HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

Off the topic, but do you have any enthusiasm for Caufield's recent book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive New Evidence of a Radical-Right Conspiracy?  I'm just about at the point where I can't stand another JFK book, but I might take a chance on this one if it's worthwhile.

Lance,

This book is 900 pages long, but is only $29, last I checked.   IMHO, it is the best CT book yet published.   New FBI releases make it strong.  The freshness of the CT makes it interesting.  The first 14 chapters are solid as rock, IMHO.  The final half of the book is speculative, and needs more researchers to firm it up.  General Walker would have wanted his role in the JFK assassination to become part of US History, IMHO.  He left us clue after clue.  There is a 2015 thread on this Forum dedicated to this book -- it's called, "New Book".

That said, let's please return to Sandy's theme.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul,

what I'm not understanding at the moment is why it is important for the scenario that you believe in for Shelley/Lovelady's route to be the longer time that Sandy posited because if Oswald, as you believe, was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the time of the shots, what difference does it make whether Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 30 seconds or 3 minutes?

Regards

Alistair,

What is urgent for me is that we know what Shelley-Lovelady said -- and what they actually meant. 

It is also important for readers to come to a position about whether or not they were lying.  As you noted, Alistair, somebody can make a mistake and not be lying.

I think that both Shelley and Lovelady made mistakes in their testimony -- especially regarding TIMING -- but I want to clarify above all that these were accidental.  It was months later and the WC attorneys asked them about precise TIMING of the events. 

As Billy Lovelady protested, "I didn't have a stopwatch."   That's a lazy way of saying that he wasn't concerned about TIMING during the events themselves, so there's no way he could be certain about TIMING so many months after the events.

For me, the actual times are crucial in two regards: (1) that Shelley-Lovelady were back at the TSBD in time to see Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles; and (2) that Vickie Adams got down to the 1st floor in time to see Shelley-Lovelady.

Given those facts, we have the basic honesty of these TSBD witnesses.  That's why it's important to me.  (It's Captain Fritz who was lying, like Harry Holmes, Robert Alan Surrey and General Walker.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 12, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, I agree that we should give them plenty of lee-way to be human.

With regards to Lovelady, his WC testimony annoys me somewhat - I've lost count of how many times I have scrutinised it from beginning to end... I'm leaning to the conclusion that Lovelady wasn't really that interested and Ball wasn't overly interested in Lovelady as a witness (not as a 'key' witnesses anyway). Anyway, in regards to Lovelady's testimony below is some of my notes (in brackets) I have put beside Lovelady's testimony (in italics) - I offer it up for informational purposes only and with no real contentions on my part.

