HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Guest]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:22 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

The more I've familiarized myself with the evidence, the more I'm coming to believe that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady didn't lie after all.

Please hear me out.

First, I want to say that I believe the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter never took place. It was concocted to remove Oswald from the 1st floor during the shooting.

Second, I want to say that I don't believe Officer Baker entered the TSBD until at least three minutes after the shooting. The film evidence shows that his "mad dash" wasn't aimed at the TSBD entrance, but rather at the Elm/Houston intersection just to the east. And WC testimony indicates that Baker indeed did enter the TSBD late. (Not the 20 to 30 seconds we all hear.)

That said, it has occurred to me that there are no difficulties with the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady. They don't seem to contradict much if anything that is widely believed among CTers. Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies agree with one another, and the following approximate timeline can be drawn from their accounts:

Shelley & Lovelady Timeline:

00:00  Heard last shot at TSBD steps.
03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps. Informs them of Kennedy being shot. Did not happen.
03:30  They arrive at island across the street. Shelley sees Truly & Baker at TSBD steps. Same
04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25
           steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are
           75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.) Nope did not happen either.
05:30  Arrive at railroad yard.
07:00  Enter west door of TSBD. Lovelady sees girl, won't swear to her being
          Victoria Adams.Oh sure.

According to both Shelley and Lovelady, it took about 3 minutes after the shooting for Gloria Calvery to arrive at the TSBD steps. And according to both, Truly and Baker don't enter the TSBD till shortly after that. Not true the earlier statements completely contradict this.

Many researchers still believe Officer Baker was intent on running directly into the TSBD, but the films prove otherwise. Shelley and Lovelady testify otherwise. Only one other witness saw Baker run into the TSBD. I need to check with her testimony again and see when she thought Baker entered.

Many researchers believe that Shelley and Lovelady are the two men seen, in the films, walking down Elm Street extension. But this belief has problems. One is that Lovelady can still be seen on the TSBD steps. No he cannot, the Unger GIF for starters shows that Lovelady is making his way down with Shelley following in his footsteps (from the enlargement I have posted already some other time) The blond guy you refer to is not Lovelady, his blond haircut is a clear giveaway. He can't be both there and walking down the extension simultaneously! Of the two guys walking down the street, the one identified as Shelley is taller than the one identified as Lovelady. The problem with that is that Robert Prudhomme has shown that Shelley is very likely the shorter of the two. (He's working to confirm this.) Wrong about that too, have a look at the pix yourself at the Shelley page.

It's looking more and more like Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies fit just fine with the other evidence. And that there is no reason to suspect lies.Come again?

The goal of this thread is to determine whether this hypothesis is viable, or if factor I have not considered make it unlikely or impossible. How about right now?

After studying carefully the testimony of Victoria Adams, I have concluded that she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady when she arrived at the bottom of the stairs, unless she came down much later then when she said. It is my belief that she did come down quickly, and that the part of her testimony about seeing Shelley and Lovelady must have been added by the Feds in order to discredit her timing. There is compelling evidence and testimony supporting this allegation. And with that assessment do you not think it is worth considering that both their testimonies are fingered with regards to their "observations" of Baker/Truly. And their so called stay on the steps of up to 3 minutes which just beggars belief. Especially when BWF confirmed they left right away!

In order to keep this thread focused on finding facts I've missed, I don't want to have Victoria Adam's testimony debated here. That can be debated on a dedicated thread.

 

 

Table of Contents

Accepted Range of Witness-Perceived Timing

Testimony Sources:  See below.

 

 

 

Testimony Sources

Interrogations of Oswald

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Early DPD Affidavits

Bill Shelley:  http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif
Billy Lovelady:  http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif

You need to add the written and typed up ones, since there are differences due to crossed out bits in Lovelady's affidavit!

FBI Interviews

Victoria Adams:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (Original interview. See page 2.)
Victoria Adams:  http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle-1.jpg
          (This is a re-interview supposedly done because first interview was destroyed in a fire.)

