More Carcano questions/speculation

[Mark Knight]

I'm starting a separate thread, so as not to hijack Duke's discussion of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD.

[Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

Now, here you may actually be onto something. For years, the argument has always been whether or not Oswld carried the rifle into the TSBD on November 22; I don't know if I've ever heard a theory that Oswald might have smuggled part of the rifle into the TSBD at an earlier date, and then just brought the barrel in on the 22nd.

But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

Perhaps this might even open up a discussion that Oswald might have obtained the 91/38 in pieces, rather than as a complete rifle [as the 91/24 from Klein's was when shipped to him].

Only problem is, Ozzie presumably would've had to bring the rifle stock and receiver, either to his apartment or to the TSBD, from the Payne residence in Irving at some time as well...and there's just no evidence or testimony on record of which I'm aware that would cover that possibility. Not to say he couldn't or didn't do it some other time; just that there's nothing in the record to indicate that he did.

Or perhaps the 91/38 never was in Irving [we only "know" that the 91/24 from Klein's was allegedly stored there], meaning that he could've brought the 91/38 into the TSBD pretty much anytime.

We can establish from the evidence that Oswald ordered, and was sent from Klein's, the 91/24. We can pretty much establish that the 91/38 was found in the TSBD. But either police recovered--and suppressed-- the 91/24, or it was never recovered [and might still exist somewhere].

Or maybe LHO actually did "bury" the 91/24 after the Walker shooting, and the rifle he brought home later was the 91/38...and nobody was the wiser except LHO. Using the inaccurate 91/24 might explain the miss in the Walker shooting, while using the accurate 91/38 would certainly explain the hits in the JFK shooting.

Or maybe the switcheroo was done in N'awlins.

[Wim Dankbaar]

Oswald didn't bring a Carcano into the TSBD. Others did that.

If you're looking for some answers on the Carcano game that was played before the assassination, just watch this:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8250980122157253214

Wim

[Robert Howard]

Oswald didn't bring a Carcano into the TSBD. Others did that.

If you're looking for some answers on the Carcano game that was played before the assassination, just watch this:

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=8250980122157253214

Wim

There are so many areas of the assassination, where there is such an overwhelming amount of information to absorb, that getting facts integrated into a complete whole, minus the inaccurate, false information is the real challenge.

Personally, I submit that one real area that invites closer inspection, is the story regarding Richard "Dick" Hathcock and that rifle, although I am not stating definitively that it was the rifle used in the JFK assassination. But I certainly believe the facts will validate my opinion.

[Terry Adams]

Richard "Dick" Hathcock--"And I'm sure Mr. Payne can tell you a great deal more about that rifle then I can. The day after John Kennedy was killed in Dallas, I received a phone call from Jerry Crowe, an FBI agent here in Los Angeles, who asked me if I had an agent working for me who was named Roy Payne and I said yes. Jerry wanted to know if he could come by the office and see me and Mr. Payne, and we arranged for that meeting. It's my opinion that the reason he wanted to see Mr. Payne was because Payne's fingerprints undoubtedly were all over that rifle from his having handled it so many time. It's also my opinion that, unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in the whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest in it."

Robert,

I had read this article before and was left with the same feeling that I have now. I believed then as well as now that Loran Hall was directly involved in the assassination of the president. I have always felt that Gerry Hemming either was involved or had knowledge, but, in actuality, he may have just been in the same circles as the killers. I'm not really sure on that. I think that his "involvement" will always be a matter of contention.

Terry

Edited November 5, 2008 by Terry Adams

[Robert Howard]

Richard "Dick" Hathcock--"And I'm sure Mr. Payne can tell you a great deal more about that rifle then I can. The day after John Kennedy was killed in Dallas, I received a phone call from Jerry Crowe, an FBI agent here in Los Angeles, who asked me if I had an agent working for me who was named Roy Payne and I said yes. Jerry wanted to know if he could come by the office and see me and Mr. Payne, and we arranged for that meeting. It's my opinion that the reason he wanted to see Mr. Payne was because Payne's fingerprints undoubtedly were all over that rifle from his having handled it so many time. It's also my opinion that, unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in the whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest in it."

Robert,

I had read this article before and was left with the same feeling that I have now. I believed then as well as now that Loran Hall was directly involved in the assassination of the president. I have always felt that Gerry Hemming either was involved or had knowledge, but, in actuality, he may have just been in the same circles as the killers. I'm not really sure on that. I think that his "involvement" will always be a matter of contention.

Terry

The main reason that the Richard Hathcock issue strikes me is the description of the rifle. Adding to the conundrum about Hemming is the voluminous amount of documents at NARA regarding him. I think Noel Twyman, did a timeline of his activities on 11/22/63 detailing how he conceivably could have been in Dallas, and flown back to Miami to be where he was according to his alibi, I agree that it remains an area extremely difficult to pinpoint with any exact degree of certainty.

[Mark Knight]

... But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

A definite thought ... but aren't curtain rods straight? Did the gun barrel separate from the firing mechanism? How would a "curtain rod" with a trigger sticking out the side and an offset onto which the stock attached not raise an eyebrow?

Yes, Duke, the barrel does separate from the firing mechanism.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp...erModel=1240z38

Reference #14 in the diagram. So the barrel wouldn't have any of the receiver or "action" attached, if it were disassembled...and could conceivably have been carried in separately from the rest of the rifle. The barrel shown here is 20.9" long; now, I'm 6'1" tall, a bit taller than LHO, but I wouldn't have any problem carrying a 21" rifle barrel tucked under my armpit in my cupped hand.

[Duke Lane]

I'm starting a separate thread, so as not to hijack Duke's discussion of Oswald's movements after leaving the TSBD.

Appreciated by all, I'm sure. So I'll reply to your post there, here, and comment on your most recent here, below:

... But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

A definite thought ... but aren't curtain rods straight? Did the gun barrel separate from the firing mechanism? How would a "curtain rod" with a trigger sticking out the side and an offset onto which the stock attached not raise an eyebrow?

Yes, Duke, the barrel does separate from the firing mechanism.

[image from gun parts website.

Watermark or no, it's not copyrighted or copyrightable.]

Reference #14 in the diagram. So the barrel wouldn't have any of the receiver or "action" attached, if it were disassembled...and could conceivably have been carried in separately from the rest of the rifle. The barrel shown here is 20.9" long; now, I'm 6'1" tall, a bit taller than LHO, but I wouldn't have any problem carrying a 21" rifle barrel tucked under my armpit in my cupped hand. ...

Good find. I'm 5'11" and wear 34" sleeves; I can put 23" under my arm with my fingers extended as far as they'll go while still being able to hold onto something, "cupping" it in my hand and not wrapping my hand around it where it can extend beyond the end of my hand; 21" is probably the extent to which I can cup it and not appear to be holding anything.

[Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

Now, here you may actually be onto something. For years, the argument has always been whether or not Oswld carried the rifle into the TSBD on November 22; I don't know if I've ever heard a theory that Oswald might have smuggled part of the rifle into the TSBD at an earlier date, and then just brought the barrel in on the 22nd.

But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

Perhaps this might even open up a discussion that Oswald might have obtained the 91/38 in pieces, rather than as a complete rifle [as the 91/24 from Klein's was when shipped to him].

Only problem is, Ozzie presumably would've had to bring the rifle stock and receiver, either to his apartment or to the TSBD, from the Payne residence in Irving at some time as well...and there's just no evidence or testimony on record of which I'm aware that would cover that possibility. Not to say he couldn't or didn't do it some other time; just that there's nothing in the record to indicate that he did.

