Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: If we accept the scenario of this thread (Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony being correct), then Oswald must have been standing on the TSBD entryway at least immediately following the shooting, and quite possibly before and during the shooting as well! That is, if Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelley. Sandy, This CT breaks down for me quickly -- because none of the many TSBD workers standing at the Front Door of the TSBD at the time of the JFK shots has ever said "Yes, Mr. Liebeler, Lee Harvey Oswald was really standing or sitting near us -- or hanging around our social circle there at the front door, gawking at the events. No TSBD eye-witnesses places LHO at the crowded front door for the first 30 minutes after the JFK assassination. By that time LHO is already taking alternate transportation away from the TSBD area. Was it a Rambler Stationwagaon as DPD Sheriff Deputy Roger Craig believed? You say, Sandy, "If Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelly... Um, when did he say this? To whom? Who heard it? Who recorded it? Another rumor that starts with the Dallas DPD officers? Who is our source on LHO leaving the building. There were lots of eye-witneses covering the TSBD building at the time. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Thanks Steve. I hope that an expert on Gloria Calvery can answer that question. Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying... Is "crying" the same thing as Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics... Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 According to Shelley (W.C. Testimony. "Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor." After he returned to the TSBD he never went anywhere near the front door, so how could Oswald have been with him after the shooting. Therefore, he must have been with Shelley before the shooting. No wonder they tried to erase Shelley's name from the above report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Shelley “Lee Harvey Oswald worked under my supervision. He was at work when I arrived for work on November 22, 1963 at about 8 a.m. I specifically recall seeing Oswald on the first floor at about 11.50 a.m. This day. He was going about his regular duties filling orders at that time. I did not see Oswald again after this until I saw him at the Dallas police Dept.” Yet... Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day? Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12. Mr. BALL - Where had you been working? Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. Mr. BALL - What time did you go down and eat lunch? Mr. SHELLEY - It was around 10 'til. Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch? Mr. SHELLEY - No, I started eating. Mr. BALL - Where did you start eating it? Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front, Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them. Mr. BALL - And who was out there? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards. Mr. BALL - You were standing where? Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there. Seems if you are going to tell porkies, you should get your story straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 7:34 PM, Steve Thomas said: Do you think Gloria Calvery could be the woman who shouted to Joe Marshall Smith that "they are shooting the President from the bushes"? Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes". Was Calvery "in hysterics"? I don't know, I was just asking. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said: After he returned to the TSBD he (Shelley) never went anywhere near the front door, so how could Oswald have been with him after the shooting. Therefore, he must have been with Shelley before the shooting. Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), 9 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said: Shelley “Lee Harvey Oswald worked under my supervision. He was at work when I arrived for work on November 22, 1963 at about 8 a.m. I specifically recall seeing Oswald on the first floor at about 11.50 a.m. This day. He was going about his regular duties filling orders at that time. I did not see Oswald again after this until I saw him at the Dallas police Dept.” The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... 13 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said: Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day? Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12. There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said: Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future. Your quite right, Sandy. My bad. However if Shelley was with Oswald out front, then it must have been before the shooting, not after. Oswald must have seen Shelley out front otherwise how would he know he was there? Edited January 5, 2017 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said: However if Shelley was with Oswald out front, then it must have been before the shooting, not after. Oswald must have seen Shelley out front otherwise how would he know he was there? A very interesting question indeed. It is not necessary for Oswald to have actually seen Shelley out front to know that he was there, or at least to draw that inference. Perhaps, at the time when people were breaking for lunch, Oswald may have overheard Shelley say he was planning to watch it out front or perhaps he heard someone else say they were going to watch it out front with Shelley. Perhaps when Oswald was on his way to the first floor lunch room he may have seen Shelley out front. Perhaps when Oswald left via the front he over heard someone else mention that Shelley had been on the steps. Perhaps, even, Oswald saw Shelley standing out front at the moment that he was about to go up to the 2nd floor. *That last part there goes on the assumption that Oswald was telling the truth about where he was at