VA interview is a DPD interview and not FBI

Bill Shelley:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          ( See page 84.)
Billy Lovelady:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          ( See page 62.)

WC Testimony

Victoria Adams:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Bill Shelley:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
Billy Lovelady:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

Any HSCA testimony on the go?

See my replies in bold red above.

And more below.

 

Where is Lovelady's Nov 22nd FBI interview? I did make mention of this.

Here it is

 

 

Where is his Secret Service Report?

Here you go.

 

Shelley's Nov 23rd FBI report anyone?

 

Shelley SS Report

Saw him last at noon.

 

Meanwhile.....yup still there:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Paul Trejo]

So, Bart, what you are trying to say here is that you believe LHO really was on the first floor of the TSBD when the JFK shots were fired, and that all of the TSBD employees there at the front door of the TSBD really knew it -- and those who testified all lied to the Warren Commission about this?

Further, you are saying that Truly-Baker completely invented that story about meeting a Coke-drinking LHO on the 2nd floor within 90 seconds of the JFK shooting?

So, your CT is that all of the TSBD workers who testified to the WC were part of a conspiracy to frame LHO with lies?

Is that correct?  If so, I disagree.  It would be impossible to manage that depth of deception among so many people of so many different walks of life.  They had nothing to gain from this.  There was no motive.

It's far more likely, IMHO, that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker were all telling the truth, but were challenged regarding their TIMING.  Of the TIMING estimates, Truly-Baker had the advantage of reconstructing their actions with a professional team with stopwatches.  Also, Shelley and Lovelady agree on the basics.   Only Vickie Adams was way off in her TIMING estimates -- which can be explained by the stress of the JFK crisis.

Thus, LHO was on the 2nd floor when JFK was assassinated.  That's what the WC evidence ultimately reveals.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

42 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ray, 

Are you willing to show us how fast YOU can run while wearing three-inch heels?

Can you really compare the speed of a runner wearing sneakers, compared to wearing three-inch heels?

Surely, people will do anything for publicity and a stunt.  My statement about Vickie Adams "running" in three-inch heels was very specific.

But you knew that.

You are clearly running out of logical arguments when you have to resort to rank comedy.

--Paul Trejo

Not at all. You said "nobody can run in high heels." The video showed that loads of women can run in high heels if they so wish. You were wrong. 

[Paul Trejo]

11 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Not at all. You said "nobody can run in high heels." The video showed that loads of women can run in high heels if they so wish. You were wrong. 

You're way too literal, dude.

[Paul Trejo]

Bart,

The fibbers to the WC were not the TSBD employees -- they were the Dallas ranking officers themselves, who gave a twisted account of the last words of Lee Harvey Oswald.

It seems to me that you are relying almost entirely on the words of Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Sorrels-Bookhout to make your case.  And yet none of these were eye-witnesses at the TSBD.  Instead, they had every motive to forge a false portrait of LHO to the WC and to the world.

Again I say to Sandy -- the most important challenge to Shelly-Lovelady is not Vickie Adams, or even Truly-Baker, but first and foremost the Dallas ranking officers: Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Sorrels-Bookhout, because they said that LHO was on the first floor there with Shelley-Lovelady.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ray Mitcham]

3 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

You're way too literal, dude.

No You said the following

 

"As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me.  It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO.   Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running."  Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels.   The language is too ambiguous. "

 I have demonstrated that they can. If you think I am being too literal, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions.

 

I you really believe normal women can't run in high heels then have a look at some guys doing the same.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul

Although we are debating many points here, I think we may actually not be that far apart on many things.

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I agree with you that some people walk slower than others.  We also tend to walk slightly slower when walking with others, and Vickie was walking with Sandra.  Also, consider this:

Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?
Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.

THREE-INCH HEELS!!  These are not sports sneakers!  Honestly -- how fast can any person walk while wearing three-inch heels?