Regards

Mr. BALL - Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn?
Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LOVELADY - I do.
Mr. BALL - State your name, please.
Mr. LOVELADY - Billy Nolan Lovelady.
Mr. BALL - You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - You know the purpose of the investigation?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February 19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that.
Mr. BALL - When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. LOVELADY - December 16, 1961, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place.
Mr. BALL - Which one of the buildings do you work in?
Mr. LOVELADY - At the one at 411 Elm.
Mr. BALL - On November 22, 1963, where were you working? (clear and direct question)
Mr. LOVELADY - At that morning, you mean? (Obviously that's what Ball means, he isn't exactly going to be asking where Lovelady was working in the afternoon now was he.)
Mr. BALL - Yes.
Mr. LOVELADY - I Was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting down that flooring. (I to we.)
Mr. BALL - Who were you working with?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along.
Mr. BALL - That's Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - What is his position with Texas School Book Depository? (direct question)
Mr. LOVELADY - He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly. (indirect answer)
Mr. BALL - Is he a foreman? (Actually a supervisor)
Mr. LOVELADY - I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that. (no problem that Lovelady agrees with 'foreman', close enough)
Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well just to work with him.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine.
Mr. BALL - Where did Oswald work in the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, he had access to all the building just like I do. (reasonable response)
Mr. BALL - All floors? (Ball asking for clarity)
Mr. LOVELADY - All floors. (Lovelady giving clarity)
Mr. BALL - Any floor? (Ball asking for further clarity unnecessarily! All floors - any floors there is a distinction without a difference)
Mr. LOVELADY - Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there.
Mr. BALL - Did he work on one floor more than any other? (Strange question? Asked perhaps to see if Oswald spent more time on the 6th floor, but what if the response had been yes he spent more time on another floor - the question doesn't really have much meaning)
Mr. LOVELADY - No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books. (Fair response)
Mr. BALL - Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys. (2 or 3 times in the total time Oswald worked there?, or 2 or 3 times per week? - Ball does not seek clarification on this point)
Mr. BALL - Did you see him come to Work that morning?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir. (Surely Ball's next question would follow on and ask did you see him at any other time that morning!)
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand? (Instead Ball jumps to ask about what Oswald carried, strange question straight after Lovelady has said he did not see Oswald come to work that morning and Ball hasn't asked Lovelady if he saw him at any other time)
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; just lunch. (offering up an answer to an unasked question! "No I didn't see him carrying anything apart from what I saw him carry at lunch"!)
Mr. BALL - Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch?
Mr. LOVELADY - Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had.
Mr. BALL - What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day? (reasonable question)
Mr. LOVELADY - Same time, 12. (Same time, in reference to 'same time' as usual! - additional information not needed, he could have just answered 12!)
Mr. BALL - A little before 12? (leading question? Why not ask if 12 was an exact time)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it. (so when saying he stopped working for Lunch at 12 what he really meant was he stopped working for lunch at 10 to 12)
Mr. BALL - Did you come down the elevator?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you go down with?
Mr. LOVELADY - Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the side I was; I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Were you having a race with the other boys?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure was. (sure was? he must like those games they play)
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way down?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holier to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him.
Mr. BALL - You were on the west elevator?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, on back, the elevator back.
Mr. BALL - Did you see him?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because---where those slats are in back of the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him again that day?
Mr. LOVELADY - No.
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.(Not clear whether, after washing up, he took his lunch with him up to the 2nd floor to get the coke and came and back down or not)
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. (Doesn't just answer Ball's question with a simple answer, instead goes in to more detail rather than wait for Ball to ask another question!. Also a very interesting thought occurs about the timeline here - stop work at 11:50 to wash up and get ready to start lunch at 12 - wouldn't take long to go and get coke and come back down see no-one is in Domino room and then see Shelley and Stanton outside and make the decision to join them - 25 to 30 minutes before the President went past)
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? (Seeking clarification that Lovelady actually ate his lunch on the step!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. (confirming that he did eat his lunch on the steps, Ball knows that Lovelady has mentioned a coke as part of his lunch but not what else his lunch consisted of, hopefully Ball will ask that next. He does not! Is that important? Yes, he should have asked to see if Lovelady had his lunch in a brown paper bag afterall a brown paper bag and Coke was found on the steps after the assassination, Ball could have asked further questions to find out what Lovelady did with his lunch after finishing, he could have nailed the issue down - had he followed that line of questioning through there may have been an answer to whose bag and bottle were left on the steps either way!)
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me (this could be a typographical error and perhaps should read 'was right behind me'. But likely to be that Lovelady was about to name another person who was out on the steps at the time)
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? (Ball interrupts Lovelady and we are left not knowing who else Lovelady was about to name - that in itself may not mean anything 'sinister' but it does show 'bad practice' on Ball's part not letting Lovelady finish his answer.)
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. (Lovelady answers the question of what was the last name with the last name of the last name)
Mr. BALL - What is the first name? (Ball having been given the last name of the last name asks for the first name of the last name)
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. (Lovelady thinks Ball means the name of the first person)
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? (Having been given the first and last name of the first name, and already having the last name of the last person, Ball asks for the first name of the last name)
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. (Phew, we got there in the end! Could Ball not just have asked in the first place what the name of the two people were directly!)
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. (Very impotant point.)
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. (Very important point also - From the point of arriving on the steps with his lunch  at 12 or just after Lovelady did not leave between that and the time the President's motorcade went by)
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot. (The likely inference here is that it was quite quick for Gloria to come up - 'at first' and 'running' imply speed of the incident)
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.
Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where does she work?
Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?
Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are? (Lovelady seems confused! The previous question asked directly to mark where he was on the picture he just said he was in, yet he seems to be conufsing the question with the questions asked previously about where he thought the shots came from. An inability to follow the questions?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture. (clarification that it is the picture!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating). (Oh? Lovelady showing surprise. Surprise that it was in regards of him in the picture and not the direction of shots. An inabilty to follow the questions?)
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. (Ball has confirmed that Lovelady was on the steps at the time of the shots and has already established that he had been on the steps with Shelley and Stanton, if his next question is about Gloria Calvary then he should be asking Lovelady if he was still on the steps at that time!)
