JFK: FROM PARKLAND TO BETHESDA out now!

[Sandy Larsen]

And there *is* more evidence that Oswald was framed as the buyer of the Carcano than there is that he actually bought it.

You should be thoroughly embarrassed at having written the above nonsense, Sandy.

Let's make a deal David.

I'll read and study your article if you demonstrate how it was possible for LHO to have paid for the rifle given that the money order he supposedly used to pay for it was never processed. The proof for this is on the money order itself... or rather, not on it. For the money order has no Federal Reserve Bank markings on its back. Or its front.

If that can't be explained, then what we have here is evidence Oswald was framed.

Sandy,

The C2766 rifle was positively mailed by Klein's to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle, and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing it into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.

You say, "So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle..."

How so? Postal money orders are, and have always been, processed by Federal Reserve Banks (FRBs). (Since the Federal Reserve System was created in 1913.) Only when a check or money order is cleared by a Federal Reserve Bank is the recipient's account credited. And, when cleared, the back-side of the check or money order is stamped by the FRB.

So Klein's definitely wasn't paid $21.45 for the rifle... at least not from the money order supposedly written by Oswald.

BTW, all national banks are required, by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, to be members of the Federal Reserve System. And they are required to use the FRB's check clearing system. Klein's bank, First National Bank, was indeed a member of the FRB and so used their check clearing system.

FRB Procedures for Processing Postal Money Orders

http://tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/v2/p4/c700.html

I'll give you a second chance to answer my question, David. How was it possible for LHO to have paid for the rifle, given that the money order he supposedly used to pay for it was never processed?

If you (or anybody else) can't answer this question, then the postal money order is evidence of LHO being framed as the buyer of the rifle.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Sandy Larsen

[David Von Pein]

Sandy,

You think Klein's would have shipped a rifle to PO Box 2915 (which they definitely did) WITHOUT being paid for the merchandise?

How silly.

Let me guess -- you think Waldman #7 is a fake document too. Right?


Related Links (re: bank stamps):

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17428&page=4#entry220887

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-947.html

Edited October 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David G. Healy]

Sandy,

You think Klein's would have shipped a rifle to PO Box 2915 (which they definitely did) WITHOUT being paid for the merchandise?

How silly.

Let me guess -- you think Waldman #7 is a fake document too. Right?

Related Links (re: bank stamps):

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17428&page=4#entry220887

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-947.html

my but your dancing again, David... Sandy's question is relevant, well?

[Sandy Larsen]

Let's make a deal David.

I'll read and study your article if you demonstrate how it was possible for LHO to have paid for the rifle given that the money order he supposedly used to pay for it was never processed. The proof for this is on the money order itself... or rather, not on it. For the money order has no Federal Reserve Bank markings on its back. Or its front.

If that can't be explained, then what we have here is evidence Oswald was framed.

Sandy,

The C2766 rifle was positively mailed by Klein's to Oswald's P.O. Box in Dallas. Waldman No. 7 proves that fact. And the money order was stamped by Klein's. So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle, and Klein's did the processing on their end by depositing it into their bank account. And that money order has Oswald's writing all over it.

You say, "So Klein's was definitely PAID the $21.45 for the rifle..."

How so? Postal money orders are, and have always been, processed by Federal Reserve Banks (FRBs). (Since the Federal Reserve System was created in 1913.) Only when a check or money order is cleared by a Federal Reserve Bank is the recipient's account credited. And, when cleared, the back-side of the check or money order is stamped by the FRB.

So Klein's definitely wasn't paid $21.45 for the rifle... at least not from the money order supposedly written by Oswald.

BTW, all national banks are required, by the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, to be members of the Federal Reserve System. And they are required to use the FRB's check clearing system. Klein's bank, First National Bank, was indeed a member of the FRB and so used their check clearing system.

FRB Procedures for Processing Postal Money Orders

http://tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/v2/p4/c700.html

I'll give you a second chance to answer my question, David. How was it possible for LHO to have paid for the rifle, given that the money order he supposedly used to pay for it was never processed?

If you (or anybody else) can't answer this question, then the postal money order is evidence of LHO being framed as the buyer of the rifle.

Sandy,

You think Klein's would have shipped a rifle to PO Box 2915 (which they definitely did) WITHOUT being paid for the merchandise?

How silly.

Let me guess -- you think Waldman #7 is a fake document too. Right?

Related Links (re: bank stamps):

educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17428&page=4#entry220887

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-947.html

Okay David, so you concede that LHO did not pay for the Carcano with the money order that was used as evidence against him. The mere existence of that money order is strong evidence the LHO was framed as the purchaser of that rifle. Because it is a necessary element of the WC narrative and was presented as evidence, yet we can plainly see that it was never even used to pay for the rifle. It was for show only.... it had no real substance.

