David Josephs

It seems to me that this person may have a watch/bracelet on his right wrist (suggesting a left-handed person) while Oswald wore his on the left.... So close yet just far enough not to know...

Based on what Jon?

A couple of images related to the blood on the trunk comments... below the rant.... ------------------- KC has been a constant source of quality information and discussion here for all the years I've been reading and posting here which I think started in 2001 or so. The attacking stance that a few here take - as opposed to offering support and research has indeed dragged this place down. Prior to John closing up shop a little while back due to the ongoing efforts of a few whose only purpose was to disrupt and aggravate - it was virtually impossible to carry on a discussion. It closed, and reopened with many of the offenders no longer allowed to post... As one searches within the Forum and finds their older posts the word BANNED appears under their names... There remain a few here who believe it is their RIGHT and PURPOSE to be "Discussion Nazis" when an idea or research is offered that they disagree with or interfere with their selling of books with ideas that are counter to what is offered. And then, when shown their rebuttals are hollow, without evidence beyond opinion, they get belligerent, abusive and oppressive, all in the THEIR name of saving us from the BS that may be posted. Is it possible for the Moderators here to tell attack tactics from discussion of Evidence and theory? Is it possible for the moderators here to stop people in their tracks when all that is offered is junk science and uncorroborated opinion as opposed to sourced and referenced PROOF? No one here is so lost that we cannot tell BS from theory developed after extensive research. Should a member be allowed to push the GREER DID IT scenario at this point without Moderation? I am and will remain at the center of the H&L theories and the mountains of real evidence which supports it... When evidence is offered to refute any one area - fine... let's talk about why Palmer himself writes to tell us his detractors are wrong, that he was there and others were not. If they coudl PROVE he was wrong they would... but they can't. Yet that simple fact does not stop the attacks. But until completely disproven, as the GREER DID IT "theory" easily is, ad hominem attacks and opinions without basis in ANY fact need to be addressed by the moderators While some of these detractors offer a body of work which is exemplary, one is lost for why this great work ethic is set aside and in its place we get repetitious opinion designed only to enrage and attack... Years and years ago a set of rules was offered 1. Address the Subject not the person 2. Provide Evidence to back the rebuttal 3. Provide the SOURCES of said evidence when possible and let people see and decide for themselves. We are all on the same side - yet to those outside we will forever appear as a bunch of Conspiracy Nuts because we choose to sacrifice those who offer evidence laden theories we may disagree with to forward our own agendas. This all sounds like nothing but NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING - which we hate to see politicians do... How about putting forth what you believe and show why you believe it with reference? Do we actually believe that readers hear come here to be "convinced" or rather to be exposed to other ways to see and perceive the events ?? Posts that include, "IN MY OPINION" are fine for speculative discussion - they are not put forth so certain yahoos who feel it their right and job as "discussion nazis" can find the nearest hammer and pound away at their perceived stupidity of the OPINION or theory developed - if the idea or theory is so wrong - it will be obvious. I address JVB with FACTS about how her Evidence is not authentic or says the opposite of what is offered as a conclusion. There are many that day who claim the limo was COVERED IN BLOOD, hood, trunk, handrails, everywhere... FBI and SS men who make this claim. Blood stained metal does not SHINE,it smears and to anyone who claims the limo was "CLEANED" at Parkland need only look at the FBI color versions of CE352 yes, a bucket was seen but no cleaning was done... the top was put on. One POSSIBILITY is that the bucket was used to put pieces and parts of JFK - Evidence that needed to be "evaluated"... Is there any evidence to show someone actually WASHING THE LIMO or is it speculation based on a bucket? A tough hide and turning the other cheek should NOT be a requirement to discuss the case among peers. We're a few hundred people trying to make sense of this... can we stop acting like the curator of that Museum where lies are thrown into the faces of any and all visitors and nonsense is offered up as FACT? Or, whatever... (let the games begin...) Peace DJ