the time of the shots and what he did after. On the flip side, if Oswald was the shooter then he clearly couldn't have seen Shelley out front at the time but that doesn't negate the thought that he took the inference that Shelley would be out front from what may have been said earlier. It's impossible to know for sure of course. A follow on question would be if Oswald was out front with Shelley (at any time) talking to each other, why did Shelley not mention it and why indeed did no one else mention it! A further follow on question would be why would Oswald say, that after the shots, and after the meeting with Baker/Truly, that he was out front with Bill Shelley if he couldn't for certain know that Shelley was there at that exact time? (That seems like an incredible risk to take) Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Good points, Alistair. Oswald also apparently said that Shelley told him to go home, as there would be no more work done that day. When could this have taken place, except after the shooting and before Shelley left with Lovely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said: Good points, Alistair. Oswald also apparently said that Shelley told him to go home, as there would be no more work done that day. When could this have taken place, except after the shooting and before Shelley left with Lovely? Yes that is true Ray, and that would tie in somewhat with what Sandy is positing as a timeline in his original post, inasmuch as that would put Shelley still on the steps long enough after the shots for Oswald to have left after the shots and been on the steps while Shelley was still there. There are some complications though, one being that Oswald said he left after the encounter with Baker and Truly on the 2nd floor, but Shelley claims that he had left the steps before Baker had gone in the front... I can't see a way to reconcile that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 One way would be that he left after the encounter with Baker and Truly on the front steps rather than on the supposed second floor meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: If we accept the scenario of this thread (Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony being correct), then Oswald must have been standing on the TSBD entryway at least immediately following the shooting, and quite possibly before and during the shooting as well! That is, if Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelley. Sandy, Yes -- and FBI agent James Bookhout -- the source of your confirmation there -- agrees fully with Shelley and Lovelady -- but for a different reason. Shelley and Lovelady were pushing a Grassy Knoll shooting. Bookhout was trying to frame LHO. See -- it is strictly impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to be in agreement with Bookhout, because Shelley and Lovelady NEVER MENTION LHO at the door of the TSDB there with their crowd. There were many people standing at that door -- including Roy Truly and many others who testified for the WC. Not one of them said LHO was standing there with them. Only James Bookhout (roughly following Captain Will Fritz, Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels and Dallas Postmaster James Humes) claims that LHO made this "confession." Here's my opinion: Bookhout is clearly lying. Will Fritz is clearly lying. James Hosty is clearly lying. Forrest Sorrells is clearly lying. James Humes is clearly lying. Shelley-Lovelady are telling the truth, except that their TIMING is confused. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said: Alternatively Oswald was making up the 'standing with Bill Shelley' part. Slight aside, here is an extract from Bugliosi's book 4 days in November... when Fritz was talking with Oswald from 3:40pm onwards... "What part of the building were you in at the time the president was shot?" Fritz quizzes. "I was having lunch about that time on the first floor," Oswald says dryly. "We broke for lunch about noon and I came down and ate." "Where were you when the officer stopped you?" Fritz asks, referring to the story that Roy Truly, the building manager, had told him earlier. "I was on the second floor drinking a Coke when an officer came in," Oswald replies. "There's a soda machine in the lunchroom there. I went up to get a Coke." "Then what did you do?" Fritz prompts. "I left," Oswald says, like it's nothing...... *a short time later..... "Why did you leave the Depository after the shooting?" Fritz asks, returning suddenly to the present. The questions are coming from all angles now, but Oswald handles the changeups with ease. "I went out front and was standing with Bill Shelley," Oswalds tells him, "and after hearing what happened, with all the confusion, I figured there wouldn't be any more work done the rest of the day, so I went home. The company's not that particular about our hours. We don't even punch a clock.! It may be important to look at what Oswald didn't say here as much as it is to look at what he did say. At the time of the shots, Oswald didn't say he was having lunch with anyone, but did say he was having it on the first floor. Oswald did not say he was standing on the front steps, he also did not say he was standing with Shelley at this time. He did say he then went up to the second floor to buy a Coke, thus he couldn't have had the Coke before that point, he does say that after that he left the building. Oswald says before he left he was standing out front with Bill Shelley and implies that it was from talking to Shelley that he made the decision to leave... What is also of interest in this is that Oswald says he was having lunch at the time of the shots, and he also says they broke for lunch about noon. From what other's have said about the breaking for lunch it is reasonable to say that 'about noon' means some time approaching 12 and not after it. This means that Oswald is claiming that he was on the first floor eating lunch