As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me.  It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO.   Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running."  Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels.   The language is too ambiguous.  

It's aximoatic that '3 inch heels' aren't 'sports sneakers'! And yes I would agree, fundamentally, that if Adams was wearing 'sneakers' she would have been quicker than in her heels. And indeed, for clarification, in her heels she would be slower than had she been wearing 'sneakers'. I have no problem with that at all...

You state unequivocally that "nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels" - you also state that the language is too ambigious. In stating that the language is too ambigious you have almost answered your own point; the word 'run' itself is very ambigious. Here is a list of some words that are synonyms of 'run' - race, rush, sprint, trot, gallop, scamper, dash, amble. I'm sure we could play a game of putting them in to some kind of order as to what kind of speed they imply but it would be pointless to do so. Why not just say that when Adams said 'run' she meant faster than walking (whatever that actual speed may have entailed!).

On the subject of 3 inch heels...

For informational purposes, both Gucci and Jimmy Choo (and no doubt other famous shoe companies) call a heel that is less than 2.5 inches a 'low heel', a heel that is between 2.5 and 3.5 inches a 'mid heel and anything above that is a 'high heel'...

Also the height of the heel itself does not factor in the size of the bottom of the heel which can vary quite widely between shoes! The heel could taper down quite significantly to the bottom, or not taper at all, the width/size of the actual heel could be different sizes... a quick Google search of '3 inch heels' will show the differences that are out there... the width/size of the actual bottom of the heel would no doubt have an affect on how quickly a person could run in them, but that is not the same as saying that 'nobody can 'run' while wearing three-inch heels'.

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The real question is why Belin was pressuring Vickie Adams to estimate the TIMING of her journey.  It was a pop quiz, evidently, and Vickie had not thought it through -- but Belin demanded a quick answer.  Why?  Let us say, for the sake of argument, that Belin only meant "returned to the front door of the TSBD" as you are arguing, Alistair.  But why did he bother to press the issue at all?  What was he seeking?

IMHO, Belin wanted to know these factors: (i) did Vickie see LHO on the stairs down; (ii) did Vickie see Truly-Baker at any point; (iii) did Vickie see LHO leaving the TSBD; (iv) what did Vickie see near the Grassy Knoll parking lot?

The TIMING is crucial for all these major questions about the JFK assassination.  (Especially the the WC/FBI was covering up a shooter on the Grassy Knoll.)   Yet the result for the WC was a total blank, because Vickie's answer to all those questions was NO, NOTHING, NADA, ZIP.

First, replace 'pressuring', demanded a quick, 'press the issue' with 'asking', 'asked an', 'ask' and you have a much more reasonable question...

What was he seeking? Well, you went on to answer that question, and I have no objections on that point.

As to the why, though... well, Adams was a very important witness (hint: stairs), in much the same way both Truly and Baker were very important witnesses (hint: stairs) and as such the questioning would be more detailed and more in depth becuase of it's relevancy to what is essence a very crucial essence of it all; more detailed and more in depth than it would be for less important witnesses like Shelley and Lovelady (hint: no stairs).

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(1.1)  One thing all these WC witnesses agree upon is that they did meet each other briefly on the 1st floor of the TSBD following the JFK assassination. 

Actually, as I have demonstrated earlier they did not meet each other at all. I have quoted my previous comment below and have added emphasis in bold.

 

8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Also you have Adams having an 'entire conversation' with Shelley and Lovelady - where are you getting that from?

As per the testimony of Adams there was no conversation, she never stopped to talk to them...

Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.

(Yes Belin uses the word 'encountered', but later on in the testimony Adams 'corrects' that to 'saw')

We can look at what both Shelley and Lovelady said in their testimonies about this 'encounter' and see if that leads to your conclusion of an 'entire conversation' between Adams and Shelley and Lovelady.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?
Mr. SHELLEY - I sure don't remember.
Mr. BALL - You don't.
Mr. SHELLEY - No.