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Incriminating behavior? Assume all you know is Oswald's movements as told by the wcr. Even after leaving the rifle, the shells, he still casually leaves. Walks away to catch a bus back West. The timing does not work for Tippit. He is not 5'10, 165, in a white jacket. The man changes clothes yet does not change his look And can now go anywhere. This man who we know had not killed a soul has just killed the pres and a cop and is about as casual as they. Almost an air of protected. When he is finally charged, a look, a what? And nothing incriminating to the FBI, CIA or anyone is offered. I simply fail to see how this man was involved... Or was the greatest actor we've known. A VERY GOOD speculation....Brian... I appreciate your thinking. But shots from the front need to be changed. Hunt and gang would have little if any pull at Bethesda, where the cover up is created and reality disappears forever... Good post and one well worth more thought.

Tommy's confused and Parker is frothing... Same Sh!t different Day Rock on Cliff... Rock on

[National Security Action Memorandums (NSAM)] This is what we wound up with... while what JFK wanted is below... it is legend that this was changed PRIOR to the assassination by Bundy. http://jfklancer.com/NSAM273.html some great work from Greg Burnham DJ THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON November 26, 1963 NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 273 TO: The Secretary of State The Secretary of Defense The Director of Central Intelligence The Administrator, AID The Director, USIA The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned: 1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all U. S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose. 2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963. 3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves width this objective in view. 4. The President expects that all senior officers of the Government will move energetically to insure the full unity of support for established U.S. policy in South Vietnam. Both in Washington and in the field, it is essential that the Government be unified. It is of particular importance that express or implied criticism of officers of other branches be scrupulously avoided in all contacts with the Vietnamese Government and with the press. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting, of November 20. The offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned are indicated in each case. 5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only the control of hamlets but the productivity of this area, especially where the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces. (Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.) 6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import, distribution, and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta. (Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. ) 7. Planning should include different levels of possible increased activity, and in each instance there should be estimates of such factors as: A. Resulting damage to North Vietnam; B. The plausibility of denial; C. Possible North Vietnamese retaliation; D. Other international reaction. Plans should be submitted promptly for approval by higher authority. (Action: State, DOD, and CIA. ) 8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed and submitted for approval by higher authority for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enterprise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should include a redefined method of political guidance for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos. (Action: State, DOD, and CIA.) 9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular a plan should be developed using all available evidence and methods of persuasion for showing the Cambodians that the recent charges against us are groundless. (Action: State.) 10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible. (Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.) s/ McGeorge Bundy McGeorge Bundy cc: Mr. Bundy Mr. Forrestal Mr. Johnson NSC Files (page 3 of 3 pages) [DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET Auth: EO 11652 Date: 6-8-76 By: Jeanne W. Davis NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL ] 11/21/63 DRAFT (and what was removed or changed) TOP SECRET NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263 The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned: 1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all decisions and U. S. actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose. 2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963. 3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves with this objective in view. 4. It is of the highest importance that the United States Government avoid either the appearance or the reality of public recrimination from one part of it against another, and the President expects that all senior officers of the Government will take energetic steps to insure that they and their subordinates go out of their way to maintain and to defend the unity of the United States Government both here and in the field. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting of November 20. The office or offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned is indicated in each case. 5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only our control of land but the productivity of this area wherever the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces. (Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.) 6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import distribution and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta. (Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. ) 7. With respect to action against North Vietnam, there should be a detailed plan for the development of additional Government of Vietnam resources, especially for sea-going activity, and such planning should indicate the time and investment necessary to achieve a wholly new level of effectiveness in this field of action. (Action: DOD, and CIA. ) 8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enter- prise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should provide an alternative method of political liaison for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos. (Action: State, DOD, and CIA.) 9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular, measures should be undertaken to satisfy ourselves completely that recent charges from Cambodia are groundless, and we should put ourselves in a position to offer to the Cambodian a full opportunity to satisfy themselves on this same point. (Action: State.) 10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible. (Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.) McGeorge Bundy TOP SECRET [DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET Auth: EO 12356, Sec. 3.4 Date: 1/21/91 By: SKF, NARA