[David Von Pein]

Okay David, so you concede that LHO did not pay for the Carcano with the money order that was used as evidence against him.

Huh? When did I ever say that? I never said any such thing. Of course LHO paid for the Carcano with the money order in evidence (CE788). It's got his writing all over it.

How did Oswald's handwriting get on this M.O. if LHO never had it in his possession?....

Edited October 27, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

From "Harvey and Lee." by John Armstrong

"All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI. A close look at the details surrounding the "finding" of the money order the day after the assassination strongly suggests that this is what happened."

Any comments, Dave?

Edited October 27, 2015 by Ray Mitcham

[Sandy Larsen]

Okay David, so you concede that LHO did not pay for the Carcano with the money order that was used as evidence against him.

Huh? When did I ever say that? I never said any such thing. Of course LHO paid for the Carcano with the money order in evidence (CE788). It's got his writing all over it.

How did Oswald's handwriting get on this M.O. if LHO never had it in his possession?....

You conceded when you didn't answer my question, even after I had posted it a second time.

In both your responses you completely ignored the fact that the money order had not been processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. As though that isn't an important point.

So I won the debate by default. That's what happens when one doesn't "show up" for a debate.

As for how LHO's handwriting got "all over" the money order, I would suggest the same way my dad's handwriting got all over the excuse notes I wrote to my home-room teacher explaining why I had been absent from school. Forging someone's handwriting isn't necessarily a difficult feat, and isn't an unheard of thing. Given that the money order is evidence that someone was attempting to frame Oswald, as I have demonstrated, it follows that the source of the handwriting be considered suspect as well.

[David Von Pein]

You conceded when you didn't answer my question, even after I had posted it a second time.

In both your responses you completely ignored the fact that the money order had not been processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. As though that isn't an important point.

So I won the debate by default. That's what happens when one doesn't "show up" for a debate.

As for how LHO's handwriting got "all over" the money order, I would suggest the same way my dad's handwriting got all over the excuse notes I wrote to my home-room teacher explaining why I had been absent from school. Forging someone's handwriting isn't necessarily a difficult feat, and isn't an unheard of thing. Given that the money order is evidence that someone was attempting to frame Oswald, as I have demonstrated, it follows that the source of the handwriting be considered suspect as well.

Naturally. Nothing new or surprising there. Everything is "suspect" to a conspiracy theorist.

So, with respect to the evidence and the testimony associated with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle purchase, the following things would have to be true, according to many CTers....

...William Waldman of Klein's was a big fat [L-word].

...Oswald's writing was forged on the money order.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the American Rifleman order form for the rifle.

...Oswald's writing was forged on the envelope that housed the M.O. and the order form.

...Waldman Exhibit No. 7 is a complete forgery.

...The FBI agents who helped search the Klein's files on late November 22 and early November 23 must have been told to lie their asses off if they were ever to be asked this question: Did you help search the Klein's records in Chicago and were you present when the microfilmed records were found in those files which included an order form clipped from a magazine which had the name "A. Hidell" on it, plus the internal Klein's order blank (Waldman #7), which verified that a rifle bearing the serial number "C2766" was shipped by Klein's to "A. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas, on March 20, 1963? .... Because, according to many conspiracy theorists, those FBI agents actually witnessed the retrieval of no such "Hidell" microfilmed records in the Klein's files at all.

...The whole $21.45 money order, in every respect, is a fraudulent document (and not just Oswald's allegedly forged handwriting) --- e.g., the "GPO; Mar. 12" and "$21.45" markings that are stamped on the front of the money order. And the Klein's "Pay to the order" stamp on the back is fake too (i.e., somebody stole Klein's rubber stamp [or created a perfect duplicate] and stamped the phony money order in order to fool everybody into thinking Klein's really did deposit the M.O. into its First National Bank account --- I'd love to see some proof to show that this hunk of fakery ever happened too; but, as always, no CTer on Earth can possibly prove that the "PAY TO THE ORDER" stamp on CE788 is a fraudulent Klein's endorsement).

See how silly this starts to get really fast when you have to pretend that Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered Rifle C2766 from Klein's Sporting Goods? Embarrassing, isn't it, Sandy? Yes, it is indeed.

Regarding the discovery of the original money order that was found in Virginia, hundreds of miles from the offices of Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, there are these excerpts from Vincent Bugliosi's book:

"[9:00 AM CST, 11/23/63] Although the FBI already has a microfilmed copy of the money order used to purchase the Carcano rifle, in preparing for trial prosecutors always want the original document. After depositing the money order into its bank account, Klein's, of course, no longer had the original money order.

