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Lee Forman

Loy Factor

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I am surpised at how little information I could turn up on Loy Factor. I found this tale very intriguing. One comment I would make is that 'Oswald' doesn't have to necessarily be Lee Harvey Oswald, but a double that was allowing Factor to be more thoroughly duped. Then it might make the story more believable - for me anyway.

The 'Ruth Ann' individual is interesting. It makes me wonder about the woman arrested by Roger Craig who was trying so hard to leave the parking lot area.

David Perry makes an effort to cast a lot of doubt on the possibility. He has a piece, which I didn't think relevant to post. One of his several weak objections seemed to be about the number of rifles. Again, if we can believe Sam Pate, and I see no reason why we wouldn't, 4 rifles were removed from the TSBD. And I can't help but continue wondering if the one seen by Worrell and others in the "5th or 6th" floor East window was a decoy. Loud and noisy, sticking out the window, throwing flame, etc. And it still fits in with a possible multiple shooter theory from the TSBD - 7th floor East, 6th Floor west, 5th floor East and maybe rooftop.

Does anyone have any additional info on the Loy Factor Factor? Any additional comments? Does anyone recall an account of having seen a Native American looking man about Dallas on 11/22, in the company of an Oswald, a Ruby, etc? The TSBD?

If you consider the possibility of the theory put forward by Kerry Thornley and a 'maximum complicity crime,' coupled with the research which places a mix of US contract hitters, Corsicans and Cubans in DP - the possibility of a Native American thrown into the mix [maybe something also MKULTRA related] is interesting.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:hfifl...s&ct=clnk&cd=11

JFK: The Strange Tale Of Loy Factor & Mac Wallace

by grungepappy 11/22/2003

One striking feature of the Kennedy assassination over the years has been the number of people who have come forward to say they did it, or at least played some active role in it. Some of these stories have been ridiculous from the start and others have looked plausible for a while until they completely unravelled under further investigation.

One story, however, bucked the trend by starting off as implausible and gaining in credibility as the years went by. This is the strange tale of Loy Factor and Malcolm 'Mac' Wallace. It all begins with a man called Mark Collum who contracted hepatitis in 1971. Collum was put in an isolation ward in a hospital where he met another hepatitis carrier, a Native American named Loy Factor. According to Collum's account, Factor was a rather child-like figure who had suffered brain damage while serving in the military during World War II. Factor was serving a 44-year sentence for a murder he claimed he did not do. The two men spent several months together in the isolation ward and became close. One day Factor told Collum that he had been involved in the Kennedy assassination.

Four years later Collum met up with an old schoolfriend, Glen Sample, and told him about his encounter with Factor in hospital. Sample, who by this time was a writer, taped everything that Collum knew and sent it to a journalist friend. Nothing came of it and both men concluded that there was little of any value in Loy Factor's strange story.

However, in 1992 when Oliver Stone's Hollywood blockbuster JFK put the Kennedy assassination back on the front pages, Collum decided to contact Larry Howard who at that time was director of the JFK Assassination Information Centre in Dallas and tell him the Factor story. Howard investigated Factor's background and did some preliminary research into his story and came back with the surprising conclusion that some parts of it checked out. This encouraged Collum and his old friend Sample to get together again and reinterview a by now old and ailing Loy Factor. In 1995 Sample and Collum put out a self-published book called The Men on the Sixth Floor which detailed Factor's story. The book was largely ignored because in the wake of Stone's box office success with JFK the market was deluged with books about the assassination, plus a self-published book is often regarded by the public as not being good enough to find a legitimate publisher. It was also true to say that both Sample's and Collum's general knowledge of the assassination was pretty rudimentary and that as a "confession" story it had limited appeal since by that time a number of people who had claimed to have had a hand in Kennedy's death had been discredited. Most damaging of all was the fact that some elements of the story were patently absurd.