Jon, One of the more amazing things about the VietNam "war" is how much the average person does not know related to why, who, the Hamlet program and the complete waste of money and lives helicopters wound up costing the US. Not sure what your feelings are about Prouty but he was in a most critical role as liaison between the Military and CIA operational support... JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy by Fletcher Prouty may be one of the most important books you'll ever read about how "eff'd up" the entire SE Asia situation was and why that silly little island thing 90 miles off Florida was dropped the same week JFK was assassinated. A comparison of the NSAMs before and after Bundy rewrites it between what JFK was to sign and what LBJ signed is also a large key to why he was eliminated. DJ

That's fine. You're not sorry and you'll continue to disappoint.

Roger, if you do a Google search their recollections can be found. I even think Dellarosa did a video describing it. I printed/saved the written description as posted on this forum if memory serves. One thing struck me was the UP movement of JFK described. Made me think of the sewer drain. I always felt the zooming in of the Z film at that point might have hidden the reflection of the shot on the side of the limo. The angle seems right. DJ

I was being rhetorical Greg. Maybe you can do your thing, others will do theirs and we can SUPPORT each other's efforts rather than work to tear them down. Just a thought. I don't feel like spending any more of my time arguing the unproveable with anyone. so, Any SIS related info? The timing and locations are right And most aren't even aware of the SIS or what they did. Hoover was entrenched in the Americas years before the OSS/CIA comes along. Thx.

I just don't get why you, Greg, being right about what you're saying MUST mean everyone else is wrong. Context is the only thing we have to fully appreciate what took place. Greg, I've done research into the FBI's SIS... is there anything you can share related to that initial western hemisphere intelligence agency and the activities you've described?