At the other end of that equation, we'd also have to allow for him to assemble the rifle from these myriad pieces, with machine screws to boot (typically with slots smaller than a dime, as used to piece the stock and action together), and presumably more time to assemble, which he didn't have very much of to begin with (to the tune of under a minute ... which would've been too late anyway if the motorcade had been on time!). I'd think on that basis alone - not to even mention getting the other parts to and from Irving/1026 - you'd have to discount this notion, no matter how enticing a solo rifle barrel in a "curtain rods" package might be.

Or perhaps the 91/38 never was in Irving [we only "know" that the 91/24 from Klein's was allegedly stored there], meaning that he could've brought the 91/38 into the TSBD pretty much anytime.

We can establish from the evidence that Oswald ordered, and was sent from Klein's, the 91/24. We can pretty much establish that the 91/38 was found in the TSBD. But either police recovered--and suppressed-- the 91/24, or it was never recovered [and might still exist somewhere].

Or maybe LHO actually did "bury" the 91/24 after the Walker shooting, and the rifle he brought home later was the 91/38...and nobody was the wiser except LHO. Using the inaccurate 91/24 might explain the miss in the Walker shooting, while using the accurate 91/38 would certainly explain the hits in the JFK shooting.

Or maybe the switcheroo was done in N'awlins.

But can we put a 91/38 into Ozzie's possession anywhere other than - TFIC - on the sixth floor? Where did he get it? How do we know he got it? Sure, it could've been passed off to him by anyone, anywhere, "under cover of darkness," as it were ... but we don't have any documentation on what "could've" occurred that we have no way of knowing about.

[Jack White]

Speculation is not needed about the Carcano

Visit Jerry McCleer's website at

http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/

and be sure to click on the dozen or so different pages listed on the home page.

You will learn that CE139 was not used to kill JFK, and that two different rifles

or more are in photos.

Stop speculation...look at the facts.

Jack

[Mark Knight]

Duke, you've touched upon some of the points I've attempted to make over the past several months. From the available evidence, LHO ordered from Klein's and received the model 91/24...which is pretty much incapable of sufficient accuracy to have shot JFK from the TSBD. The Carcano recovered from the TSBD is a model 91/38, which IS perfectly capable of the JFK shooting. But there's simply no evidence--at least publicly available--that Oswald ever had a 91/38 in his possession.

So if we allow that, according to the record, the 91/38 was found in the TSBD [Mauser claims notwithstanding], it had to get there somehow. And it obviously was NOT Oswald's 91/24, so the entire idea of Ozzie bringing it with him on the morning of the 22nd is a pretty hard sell...particularly since we cannot put a 91/38 into Oswald's possession anytine prior to November 22nd.

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know. Maybe Oswald's assignment that day was to bring in a previously-acquired barrel for a 91/38, and nothing more. That would make him a part of a conspiracy, but not necessarily the triggerman. It would make sense out of the FBI lab's claim of finding Oswald's print on the underside of the barrel of the 91/38, while still allowing Oswald to be telling the truth when he said, "I didn't shoot anybody." It would also make his moves after leaving the TSBD more logical...knowing he might be implicated in the conspiracy, he heads home and picks up his revolver, for example, because he realizes that his life is now in danger...if not from police, then from fellow conspirators who think he may talk. And Oswald doesn't realize HOW screwed he is until he's in police custody and they inform him on Saturday that the serial number on the alleged presidential murder weapon matches a rifle that can be traced to him.

Sure, that's conjecture. But it makes a lot more sense than trying to pass off a 91/38 as the 91/24 that Oswald bought, which the WC tries to do. And if Ozzie's only task is to bring in the rifle barrel, that would leave someone else to deal with the assembly of the rifle, as well as the actual shooting. And if the rifle's action isn't disassembled beyond the removal of the barrel, it's a relatively simple matter to install the barrel and the action into the stock, and no intricate assembly is required. So Ozzie can be on the second floor drinking a Coke and eating lunch, and still have left his print on the underside of the rifle barrel.

And someone else is the shooter. As Tom Purvis has pointed out many times, even in his three shots/three hits/eight second scenario, anyone with average hunting/shooting ability could've made those three under-100-yard shots. It didn't take someone with specialized sniper skills; just an average shooter would do for the task at hand. [Maybe even someone with white powder/dust in his hair...???]

Having Oswald assigned the task of simply bringing in the rifle barrel is a better fit for the facts we know than the idea of him bringing in a complete rifle, one which there's no evidence he ever owned. It explains how he could get to the second floor when Officer Baker bursts in, as he was never on the 6th floor. And it explains the palmprint on the underside of the barrel...as well as giving Oswald a different motive for arming himself after the shooting.

Problem is, there's no evidence beyond the palmprint that Oswald handled the barrel on the 91/38. But if we assume that the palmprint wasn't planted, that it actually was there just as the FBI claims, having Ozzie bring in ONLY the barrel--and not a complete rifle--suddenly makes a lot of the other pieces fit the puzzle.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Duke, you've touched upon some of the points I've attempted to make over the past several months. From the available evidence, LHO ordered from Klein's and received the model 91/24...which is pretty much incapable of sufficient accuracy to have shot JFK from the TSBD. The Carcano recovered from the TSBD is a model 91/38, which IS perfectly capable of the JFK shooting. But there's simply no evidence--at least publicly available--that Oswald ever had a 91/38 in his possession.

So if we allow that, according to the record, the 91/38 was found in the TSBD [Mauser claims notwithstanding], it had to get there somehow. And it obviously was NOT Oswald's 91/24, so the entire idea of Ozzie bringing it with him on the morning of the 22nd is a pretty hard sell...particularly since we cannot put a 91/38 into Oswald's possession anytine prior to November 22nd.

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know. Maybe Oswald's assignment that day was to bring in a previously-acquired barrel for a 91/38, and nothing more. That would make him a part of a conspiracy, but not necessarily the triggerman. It would make sense out of the FBI lab's claim of finding Oswald's print on the underside of the barrel of the 91/38, while still allowing Oswald to be telling the truth when he said, "I didn't shoot anybody." It would also make his moves after leaving the TSBD more logical...knowing he might be implicated in the conspiracy, he heads home and picks up his revolver, for example, because he realizes that his life is now in danger...if not from police, then from fellow conspirators who think he may talk. And Oswald doesn't realize HOW screwed he is until he's in police custody and they inform him on Saturday that the serial number on the alleged presidential murder weapon matches a rifle that can be traced to him.

Sure, that's conjecture. But it makes a lot more sense than trying to pass off a 91/38 as the 91/24 that Oswald bought, which the WC tries to do. And if Ozzie's only task is to bring in the rifle barrel, that would leave someone else to deal with the assembly of the rifle, as well as the actual shooting. And if the rifle's action isn't disassembled beyond the removal of the barrel, it's a relatively simple matter to install the barrel and the action into the stock, and no intricate assembly is required. So Ozzie can be on the second floor drinking a Coke and eating lunch, and still have left his print on the underside of the rifle barrel.

And someone else is the shooter. As Tom Purvis has pointed out many times, even in his three shots/three hits/eight second scenario, anyone with average hunting/shooting ability could've made those three under-100-yard shots. It didn't take someone with specialized sniper skills; just an average shooter would do for the task at hand. [Maybe even someone with white powder/dust in his hair...???]