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? (No clarification sought by Ball as to whether or not the Gloria incident happened before or after leaving the stairs. Note though that it does not mention Stanton.)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. (with no clarification sought by Ball with his question, all we can infer is that when Gloria came up Lovelady was with Shelley)
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? (Why is Ball re-affiriming her second name? Is there another Gloria been mentioned? No. Seems superflous to re-affirm her second name)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. (Most of what Lovelady offers up here is stuff that he and Shelley did after the meeting with Gloria, he was asked 'when' Gloria came up what did you do, he has answered not only with 'when' but also with 'after'. In regards to just the 'conversation' with Gloria, it reads as if it was a much longer exchange than it necessarily was... it could just have been a case of Gloria exclaiming the President has been shot, Lovelady asked really? How do you know? and Gloria responded yes! I saw it! It may well have been longer than that, but that is the minimum it could have been to tie in with what Lovelady has just said about the exchange
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. (After Lovelady has made mention of all the stuff afterwards, Ball tries to bring it back to before. Is that before or after the meeting with Gloria - it could be read either way! Who knows for sure? After all, Ball earlier did not seek any clarification on the poiint!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far? (Ball has the opportunity to chronologically get the steps of Lovelady and Shelley here - ie, you left the steps with Shelley? Was that before or after meeting Gloria? Then what did you do? etc etc - instead he seems to be asking the wrong way round, as evidenced with this question and in the following exchange)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm? (another interruption by Ball)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there? (sure he means why here not how)
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way? (another interruption by Ball)
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building? (The trip to the first tracks happened after this point but Ball asked about it first, before coming back to this point)
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building. (Point. running towards the entrance not literally 'into the building')
Mr. BALL - How many steps? (clarification sought on number of steps away)
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25. (15 maybe 25 has quickly become 20 maybe 25. No real issue there with that difference other than it mentions two different numbers)
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. (Point. again, towards the entrance not literally 'enter the building')
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? (Then you came back? What is that all about? Is Ball actually putting in any effort at all! The journey Lovelady has made from the steps to the railroad tracks has not got him coming back anywhere so why does Ball say this? Why not just ask the 'how long did you stay around the railroad tracks bit alone)
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. (Oh shows surprise on Lovelady's part, perhaps he had never considered how long he actually spent there, but when pressed puts a time of 1 minute or minute and a half - could be less!)
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? (clarification sought on what Lovelady did after being at the railroad tracks)
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. (Inexact clarification given, 'back inside the building' could mean either via the rear or via the front!))
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? (clarification on entrance)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. (clarification given)
Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up? (This is where the whole issue becomes 'fudged'. Ball has been trying to find out Lovelady's movements from the time of shots till getting back to the building but has done it in a non-chronological order, but has just finished it with the re-entering at the back part - the logical next question that Ball would ask after that point would be to ask how long it took from the time of the shots till that point, but that's not what he asks, he instead asks about Gloria Calvary coming up)
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say. (Oh shows surprise on Lovelady's part! There is the possibiltiy that Lovelady had something of an expectation of being asked the total time before re-entering the building and is surprised at the mention of Gloria and gives the time it took till re-entering the building anyway. Of course he may well be giving the time he felt it took Gloria to reach him)
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time. (This backs up the thinking that the 3 minutes Lovelady stated was in reference to Gloria coming up)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could. (Earlier on Lovelady said he stopped for lunch at 12 before stating it was actually probably 10 minutes before that - that speaks to his 'loose' time telling abilities, so when he says 'approximately' 3 minutes could he actually mean a lot less?)
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? (Another interruption by Ball! We have no way to know if Lovelady was about to say 'it could be a lot less' or not! Damn!)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. (Lovelady states that after going down the steps there was a 'blind side' that stopped him seeing if anyone was running (to the railroad tracks?), and also states that he couldn't see if anyone was running (to the railroad tracks) when 'meeting' Gloria as they weren't looking that way at the time. If the meeting with Gloria happened on the stairs or at the blind side then why say the reason he could see no running was because he wasn't looking that direction when the actual reason is it couldn't be seen anyway. The inference (however back-handedly) is that the meeintg with Calvary did not happen on the stairs)
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? (First there could be a typographical error here, what if there should be a comma after the word 'Right' then that could change the aspect of the question. Either way, the question stands and reads 'after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go towards the tracks?' - it reads that Lovelady was still on the steps when Gloria came up and after that left the steps to go to the tracks. Sounds simple! However considering that Ball has not sought clarification at any point whether or not the meeting with Gloria happened on the steps and Lovelady has not volunteered that information (not his job to do Ball's job for him), Ball might just be presuming it happened on the stairs and Lovelady sees no importance to clarify it off his own back)
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. (Ball's question was about steps to railroad tracks! He jumps the part about seeing Baker/Truly)
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? (now he comes back to the part about seeing Baker/Truly)
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? (now Ball is asking about after the railroad tracks and entering the building - it's a logical question, but would follow better if his last two main questions were the other way round)
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?  (This question and the part that follows on seems a bit strange, it's almost like Ball really has no idea of the lay out of the TSBD and isn't sure of where the docks are (in terms of compass directions)and needs a lot of help from Lovelady to clarify the point he went in, but it is obvious from the exchange that a 'image' of the layout is available at the time, could Ball not have simplified the whole exchange by referring to it straight away and just asked Lovelady to mark on it where he re-entered the building)
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? (Phew got there in the end)
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. (arguably Lovelady is offering up information here that he doesn't need to)
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? (Ball probably knows who it is in reference to but is seeking clarification)
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? (Ball is re-treading here, Lovelady has already said he wouldn't swear to it being Vickie, so why ask again?)
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. (repeating what he has already said)
Mr. BALL - Where was the girl? (Important question as it ties in directly with what Adams would testify to)
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. (The interesting thing here is that although Lovelady and Shelley had a 'shared' jounrey from the steps to re-entering the building it is clear from this that after re-entering the building they were not 'tied at the hips'. Lovelady is separate from Shelley here and all he really knows is he can see Shelley and he can see a girl who may be Vickie Adams and she may just be seeing Shelley or something. All in it is not a clear account)
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?
Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---
Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one. (Now it's Lovelady's turn to interrupt. His words make it sound like he has had enough of the whole thing and doesn't want anything more to do with it)
Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Alistair Briggs
Bolding for emphasis