Again, thanks for the kind words... only took me 20 years to get here. (btw - the Model was offered by Charles Drago and Michael Evica - I am simply using it as a context and vocabulary for ease of discussion) To Me Bundy is both Sponsor connected and Facilitator functional as opposed to say LBJ who would never be allowed into the SPONSOR circles. Same with Hoover as you mention. But the Sponsors are not so follish as to let nothing but Facilitators run the show. Harriman, McCloy, Acheson, Lovett, Bohlen - 5 of the 6 "Wise Men" (a book worth getting btw) and Bundy can be seen as SPONSOR-Facilitators (Kennan being the 6th and never on the inside) Yet the real talent of the SPONSOR is to be invisible. The Rock's are always first on the list along with the Rothschilds, the Morgan's, DuPont and we haven't even gotten out of the US yet. Rockefeller and the Uber-wealthy families of the world are of course the SPONSORS. I believe the number is something like 250,000 people own 90% of the world's wealth. Most you will never have heard of and never will. The Koch's are among some of today's most visible sponsor-demons. Yet again... the everyday person would not know these SPONSORS by name - and purposefully so. You've heard of the State Street Corp? I hadn't. It controls a $7 TRILLION Trust - and surprise surprise it is based out of Boston Mass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Street_Corporation Jay Hooley Pres, CEO is not on the Forbes 100... but I would venture to say that he has SOME leverage in the world. https://www.aba.com/Tools/Research/Documents/Top25InstitutionsbyTrustAssets.pdf is a list of Trusts overseeing $17 TRILLION in Assets with the Bank of NY-MELLON 2nd on the list A detour here to Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr... Hamilton founded the BANK OF NY, Burr the BANK OF THE MANHATTAN CO which becomes CHASE/JP Morgan Chase both fought to become THE NATIONAL BANK OF THE US while trying to convince us that this was what WASHINGTON wanted... which is as far from the truth as possible. Jefferson and Washington knew the evils of the Bank of England and the control Rothschild had over it and all the other National banks he had his sons create all over the world Hamilton and Burr were part of the start of the US SPONSORS we refer to here in this discussion. Morgan was understood and operated as an agent of Rothschild. ============================================== Are you ready to be blown away Jon? It was this passage about BELL in Prouty's book that got me started with Bankers and Lawyers. He doesn't say who they are but mentions TEXTRON once I think. I wanted to know more since the SPONSOR model made sense to me but no one I had read pointed a finger at a specific SPONSOR and made a JFK connection... In Prouty's book on JFK and Vietnam this comes up only a couple of times and is not followed up. Prouty says the decision to buy BELL HELICOPTER began with a Boston Bank VP asking the CIA's Charles Cabell (brother of the mayor of Dallas) whether it would be a good idea given the political outlook for war and the potential use of helicopters to fight said wars. Charles Pearre Cabell (October 11, 1903 – May 25, 1971) was an United States Air Force General and Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Earle Cabell (October 27, 1906 – September 24, 1975), was a Texas politician who served as mayor of Dallas, Texas. Cabell was mayor at the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy and was later a member of the U.S. House of Representatives The CIA ultimately manueved the resupply of Helicopters in the SE Asia region which required the restocking of helicopters waiting to go to Viet Nam. (I suggest you read the book) The decision to use helicopters was pisspoor given the war to be fought and the manpower needed to maintain helicopter battalions... but no matter BELL HELICOPTERS were chosen to fight the Vietnam War and the rest is history. More people died related to helicopters and their malfunctions than is ever realized... When you look into the history of TEXTRON, what they did to the Textile industry of the US and why and with WHO's backing you start to get into the world of the SPONSOR which includes SUN LIFE of Montreal, the largest of Insurance