Having Oswald assigned the task of simply bringing in the rifle barrel is a better fit for the facts we know than the idea of him bringing in a complete rifle, one which there's no evidence he ever owned. It explains how he could get to the second floor when Officer Baker bursts in, as he was never on the 6th floor. And it explains the palmprint on the underside of the barrel...as well as giving Oswald a different motive for arming himself after the shooting.

Problem is, there's no evidence beyond the palmprint that Oswald handled the barrel on the 91/38. But if we assume that the palmprint wasn't planted, that it actually was there just as the FBI claims, having Ozzie bring in ONLY the barrel--and not a complete rifle--suddenly makes a lot of the other pieces fit the puzzle.

Mark;

1. Although the available evidence is indicative that LHO ordered a "36" length Carcano Carbine", in which the ad/Order Form demonstrates the Model 91/24 version of this weapon, there is still insufficient evidence to state as absolutely factual, that LHO did not receive a Model 91/38 Short Rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods.

Therefore, the "Burden of Proof" would have to fall on those who attempt to state as fact that LHO received the Model 91/38 Short Rifle, as there is no absolute proof that anything other than the ordered item was sent to LHO.

2. The "Backyard Photographs" of LHO in which he is holding a rifle, ABSOLUTELY demonstrate that he is holding a "SHORT RIFLE".

However, one can not tell from the photographs whether the weapon which is being held is a Model 38 (7.35mm caliber version) or a Model 91/38 (6.5mm caliber version) of the weapon.

Just as one can not tell if the serial number on the barrel is, or is not C2766.

An additional item which the photograph CAN NOT accomplish is the simple fact that although LHO is most definitely holding a Short Rifle, the photograph can not serve as any form of proof that the weapon being held has any connection to the Carcano Carbine which LHO ordered from Klein's.

This is the "connection" which the WC/FBI have attempted to pass off, and it is a fallacy of logic.

The usage of "association" in attempting to utilize the backyard photo as proof that LHO received this weapon from the order to Klein's, does not withstand the test of many applications of logic. However, it most clearly served the purpose of "association" which it has accomplished.

As a result of the multliple photographs which LHO had taken of himself holding the "Short Rifle", it would almost appear as if he has gone out of his way to present to us sufficient evidence to convince us that the "association" between the weapon being held and the weapon ordered from Klein's, are the one and same weapon.

3. It is most unlikely that LHO carried merely a "rifle barrel" into the TSDB, in which the barrel was later screwed into the receiver for assembly.

Proper seating of the barrel into the receiver would require special equipment which could exert several thousand pounds of torque.

Nevertheless, one must pay compliment to the final demonstrations of "alternative thinking" which this questionable activity has finally brought out.

As I long ago "hinted" at on this forum, any good "Marine" who has ever had to pass the "White Glove Test" would know the simplicity of "hiding" the operating parts of a weapon (receiver & barrel assembly).

As, it was virtually impossible to pass the "White Glove Test" after the weapon had been fired, without taking the weapon apart and sneaking the barrel/receiver assembley into the shower, rolled up in a towel, and thereafter completely scrubbing the weapon down with warm soapy water.

Another "hint" which I have often given, is that of the location of the "Sling Pad" on the leather belt sling.

===============================================================================

The pad is in a position in which the weapon would be carried at an "upside down" version of sling arms, which of course, the USMC also has their own nomenclature.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #11

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

===============================================================================

4. As we have repeatedly been informed, the Short Rifle is, for all practical purposes, 40 inches in length, and one would certainly have difficulty fitting it into the known "paper bag" and carrying it under one's arm.

Seperately, the stock assembly is approximately 34 and 3/4 inches in length, and the actual barrel/receiver/bolt mechanism (that part which one would want to sneak into the shower) is only 29 inches in length and one can easily carry it draped in the arm.

The WC did not want to pursue the probability that the Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized to shoot JFK was in fact carried to the TSDB on two seperate days/two separate occasions, in two completely distinct and seperate times as this would serve to indicate "Prior" planning to get the weapon into the TSDB and would thus negate the "Lone Nut" theory in which LHO merely had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 and therefore made a single trip to the Paine Home and secured the weapon in a single trip.

5. Lastly! The Carcano Short Rifle has been around the "arms market" for a considerable length of time.

The earliest ad that I am aware of is from the 1959 era in which the 7.35mm versions of the weapoin were being sold extensively.

As I have previously indicated, the Carcano was quite common during the Castro revolution, and there is more than sufficient evidence to indicate that quite possibly, the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo was in fact manufactured for Castro.

The truly nice thing about the Carcano is it's "interchangeability".

For example:

Say that at some point in time prior to 11/22/63, that I ordered a Carcano Short Rifle from one of the multitudes of dealers from the West Coast to the East Coast, who sold these weapons in the common 7.35mm version. Then, I would most probably also include in with the order, to add in some ammo as well as an ammo clip.

Now of course, were I to desire to do so, I could have my photo taken with this weapon.

At some point in time, assume that I thereafter ordered a "junk" Carbine from Klein's Sporting Goods, which in effect now pointed the finger at a CIA Front weapons dealer.

Unfortunately, to available knowledge, there was no WCC ammo made for the 7.35mm versions of these weapons. However, with the availabily of thousands of these weapons, there would be little difficulty in acquisition of a Short Rifle barrel which either bore the exact same serial number as the weapon received from Kleins, or else a "close proximity" of the serial number which could be further altered to represent the identical number. (assuming the correct connections)

Especially, when one considers the potential thousands of these Short Rifle barrels which were recovered in "War Stocks" which the barrels were for replacement and had never had a serial number stamped into them.

When one owns a 7.35mm version of the Short Rifle, which could have been ordered at any time from the 1950's to the early 1960's, then it is most unlikely that anyone would ever trace that specific order to me, were the weapon to show up on the sixth floor of the TSDB on 11/22/63 with a 6.5mm barrel installed onto the weapon.

Everything about the Carcano weapon points to either establishment of LHO as the "Designated Patsy" (with his cooperation I might add), or a well planned, conceived, and executed covert operation which ultimately resulted in JFK having been shot with a weapon which was a portion of the plan for this operation.

[David G. Healy]

Duke, you've touched upon some of the points I've attempted to make over the past several months. From the available evidence, LHO ordered from Klein's and received the model 91/24...which is pretty much incapable of sufficient accuracy to have shot JFK from the TSBD. The Carcano recovered from the TSBD is a model 91/38, which IS perfectly capable of the JFK shooting. But there's simply no evidence--at least publicly available--that Oswald ever had a 91/38 in his possession.

So if we allow that, according to the record, the 91/38 was found in the TSBD [Mauser claims notwithstanding], it had to get there somehow. And it obviously was NOT Oswald's 91/24, so the entire idea of Ozzie bringing it with him on the morning of the 22nd is a pretty hard sell...particularly since we cannot put a 91/38 into Oswald's possession anytine prior to November 22nd.

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know. Maybe Oswald's assignment that day was to bring in a previously-acquired barrel for a 91/38, and nothing more. That would make him a part of a conspiracy, but not necessarily the triggerman. It would make sense out of the FBI lab's claim of finding Oswald's print on the underside of the barrel of the 91/38, while still allowing Oswald to be telling the truth when he said, "I didn't shoot anybody." It would also make his moves after leaving the TSBD more logical...knowing he might be implicated in the conspiracy, he heads home and picks up his revolver, for example, because he realizes that his life is now in danger...if not from police, then from fellow conspirators who think he may talk. And Oswald doesn't realize HOW screwed he is until he's in police custody and they inform him on Saturday that the serial number on the alleged presidential murder weapon matches a rifle that can be traced to him.

