find the young German couple she pursued the police; Shin Beth, the internal security service; and the Ministry of Defence without pause. Finally, in late February 1977, with the help of the Israeli courts, Tsemel won an admission that the ‘Nairobi five’ had been taken out of Kenya by Mossad. On 15 march Israel officially informed the West German government that Schulz and Reuter were in custody in Israel. They had been there for fourteen months.

http://saba.fateback.com/plumbat/plumbat20.htm

[Len Colby]

Even in German I only found reference to Schulz and Reuter on three sites. Two were lists one of prisoners (mostly terrorists they were not identified as such) and the other of signers of an anti-war petition (which might not even be the same people). It was hard to make out because I depended on computer translations of the text.

The third was an article from the Berliner Zeitung which is if I’m not mistaken Germany’s best respected newspaper. It’s version was the same as the one posted above. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2000/0108/magazin/0013/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Brigitte%2BSchulz%2522%2B%252B%2522Thomas%2BReuter%2B%2522%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2005-32,GGLG:en

I think Herr. Piper got his facts wrong on this one.

[Len Colby]

Masada, Action and Defense Movement

Base of Operation: France

Founding Philosophy: “Masada, Action and Defense Movement,” is a group that claimed responsibility for three small bombing incidents in France. The first bombing was in October 1972; the target was an Arab bookstore. Some 16 years later, two separate bombings targeted hostels housing North African immigrants.

On the surface, the bombings seem to suggest that Masada was a Jewish terrorist group. At the scene of the 1988 attacks, anti-Muslim leaflets were found bearing Jewish stars, and in a claim of responsibility, a caller to the Nice-Matin newspaper said that “Masada was ‘the secular arm of execution’ of the national council of French Jewish groups.” Even the name of the group, Masada, an ancient Jewish fortress and symbol of resistance, implies a Jewish organization was behind the attacks. However, a year after the bombings, French police arrested several ultra-right extremists who admitted to carrying out the attacks on the hostels, as well as several other bombings. The perpetrators were not Jewish, but were in fact French racists, who had hoped that the hostel bombings would inflame tensions between Arabs and Jews alike. The name “Masada” was a smokescreen for the group's true motivations and goals.

Current Goals: “Masada, Action and Defense Movement” is inactive.

http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=4125

[Pat Speer]

Len, I welcome your involvement in this thread. But encourage you to try and avoid unnecessary labels. I suspect that part of the attraction of readers to Piper is that reading his book is so upsetting to others--this gives the impression there is more substance to his work than one would otherwise suspect. I worked in the record industry. I saw record after record...NWA, Two Live Crew, Ice T, etc. sell millions after being publicly denounced as offensive. There are whole genres of music, from black metal to gangster rap, whose popularity is largely based on the fact they offend others. By denouncing Piper and his supporters as bigots, you, in effect, create a marketable angle for a book that, in fact, probably deserves to die a slow death, like Russo's book blaming it all on Castro, and that other book blaming it all on Madame Nhu.

In an attempt to explain my own views on the subject... In 1963, there was a quagmire of anti-Castro Cubans, mafia figures, right-wing oilmen, American intelligence figures, Cuban intelligence figures, Russian intellgence figures. In the middle of this quagmire was Lansky. Piper's theory holds that Ben-Gurion wanted to kill Kennedy. This is doubtful. Piper's theory holds that Ben-Gurion was desperate to kill Kennedy right away and risk losing the good will of the American people. This is even more doubtful. Piper's theory holds that Ben-Gurion's point man was Lansky, and that Lansky's chief loyalty was to Israel, a country that ultimately rejected him. This is also highly doubtful (although I'd like to see how he ties this together). If LBJ was a puppet for Israel, as purported by Piper, moreover, this exposes a hole in Piper's logic. Since the timing of Kennedy's death had a direct and immediate result in saving LBJ's political career, and since the timing of Kennedy's death was only tangentially related to Israel's nuclear program, a LOGICAL person suspecting Israel's involvement in Kennedy's death would hold that the exact timing of Kennedy's death was determined by LBJ, that Johnson contacted Ben-Gurion and promised him heaps o help in exchange for this one lil favor. Such a scenario might hold water, IMO. That Piper and his readers find it necessary that the orders to kill came from Israel itself, however, reveals an underlying agenda, IMO. One I won't buy into.