and Assurance companies. TEXTRON was the world's first conglomerate put together with Rothschild Bank of England money to desimate the US Textile industry in favor of English textile imports... Textron (NYSE: TXT) is an American industrial conglomerate. Textron includes Bell Helicopter, Cessna Aircraft, and other components. It was founded by Royal Little in 1923 as the Special Yarns Company, and is now headquartered in Providence, Rhode Island. http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1978/eirv05n04-19780131/eirv05n04-19780131_028-gw_miller_and_textron_a_study_in.pdf (I do not agree with some of his JFK attacks but the info on TEXTRON's history, Arthur Little, Miller and the law firms and Bankers is there as a great launching point). The high-technology branch of Textron operations began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American Research and Development Corporation. a three million dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative. Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance Company and director of First National of Boston. the bank whose extraordinary largess built Textron. Also founding ARD was Oscar W. Haussmann. a top corporate lawyer and chairman of the New England Industrial Research Foundation and the Boston Municipal Research Bureau. and Lessing J. Rosenwalt of Sears Roebuck and Kuhn Loeb. . Control is exercised by Sun Life of Canada through its chairman. Alistair M. Campbell who sits on the ARD board. and sat on Textron's before their formal merger in 1972. In 1956 (G. William) Miller joined Textron as a vice president. As the October 1971 Fortune magazine described it. "Miller came to Textron in 1956 from the prestigious Wall Street firm of Cravath. Swaine and Moore after Royal Little was impressed with his work in a raucous proxy fight with American Woolen." When Kennedy campaigned for the presidency in 1960, he declared there was an enormous "missile gap" between the U. S. and the Soviet Union. It was a lie, which greatly impaired U.S.-USSR relations and recalled the Cold War days. Meanwhile at Harvard, British agent Henry Kissinger published, under the direction of the Council on Foreign Affairs (headed by John McCloy) his "Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy." This book and the Research and Development Corporation (Rand) limited nuclear war thesis became the cornerstone of the Kennedy reorganization of the Pentagon. The essential shift in government contracts to gimmickry rather than fundamental technological breakthroughs meant that American development was being sabotaged. Rand madman Robert Strange McNamara became Secretary of Defense while Cravath Swain and Moore partner, Roswell Gilpatrick became the number two man in Defense. This opened a whole new phase in Textron development. Textron bought Bell Helicopter in July of 1960, four months before the election. Bell's sales were down an even hundred million in 1959 from nearly double that in 1953. Textron bought the company for what was considered one of the worst deals of the year - $32 million or exactly the company's book value. Yet Rupert C. Thompson, Jr. ; " then Textron Chairman (Miller was President) , boasted, "We knew we had our objective - 25 percent pre-tax profit on our investment - from day one." That was a pretty cocky statement by the head of a company that had $98 million in long-term debt, large amounts of warrants and convertible preferred stock outstanding, and was running out of tax credits. Since 1953 the company had not paid a penny in tax, having run up a tax credit as high as $45 million in 1956. Textron faced full tax liability by 1963. , In fact the company was heading for bankruptcy. Yet somehow, the Prudential Life Insurance Company of Newark, a Morgan influenced firm, provided a $25 million unsecured note to Textron, with a six-year grace period on repayments. A most un-insurance companylike type of loan. With the loan, Textron bought Bell and remarkably, helicopter orders zoomed up 50 percent between 1961 and 1962. Bell's UH-IB and UH-IB Iroquois were heavily ordered for JFK's Vietnam War (DJ: JFK's war?? not so much). With this kick, Textron began another round of acquisitions, now heavily defense or machine-tool oriented.