Sure, that's conjecture. But it makes a lot more sense than trying to pass off a 91/38 as the 91/24 that Oswald bought, which the WC tries to do. And if Ozzie's only task is to bring in the rifle barrel, that would leave someone else to deal with the assembly of the rifle, as well as the actual shooting. And if the rifle's action isn't disassembled beyond the removal of the barrel, it's a relatively simple matter to install the barrel and the action into the stock, and no intricate assembly is required. So Ozzie can be on the second floor drinking a Coke and eating lunch, and still have left his print on the underside of the rifle barrel.

And someone else is the shooter. As Tom Purvis has pointed out many times, even in his three shots/three hits/eight second scenario, anyone with average hunting/shooting ability could've made those three under-100-yard shots. It didn't take someone with specialized sniper skills; just an average shooter would do for the task at hand. [Maybe even someone with white powder/dust in his hair...???]

Having Oswald assigned the task of simply bringing in the rifle barrel is a better fit for the facts we know than the idea of him bringing in a complete rifle, one which there's no evidence he ever owned. It explains how he could get to the second floor when Officer Baker bursts in, as he was never on the 6th floor. And it explains the palmprint on the underside of the barrel...as well as giving Oswald a different motive for arming himself after the shooting.

Problem is, there's no evidence beyond the palmprint that Oswald handled the barrel on the 91/38. But if we assume that the palmprint wasn't planted, that it actually was there just as the FBI claims, having Ozzie bring in ONLY the barrel--and not a complete rifle--suddenly makes a lot of the other pieces fit the puzzle.

Mark;

1. Although the available evidence is indicative that LHO ordered a "36" length Carcano Carbine", in which the ad/Order Form demonstrates the Model 91/24 version of this weapon, there is still insufficient evidence to state as absolutely factual, that LHO did not receive a Model 91/38 Short Rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods.

Therefore, the "Burden of Proof" would have to fall on those who attempt to state as fact that LHO received the Model 91/38 Short Rifle, as there is no absolute proof that anything other than the ordered item was sent to LHO.

2. The "Backyard Photographs" of LHO in which he is holding a rifle, ABSOLUTELY demonstrate that he is holding a "SHORT RIFLE".

However, one can not tell from the photographs whether the weapon which is being held is a Model 38 (7.35mm caliber version) or a Model 91/38 (6.5mm caliber version) of the weapon.

Just as one can not tell if the serial number on the barrel is, or is not C2766.

An additional item which the photograph CAN NOT accomplish is the simple fact that although LHO is most definitely holding a Short Rifle, the photograph can not serve as any form of proof that the weapon being held has any connection to the Carcano Carbine which LHO ordered from Klein's.

This is the "connection" which the WC/FBI have attempted to pass off, and it is a fallacy of logic.

The usage of "association" in attempting to utilize the backyard photo as proof that LHO received this weapon from the order to Klein's, does not withstand the test of many applications of logic. However, it most clearly served the purpose of "association" which it has accomplished.

As a result of the multliple photographs which LHO had taken of himself holding the "Short Rifle", it would almost appear as if he has gone out of his way to present to us sufficient evidence to convince us that the "association" between the weapon being held and the weapon ordered from Klein's, are the one and same weapon.

3. It is most unlikely that LHO carried merely a "rifle barrel" into the TSDB, in which the barrel was later screwed into the receiver for assembly.

Proper seating of the barrel into the receiver would require special equipment which could exert several thousand pounds of torque.

Nevertheless, one must pay compliment to the final demonstrations of "alternative thinking" which this questionable activity has finally brought out.

As I long ago "hinted" at on this forum, any good "Marine" who has ever had to pass the "White Glove Test" would know the simplicity of "hiding" the operating parts of a weapon (receiver & barrel assembly).

As, it was virtually impossible to pass the "White Glove Test" after the weapon had been fired, without taking the weapon apart and sneaking the barrel/receiver assembley into the shower, rolled up in a towel, and thereafter completely scrubbing the weapon down with warm soapy water.

Another "hint" which I have often given, is that of the location of the "Sling Pad" on the leather belt sling.

===============================================================================

The pad is in a position in which the weapon would be carried at an "upside down" version of sling arms, which of course, the USMC also has their own nomenclature.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #11

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

===============================================================================

4. As we have repeatedly been informed, the Short Rifle is, for all practical purposes, 40 inches in length, and one would certainly have difficulty fitting it into the known "paper bag" and carrying it under one's arm.

Seperately, the stock assembly is approximately 34 and 3/4 inches in length, and the actual barrel/receiver/bolt mechanism (that part which one would want to sneak into the shower) is only 29 inches in length and one can easily carry it draped in the arm.

The WC did not want to pursue the probability that the Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized to shoot JFK was in fact carried to the TSDB on two seperate days/two separate occasions, in two completely distinct and seperate times as this would serve to indicate "Prior" planning to get the weapon into the TSDB and would thus negate the "Lone Nut" theory in which LHO merely had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 and therefore made a single trip to the Paine Home and secured the weapon in a single trip.

5. Lastly! The Carcano Short Rifle has been around the "arms market" for a considerable length of time.

The earliest ad that I am aware of is from the 1959 era in which the 7.35mm versions of the weapoin were being sold extensively.

As I have previously indicated, the Carcano was quite common during the Castro revolution, and there is more than sufficient evidence to indicate that quite possibly, the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo was in fact manufactured for Castro.

The truly nice thing about the Carcano is it's "interchangeability".

For example:

Say that at some point in time prior to 11/22/63, that I ordered a Carcano Short Rifle from one of the multitudes of dealers from the West Coast to the East Coast, who sold these weapons in the common 7.35mm version. Then, I would most probably also include in with the order, to add in some ammo as well as an ammo clip.

Now of course, were I to desire to do so, I could have my photo taken with this weapon.

At some point in time, assume that I thereafter ordered a "junk" Carbine from Klein's Sporting Goods, which in effect now pointed the finger at a CIA Front weapons dealer.

Unfortunately, to available knowledge, there was no WCC ammo made for the 7.35mm versions of these weapons. However, with the availabily of thousands of these weapons, there would be little difficulty in acquisition of a Short Rifle barrel which either bore the exact same serial number as the weapon received from Kleins, or else a "close proximity" of the serial number which could be further altered to represent the identical number. (assuming the correct connections)

Especially, when one considers the potential thousands of these Short Rifle barrels which were recovered in "War Stocks" which the barrels were for replacement and had never had a serial number stamped into them.

When one owns a 7.35mm version of the Short Rifle, which could have been ordered at any time from the 1950's to the early 1960's, then it is most unlikely that anyone would ever trace that specific order to me, were the weapon to show up on the sixth floor of the TSDB on 11/22/63 with a 6.5mm barrel installed onto the weapon.

Everything about the Carcano weapon points to either establishment of LHO as the "Designated Patsy" (with his cooperation I might add), or a well planned, conceived, and executed covert operation which ultimately resulted in JFK having been shot with a weapon which was a portion of the plan for this operation.

I sincerely hope others are following this enlightening thread... Thanks especially to Duke, Mark and Tom.

DHealy

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Duke, you've touched upon some of the points I've attempted to make over the past several months. From the available evidence, LHO ordered from Klein's and received the model 91/24...which is pretty much incapable of sufficient accuracy to have shot JFK from the TSBD. The Carcano recovered from the TSBD is a model 91/38, which IS perfectly capable of the JFK shooting. But there's simply no evidence--at least publicly available--that Oswald ever had a 91/38 in his possession.