[...]

[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search.

Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald.*

If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination."

-- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 206 and 237 of "Reclaiming History" ©2007

* Sources -- CE1799 @ 23 H 419 and Warren Commission Testimony of Alwyn Cole @ 4 H 373

Edited October 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it. But I'd be willing to bet the farm that there IS a reasonable and non-conspiratorial answer to explain the lack of markings on the back of that document without resorting to the conclusion that the money order was manufactured and faked by a group of conspirators in a complicated and intricate effort to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for John F. Kennedy's murder.

And I know that conspiracy theorists who think Oswald never ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in early 1963 have a heck of a lot MORE evidence to explain away than I do -- such as all this stuff.

Edited October 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

You conceded when you didn't answer my question, even after I had posted it a second time.

In both your responses you completely ignored the fact that the money order had not been processed by a Federal Reserve Bank. As though that isn't an important point.

So I won the debate by default. That's what happens when one doesn't "show up" for a debate.

As for how LHO's handwriting got "all over" the money order, I would suggest the same way my dad's handwriting got all over the excuse notes I wrote to my home-room teacher explaining why I had been absent from school. Forging someone's handwriting isn't necessarily a difficult feat, and isn't an unheard of thing. Given that the money order is evidence that someone was attempting to frame Oswald, as I have demonstrated, it follows that the source of the handwriting be considered suspect as well.

Naturally. Nothing new or surprising there. Everything is "suspect" to a conspiracy theorist.

o

o

o

No David, not everything is suspect. Only those things that defy logic. Especially in cases where the official story is riddled with falsehoods, half-truth's, and contradictions.

I really don't have the time to debate this issue with you. My only reason for posting that one question was to make the point that there is indeed compelling evidence that Oswald was framed. And that that is an example of the legitimate reasons CT researchers question parts ofthe official story. They don't do so merely because "everything is suspect to a conspiracy theorist," as you put it.

(For the record, I do know that there are plenty of CTers who aren't all that bright or who lack common sense, who do see conspiracy in "everything." But I haven't seen any of those folks here on this forum.)

[Sandy Larsen]

As for the lack of any bank stamps appearing on the back of Oswald's postal money order, I don't have a definitive answer to explain it.

Thanks for acknowledging that as a problem. I think you would get a lot more respect from the folks here if you would just admit when the official story has a problem rather than ignoring it and changing the subject.

[Ray Mitcham]

From "Harvey and Lee." by John Armstrong

"All US Postal Money orders have unique serial numbers. In the fall of 1962, Oswald purchased numerous money orders from the same downtown post office and mailed them to Washington, DC in order to repay a loan from the government for his travel expenses incurred when he returned to the USA from Russia. These money orders were purchased in numerical sequence beginning in November, 1962. These serial numbers show that some 1200 money orders per week were purchased at the downtown post office in Dallas. At this rate we see that Oswald's alleged purchase of a money order on March 12, 1963 should have been numbered 2,202,011,935. But the serial number of the money order published in the Warren Volumes was more than 118,000 numbers higher. At the rate of 1200 money order per week, this money order should have been purchased in late 1964 or early 1965. In other words, this money order could easily have been pulled from a stack of fresh, unsold money orders by a postal official in Dallas, sometime after the assassination, and then given to the FBI. A close look at the details surrounding the "finding" of the money order the day after the assassination strongly suggests that this is what happened."

Any comments, Dave?

Bump.

[David Von Pein]

"[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search. Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination." -- Vincent Bugliosi

[Ray Mitcham]

"[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search. Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination." -- Vincent Bugliosi

And you believe Bugliosi's crap? Really?

Edited October 28, 2015 by Ray Mitcham

[Sandy Larsen]

"[7:00 PM CST, 11/23/63] The IBM computers at the U.S. Postal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, have been humming for nearly seven hours now...searching for the original money order used to purchase the assassination weapon. There's no telling how many man-hours it might take to do a manual search. Suddenly, a match is found, and the money order is located. The center rushes the original money order by special courier to the chief of the Secret Service in Washington. A handwriting analysis by a questioned-documents expert for the Department of the Treasury shows that the handwriting on the money order is that of Lee Harvey Oswald. If there is one thing that is now unquestionably certain, it is that Lee Harvey Oswald ordered and paid for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination." -- Vincent Bugliosi

I read the source for this, CE 1799. Just a report written by some anonymous person. Not exactly impressive evidence when compared to a missing Federal Reserve Bank stamp.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/pdf/WH23_CE_1799.pdf

I don't know where Bugs got the 7 hour computers-humming information.