Greatly appreciated - maybe I got a book in me yet... DJ PS.. To be honest, I've got a nice handful of gigs source material for my "Bankers & Lawyers: The History of Control and Conspiracy" that I hope to get to writing one day. First my reference source on the Mexico City example of FBI evidence creation and then a series of articles on how the Evidence IS the Conspiracy looking at a dozen or so aspects of the case which illustrate the point. If I could only quit my Day Job...

Well Jon... that be the $64K Q.... A while back I was exposed to the Drago-Evica Model of SPONSORS-FACILITATORS-MECHANICS. The nitty gritty details of which as offered by the authors are up for discussion in my opinion yet the model is one that makes discussion and context possible. In a nutshell, the Sponsors where in the position to make that kind of decision and insure their own insulation from guilt or accusation The Facilitators are the ones with the skills and resources to produce the plan which Mechanics carried out. If one asks a Mechanic why... it all depends on who the Mechanic represents: Cubans-for breaking his word and letting thousands die; Birch Society-for his liberalism; CIA/Military-for his treason Why the Mechanic thinks he was killed is really of no matter in the grand scheme of things as long as they do their jobs. Their bosses, the Facilitator level, grants them life, death, wealth, asylum, etc... Anything to insure the job gets done. The FACILITATORS are directly beholden to the Sponsors for it was the Sponsor level that placed them where they are. Facilitators are the part of the Military Industrial Congressional Complex that we are aware of, that make the news and upon which the stories and novels are based. Facilitators are more interested in Continuity of Government with them in control. Period. They are the ones fighting the nasty -ism's that change over time. Terrorism being the flavor of this century. Ask them and the answer is that JFK was making it impossible to do what they needed to insure "Our way of life prevails". The SPONSOR. Oh, the Sponsor. This to me is the level of people who supercede nations and governments. Their one and only purpose is to insure their survival and complete ownership of the game, the rules and the outcomes. The Board of Haliburton does not care about the ideology of those who sign the contract. IBM's board did not care what the Nazis were doing with their machines as long as they kept buying punch cards. When Nixon lost, the Sponsors lost one of their key Facilitators. Prescott Bush hand picked the man as a facilitator for Brown-Harriman et al. 8 years of build-up and what finally happened in 1963, 65 & 68 might have happened years earlier. During this time from 1945 to 1960 the reason for Ike's warning was not only born but grew to the monster it was - Ike was Right. Politics, nations and governments are tools of the Sponsor class. Without being flippant - Bankers and Lawyers Jon. Control of the money supply, control of the laws of the land. Do you honestly think it matters to Big Business who is elected? At the Facilitator level yes... not for Sponsors. Money and Power is to be made with the ebb and flow of such trival, human, everyday things. I truly believe that the Sponsor level gave serious thought how to wield their Money and Power now that JFK was elected. It may not be as easy as with Nixon but the USA, the president was not the make or break of the Sponsor, and never would be. Until JFK started to take the side of the public need. JFK, like so many before him, used all at his disposal to take the election from Nixon, maybe even fraudulently. The Sponsor thinks, okay, this man has the greed and desire to do what it takes, maybe we can be okay with him.... But then, little by little and one by one JFK attacks all that the Sponsor holds dear as to the causality of their wealth and power. JFK wanting Peace does not mean they'd sell less food, or fewer TV's - in the short term. But in the Long Term people who do not live in a constant state of fear, a self-realized understanding of true uselessness to fight the system realize they can join together and question WHY. Why do THEY have and we don't? They start to believe they can DO something about it. Ms. Antoinette found out the hard way just to name one. And is why we see small examples of this being squashed all the time - if not squashed then a facade is created, "democracy" or some other "better way" is offered until the attentions of the world focus elsewhere. Then it's back to SOP. When JFK starts in on the FED, on the JCS, on the CIA. On reversing Foreign policy, on FAIRNESS for all people over everything else - he was doomed in the eyes of the Sponsor. The Facilitators role is to insure their Continuity. The Sponsor grants this continuity via laws, loans and protection. Why, in my opinion, was JFK killed? He was not one of them, was not ever going to be and in the end would be perceived as their worst enemy. He had won the hearts and minds of the PEOPLE the Sponsors wanted to maintain control over and would most definitley lead the revolutionary charge (this too is why Bobby was killed). By 1960 their power, exercised at the Facilitator level, had risen to heights hardly ever seen in the US whereas in the rest of the world, the understanding of these simple principles are thousands of years old. The results of these principles are thousands of years old. Americans are so ethnocentric as to believe that political assassination does not visit them... and for good reason. The Sponsors have created it that way via their Facilitators in Media. By 1960 I truly believe the MICC leaders felt untouchable like no group of people in human history. This is not paranoia by any means. Just the way of Humans throughout history. Oh we have our moments but on a whole we have a pretty xxxxty track record these last 5000 years. FDR was fronting for the Bankers and Lawyers Ike was playing Golf while Nixon turned the Executive Branch into a cesspool NIXON as Pres in 1960 may have ushered in an era of greater growth and wealth than the 50's were while widening the gap between Rich and poor which we see today so plainly. I think it would have also ushered in an era of greater secrecy, greater control, more FBI anti-youth anti-minority, etc.... But JFK took it. We have not had an independent, thinking, humanity-first president since... All us people running around thinking it was Israel or Egypt or Vietnam or the Treasury or South Africa or Human rights are, in my little opinion, thinking within the world we see and understand, not the world of the SPONSOR. The enduring world of wealth, power, influence and unaccountability... A world that if you're not one of US - you simply have no clue. And if you somehow get to be one of us, you're not about to let anyone in on the secret. My $.02 Jon. All we have are the day to day choices of right from wrong and whether we offer love in our hearts when making these decisions. When and if we as a species decide to rise above our evolutionary limits, maybe a new day will dawn. Our greatest and worst attribute - hope. Keeps us going yet overshadows an intelligent look at our history and the inevitable cause and effect we see repeated ad nauseum. Peace DJ (Excerpts from American University) I have, therefore, chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived--yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace. What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time. --- Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament--and that it will be useless until the leaders of the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude--as individuals and as a Nation--for our attitude is as essential as theirs. And every graduate of this school, every thoughtful citizen who despairs of war and wishes to bring peace, should begin by looking inward--by examining his own attitude toward the possibilities of peace, toward the Soviet Union, toward the course of the cold war and toward freedom and peace here at home --- The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough--more than enough--of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on--not toward a strategy of annihilation but toward a strategy of peace.