Here, in brief, is Loy Factor's account of the Kennedy assassination. He claims to have met a man called Wallace in 1962 and in the course of the conversation Factor boasted of his shooting and hunting skills. The man was interested and asked for Factor's address. Later he turned up and asked for a demonstration of Factor's shooting ability. Having seen it, the man told Factor that he might have a job for him in the future using his rifle - a job worth $10,000. $2,000 down and the rest when the job was done. Factor accepted the $2,000. He knew that the job would involve shooting somebody. To a poor Native American living in the backwoods, this was a lot of money. A year later the man sent for Factor to do the job. Factor was taken to a house in Dallas where he met Jack Ruby, the man called Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald and a young Hispanic woman, Ruth Ann. They ended up on the sixth-floor of the book depository. [Who Shot JFK? Robin Ramsay. Pocket Essentials, 2002]

There then follows an account of the shooting and its aftermath which is so fanciful as to beggar belief. Apparently all four men each had a rifle. Ruth Ann counted them down to the moment of execution. "One ... two ... three" while waving her hand downward on each number. When she reached three all the gunmen fired (although Factor adds that he himself did not discharge his weapon). Then they fled down the stairs - Ruth Ann and Factor to their parked car, Oswald and Wallace in different directions. Loy was taken to the bus depot to catch a bus home but Ruth Ann and Wallace returned a short time later and drove him out of town.

Now this story has more holes in it than a colander. The fact that Sample and Collum published it indicates that at that time their knowledge of the assassination was sketchy at best. I won't bore you with listing all the discrepancies and inconsistencies it contains. Those interested in following this up can find a devastating critique in David Perry's essay A Few Good Men. To read it Click Here. If you want to visit the the home page of this web site (Kennedy Assassination Home Page) which provides a wealth of information debunking some of the wilder conspiracy theories as well as providing a platform for serious researchers Click Here.

The really fascinating thing about Factor's weird story is his reference to a man called Wallace. He first mentioned this man way back in 1971 when he talked with Mark Collum while both men were in hospital together. He mentioned the name again in 1994 when Collum and his friend Glen Sample interviewed him about the assassination. On both occasions he also had referred to this mysterious Wallace character as Mac. Why this is so fascinating when virtually everything else in his story doesn't hold water will now be revealed.

The cardboard boxes found in the so-called "sniper's nest" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on the afternoon of Nov 22, 1963, were dusted for fingerprints. One print remained unidentified. It belonged neither to Oswald nor any other employee of the Book Depository or any of the workers who were in that week fixing the floors. In May 1998 (i.e. 27 years after Factor first mentioned Mac Wallace to Collum and 4 years after he mentioned him again to Sample and Collum) Walt Brown, author of four books on the assassination, representing a 'group of Texas researchers, called a press conference in Dallas to announce that the single unidentified print had now been identified as belonging to one Malcolm 'Mac' Wallace, the man who featured in Sample and Collum's account of the assassination.

The identification was made by A. Nathan Darby, a Certified Latent Print Examiner with several decades experience. Mr Darby affirmed that he made a 14-point match between the "unknown" fingerprint and a "blind" print card submitted to him, which was the 1951 print of Malcolm 'Mac' Wallace. U.S. law requires a 12-point match for legal identification so Darby's match exceeded the legal requirement. Of real significance is the fact that the previously unidentified print was on a cardboard box found at the sniper's nest. Cardboard does not retain a fingerprint for long, so it is virtually certain - and would be accepted by the police as such - that Malcolm 'Mac' Wallace left his fingerprint on "Box A" on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on the morning of Nov 22, 1963. It is possible, of course, that the print identified as Wallace's was planted there to implicate an innocent man. This seems somewhat far-fetched, however. Why leave it on cardboard rather than on, say, a rifle where it will survive for much longer?

In terms of physical evidence this represents the single biggest breakthrough in the case since 1963. So far, however, the major media have shown little or no interest. This is quite astonishing when you consider that commentators are continually asking for some kind of physical, tangible evidence to lend support to the theory that Oswald was not a lone assassin.

Be that as it may we now have to take a closer look at Malcolm 'Mac' Wallace. Who was he? Where did he come from? What did he do for a living? The answers will surprise you.

http://home.earthlink.net/~sixthfloor/meetloy.htm

One more....is it worth it to buy the book to read Chapter 6?

Meet Loy Factor - read his story...

Chapter 5

The Factor Tapes (a portion of the book: THE MEN ON THE SIXTH FLOOR

COPYRIGHT 1995 by Collom and Sample)

When Mark and Larry finally reached Loy's home, they were surprised to find that he had developed a serious heart problem, and was at a nearby hospital. Mark and Larry, along with Ron Atteberry, another reasearcher, drove to the hospital, and walked into Loy's hospital room, tape rolling. Loy was, to say the least, surprised by his visitors, but was very friendly, and after a few minutes of conversation began to remember Mark - it had, after all, been over 20 years.