&

Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Taking all three of those in to account a logical inference can easily be made as to what actually happened at that time from each of their perspective... without going in to that too deeply, suffice to say, taking all three of those in to account we can safely say that the three of them did not stop together as a 'group' and have an entire conversation.

 

Earlier (before I posted the original post that I have quoted myself from) you had the 3 of them stopping to have an entire conversation - you then seem to have retracted that slightly to 'meet each other briefly'.... if the WC testimony of all 3 of them is to be believed not one of them stated that they met at all!

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(5-6) I will grant, Alistair, on the basis of the testimony of Shelly-Lovelady, that their exchange of words with Vickie and Sandra appears to have been a brief greeting -- as if they were never really friends, but only saw each other inside the TSBD every week or so -- so they had no reason to stop and chat. 

On the testimony (See above) of Shelley and Lovelady there was no exchange of words with Vickie (and Sandra). The only words came from Adams (having 'saw' Shelley and Lovelady) but there was no response - by definition, it can't be an exchange of words if there was no response!

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

CONCLUSION:  Alistair, you say there has to be a "limit" to the amount of error that a given witness has regarding TIMING, and I say that if there is such a "limit", it is far greater than you are allowing.  There was one doctor at Parkland, for example, whose timing estimate for his activity with JFK was off by more than a half-hour, which was pointed out for him by the WC attorneys.  I repeat: unless a person is actively looking at his watch during crisis moments, it is easy to get confused with regard to TIMING.
 

Vickie Adams was an office worker who had previously been a school teacher. Can a fair comparison thus be made between that and a Doctor? An office worker and school teacher are more likely to have 'regimented' times (start time/break time/lunch time/end time) than a Doctor would have.

eg: (and I'm not trying to draw direct comparison here between this and the case of Vickie Adams or this and the case of the Doctor, but offer it up to explain a comparison between the two occupations)

I personally know a 'classroom assistant at a Secondary school' that has a working week during term time of Monday/Tuesday/Thursday Start 8:45am, Break 10:25am till 10:30am, Lunch 12:20pm till 1:05pm Finish 3:45pm and Wednesady/Friday Start 8:45am, Break 10:25am till 10:30am, Lunch 12:20pm till 1:05pm Finish 2:45pm.

I personally know a 'Midwife' who works 12 hour shifts on a 3 days on/3 days off/4 days on/4days off schedule. With no set breaktime or lunchtime (the nature of the job entails there can't be) and indeed the nature of the job means that they could be called in on their days off and/or their end of shift may be delayed!

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

So -- if you are now ready to say that Vickie's STEPS account for 10 minutes and not 5 minutes, Alistair, here is the crucial question: Are you ready to explain the WC testimony DISCREPANCY between the TIMING of the meeting of Vickie, Sandra and Shelley-Lovelady?
 

First, for clarity I don't think it was 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes, but I do think it was less than 10 and more than 5. Closer to 10 than 5 perhaps but not that close to 10!

Secondly for clarity it has to be said that I am of the opinion that some people overestimate time and others underestimate time, both during and after events, some people could be more cavalier with their timings whilst others could be more reserved with their timings. Also some people are more keen to be accurate than others, and also that some people 'care' more.

Am I ready to explain the Adams - Shelley/Lovelady timing issue, well let's put it this way I am capable just now of putting them at that location at the same time quite easily! As for explaining it in depth? That's going to take a while! As for proving it? That will be a hard sell.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Alistair Briggs]

 

P.S. just to briefly back up what Ray has brought to the table...

The statement nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels  only needs one example of somebody running while wearing heels to prove that the statement is false. Ray has given one example and that alone has falsified the statement.

Kudos, Ray

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

No You said the following

"As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me.  It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO.   Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running."  Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels.   The language is too ambiguous. "

 I have demonstrated that they can. If you think I am being too literal, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions.

I you really believe normal women can't run in high heels then have a look at some guys doing the same.