Great point KC... I always wondered why none of the images of the limo show this and then this: I've never seen an image that corroborates this. Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness? Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

it's not. Greg's 100% correct. U-2 flights were ordered not to happen by Ike yet Dulles et al was not going to allow Ike's desire for a Peace conference with Russia to define the years to come. The real assumption was that Nixon would be POTUS and the plans to confront and provoke Russia would be ongoing and supported by the man in the big chair. JFK winning screwed all that up and enraged the MICC. American University sealed the deal. Where would we be as a nation if we did not have a THREAT with which to contend .. Nazi's... Communists... Terrorists... Greg has a better handle on this - didn't he just run out of gas or have mechanical failure? https://politicalassassinations.wordpress.com/2010/05/05/cia-documents-show-us-never-believed-gary-powers-was-shot-down/ U-2 pilot Gary Powers, a few weeks before his suspicious death in a helicopter crash in LA, revealed that he did not believe his plane was shot down by the Soviets and indicated sabotage on the part of the CIA instead, in order to undermine the possibility of detente between Eisenhower and Kruschev. It is not a “conspiracy theory” that Lee Harvey Oswald, one of nine Office of Naval Intelligence fake defectors who went to the USSR in the same month, told ONI’s Richard Snyder at the American Embassy in Moscow that he was going to reveal the U-2 secrets to the Soviets. Oswald had been stationed, as a Marine, at every base the U-2 operated from, including Atsugi, Japan and tracked it by radar. He had a Crypto clearance. Those things are in the historical record. It is not likely that he gave up any such information or would have been allowed to. Snyder kept Oswald’s proffered passport and did not act on his renunciation of US citizenship. Snyder returned the passport to Oswald on his way out of Russia with his new bride Marina, transportation paid by the State Department. Nice treatment for a defector who gave secrets to the Soviets. Marina even got Oswald’s story confused with another ONI defector, Robert Webster, when she testified to the Warren Commission about how her husband got to the Soviet Union and where he lived in Moscow. However if sabotage of the detente was in the planning, it would have been useful to use the Oswald deception to explain how the Soviets could track and shoot down the U-2. This article suggests that Powers himself might have been a false defector as well. What is clear is that Powers did not buy the official story. John Judge The London Times May 1, 2010

Jon... (please excuse the soapbox rant, warranted as it may be in response to your question) A little while back, after years of "JFK Assassination all the time every time" I took a step back and made some realizations akin to Galileo and the earth NOT being the center of the universe... The JFK Assassination is not at the center of historical conspiracy and greed but one of the many celestial bodies which revolves around a core of mankind who has always taken advantage of others for their own purposes. Taking the most negative aspects of the Tragedy of the Commons to covertly and overtly gain control of the resources of humanity and the planet it lives upon. Ownership & property rights all hearken back to Bankers and Lawyers writing the rules and owning the assets. History is the story of any one set of these people doing everything they can to take and keep as much as possible You can read Plato describing the problems with the ruling elite thousands of years ago we can learn what "sovereignty" means and how it too is used to wage and justify war or the illusion of defense against it. Those that rule this little planet were doing so long before John and will be doing so long after unless mankind as a whole changes, evolves. Good luck with that. JFK threatened the very fabric of the wool covering the eyes of the sheep who provided the raw materials to build the cover in the first place... To believe that any of this "ends" or is "put to bed" is to deny history and how man works. Labels like "countries" "nations" "alliances" are in reality part of the facade... like energy, WEALTH/POWER simply changes form and moves from one area of physical reality to another The names change but the ideology and process remains to be used over and over The sheep do not know they are being led to the slaughter - it would upset them too much and make it impossible to control them. Dr. King, JFK and a handful of others rose above and made the sheep look up from their grazing and get MAD... to want more than the same old BS Is it a coincidence that the communications explosion of TV and the telling of these horrors makes it appear as if none of this stuff ever happened before 1963? The assassination in my opinion was but a very small point in a huge spiderweb of conspiracy and control which includes and uses any and all resources within its grasp - and that grasp is virtually limitless. Sadly, it is this part of humanity that has taken control and built up wall after wall to insure it retains this control. The assassination was, again in my opinion, a public flexing of these muscles and shows how these walls are impossible to topple no matter what the sheep see/know or can prove they saw/knew. It was never about going forward but about disenfranchising the individual to accept that the human cause is hopeless, and to move on.. the response?... "you want fries with that while we watch Honey boo-boo?" =============== When Dr. Crenshaw finally broke his silence in 1992, he wrote: “I believe there was a common denominator in our silence – a fearful perception that to come forward with what we believed to be the medical truth would be asking for trouble. Although we never admitted it to one another, we realized that the inertia of the established story was so powerful, so thoroughly presented, so adamantly accepted, that it would bury anyone who stood in its path… I was afraid of the men in suits as I was afraid of the men who had assassinated the President… I reasoned that anyone who would go so far as to eliminate the President of the United States would surely not hesitate to kill a doctor.” =============== The American people, since World War II, or World War I, or the Spanish American War -- take your choice -- have witnessed the tip of many criminal icebergs. The official investigations of the criminal icebergs almost always stopped at the waterline. The other 90 percent of the criminal icebergs were never hauled onto the beach for complete examination, prosecution and correction. The criminal cases of 1980 to the present are in perfect harmony with this honored tradition. This is, of course, why Americans are the most profoundly ignorant people on planet earth. The illusion of knowledge is far worse than knowing you don't know. ------------------ "The American system is the most ingenious system of control in world history. With a country so rich in natural resources, talent, and labor power the system can afford to distribute just enough to just enough people to limit discontent to a troublesome minority. It is a country so powerful, so big, so pleasing to so many of its citizens that it can afford to give freedom of dissent to the small number who are not pleased. How wise to turn the fear and anger of the majority toward a class of criminals bred - by economic inequity - faster than they can be put away, deflecting attention from the huge thefts of national resources carried out within the law by men in executive offices." Howard Zinn: A People's History of the United States