So if we allow that, according to the record, the 91/38 was found in the TSBD [Mauser claims notwithstanding], it had to get there somehow. And it obviously was NOT Oswald's 91/24, so the entire idea of Ozzie bringing it with him on the morning of the 22nd is a pretty hard sell...particularly since we cannot put a 91/38 into Oswald's possession anytine prior to November 22nd.

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know. Maybe Oswald's assignment that day was to bring in a previously-acquired barrel for a 91/38, and nothing more. That would make him a part of a conspiracy, but not necessarily the triggerman. It would make sense out of the FBI lab's claim of finding Oswald's print on the underside of the barrel of the 91/38, while still allowing Oswald to be telling the truth when he said, "I didn't shoot anybody." It would also make his moves after leaving the TSBD more logical...knowing he might be implicated in the conspiracy, he heads home and picks up his revolver, for example, because he realizes that his life is now in danger...if not from police, then from fellow conspirators who think he may talk. And Oswald doesn't realize HOW screwed he is until he's in police custody and they inform him on Saturday that the serial number on the alleged presidential murder weapon matches a rifle that can be traced to him.

Sure, that's conjecture. But it makes a lot more sense than trying to pass off a 91/38 as the 91/24 that Oswald bought, which the WC tries to do. And if Ozzie's only task is to bring in the rifle barrel, that would leave someone else to deal with the assembly of the rifle, as well as the actual shooting. And if the rifle's action isn't disassembled beyond the removal of the barrel, it's a relatively simple matter to install the barrel and the action into the stock, and no intricate assembly is required. So Ozzie can be on the second floor drinking a Coke and eating lunch, and still have left his print on the underside of the rifle barrel.

And someone else is the shooter. As Tom Purvis has pointed out many times, even in his three shots/three hits/eight second scenario, anyone with average hunting/shooting ability could've made those three under-100-yard shots. It didn't take someone with specialized sniper skills; just an average shooter would do for the task at hand. [Maybe even someone with white powder/dust in his hair...???]

Having Oswald assigned the task of simply bringing in the rifle barrel is a better fit for the facts we know than the idea of him bringing in a complete rifle, one which there's no evidence he ever owned. It explains how he could get to the second floor when Officer Baker bursts in, as he was never on the 6th floor. And it explains the palmprint on the underside of the barrel...as well as giving Oswald a different motive for arming himself after the shooting.

Problem is, there's no evidence beyond the palmprint that Oswald handled the barrel on the 91/38. But if we assume that the palmprint wasn't planted, that it actually was there just as the FBI claims, having Ozzie bring in ONLY the barrel--and not a complete rifle--suddenly makes a lot of the other pieces fit the puzzle.

Mark;

1. Although the available evidence is indicative that LHO ordered a "36" length Carcano Carbine", in which the ad/Order Form demonstrates the Model 91/24 version of this weapon, there is still insufficient evidence to state as absolutely factual, that LHO did not receive a Model 91/38 Short Rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods.

Therefore, the "Burden of Proof" would have to fall on those who attempt to state as fact that LHO received the Model 91/38 Short Rifle, as there is no absolute proof that anything other than the ordered item was sent to LHO.

2. The "Backyard Photographs" of LHO in which he is holding a rifle, ABSOLUTELY demonstrate that he is holding a "SHORT RIFLE".

However, one can not tell from the photographs whether the weapon which is being held is a Model 38 (7.35mm caliber version) or a Model 91/38 (6.5mm caliber version) of the weapon.

Just as one can not tell if the serial number on the barrel is, or is not C2766.

An additional item which the photograph CAN NOT accomplish is the simple fact that although LHO is most definitely holding a Short Rifle, the photograph can not serve as any form of proof that the weapon being held has any connection to the Carcano Carbine which LHO ordered from Klein's.

This is the "connection" which the WC/FBI have attempted to pass off, and it is a fallacy of logic.

The usage of "association" in attempting to utilize the backyard photo as proof that LHO received this weapon from the order to Klein's, does not withstand the test of many applications of logic. However, it most clearly served the purpose of "association" which it has accomplished.

As a result of the multliple photographs which LHO had taken of himself holding the "Short Rifle", it would almost appear as if he has gone out of his way to present to us sufficient evidence to convince us that the "association" between the weapon being held and the weapon ordered from Klein's, are the one and same weapon.

3. It is most unlikely that LHO carried merely a "rifle barrel" into the TSDB, in which the barrel was later screwed into the receiver for assembly.

Proper seating of the barrel into the receiver would require special equipment which could exert several thousand pounds of torque.

Nevertheless, one must pay compliment to the final demonstrations of "alternative thinking" which this questionable activity has finally brought out.

As I long ago "hinted" at on this forum, any good "Marine" who has ever had to pass the "White Glove Test" would know the simplicity of "hiding" the operating parts of a weapon (receiver & barrel assembly).

As, it was virtually impossible to pass the "White Glove Test" after the weapon had been fired, without taking the weapon apart and sneaking the barrel/receiver assembley into the shower, rolled up in a towel, and thereafter completely scrubbing the weapon down with warm soapy water.

Another "hint" which I have often given, is that of the location of the "Sling Pad" on the leather belt sling.

===============================================================================

The pad is in a position in which the weapon would be carried at an "upside down" version of sling arms, which of course, the USMC also has their own nomenclature.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #11

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

===============================================================================

4. As we have repeatedly been informed, the Short Rifle is, for all practical purposes, 40 inches in length, and one would certainly have difficulty fitting it into the known "paper bag" and carrying it under one's arm.

Seperately, the stock assembly is approximately 34 and 3/4 inches in length, and the actual barrel/receiver/bolt mechanism (that part which one would want to sneak into the shower) is only 29 inches in length and one can easily carry it draped in the arm.

The WC did not want to pursue the probability that the Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized to shoot JFK was in fact carried to the TSDB on two seperate days/two separate occasions, in two completely distinct and seperate times as this would serve to indicate "Prior" planning to get the weapon into the TSDB and would thus negate the "Lone Nut" theory in which LHO merely had nothing better to do on 11/22/63 and therefore made a single trip to the Paine Home and secured the weapon in a single trip.

5. Lastly! The Carcano Short Rifle has been around the "arms market" for a considerable length of time.

The earliest ad that I am aware of is from the 1959 era in which the 7.35mm versions of the weapoin were being sold extensively.

As I have previously indicated, the Carcano was quite common during the Castro revolution, and there is more than sufficient evidence to indicate that quite possibly, the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo was in fact manufactured for Castro.

The truly nice thing about the Carcano is it's "interchangeability".

For example:

Say that at some point in time prior to 11/22/63, that I ordered a Carcano Short Rifle from one of the multitudes of dealers from the West Coast to the East Coast, who sold these weapons in the common 7.35mm version. Then, I would most probably also include in with the order, to add in some ammo as well as an ammo clip.

Now of course, were I to desire to do so, I could have my photo taken with this weapon.

At some point in time, assume that I thereafter ordered a "junk" Carbine from Klein's Sporting Goods, which in effect now pointed the finger at a CIA Front weapons dealer.