Ray,

If you will read carefully, you will notice that I placed the word "run" in quotation marks.  That means it is a figure of speech.  You are taking it literally.  That is your literary mistake.   

My point -- and I repeat it -- is that there is no way that Vickie Adams walked -- in three-inch high-heels -- from the 4th floor South of the TSBD to the North of the TSBD, down to the 1st floor, met Shelley-Lovelady, outside the Northern dock of the TSBD, out to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, met a DPD cop there, turned around, returned to the TSBD at the South, front entrance, met Molina-Davis there, then proceeded West to the corner of Houston and Elm where she listened to a DPD motorcycle radio report, observed people on the corner, one of whom she wondered later might have been Jack Ruby, then returned to the entrance of the TSBD, which was being guarded by a DPD cop, and re-entered the building...

...all within 5 minutes.

I repeat that the three-inch high-heels would have slowed her down, even if she was in a hurry.   This is common sense.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul

Although we are debating many points here, I think we may actually not be that far apart on many things.

 <snip>

Am I ready to explain the Adams - Shelley/Lovelady timing issue, well let's put it this way I am capable just now of putting them at that location at the same time quite easily! As for explaining it in depth? That's going to take a while! As for proving it? That will be a hard sell.

Alistair,

Forget about the "proving" for the time being.  I would like to hear your current thinking about it.  Did Vickie-Sandra "see" Shelley-Lovelady at the 1st floor of the TSBD approximately 7-10 minutes after the JFK shooting?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul

I think I can put them in the same vicinity (back of 1st floor) to 'see' each other at approx. 3 minutes after the last shots.

 

*As I said though, it is going to be a hard sell.

Regards

P.S. For my analysis I am containing myself just to their WC testimony alone (I do understand the limitations that may have)

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul

I think I can put them in the same vicinity (back of 1st floor) to 'see' each other at approx. 3 minutes after the last shots.

*As I said though, it is going to be a hard sell.

Regards

P.S. For my analysis I am containing myself just to their WC testimony alone (I do understand the limitations that may have)

Alistair,

So you seek a compromise -- between 1.5 minutes and 7 minutes is about 3 minutes.  Yet this would require Shelley and Lovelady to run from the TSBD steps to the Grassy Knoll, accompany an officer to the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll, look around for about 90 seconds, and then return to the TSBD west entrance in about 3 minutes.   Would this be possible?  Let's review:

(1)  Gloria Calvary ran up from the Grassy Knoll, exclaimed she had seen JFK shot, confirmed it, and then Shelley and Lovelady ran to the "little old island".  (30 SECONDS)

(2) Shelley-Lovelady looked back to see Truly-Baker enter the TSBD (5 SECONDS)

(3) They ran to the parking lot with a DPD officer (10 SECONDS)

(4) They looked around the parking lot (90 SECONDS)

(5) They sauntered back to the TSBD west entrance (60 SECONDS).

TOTAL ESTIMATE: 3 minutes and 15 seconds.

OK, that is within the realm of plausibility.  I can see that the physical steps match.  Also, it more closely matches Vickie Adams' estimate that she and Sandra spent very little time on the 4th floor after the JFK shots.

I would point out that this scenario confirms that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker were all telling the Truth to the best of their ability.

It also confirms, IMHO, that the real fabricators were Fritz-Holmes-Bookhout-Sorrels-Hosty-Weissman-Klause-Surrey-Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 9, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

On 1/1/2017 at 6:22 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

The more I've familiarized myself with the evidence, the more I'm coming to believe that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady didn't lie after all.

Please hear me out.

First, I want to say that I believe the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter never took place. It was concocted to remove Oswald from the 1st floor during the shooting.

Second, I want to say that I don't believe Officer Baker entered the TSBD until at least three minutes after the shooting. The film evidence shows that his "mad dash" wasn't aimed at the TSBD entrance, but rather at the Elm/Houston intersection just to the east. And WC testimony indicates that Baker indeed did enter the TSBD late. (Not the 20 to 30 seconds we all hear.)