Mark assured Loy that he believed him to be innocent of the murder of his wife.

"I don't know if you remember me, but I spent a lot of time up there with you, going over the trial transcripts, and I want you to know that I believe you, I believe that it was your stepdaughter."

"Yeah it was her." Loy responded.

"I believe it was."

"It was her, and she done all this, and I went through this whole thing..."

"You told me that she did it for money."

"Yeah."

"Do you remember telling me that?"

"Yeah, her and that boy she was with."

"What was his name, Sam Davis?"

"Sam Davis - he died you know... he used to come up there and

he'd hang around all the time, you know, tried to take her off.

He caused a lot of trouble."

Then the subject of the assassination was carefully addressed.

"Loy, do you remember how you told me you got the money - the $10,000?"

"Yeah."

"That you were involved down there....with Kennedy?"

"Yeah."

"And how you went to Sam Rayburn's funeral, and that fella

contacted you on the street? You remember telling me that?"

"Yeah..."

"You were involved with that weren't you."

"Yeah, I was kinda.. I was a little bit in it."

"We'd like to know the true story. It doesn't scare you to talk about it does it?"

"No."

Loy's reluctance to elaborate was understandable. Confined to a hospital bed, two strangers and one barely recognizable old friend barge in, asking probing questions about his sordid past. Furthermore, the Indian was sedated. Nonetheless, his memory was still sharp enough to recall many details of the past.

"What did they pay you the $10,000 to do?"

Loy stammered through an unconvincing explanation of how he merely assisted the group, that the woman was the radio operator, Oswald and the man who hired Loy were the shooters and that he had been nothing more than some sort of back up.

He reaffirmed the story of Sam Rayburn's funeral, and his chance meeting with the stranger, the target practice incident, and his being picked up and driven to Dallas two days before the assassination. He told of the little house that served as the base of operation, the individuals at the house, including the appearance of Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald.

He stated that after the shots were fired, everyone but Oswald escaped out the back door of the book building, he and the young woman leading the way. Larry Howard prodded Mark to ask the Indian about the elevator.

"Did you use the elevators or the stairs?" Mark asked.

"We went by stairs."

"So you went out the back of the building?"

"Yeah, back towards the north side." (the back door did face north. Loy was very exact when it came to directions.)

Larry, excitedly joined in the questioning.

"What did the back look like when you went out...when you

went out the back, north?"

"It was kind of empty-like. It looked like some kind of dock."

"Dock?"

"Yeah, dock."

"Like a loading dock?"

"Yeah."

"Was it concrete?"

"No, like a porch, kinda like a porch."

The three men looked at each other, and then at Loy. Larry was impressed with this small detail that the man had just related. How did this Indian know that in 1963 the Texas School Book Depository Building had on it's north side a loading dock? (It was later removed)

"This guy knows what he's talking about," Mark whispered to Larry. Loy added that when he went out the back no one was there, since everyone was out in front, watching the motorcade. Loy and the young woman got into a car and drove away from the scene. Loy was dropped off at the bus depot.

"The bus depot is where Oswald went after the shooting," Larry informed Mark.

Loy was getting very tired at this point, and so the interviewers decided to cut it short, and come back the next day, to which Loy agreed. At this point, before leaving, Mark exorted Loy to allow us to write a book about his involvement with the assassins, the truth about his wife's murder, and his life story. Loy consented, but insisted that if any story was written, it must contain the truth. Mark assured him that finding the truth was the very reason he had come all the way to Oklahoma.

The next morning the trio arrived at the hospital prepared to ask more questions, but were informed by the nursing staff that Factor no longer wished to see the visitors. Mark was disappointed, but was heartened when Larry reminded him that the Indian's reaction was quite normal, under the circumstances. He had probably pondered overnight about what he had told his three visitors, and had become afraid. We decided to give it a rest for a few weeks, then write a letter to him, requesting another interview. Under the circumstances, that was all we could do.

Weeks later, to our delight, Loy responded favorably to our request. He had been released from the hospital and was back home again. With Loy's fragile health temporarily in our favor, we made immediate plans to fly to Oklahoma!

Edited by Lee Forman

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[color=#33CC00]

Does anyone have any additional info on the Loy Factor Factor? [/color]

Lee,

Yes it's worth the $10.00 to get this book, I think. It's a fascinating read!