[Paul Trejo]

Alistair,

I agree that Billy Lovelady's WC testimony was a clumsy matter.  We have a Southern boy with a lazy drawl and attitude, being questioned by a a Yankee with perfect grammar.   Loose answers to loose questions -- almost a competition of attitude -- this comes through to me.

As for the irrelevance of some of his questions, I think attorney Ball had a strategy to lull Lovelady into ease, complacency and confidence, so that he would be off-guard for the really big questions asked of all the TSBD employees, namely, "What role did you play in the events involving Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) when JFK was killed?"

Lovelady remained calm, because he had nothing to hide.  Lovelady didn't strain to recall the exact TIMING of the day's events.  He had seen LHO on the 6th floor of the TSBD about 40 minutes before JFK was shot.  That's what all of the TSBD stock clerks on the 6th floor said, and I have no reason in the world to imagine that they were lying.   (BTW, most of them were laying plywood that day, and not stocking books, as LHO was doing.)  They all agreed that LHO tended to stay by himself.  This makes sense because LHO was an avid reader, and these stock-workers were clearly not.  What would they talk about?

Lovelady made it a point of his personality to be a "regular guy," just another "working man," and had no pretense of social graces.  He enjoyed his elevator race down to the 1st floor with the other young male workers there at the TSBD.  This was not a mature man.  Still, Lovelady had nothing to hide.  

Also, Lovelady said he didn't see LHO near the first floor TSBD or the front steps with all the other TSBD employees with whom he was standing (and sometimes sitting).   This matches their testimony as well.

Except for the TIMING of these events, which Lovelady openly admits he can barely estimate, there is nothing self-contradictory about this WC testimony.  There is nothing that jumps out at me as deliberate fabrication.   I find it all believable.  I have no problem with any of it.