That said, it has occurred to me that there are no difficulties with the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady. They don't seem to contradict much if anything that is widely believed among CTers. Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies agree with one another, and the following approximate timeline can be drawn from their accounts:

Shelley & Lovelady Timeline:

00:00  Heard last shot at TSBD steps.
03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps. Informs them of Kennedy being shot. Did not happen.
03:30  They arrive at island across the street. Shelley sees Truly & Baker at TSBD steps. Same
04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25
           steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are
           75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.) Nope did not happen either.
05:30  Arrive at railroad yard.
07:00  Enter west door of TSBD. Lovelady sees girl, won't swear to her being
          Victoria Adams.Oh sure.

Bart,

You can't just say it "did not happen" and call that an argument. You have to back up what you say.

Hopefully you do that below.

 

According to both Shelley and Lovelady, it took about 3 minutes after the shooting for Gloria Calvery to arrive at the TSBD steps. And according to both, Truly and Baker don't enter the TSBD till shortly after that. Not true the earlier statements completely contradict this.

You say it is not true. But it is true according to their WC testimony! As for your so-called contradiction, I disagree. I see no contradiction at all. What I see is a detail given in the WC testimony that wasn't given in first-day statements.

We can argue this point specifically if you want, and back our arguments with the testimonies. But right now I have to address the other things you've written in your post.

Many researchers still believe Officer Baker was intent on running directly into the TSBD, but the films prove otherwise. Shelley and Lovelady testify otherwise. Only one other witness saw Baker run into the TSBD. I need to check with her testimony again and see when she thought Baker entered.

Many researchers believe that Shelley and Lovelady are the two men seen, in the films, walking down Elm Street extension. But this belief has problems. One is that Lovelady can still be seen on the TSBD steps. No he cannot, the Unger GIF for starters shows that Lovelady is making his way down with Shelley following in his footsteps (from the enlargement I have posted already some other time) The blond guy you refer to is not Lovelady, his blond haircut is a clear giveaway. 

We can argue this specifically if you want. What you call his blond hair, I call his forehead and scalp showing through his thinning hair with the bright sunlight on it.

There is no video showing Lovelady leaving the steps.

He can't be both there and walking down the extension simultaneously! Of the two guys walking down the street, the one identified as Shelley is taller than the one identified as Lovelady. The problem with that is that Robert Prudhomme has shown that Shelley is very likely the shorter of the two. (He's working to confirm this.) Wrong about that too, have a look at the pix yourself at the Shelley page.

Well then you disagree with Robert's argument. We can argue this specifically too.

It's looking more and more like Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies fit just fine with the other evidence. And that there is no reason to suspect lies.Come again?

That is what this thread is all about.

The goal of this thread is to determine whether this hypothesis is viable, or if factor I have not considered make it unlikely or impossible. How about right now?

Fine. But one thing at a time, okay?

After studying carefully the testimony of Victoria Adams, I have concluded that she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady when she arrived at the bottom of the stairs, unless she came down much later then when she said. It is my belief that she did come down quickly, and that the part of her testimony about seeing Shelley and Lovelady must have been added by the Feds in order to discredit her timing. There is compelling evidence and testimony supporting this allegation. And with that assessment do you not think it is worth considering that both their testimonies are fingered with regards to their "observations" of Baker/Truly. And their so called stay on the steps of up to 3 minutes which just beggars belief. Especially when BWF confirmed they left right away!

I don't understand some of what you are saying here. But we can argue this specifically. You can introduce BWF's relevant testimony.

In order to keep this thread focused on finding facts I've missed, I don't want to have Victoria Adam's testimony debated here. That can be debated on a dedicated thread.

 

 

Table of Contents

Accepted Range of Witness-Perceived Timing

Testimony Sources:  See below.