Sample has not updated his site in some time, and back in 98 or so he was

contesting that Nathan Darby had made an accurate print match. (Of Mac Wallace to the latent). But then Sample traveled to

Austin Tx and interviewed Nathan at length and left convinced that his California cops did not know what they were talking about.

I have not ever seen Loy mentioned aywhere but in this book (The Men on the Sixth Floor). (And in a video made by Lyle Sardie- pretty rare. I have a copy and have not looked at it in years but I think it refers to Loy Factor).

A friend of mine here- (Richard Bartholomew)- also thought Ruth Ann may have been the woman

referred to by Craig.

Dawn

ps I take Dave Perry with a grain of salt, he's out to debunk just about everything it seems.

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Lee,

I'm not sure if this relates to the events of Dallas but in October of 1968, Factor grabbed his 4 year old son and took off into the hills of southeastern Oklahoma. A murder warrant had been issued for Factor's arrest after his wife, Juanita, had been found strangled and buried in a shallow grave.

Even though Factor had lost a leg due to a rattlesnake bite, suffered diabetes and was subject to epileptic seisures, he had managed to escape bloodhounds, airplanes and hundreds of searchers. How this drama ended, I don't know.

As to Ruth Ann, there is the possibility that this is Maria del Carmen. If you Google her and Richard Case Nagell you will find some interesting information.

FWIW.

James

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Lee,

I'm not sure if this relates to the events of Dallas but in October of 1968, Factor grabbed his 4 year old son and took off into the hills of southeastern Oklahoma. A murder warrant had been issued for Factor's arrest after his wife, Juanita, had been found strangled and buried in a shallow grave.

Even though Factor had lost a leg due to a rattlesnake bite, suffered diabetes and was subject to epileptic seisures, he had managed to escape bloodhounds, airplanes and hundreds of searchers. How this drama ended, I don't know.

As to Ruth Ann, there is the possibility that this is Maria del Carmen. If you Google her and Richard Case Nagell you will find some interesting information.

FWIW.

James

Thanks James.

Do you know if that is the same 'Maria Del Carmen' referenced in the Warren Report as Carlos Bringuier's sister?

Anyway - thanks - I am interested in looking her up.

- lee

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Do you know if that is the same 'Maria Del Carmen' referenced in the Warren Report as Carlos Bringuier's sister? (Lee Forman)

:) To be honest, Lee, I wouldn't think so but I don't really know.

Maria del Carmen worked for the Mexican Treasury Department. CIA guy Barney Hidalgo claimed she was a member of the Communist Party in Mexico.

The question is, was she a part of that alleged cell which included Factor, Wallace and the young Cuban man?

James

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FWIW the wife of Warren Caster was named Ruthanna. She was likely Hispanic, judging both by the form of the name ("Ruth Ann" is not Hispanic) and the fact that she and Caster met in college in New Mexico. (Caster is the man who bought two rifles on 11/20/63 and showed them off in the TSBD. He was out of town at the time of the assassination; it was his second-floor office in which Carol Hughes, who was not questioned by the WC, was on the phone and wouldn't answer the locked door when Geneva Hine was knocking and calling out right after the shooting.)

And as if to aggravate us poor CT souls who are fed up with coincidences, one of the people who run the Sixth Floor Museum is named Ruth Ann Rugg.

Ominously, anagrams of Ruth Ann Rugg seem to describe the shooting:

HURT! RUN, GANG

as well as Oswald's subsequent Raleigh call:

GUN RANG HURT

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Following Glen's lead I've done a bit of work on Factor. Unfortunately the continuing

issues with the print ID have led me keep the work unpublished....it's a continuation of

the Estes/Carter study which John has in the seminar area.

Anyone interested can email me and I'll send it along...it's pretty speculative, more so than

what I would normally put in print.

-- Larry

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[quote name='Larry Hancock' date='Feb 25 2006, 06:31 AM' post='56501']

Following Glen's lead I've done a bit of work on Factor. Unfortunately the continuing

issues with the print ID have led me keep the work unpublished....it's a continuation of

the Estes/Carter study which John has in the seminar area.

Anyone interested can email me and I'll send it along...it's pretty speculative, more so than

what I would normally put in print.

-- Larry

A few weeks ago I received an email asking if I knew how to find the second print expert

in Barr McClellan's book, as well as how to find Jay Harrison's work. I was able to supply this man- who is making a documentary for tv in Japan- with the phone number for the print expert, as well as Jay's beneficiary. However I warned him that I was not sure if this man even knew his print-match-findings were in a book as after he made the match- blind like Nathan had- he then found out just who he had matched and became extremely frightened and did not wish to proceed in any fashion. So sadly this is where this evidence sits: Two experts have made the match.