Now -- this is where my question to Sandy comes in.  Sandy has said he has a viewpoint to share about Lovelady's FBI interview, given on the day of the JFK murder.  If there is any self-contradiction with that interview -- THAT would be interesting.   Otherwise, it's fairly boring material, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

Paul, yep clumsy matter indeed.

Do you know if the Lovelady FBI interview on the day of the assassination is available online?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Paul Trejo]

23 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul, yep clumsy matter indeed.

Do you know if the Lovelady FBI interview on the day of the assassination is available online?

Alistair,

I can't find it.   I'm waiting for Sandy to comment on it.

--Paul

[Ray Mitcham]

On 1/13/2017 at 10:10 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul, yep clumsy matter indeed.

Do you know if the Lovelady FBI interview on the day of the assassination is available online?

This the one, Alistair?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&relPageId=232

 

Sorry just realised that it is  County of Dallas statement.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Alistair Briggs]

4 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Tis the one, Alistair?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&relPageId=232

Good stuff Ray. I think that might be it. Sandy will need to confirm for sure if that is the one he meant originally.

Regards

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

16 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Tis the one, Alistair?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140&relPageId=232

Good stuff Ray. I think that might be it. Sandy will need to confirm for sure if that is the one he meant originally.

 

That's Lovelady's first day affidavit that I've have I've had posted on page 1 from early on.

If you go to Post #1, at the bottom is a convenient list of links to affidavits, reports, interviews, and testimony. You should easily be able to find the FBI's first-day-interview of Lovelady there.

BTW I haven't been posting because I've had a nasty flu. Just recovering now.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

Sandy, sorry to hear you have been ill, hope you are fully recovered as soon as possible.

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's Lovelady's first day affidavit that I've have I've had posted on page 1 from early on.

If you go to Post #1, at the bottom is a convenient list of links to affidavits, reports, interviews, and testimony. You should easily be able to find the FBI's first-day-interview of Lovelady there...

Sandy,

Thanks for posting Billy Lovelady's FBI interview from 11/22/1963 in your very first post of your thread.  You also posted his Sheriff's Affidavit from 11/22/1963.  

IMHO, the problems with these two statements can be summarized with one word: TIMING.   Billy Lovelady was a man of few words, and so this led him to COMPRESS TIME in his statements.   For example, here is his timing from his Sheriff's Affidavit:

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF BILLY LOVELADY AFFIDAVIT 11/22/1963 ----------------- 

...On Friday November 22, 1963 I worked on the 6th floor along with Danny Arce, Jack Dougherty, Bill Shelley and Charles Givens.  When the President came by Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work.  After he passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots.  There was a slight pause after the first shot and then the next two was right close together.  I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us.  However, that could have been caused by the echo.  After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building.  I did not see anyone around the building that was not supposed to be there...

------- END EXTRACT OF BILLY LOVELADY AFFIDAVIT 11/22/1963 ----------------- 

In this statement, Billy Lovelady compresses all the time of his activity outside of the TSBD that day into the time he took to think about the three shots and their source.   "After it was over," says Lovelady, he and Shelley returned inside the TSBD.   After WHAT was over?   The shooting?  The gawking?  The running to the railroad tracks with a policeman and walking back?  He doesn't say.  Lovelady has compressed up to 10 minutes of time into a few seconds.  This is characteristic of the lazy way in which Billy Lovelady talked.  He doesn't volunteer information -- he has to be asked.  He's always in a big hurry to get to the end.

OK, now let's look at Billy Lovelady's FBI interview:

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF BILLY LOVELADY FBI INTERVIEW 11/22/1963 ----------------- 

...On November 22, 1963, LOVELADY and his foreman, BILL SHELLEY, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 PM watching the Presidential Motorcade pass.  At about this time he heard three shots.  At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle.  He could not tell from which direction the shots came.  He said immediately after hearing the shots he and SHELLEY started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.  He and SHELLEY then returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building.  During this time he saw no one run out of the building or saw no suspicious individuals...

------- END EXTRACT OF BILLY LOVELADY FBI INTERVIEW 11/22/1963 ----------------- 

Here is the main problem that I see.  Billy Lovelady added a new detail; he said, "immediately after hearing the shots, he and SHELLEY started running towards the Presidential car."