Unfortunately, to available knowledge, there was no WCC ammo made for the 7.35mm versions of these weapons. However, with the availabily of thousands of these weapons, there would be little difficulty in acquisition of a Short Rifle barrel which either bore the exact same serial number as the weapon received from Kleins, or else a "close proximity" of the serial number which could be further altered to represent the identical number. (assuming the correct connections)

Especially, when one considers the potential thousands of these Short Rifle barrels which were recovered in "War Stocks" which the barrels were for replacement and had never had a serial number stamped into them.

When one owns a 7.35mm version of the Short Rifle, which could have been ordered at any time from the 1950's to the early 1960's, then it is most unlikely that anyone would ever trace that specific order to me, were the weapon to show up on the sixth floor of the TSDB on 11/22/63 with a 6.5mm barrel installed onto the weapon.

Everything about the Carcano weapon points to either establishment of LHO as the "Designated Patsy" (with his cooperation I might add), or a well planned, conceived, and executed covert operation which ultimately resulted in JFK having been shot with a weapon which was a portion of the plan for this operation.

I sincerely hope others are following this enlightening thread... Thanks especially to Duke, Mark and Tom.

DHealy

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_101-125/doc0124.html

June 26, 1958

Investigation into the Cuban Revolutionary Activities.

1. On Tuesday, June 24, 1958, acting on information received from a confidential informant, W.L., a search warrant was obtained from Circuit Judge GORDON and served on two apartments at the Tradewinds Motel by the writer and the following officers: McKee, KAPPEL, TARABOCHIA, Detective HERBERT, of the City of Miami P.D., and Motel Commission Investigator JOHN KELLY.

2. In Apartment 107 of the Sun Coast Building the following material was found: 9 cases of 40% special gelatin, Dupont Red Cross dynamite, size one and a quarter by eight inches; one 45-caliber Colt automatic pistol, serial No. 1684093, with clip and ammunition; one 30-caliber rifle barrel; one Italian 7.35 caliber rifle, serial R2127; two Thompson sub-machine guns, serial Nos. removed; 30-caliber MI Springfield rifle, serial 560997; and numerous propaganda papers.

4. On Wednesday, June 25, the same informant disclosed that further material could be found in the Seaborne Building of the Tradewinds apartments. Assisted by Officers McKEE, CAPPELL, TARABOCHIE, KASSOFF, MOLINA, and Inspector KELLY, we returned to this location and searched the premises on the authority of the Hotel Commission Safety Inspection Regulations. In Apartment 102 we discovered 4,320 rounds of 7.35 Italian rifle ammunition.

http://cuban-exile.com/photo/misc/124_guns.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Duke Lane]

So if we allow that, according to the record, the 91/38 was found in the TSBD [Mauser claims notwithstanding], it had to get there somehow. And it obviously was NOT Oswald's 91/24, so the entire idea of Ozzie bringing it with him on the morning of the 22nd is a pretty hard sell...particularly since we cannot put a 91/38 into Oswald's possession anytine prior to November 22nd.

Or, actually, at any time at all. At least, not on a factual basis.

And if Ozzie's only task is to bring in the rifle barrel, that would leave someone else to deal with the assembly of the rifle, as well as the actual shooting. And if the rifle's action isn't disassembled beyond the removal of the barrel, it's a relatively simple matter to install the barrel and the action into the stock, and no intricate assembly is required. So Ozzie can be on the second floor drinking a Coke and eating lunch, and still have left his print on the underside of the rifle barrel.

And someone else is the shooter. ...

... Having Oswald assigned the task of simply bringing in the rifle barrel is a better fit for the facts we know than the idea of him bringing in a complete rifle, one which there's no evidence he ever owned. It explains how he could get to the second floor when Officer Baker bursts in, as he was never on the 6th floor. And it explains the palmprint on the underside of the barrel...as well as giving Oswald a different motive for arming himself after the shooting.

Well, I've never disputed that someone else was the shooter: Junior Jarman proved that ... which is fodder for a different thread! The simple fact that someone else was on the sixth floor (and had no need to make it downstairs in 90 seconds) is all the explanation necessary to "get" Oswald to the second floor.

Still, what remains to explain a piecemeal introduction of the weapon into TSBD is not only who had the opportunity to assemble it and where, but also who had convinced the taciturn stock boy to bring a solo rifle barrel into work (and there's no mistaking it for something it wasn't), why he had to go to Irving to get it (knowing as we do that he didn't bring it out with him on Thursday evening), and how it got to Irving in the first place.

Since he didn't bring it to Irving with him either on Thursday night (or at anytime prior that we know of), and I think that he remained inside all of that evening - didn't go out for a walk or to take a smoke - if the rifle barrel wasn't there already, then the only time there was for someone to get it to him would've been Friday morning between the Paines' and the Randles' homes.

We're then left with the question of why someone would meet Oswald clandestinely on the street in the morning only to give him something to take to work to either return to him (whoever gave Oz the package) or to give to someone else: why couldn't he take it to work himself (if the giver worked there) or even just take it there himself? It wouldn't seem that the giver would've known Oz from around Irving since Oz didn't "hang around" there, and that the only people he "socialized" with (using the term loosely) were people in Dallas, mostly those he worked with, so it would seem that whoever had given him the package had driven out from Dallas to Irving to give Oz a package to bring back to Dallas.

Red flags flying everywhere! Ozzie would do this ... why?

Another "possibility" is that someone in Dallas, perhaps at work, had asked Oz to pick up a package for him from someone out in Irving "the next time he was going there," which normally would have been over the weekend (too late to kill JFK) and not on Thursday. So, in theory, Oz either changed his normal schedule to accomodate a need for someone to have this package on a Friday morning (and he would do this ... why?), or else had coincidentally decided to go to Irving on the day before the assassination when this package would be needed, which provided, at the last minute, a convenient way to put this package containing a rifle barrel in his hands. This strikes me as leaving things entirely too much to chance, and/or just too great an opportunity to pass up when it suddenly arose, requiring some quick thinking and fast acting.

Implicating Oswald in a conspiracy (not then but now, long after the fact) such that he wittingly went to Irving to get a rifle barrel, wherever it was at the time, and bring it into work for someone, would seem to require that he actually plan it with someone, or at the very least, talk with them long enough to make the arrangements to pick up this package. Who would this have been, and when would they have conspired with him?

According to Mary Bledsoe, as well as to either or both Earlene Roberts and/or the Johnsons, Oswald was at home every evening except those when he'd (presumably) gone to Irving: practically every evening, if not every evening, is accounted for going back to October 8 when he moved into Bledsoe's house (he was there through October 15, when he moved into 1026 N Beckley, 1/2-mile away, the day before he'd started at TSBD. Just for fun, check out this map showing the distance between the two houses. If you zoom in on 1026 - the one with the red roof - you'll see there's an alleyway between Crawford and Beckley, allowing for a pleasant short-cut through the park. More on this later).

The only times he'd have had to plan the assassination was going to and from work, and on those occasional walks he'd take during his 45-minute lunch breaks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that his departure and arrival times at home were accounted for down to the minute, or even the hour, nor do I recall that there is any accounting of exactly how he got to and from either Bledsoe's house at 621 N Marsalis, or to the Johnsons' house at 1026 N Beckley. Did he take a bus? Which one? Are there reports from people who rode either of the bus lines that would've gone down Marsalis or down Beckley indicating when he got on or off of whichever bus it was that he rode? Is it possible that he got a ride from someone? If so, who? Did Earlene Roberts or the Johnsons indicate at what time Oswald left in the morning or came home at night? (Bledsoe's not such a major concern inasmuch as Oz wasn't working during that week. He was home during mid-afternoons, interrupting Bledsoe's naps, on at least a couple of the four days he was actually living there.)