Thanks Chris.... that makes sense. These are the same frames used to try and find Worrell - he really should be noticeable in this field of view... but I can't make him out either. DJ

Here's as thought Tommy... I embedded a photo that we know is Euins to help identify him in the Bell frame of that corner ... That uncanny ability to state the obvious while missing the entire point of the discussion shines

Hi VL... A test - walk around your office on a different floor than usual... or a cafe you've had lunch at a few times... no assassination, no traumatic experience. Give it a week. do you supposed you could tell me if you saw someone you barely knew standing by an elevator or door who is now accused of assassination of the president... the story out is this person was on the 6th floor firing a rifle and killing the president. Do you suppose you could say with certainty that this person was someone you walked past as you were scrambling to your office to get your stuff to go home and tell everyone what you witnessed? He has little if any identifying marks... he looks like Lovelady and a handful of other people you might walk by in the course of your day... our hindsight makes us assume these people would be looking for him.... they wouldn't be... he was a quiet nobody who had been there about a month, and a lowly grunt at that. I just dont think he would be remembered so that someone would say, no - he was on the steps outside - to the FBI... and contradict the authorities. It's hard for us to think that way since we are so overly familiar with the details - we live them daily and we didn't experience it first hand. Just another POV to consider DJ added: and those little clauses in their statements that say the witness did not see Oswald after 11:50 or so is not something anyone would question... Every once in a while you have to look at it as if you know nothing about the case... Witnesses over time recall the strangest things... the details of which can easily be guided by professionals to conclude whatever was needed IMO

"appeared to cross" This was not some random chance... the CIA (edit: those who become the CIA) worked hand in hand with the Nazis to save their upper echelon. It is IMO a foregone conclusion they taught us a thing or two about children, genetics and spying. Dulles and Angleton were WWII vets of the extreme nature. Wars, governments and men come and go - ideology and process remains for those transiently in power. It is very possible that some of the basics of genetics were employed to find "assets" for future use... The other real possibility is that they were found to look similar at age 17-18 and their back stories were selectively created... I'm just not sure of the how since I'm not in that business... the "moving forward in time" versus "creating the view backward" is something that requires a great deal of concentrated analysis... and still remains difficult to wrap one's head around... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

I edited the post with an earlier frame - I think you're right....

or better yet...if he was already over by that block he hide behind