The problem is the word, "immediately."   For most people, that means right away, without any delay.  That's not what it meant for Lovelady, who was very lazy and sloppy with English grammar.  

For one thing Lovelady added this detail to the story he gave in his Affidavit -- his Affidavit says nothing about running for the Presidential car.  For another thing, Lovelady continues to omit all the detail of speaking with Gloria Calvary, of looking back to see Truly-Baker enter the TSBD, of running to the railroad tracks with a DPD policeman, and looking around there for 90 seconds, and then walking back with Bill Shelley.

Yet we are left with this word, "immediately," which, if taken literally, would omit the story about Gloria Calvary and looking back to see Truly-Baker.

But we can't take the word "immediately" at face value because of its function -- it COMPRESSES TIME.  This is how Lovelady speaks.

It's as though Lovelady is not going to share all the details of what happened unless he is specifically asked.   Otherwise, he will just offer a summary statement -- and if he feel very pressed, he will say, "after it was all over," and come to the end.

I don't see any lying here, however.  Knowing that Lovelady compresses time the way he does, there is no actual contradiction with his WC testimony.   That's how I see it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 16, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

Alistair Briggs claims that the testimonies of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady -- specifically regarding their claim that they left the TSBD steps about three minutes after the shooting -- contradict the testimonies of the people he lists in this paragraph:

10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

For your reading of it being 3 minutes after the shots that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps to be accurate then that would mean the following people are wildly wrong Baker, Truly, Adams (who you have already mentioned) (and by extension Styles who came down with Adams), also Dorman and Garner (who came down not long after Adams & Styles and who said in the Martha Stroud letter that she saw Baker and Truly on the stairs), also Frazier and Molina (who saw Truly enter the building approx. 30 seconds after the shots, granted neither saw Baker enter, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, Frazier stated: " They (police officer) could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. ) and Piper (the first people he saw after the shots was Truly/Baker) Also, Sawyer, Barnett, Howard and Harkness ( by the time you have Lovelady/Shelley re-entering the back it had been sealed off)  Also, by further extension it would make a mockery of Fritz, Bookhout, Sims, Boyle, Hosty, Sorrels, Leavelle etc and Allman and Oswald himself... and by extension also make a total mockery of McWatters, Blesdoe and Whaley...

The purpose of this thread, from the beginning, was to discover and explore such contradictions. Therefore I plan on addressing these individuals' testimonies one by one.

I won't be addressing the contradictions in the testimonies of Baker, Truly, and Adams because the premise of this thread (laid out in Post #1) states that the first two lied, and the testimony of the third was altered by the WC.
 

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair Briggs claims that the testimonies of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady -- specifically regarding their claim that they left the TSBD steps about three minutes after the shooting -- contradict the testimonies of the people he lists in this paragraph:

 

I don't claim that!

What I 'claim' is that the thought that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 3 minutes causes problems elsewhere, it's not necessarily about contradicting Shelley/Lovelady directly in and of itself, it is also about the knock on effect which can be 'indirect'...

Slight difference, but a very important one.
(Sandy, if you can't see what the difference is, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough, apologies for that, I can try and clarify further if need be. )

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The purpose of this thread, from the beginning, was to discover and explore such contradictions. Therefore I plan on addressing these individuals' testimonies one by one.

 

Kind of indicative of what I am meaning above. One can't compare the 'testimony' of all of them directly against Shelley/Lovelady, because there is no direct correlation, in some cases it's very much indirect as a result of a 'knock-on' effect.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I won't be addressing the contradictions in the testimonies of Baker, Truly, and Adams because the premise of this thread (laid out in Post #1) states that the first two lied, and the testimony of the third was altered by the WC.

 

Sorry to say, but I think it is imperative to not rule out Baker, Truly and Adams fully because their 'journey' is mentioned by others and that is relevant to the point in hand (imo).

Before moving on I think it is prudent to set up the premise - I propose we start by saying that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 3 minutes, how long after that did they turn to see Baker/Truly?

Regards

[Alistair Briggs]

 

8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Before moving on I think it is prudent to set up the premise - I propose we start by saying that Shelley/Lovelady left the steps after 3 minutes, how long after that did they turn to see Baker/Truly?