So if he conspired with anyone, it seems as if those are the only times he had available to do so. If he walked or got a ride home - or even if he went straight home or not - we'd have no idea who he might've been chatted up by to get that package from Irving. Walking home or to work would've taken him about 40-45 minutes, which might be a viable idea going home, but not so much when he had a schedule to meet getting to work. A bus hardly seems to be the place to discuss something like this, other than perhaps asking the favor to pick up an innocuous package from a buddy who lives out in Irving "on Friday morning."

(Was it that weekend that Ruth Paine was planning to have a birthday party for one of her kids, or was that another weekend? I recall something about Ozzie's not wanting to be there among all those screaming brats, and that he either hadn't gone to Irving one weekend, or it was a reason for him not going to Irving the weekend of the 22nd. That's the only reason I could see that he would make a special trip for someone at a time he didn't normally go out there: "sure. Friday morning would be a good time. I can see Marina on Thursday, and skip the party on Saturday.")

Since we're playing "Fun With Conjecture," we should note that there was at least one other employee of the TSBD who rode a bus between work and home, and likewise rode a bus that Ozzie might've taken: the Marsalis bus that ran only a few blocks from Ozzie's new digs at 1026 and afforded him that pleasant short-cut through Lake Cliff Park, said bus route also going past his own home at 1827 South Marsalis. And, just to fill in some of the pieces, that fellow happened not to drive and might therefore have had a reasonable excuse to ask Oz to pick up a package for him from someone who lived a longer distance away than he'd want to walk or ride a bus, if a Dallas bus even served that section of Irving. This was, of course, the same fellow who said that he didn't see any package in Oswald's hands when Oz came into the building that morning, and wouldn't have wanted to admit having seen said package since he was the recipient of it.

So if Ozzie rode the Marsalis bus with Jack Dougherty, the two "oddballs" of the TSBD might've struck up something of a friendship (some "friend" Jack turned out to be, though, huh?), and actually chatted about the shooting - Jack could've gotten off the bus at 5th and walked to the park with Ozzie, where they could talk without being overheard, then got back on the bus using a transfer or paying an extra quarter to complete the ride home, being gladly reimbursed for the extra expense when the deed was finally done. The facts that Jack was also on the sixth floor immediately prior to the shooting and corralled the "three blind mice" on the fifth floor while Kennedy was getting drilled, and standing directly in the path of Oswald's supposed flight down the stairs (but managing not getting run down by him or even seeing him for that matter!), then finally helping the bad guys escape down the elevator while Baker and Truly were coming up the stairs, sure lends some credence to such a conjectural scenario, don't you think?

Maybe Oswald's assignment that day was to bring in a previously-acquired barrel for a 91/38, and nothing more. That would make him a part of a conspiracy, but not necessarily the triggerman. ... Oswald doesn't realize HOW screwed he is until he's in police custody and they inform him on Saturday that the serial number on the alleged presidential murder weapon matches a rifle that can be traced to him.

Well, of course he wasn't the triggerman, and while he might technically be "a part of a conspiracy," he wouldn't necessarily be a witting one, which can make all the difference in the world. Maybe under this scenario, he looked to see what was in the package, or even felt its end where that distinctive rounded-off little hole was together with a sighting post. OK, so this is Texas and someone had me bring in a new barrel for their rifle; so what? The President's been shot you say? From this building? Holy spit, Batman, I've been set up! I can maybe buy that. Maybe.

The latter half of that quote, however, leads to another problem, and that is that whoever had arranged for said barrel to somehow end up in Oswald's hands had to have known the serial number of the gun that had been delivered to Oswald (or Hidell) in order to somehow get a duplicate-serial numbered barrel to place into another stock. Leaving aside the issue of how that was managed, there remains the question of who would've known or been able to know the serial number of the 91/24 in order to be able to get a 91/38 barrel with the same serial number.

There is speculation that Ozzie had taken part in something of a "sting" operation in conjunction with Senator Thomas Dodd's Senate Subcommittee (of the Judiciary Committee) to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency. According to a law review of the Gun Control Act of 1968, "when Senator Thomas Dodd of Connecticut (a major gun-producing state) became chairman of the Senate Subcommittee on juvenile Delinquency in 1961, he 'directed the staff of the Subcommittee to initiate a full-scale inquiry into the interstate mail order gun problem.' During 1961-1962 staff studies of mail order guns sold to residents of the District of Columbia and several states provided evidence that 'criminals, immature juveniles, and other irresponsible persons were using the relative secrecy of the mail order-common carrier method of obtaining firearms, because they could not purchase guns under the laws in their own jurisdictions.' ... The emphasis in these hearings was on the mail order mechanism, juveniles and felons as purchasers, and 'the cheap products which are so frequently sold via mail order'," the review states, adding that "five days after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Senator Dodd amended his bill to cover mail order traffic in shotguns and rifles."

(Noteworthy is that, among those classes of people who are prohibited from owning firearms under the GCA are anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions, and anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship. Sound familiar?)

Under this auspice, in theory, Oswald was acting on behalf of some third party (presumably ATF?) in obtaining the rifle and handgun, and thus (which may or not be a part of the theory) would have surrendered either or both of these weapons to such a party. Whoever that might have been could conceivably have been privy to the serial number of the rifle that could've been traced to Oswald. But if not, who else might've had access to or knowledge of the "original" serial number to duplicate, and how might they have obtained, from all the MC rifles sold during that time frame (including by a large Dallas sporting goods chain, the name of which escapes me at the moment), a 91/38 barrel with the same serial number?

While arguably do-able, was it feasible to be accomplished by anyone whom Oswald might have trusted enough to take a package from blindly, without his knowing its contents? (It's fair to say that he didn't receive the package in Irving via mail or parcel delivery since no such delivery was remarked upon by Ruth Paine or Marina, either of whom might've actually received such a package during the day. Ruth was no friend of Oswald's - at least, not after he was accused of murder - and would seem likely to have remarked upon it had it actually happened.)

It would make sense out of the FBI lab's claim of finding Oswald's print on the underside of the barrel of the 91/38 ... [and] there's no evidence beyond the palmprint that Oswald handled the barrel on the 91/38.

Even without fingerprints? Other than resting the barrel on one's hand - and presuming that it was not merely the vestige of a full set of prints that were otherwise wiped off after the shooting - how does only a palmprint end up anywhere? Perhaps if there were a tear in the bag, there perhaps as a result of Oswald's opening it to confirm that the hole and sight post at the end were indeed part of a rifle barrel, it might be there while his fingerprints were on the outside of the bag, which would no longer seem to be in evidence (excluding that which was "found" on the sixth floor after the shooting based upon Frazier and Randle's testimony), but how else might that have occurred? If the barrel was in its wrapping the entire time, how did Oswald's palmprint end up on the barrel anyway?

(In A Citizen's Dissent, Mark Lane - no relation, btw!! - makes a point that palmprints are not as unique as fingerprints; maybe, maybe not, I just don't know. Even so, the odds of a non-unique palm print being found with ridges matching Oswald's in the same vicinity seem pretty long. What constitutes a "palmprint" anyway? Is it the heel of his hand that the print matched, or elsewhere such as the middle, which actually changes quite a bit?)

... It would also make his moves after leaving the TSBD more logical ... knowing he might be implicated in the conspiracy, he heads home and picks up his revolver, for example, because he realizes that his life is now in danger ... if not from police, then from fellow conspirators who think he may talk.

