HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Nothing certain about that, Couch shows that Lovelady was full of it in his WC testimony. They never looked back and they were gone a whole lot further than Lovelady stated looking back and seeing Baker go in. 

Rubbish, Vicky Adams stated she never saw Shelley and Lovelady, this was inserted by Leavelle and also in her testimony. Sandra Styles backed this up. Again read The Girl On The Stairs, 

Here is a summary by me from his work.

“A few people were milling around on the first floor. One was a black man” When asked by Ernest whether Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were there she said “No and that she would have recognised them as she knew both men well”. When asked a again a few days later she said “No I didn’t. I believe they were at the front entrance, and we went out the back door and around to the front of the building. I believe most of the Depository employees were watching from the front entrance”. When confronted by Ernest that Victoria Adams’ testimony referred Shelley and Lovelady being on the first floor when both women arrived there. She answered “I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that-if she did that. They definitely weren’t there”.

When she is asked again on a later date by Barry Ernest about whether she saw Shelley and Lovelady she says: “No, I didn’t. I believe they were at the front entrance and we went out of the back door and around to the front of the building. I believe most of the Depository employees were watching from the front entrance. I have seen at least picture in which Billy is with that group. The photograph she is referring to has to be Altgens 6. Besides Truly, Shelley and Lovelady himself confirming it is him in that photo and not Lee Oswald as certain conspiracy theorists allege Sandra Styles is another person confirming it’s Billy Nolan Lovelady.

When Styles is told by Barry Ernest that Victoria Adam’s testimony mentions the presence of Shelley and Lovelady being on the first floor when they had descended the stairs she comments: “I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that-if she did. They definitely weren’t there”. And shortly after when he mentions that this part could have been inserted in Adam’s testimony. “All I can say is that Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there.

Calvery was encountered across the rd. as per Shelley's first statement.

Quit speculating Paul.....seriously.

Bart,

Speculation is not my thing -- I use sworn WC testimony whenever possible.   Your research is mistaken because you're using hearsay.

Here's the actual, sworn, WC testimony by Vicky Adams:

Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

There it is, Bart.  Read 'em and weep.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Guest]

Keep dreaming Paul, for a CTer you display some funny tendencies and it seems that you have been at odds with many others due to bad speculation. Read the book dude, but somehow I feel I am wasting my time with the likes of you.

Don't bother replying, you will be on my ignore list.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bart,

Speculation is not my thing -- I use sworn WC testimony whenever possible.   Your research is mistaken because you're using hearsay.

Here's the actual, sworn, WC testimony by Vicky Adams:

Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.
Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

There it is, Bart.  Read 'em and weep.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Isn't that the testimony Vicki Adams allegedly told author Barry Ernest had been altered?

http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/girl-on-the-stairs-refutes-p-c-jfk-narrative/

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

When Styles is told by Barry Ernest that Victoria Adam’s testimony mentions the presence of Shelley and Lovelady being on the first floor when they had descended the stairs she comments: “I can’t imagine why Vicky would have said that-if she did. They definitely weren’t there”. And shortly after when he mentions that this part could have been inserted in Adam’s testimony. “All I can say is that Shelley and Lovelady were definitely not on the first floor when we got there.

Calvery was encountered across the rd. as per Shelley's first statement.

Quit speculating Paul.....seriously.

Bart, you say that Styles denied that Shelley and Lovelady were back there. What about Victoria Adams herself? Didn't Barry Ernest interview her?

 

EDIT:
I just read some of the WND article Tommy linked to. According to it, Ernest DID interview Victoria Adams and she stated that her testimony had been changed. I wonder why Bart didn't mention that in his latest post, above.

....Okay I just re-read what Bart wrote. He did write what Victoria Adams said, but didn't specify that she said it to Ernest. (I'd forgotten that sentence by the time I'd read the paragraphs about what Styles told Ernest.)

Edited March 7, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Bill Miller]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 Ernest DID interview Victoria Adams and she stated that her testimony had been changed. I wonder why Bart didn't mention that in his latest post, above.

Good question!

[Guest]

Yes Sandy, correct, I thought you guys were already aware of all that. Seems that even though with all that info available 'this group' here rather debates moot points to death instead.

Adams was interviewed in Dallas by D. Belin.

She did correct her statement (as seen in the M.J. Stroud doc), whereas the WC version did not show any of these changes applied.

Leavelle re interviewed her under false pretences (her original statement had gone up in smoke) and found her at a new address where she had moved in only the day before and without her name on any documentation at that time (it was in her flat mates' name).....

Yeah how about that!!!

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Yes Sandy, correct, I thought you guys were already aware of all that. Seems that even though with all that info available 'this group' here rather debates moot points to death instead.

Adams was interviewed in Dallas by D. Belin.

She did correct her statement (as seen in the M.J. Stroud doc), whereas the WC version did not show any of these changes applied.

Leavelle re interviewed her under false pretences (her original statement had gone up in smoke) and found her at a new address where she had moved in only the day before and without her name on any documentation at that time (it was in her flat mates' name).....

Yeah how about that!!!

 

Thanks Bart.

We don't have it all memorized like you do. 

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Thanks Bart.

We don't have it all memorized like you do. 