Larry there may be help from another source too but I am not at liberty to say where at the moment. Clearly however this is a very hot topic.

Dawn

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Dawn, I too think the way that the second expert pulled out from under Barr once he

found out the implications is very critical. Heaven knows what expert would have the

courage to stake a career on this ID.

Richard's work on the unidentified prints is excellant and I wish it had wider distribution, I

happened to get a copy and do reference it in the material I mentioned.

This is one of those "tipping points" that could rewrite history officially, no wonder its so

hot.

I've been keeping my fingers crossed for a good while on this....Larry

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Lee, I highly recommend Glen Sample's book "The Men on the Sixth Floor". I picked up a copy when I was in Dallas in November. It includes a detailed account of Loy Factor's involvement in the assassination. He also names Mac Wallace as being another shooter.

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Lee, I highly recommend Glen Sample's book "The Men on the Sixth Floor". I picked up a copy when I was in Dallas in November. It includes a detailed account of Loy Factor's involvement in the assassination. He also names Mac Wallace as being another shooter.

Yes I would agree -it has a lot of excellent information in it about not only Wallace but Lyndon Johnson. An interesting point I just remembered, looking through it now, is that the book mentions a ossible link between George De Morenschildt and Malcolm Wallace. They both attended the University of Texas in the 1940's. Of course this doesn't prove they knew each other but another intriguing coincidence and if they did know each other, this would explain a lot of things to me. Could Wallace and DeMohrenschidlt have met and become aquainted then? Perhaps Wallace was brought into the plot years later in 63 through DeMohrenschildt? To me this would explain how Wallace might have met LHO.

Also, congressman Jack B. Brooks who can be seen behind LBJ in the swearing in photo onboard AF One, was a classmate of Wallace, as was Horace Busby, who later became an advisor to LBJ.

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Do you know if that is the same 'Maria Del Carmen' referenced in the Warren Report as Carlos Bringuier's sister? (Lee Forman)

:o To be honest, Lee, I wouldn't think so but I don't really know.

Maria del Carmen worked for the Mexican Treasury Department. CIA guy Barney Hidalgo claimed she was a member of the Communist Party in Mexico.

James

Maria del Carmen in Mexico City was NOT Carlos Bringuier's sister. But you are close. Carlos' sister was named Maria del Carmin, but she moved to New Orleans in about '61, with 4 of her 6 kids. She left behind a daughter named Maria del Carmen and a son, Jorge. Maria married a Czech communist named Drago, and was approx. 25 years old in '63. The daughter, Carlos Bringuier's niece, could be the Maria del Carmen of Mexico City.

The son born in '41, Jorge Medina Bringuier, became a 20 year old G-2 agent and penetrated the Cuban AMSPELL (DRE) group. He may have been known as "Mongo" and "AMFED-1". After arresting the Cuban DRE, Jorge was sent to Germany and defected in late'63/ early '64. Barry Hidalgo was specifically moved to Berlin to handle the defection because of his relationship with the family.

How is it that uncle Carlos, the lone NOLA delegate of DRE, had a niece and nephew working against him for Cuba?

Also, how is it that CIA Barry Hidalgo had a working relationship with Carlos' sister Maria in NOLA, Carlos' niece Maria in MexiCity and Carlos' nephew Jorge in Cuba - but there is no mention of a relationship between Carlos and Barry Hidalgo??

Edited by Brian Benson

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On 2/24/2006 at 0:46 PM, Lee Forman said:

Those interested in following this up can find a devastating critique in David Perry's essay A Few Good Men. To read it Click Here. If you want to visit the the home page of this web site (Kennedy Assassination Home Page) which provides a wealth of information debunking some of the wilder conspiracy theories as well as providing a platform for serious researchers Click Here.

I am always curious about broken links and crossed-out info. Also, the Loy Factor story is interesting, so this may be worth a bump.

David Perry's essay: "A few Good Men."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/goodmen.txt

Edited by Michael Clark

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All very fascinating! Does anyone know why James Richards (Feb 24, 2006 post) suggested that “Ruth Ann” is possibly Richard Case Nagell’s contact, “Maria del Carmen”?

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