 

 

 

Testimony Sources

Interrogations of Oswald

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

Early DPD Affidavits

Bill Shelley:  http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif
Billy Lovelady:  http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif

You need to add the written and typed up ones, since there are differences due to crossed out bits in Lovelady's affidavit!

Give me a link and I'll add it. Hopefully the text on typed affidavits can be copied and pasted.

FBI Interviews

Victoria Adams:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (Original interview. See page 2.)
Victoria Adams:  http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle-1.jpg
          (This is a re-interview supposedly done because first interview was destroyed in a fire.)

VA interview is a DPD interview and not FBI

Okay, thanks.


Bill Shelley:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          ( See page 84.)
Billy Lovelady:  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          ( See page 62.)

WC Testimony

Victoria Adams:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
Bill Shelley:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
Billy Lovelady:  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

Any HSCA testimony on the go?

I haven't checked for any.

See my replies in bold red above.

And more below.

 

Where is Lovelady's Nov 22nd FBI interview? I did make mention of this.

Yes, I asked you for a link to that because there is a difficulty (for my premise) in it that needs to be addressed. I've been waiting for the Alistair/Trejo Victoria Adams posts to wrap up before getting to this.

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

Edited January 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

So you seek a compromise -- between 1.5 minutes and 7 minutes is about 3 minutes.  Yet this would require Shelley and Lovelady to run from the TSBD steps to the Grassy Knoll, accompany an officer to the parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll, look around for about 90 seconds, and then return to the TSBD west entrance in about 3 minutes.   Would this be possible?  Let's review:

(1)  Gloria Calvary ran up from the Grassy Knoll, exclaimed she had seen JFK shot, confirmed it, and then Shelley and Lovelady ran to the "little old island".  (30 SECONDS)

(2) Shelley-Lovelady looked back to see Truly-Baker enter the TSBD (5 SECONDS)

(3) They ran to the parking lot with a DPD officer (10 SECONDS)

(4) They looked around the parking lot (90 SECONDS)

(5) They sauntered back to the TSBD west entrance (60 SECONDS).

TOTAL ESTIMATE: 3 minutes and 15 seconds.

OK, that is within the realm of plausibility.  I can see that the physical steps match.  Also, it more closely matches Vickie Adams' estimate that she and Sandra spent very little time on the 4th floor after the JFK shots.

I would point out that this scenario confirms that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker were all telling the Truth to the best of their ability.

It also confirms, IMHO, that the real fabricators were Fritz-Holmes-Bookhout-Sorrels-Hosty-Weissman-Klause-Surrey-Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

It's not really about seeking a compromise per se... the 1.5 minutes is the minimum time, the maximum is 2 minutes as per Adam's exact words on timing from time of shots to reaching the first floor, the likliehood, for reasons we have already discussed is that that would have been (slightly) longer (i.e. more than 2 minutes). The 7 minutes is what Sandy has posited as the time of Shelley/Lovelady reaching the same position, that is what I am now going to look in to more...

*To reiterate, for my analysis I am containing myself just to their WC testimony alone (I do understand the limitations that may have)

I have no real issue with the total estimate you have deduced there, although I would like to mention that 'with a DPD officer' isn't part of their WC testimony and 'sauntered' (a great word btw, kudos ) may not be the most apt word. And my personal feeling is that it would be slightly less time. But yeah, I have no real issue with your estimated total time of 3 minutes and 15 seconds, as you said, it is within the realm of plausibility.

I'm not sure if this scenario confirms that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker were all telling the Truth to the best of their ability, only because I haven't got round to Truly and Baker yet, but it looks like it is heading that way - at least up to the time just before they go up the stairs. Even if my analysis does end up confirming that all of them were telling the truth to the best of their ability I don't think it follows to say that it confirms the real fabricators were Fritz-Holmes-Bookhout-Sorrels-Hosty-Weissman-Klause-Surrey-Walker.