Realizing that his life might be in danger also accounts for his actions on Jefferson Boulevard, no matter who he thought was after his happy ass!

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know.

Well, I just alluded to a distinct possibility, but as I noted before, that's fodder for a different thread!

[Royce Bierma]

 Under this auspice, in theory, Oswald was acting on behalf of some third party (presumably ATF?) in obtaining the rifle and handgun, and thus (which may or not be a part of the theory) would have surrendered either or both of these weapons to such a party. Whoever that might have been could conceivably have been privy to the serial number of the rifle that could've been traced to Oswald. But if not, who else might've had access to or knowledge of the "original" serial number to duplicate, and how might they have obtained, from all the MC rifles sold during that time frame (including by a large Dallas sporting goods chain, the name of which escapes me at the moment), a 91/38 barrel with the same serial number?

So how did the 91/38 get inside the TSBD? Truth is, we'll probably never know.

Well, I just alluded to a distinct possibility, but as I noted before, that's fodder for a different thread!

Duke, it seems likely that Oswald could have been working with the ATF in association with Frank Ellsworth. Ellsworth, by the way, lived at 718 N. Zangs, not far from where Oswald lived. In that case, if Oswald were at work in March at J-C-S at the time he was supposed to have picked up the rifle, perhaps Ellsworth picked it up instead. Similarly with the pistol and the C.O.D. that needed to be paid for it. 

"But if not, who else might've had access to or knowledge of the "original" serial number to duplicate,...." 

Harry Holmes would have had access to the serial number at the post office and someone may have phoned ahead for him to involve himself in particular with the gun items. As an FBI informant, and possible ATF informant, he may have notified Ellsworth when the rifle and pistol arrived. The keys of course are the Hidell alias and the serial numbers. If they could tie Oswald to the Hidell alias AND the rifle order, and likewise to that alias and the pistol order, they could at least in part incriminate him. And once someone passed on the 2766 numbered rifle(as I believe the 38 short rifle was obtained via Montreal, and added the C, it would have been all set to help frame Oswald. Otherwise, as you suggest, someone buys a 38 short from a local source, either a store, or another gun owner. More likely the latter since the gun showed heavy usage in various areas of the rifle.

Roy Bierma

Edited November 8, 2008 by Royce Bierma

[Duke Lane]

Duke, it seems likely that Oswald could have been working with the ATF in association with Frank Ellsworth. Ellsworth, by the way, lived at 718 N. Zangs, not far from where Oswald lived. In that case, if Oswald were at work in March at J-C-S at the time he was supposed to have picked up the rifle, perhaps Ellsworth picked it up instead. Similarly with the pistol and the C.O.D. that needed to be paid for it.

But if not, who else might've had access to or knowledge of the "original" serial number to duplicate,...."

Harry Holmes would have had access to the serial number at the post office and someone may have phoned ahead for him to involve himself in particular with the gun items. As an FBI informant, and possible ATF informant, he may have notified Ellsworth when the rifle and pistol arrived. The keys of course are the Hidell alias and the serial numbers. If they could tie Oswald to the Hidell alias AND the rifle order, and likewise to that alias and the pistol order, they could at least in part incriminate him. And once someone passed on the 2766 numbered rifle (as I believe the 38 short rifle was obtained via Montreal), and added the C, it would have been all set to help frame Oswald. Otherwise, as you suggest, someone buys a 38 short from a local source, either a store, or another gun owner. More likely the latter since the gun showed heavy usage in various areas of the rifle.

While I'm not discounting any possibilities or necessarily playing devil's advocate here, I'm trying to work out how such a scenario might've played out.

We have a gun - presumably a 91/24 - with serial C2766 arrive by mail order addressed to the mailbox of Oswald/Hidell, one of whom signs for(?) the package. It is presumably in the possession of one Lee Harvey Oswald for some indeterminate period of time, and we will presume for the sake of argument that it likewise left his possession at some indeterminate time prior to November 21, 1963.

We now suppose that someone who planned to both shoot POTUS and implicate LHO is somehow not only aware of Oswald's mail-order purchase, but also the result of that purchase, to wit a cheap, almost useless piece of junk with no aim, a surplus Mannlicher-Carcano 91/24 that would just happen to also accept a barrel from a superior MC model 91/38 that differs only in the length of the barrel and consequently its ability to accurately hit stuff.

Said person is not only able to learn the serial number of the original rifle, but also is able to locate the action of a model 91/38 with the exact same serial number. While we know that there were in fact duplicate serial numbers on these rifles, one question to deal with is "what are the odds of finding two rifles in the United States available for sale at the same time with the same serial number?" I wouldn't think that it was possible to order guns or parts by serial number, would you?

If it were possible, I'd be surprised if that information didn't come to the fore, presuming that the replacement barrel came from a "legitimate" source as opposed to a "back door" source. There were, as I recall, only a limited number of wholesale outlets for these guns (and dozens of retailers): who would not have recalled an order for a gun with a particular serial number? Can we posit a "back door" source that kept rifles or parts with a variety of serial numbers in the event a client needed a duplicate number for any reason? If so, how could that source be assured of a gun with a serial number the same as what they had in stock would be shipped to any particular location, much less customer? Or maybe they were expert at fabricating new parts with specific serial numbers, made to order for each customer?

Presuming the purchase of a duplicate-numbered barrel, someone has to know what the original number was. The record doesn't show, to my knowledge, that anybody ever had the gun in their possession and thus could have known what the serial number was. Oswald's possession is merely inferred, as I recall, by virtue of his having taken out the postal box rather than as a result of his actually signing for receipt.

I agree that it's certainly possible for Harry Holmes to have access to the serial number, how and why would he have come upon this information or have cause to even be curious about it? Presumably, the rifle was boxed for shipment rather than simply having a shipping label affixed to the stock, thus requiring the parcel to be opened prior to its delivery. As far as I know, Oswald wasn't the subject of a COINTELPRO (or whatever) mail-opening operation, and am fairly confident that Alex Hidell was not ... which wouldn't necessarily preclude a postal inspector (fairly high up on the federal investigative food chain, btw; see Wikipedia and the USPIS official site) from opening a package, but even so, why would he either record or pass along information about the serial number of a mail-order rifle?

Above all, why and to whom would he pass it along? Ditto this question in relation to ATF agent Frank Ellsworth: even presuming that obtaining this information was a part of either of their duties, to whom could they have given it who would obtain a "duplicate" 91/38 barrel with the same number with the specific purpose of getting Lee Oswald to go home early on a particular Thursday afternoon to pick up a package of "curtain rods" to bring to work the next morning for what good reason? How would the information go from either of these two federal law enforcement officials into the hands of anyone planning on assassinating POTUS and framing LHO so expertly?

(Ellsworth seems to be eliminated from this scenario, at least from the standpoint of the story - the accuracy of which I'm not certain - that he'd been at DPD when Oswald was arrested and, upon seeing him, thought that Oswald was another of Ellsworth's persons of interest, John Thomas Masen, whom Ellsworth had arrested earlier in the month in connection with a gun-running operation. This suggests that he had no idea who Oswald was. Holmes, on the other side of the coin, seems to have been inordinately interested in the proceedings against Oswald at DPD while assassination is not listed among the jurisdictions of USPIS.)

The hard parts are figuring how the serial number info was transmitted from those who had it to those who needed it to buy/manufacture a "duplicate" 91/38 barrel, and who convinced Oswald - and on what basis - to go to Irving off of his normal schedule and picking up a package. It's not "listening" well yet.