 

Got nothing to do with that, for the past year you have been on a mission trying to prove to everyone your beliefs/points and like Miller you have not read and studied all relevant material. But this forum is filled to the brim with assertions so what gives by having another person adding his load......

You have a nice day too 

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Got nothing to do with that, for the past year you have been on a mission trying to prove to everyone your beliefs/points and like Miller you have not read and studied all relevant material. But this forum is filled to the brim with assertions so what gives by having another person adding his load......

You have a nice day too 

I, Bob Prudhomme, and Tommy Graves are only trying to explain Lovelady still being on the steps in Darnell/Couch. Bob and I, and possibly Tommy, already accept that there was no 2nd floor encounter.

And BTW, in this thread I was exploring the possibility that Shelley and Lovelady told the truth and didn't leave the steps for the first three minutes or so. I have since abandoned that hypothesis. I think we all now believe that Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies were rehearsed.

So, in short, I believe the only difference between what you believe and what we believe is that we don't believe that the two guys walking down Elm extension are Shelley and Lovelady. Because we see Lovelady still on the steps.

And BTW, Tommy and I believe we have found Gloria Calvery.

(Disclaimer: I shouldn't speak for Tommy and Bob. I do so only because I don't want it to sound like I am doing all this myself. If any credit is due, I don't want to take it myself.)

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I, Bob Prudhomme, and Tommy Graves are only trying to explain Lovelady still being on the steps in Darnell/Couch. Bob and I, and possibly Tommy, already accept that there was no 2nd floor encounter.

And BTW, in this thread I was exploring the possibility that Shelley and Lovelady told the truth and didn't leave the steps for the first three minutes or so. I have since abandoned that hypothesis. I think we all now believe that Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies were rehearsed.

So, in short, I believe the only difference between what you believe and what we believe is that we don't believe that the two guys walking down Elm extension are Shelley and Lovelady. Because we see Lovelady still on the steps.

And BTW, Tommy and I believe we have found Gloria Calvery.

(Disclaimer: I shouldn't speak for Tommy and Bob. I do so only because I don't want it to sound like I am doing all this myself. If any credit is due, I don't want to take it myself.)

 

That's right, Sandy.  I and you (lol) believe we have found Gloria Calvery.  We think she's the dark-headscarf-wearing "Big Girl" standing next to John Templin in this Z-frame.

Templin and businessman Ernest Brandt (see article, below) said they were with each other that day, and neither of them said anything about a third person's having been with them, so we logically assume that "Big Girl" was with the other headscarf-wearing gals to her left.

 

I and you (lol) believe that three of the four other (one is almost completely hidden) headscarf-wearing ladies that "Big Girl" / Calvery is standing with have been misidentified in this Z-frame as Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, and that the four headscarf-wearing women she's with are actually Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook, and June Dishong (in an as-yet undetermined order).

Most importantly, I and you (lol) believe that this "Big Girl" / Gloria Calvery can be seen talking to Lovelady on the TSBD steps in Couch - Darnell.

 

Article on Templin and Brandt: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death

 

PS --  As to whether or not Baker and Truly encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, I don't see how Lovelady's and Calvery's being on the TSBD steps 30 or-so seconds after the final shot has any bearing on that issue.  Am I missing something, here?

--  Tommy

Edited March 8, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

That's right, Sandy.  I and you (lol) believe we have found Gloria Calvery.  We think she's the dark-headscarf-wearing "Big Girl" standing next to John Templin in this Z-frame.

Templin and businessman Ernest Brandt (see article, below) said they were with each other that day, and neither of them said anything about a third person's having been with them, so we logically assume that "Big Girl" was with the other headscarf-wearing gals to her left.

 

I and you (lol) believe that three of the four other (one is almost completely hidden) headscarf-wearing ladies that "Big Girl" / Calvery is standing with have been misidentified in this Z-frame as Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, and that the four headscarf-wearing women she's with are actually Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, Karen Westbrook, and June Dishong (in an as-yet undetermined order).

Most importantly, I and you (lol) believe that this "Big Girl" / Gloria Calvery can be seen talking to Lovelady on the TSBD steps in Couch - Darnell.

 

Article on Templin and Brandt: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/downtown-dallas/2012/11/22/two-eyewitnesses-reunite-once-a-year-on-anniversary-of-kennedys-death

 

PS --  As to whether or not Baker and Truly encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, I don't see how Lovelady's and Calvery's being on the TSBD steps 30 or-so seconds after the final shot has any bearing on that issue.  Am I missing something, here?

--  Tommy

You seem to be missing loads

[Thomas Graves]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You seem to be missing loads

Bart,

Missing a lot of people, or missing a lot concept-wise?

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/7/2017 at 11:19 PM, Thomas Graves said:

I and you (lol) believe that....

Well if you're going to mock me like that, I'll bow out and let you do all the work.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well if you're going to mock me like that, I'll bow out and let you do all the work.

 

Dear Sandy,

I was emphasizing politeness as it is expressed grammatically in a humorous way, or so I thought.

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Sandy,

I was emphasizing politeness as it is expressed grammatically in a humorous way, or so I thought.

--  Tommy

Okay, sorry.

(Though I don't know what politeness and grammar have to do with what I said. Or what you said.)