How long after Shelley/Lovelady left the steps did they turn and see Baker/Truly?

Here is Sandy's timeline from his first post in this thread...

 

On 02/01/2017 at 1:22 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Shelley & Lovelady Timeline:

 

00:00  Heard last shot at TSBD steps.
03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps. Informs them of Kennedy being shot.
03:30  They arrive at island across the street. Shelley sees Truly & Baker at TSBD steps.
04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25
           steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are
           75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.)
05:30  Arrive at railroad yard.
07:00  Enter west door of TSBD. Lovelady sees girl, won't swear to her being
          Victoria Adams.

 

Query: Is "04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25 steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are 75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.)" a 'fair time' to put on it. That is to say, is 1:30 a 'fair' time after their leaving the steps for Truly & Baker to enter the TSBD?

From Shelley's WC testimony;

Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes

From Lovelady's WC testimony;

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Note: Shelley says they were on the island when they looked back to see Truly and Baker going in to the building, 3 or 4 minutes after the shots.
Note: Lovelady at no point says they were on the island, he does say, earlier in his WC testimony, and I quote, "we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street".
Note: Lovelady says they were (maybe) 25 steps away from the building when he looked back and saw Truly and Baker run in to the building.

Query: How long would 25 steps take? Average time to walk 100 metres = 1 minute. Average step length = 2.6ft (31 inches). 2.6ft * 25 steps = distance of 65ft, converted to metres = 19.812. - round up to 20 (for ease of calculation) Average time to walk 20 metres = 12 seconds. Too soon? Perhaps he walked slower, or perhaps he walked further...  reasonable time to put it at (especially for ease of calculation) 25 steps; 1 step per second; round up to nearest full number = 30 seconds! Reasonable and practical inference of time.

Aside note (personal opinion - text hidden because of that):( Wouldn't surprise me if Sandy made the claim that I was 'putting words in to Lovelady's mouth' at this point, ironically by his own timeline he has Lovelady on the island (which Lovelady never said) and also has Lovelady seeing Truly/Baker enter the building 90 seconds after leaving the steps, whilst Lovelady actually said that he had only gone (maximum) of 25 steps away from the building after leaving the steps before seeing Truly/Baker enter the building - taking 90 seconds to walk 25 steps does not commute. )

Conclusion: Seeing Baker/Truly enter the building 04:30 after the shots is 30 seconds more than Shelley's top estimate, and is (arguably) (at a mininum) one minute more than what Lovelady said. Reasonable time to put the incident at? Proposal: 30 seconds after they left the steps.

Timeline:

12:30:00 shots
12:33:00 Shelley/Lovelady leave steps
12:33:30 Truly/Baker 'enter' TSBD

Sandy, at this point do you accept, for the purposes of moving the discussion forward, that 'proposal' on the time?

Regards

[Ernie Lazar]

On 1/11/2017 at 9:17 AM, Paul Trejo said:

I was also fortunate to live in Austin, where the personal papers of General Walker are stored at UT Austin's Briscoe Center for American History.   There are 90 boxes of material there, and I searched in every single one (for college credit).  My results convinced me that JFK researchers have been overlooking the most important suspect of the JFK assassination -- for 50 years.  General Walker wanted people to know his historical role -- but since he was not alone in the plot, he maintained relative silence.  But he consistently linked his name to Lee Harvey Oswald until the day he died.  This is all in his personal papers (which I shared with Jeff Caufield over the years, as well as with Gary Mack, and also with this Forum since 2010).

In the past, you have written that you were NOT able to review the entire Walker collection.  If that has changed, did you find any:

1.   Correspondence from Walker to Harry Dean or to John Rousselot or to Guy Galbadon?

2.   Correspondence by Harry Dean, John Rousselot, or Guy Galbadon TO Walker?

3.   Correspondence by Walker (or anybody else) which mentions any sort of active JBS "plot" to murder JFK?  or even the abstract interest in murdering JFK?

4.   Correspondence by any local Dallas (or Texas) JBS chapter leader, JBS section leader, or JBS Coordinator which mentions any sort of JBS plot to murder JFK?

5.   ANYTHING which directly connects Walker and/or the JBS (in Dallas, in Texas, or at national HQ in Belmont MA) to illegal activities or the desire to commit illegal actions?