from that point until the shots a period of 30+ minutes, during which time he didn't go up and get the Coke, but only after the shots did he do that (per his words). ... Ray, I'm not seeing a contradiction in what Shelley is saying in the two bits you posted there (in your most recent post), The 'I did not see Oswald again after this' is in reference to the seeing him on the first floor at about 11:50am. The line about 'regular duties', 'at that time', whilst worded somewhat awkwardly is in reference to what Oswald had been doing from getting to work in the morning until the time he must have gone down for lunch. So when Shelley then said what you quote... There is no contradiction there. Both times he is saying that the last time he saw Oswald was on the first floor at 11:50am. All things considered then, the question that springs to mind is why would Oswald claim to have been out front with Shelley? If it did happen then surely there would be some verification for it from other people. If it didn't happen why would Oswald take the risk in saying it? An interesting angle to look in to at some point in the future. Alistair, My problem with this is that Bugliosi accepts that Lee Harvey Oswald actually said those words. Yet those words were not recorded at the time that Oswald was in custody, but WEEKS LATER, by the admission of Captain Will Fritz himself. By that time, Fritz had plenty of time to coordinate these "notes" with the local conspirators. I don't believe one single word that was forced into the mouth of LHO while he was under arrest. LHO was framed -- not by the CIA -- but by Dallas Police Department rogues, working with General Walker and the Radical Right in Dallas. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited January 5, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Just checked in to see if the case had been solved, or at least if Prayer Man had been identified ... There are indeed some internal inconsistencies in the individual accounts of Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly, as well as in the accounts of those present at the interrogations of Oswald. There are likewise some inconsistencies between those various accounts. If one begins with the axiom that there was a large-scale conspiracy and that many people were lying/fabricating in support of this conspiracy, then these inconsistencies will be explained on the basis of lying/fabricating. If one does not begin with such an axiom and is familiar with the way evidence actually develops in a case (meaning the progression from on-the-spot witness statements to informal interviews to formal depositions to testimony at trial), these sorts of inconsistencies are precisely what one expects if the witnesses are pretty much telling the truth as they know it ("the truth as they know it" not necessarily being the same as "what actually happened"). Moreover, as was suggested above, the well-documented phenomenon of time distortion during crisis events should also be considered. I have experienced this a couple of times myself, and it threw my time estimates considerably off of what would have been physically possible. The assassination of a President in a crowded environment and the minutes thereafter would surely have to be one of the more chaotic and confusing scenarios imaginable. I have no problem with the notion that Shelley/Lovelady were essentially accurate, Baker/Truly entered the building somewhat later than they recalled, and the lunchroom encounter took place substantially as described. If LHO were the lone assassin, this would have given him that much more time to reach the lunchroom, perhaps after Vicki Adams had descended the stairs. Likewise, I have no problem with the notion that all of the foregoing is true except that LHO went to the lunchroom from the first floor as he described and was not on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. It just seems to me that trying to develop a precise timeline, and then to decide who was lying/fabricating on the basis of that timeline, is an exercise in futility – particularly if one begins with the axiom that large numbers of people must have been fabricating/lying, as opposed to telling the truth as they knew it. Fritz’s note about “out with Bill Shelley in front” seems most likely to me to be independent of “had lunch” on the previous line. In almost every case, Fritz started a new line if the statement referred to a different matter (unless the statement simply couldn’t be summarized on one line). It appears to me, as it has to others, that “out” meant in effect “left the TSBD.” Perhaps the timeline is such that Shelley actually was out front when LHO left. He testified that Truly briefly assigned him to guard the first floor elevator – perhaps this is what LHO was referring to. Perhaps LHO heard Shelley say “No one goes up” and concluded from this that it was safe to go home. FBI agent Bookhout’s report is the only source of the supposed “five or ten minute conversation” between LHO and Shelley, and there is a likelihood Bookhout’s report was made after-the-fact from Fritz’s notes. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. The point is, this all becomes significant mostly if one takes it as axiomatic that there was a large-scale conspiracy and many people were lying/fabricating (down to the level of unsophisticated characters like Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly, who would not have been on my roster for a Presidential assassination conspiracy). If one not only takes this as axiomatic but is also committed almost as an article of some religious creed that LHO is PM, then it all has to be force-fit into this creed. People are assumed to be lying, and to have a motive for lying, when the only real motive is on the part of those who are trying to force-fit the evidence into their creed. This is not how a rational approach to solving a case works. I just came from an extended discussion with some folks who are truly committed, as a matter of genuine religious faith, to the position that the earth is flat. No, they really are – it took me awhile to recognize that this was the case and that we were not simply playing some mind game for our mutual amusement. Anyway, the discussion was quite similar to the ones concerning PM and ancillary PM side-issues. When there is a good case for a conspiracy (for example, along the lines of what Larry Hancock has suggested), I continue to find it fascinating that seemingly sane people are attracted to the "flat earth" theories of the assassination. Edited January 5, 2017 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lance Payette said: ...There are indeed some internal inconsistencies in the individual accounts of Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly, as well as in the accounts of those present at the interrogations of Oswald. There are likewise some inconsistencies between those various accounts. If one begins with the axiom that there was a large-scale conspiracy and that many people were lying/fabricating in support of this conspiracy, then these inconsistencies will be explained on the basis of lying/fabricating. If one does not begin with such an axiom and is familiar with the way evidence actually develops in a case (meaning the progression from on-the-spot witness statements to informal interviews to formal depositions to testimony at trial), these sorts of inconsistencies are precisely what one expects if the witnesses are pretty much telling the truth as they know it ("the truth as they know it" not necessarily being the same as "what actually happened"). Moreover, as was suggested above, the well-documented phenomenon of time distortion during crisis events should also be considered. I have experienced this a couple of times myself, and it threw my time estimates considerably off of what would have been physically possible. The assassination of a President in a crowded environment and the minutes thereafter would surely have to be one of the more chaotic and confusing scenarios imaginable. I have no problem with the notion that Shelley/Lovelady were essentially accurate, Baker/Truly entered the building somewhat later than they recalled, and the lunchroom encounter took place substantially as described. If LHO were the lone assassin, this would have given him that much more time to reach the lunchroom, perhaps after Vicki Adams had descended the stairs. Likewise, I have no problem with the notion that all of the foregoing is true except that LHO went to the lunchroom from the first floor as he described and was not on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination. It just seems to me that trying to develop a precise timeline, and then to decide who was lying/fabricating on the basis of that timeline, is an exercise in futility – particularly if one begins with the axiom that large numbers of people must have been fabricating/lying, as opposed to telling the truth as they knew it... Lance, It's not a matter of a lot of people fabricating, IMHO, but of only 1% of the people fabricating, and everybody else just trying to remember what happened MONTHS after the chaotic event. The trick is to decide exactly WHO is fabricating, WHAT they are fabricating, and WHY. Now, as for Vickie Adams -- there is a mythology that she ran to the stairwell immediately after the JFK shots were fired, and so she "should have seen" LHO running down the stairs. This was dramatized by Oliver Stone in his 1992 movie, JFK. However, Vickie Adams' actual WC testimony does not even speak about the TIMING that closely. Let's review it here. Remember that Vickie and her pals are on the 4th floor of the TSBD, along the south wall, looking out the window at the JFK motorcade: ----------- BEGIN WC TESTIMONY OF VICTORIA ADAMS ----------------- Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view. Mr. BELIN - By what? Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot. It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock. Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out? Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out. Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you? Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles. Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct? Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct. Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go? Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs. ----------- END WC TESTIMONY OF VICTORIA ADAMS ----------------- Now -- Vickie Adams does not specifically address TIMING, although she does address SEQUENCE. One must force the word, "immediately" into her sentence to fit it in there. Vickie Adams says: "Following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock." The trouble is that if we insert the word, "immediately" into her sentence, then we must somehow explain how Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were on the 1st floor within 1-2 minutes of the JFK shots -- but even Shelley-Lovelady do not claim that. They took a long walk to the Grassy Knoll and back before they returned to the 1st floor about ten minutes later (as Shelley said in his sworn affidavit). Therefore -- the more likely scenario is that Vickie Adams, following the 3rd shot, along with Sandra Styles, walked to the back of the TSBD building (which is the north side) and looked out the windows for awhile, talking about the shocking tragedy, and hoping to see something out the windows. Then, after several minutes, they went down the back stairs, and met Shelley-Lovelady on the 1st floor. The notion that they HURRIED down the back stairs is a half-century mythology that is unsupported by the actual WC testimony, by my reading. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited January 5, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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