David Josephs

. have you found a single photo or xray that looks like what McClellend or Sibert, or O'Neill, or anyone else other than Boswell drew?

Nice to see you finally concede that the so called post 8:00 witnesses (Siebert & O'Neill) describe the same wound as Parkland.

You are a moron... post an official autopsy photo/xray of the hole in the back of his head... as described by most everyone prior to Boswell....

That you can't figure out the context of the FBI's report and what Hoover was doing to his men and the USA is painfully obvious...

Talking to you Scott is like discussing it with a 5 year old.

Actually, I know 5 year olds who you can't hold a candle to... please go back to sleep or to whatever it is you do when not trolling on this forum...

============

Ray, he's all yours... but try to remember

You can't fix stupid.

If David Joseph's knowledge of all this is so outstanding then why doesn't he make me look foolish and simply answer the question?

Ok David, perhaps you know the answer to why the two chosen adolescents from different countries and different families would grow up looking so identical over a ten year period.

Bernie... I'd be glad to let the anomousity drop...

as to how and why these two were chosen and when I would like to offer this thought -

Did they choose H&L much later in the equation (around the time they entered the marines - whatever the "plan" was) since he looked like LEE and was going to be used for some "operation", and then go back to recreate his history with his caretaker providing the images of the younger HARVEY, which are virtually all blurry and/or hard to make out...

as opposed to trying to find children that looked alike?

There are woefully few photos of HARVEY between the ages of 13 and 17... by 18 they did indeed look alike.. but we'll get to that discussion later....

at 12 and 13 I do not think these two look the same, nor do I think their size is the same... so in answer to your question... they were not chosen so they would look the same years later, they were chosen cause they looked the same IN 1956/57 and their histories were merged into one so that HARVEY and/or LEE would become an untraceable asset...

Bernie - to be brutally honest, that thought occurred to me as I was typing this post...

the quesion you asked is the problem with the mindset and analysis, not the evidence of H&L... they worked BACKWARD from two men who looked similar enough to fool whoever may have looked closely, as opposed to forward from 1952.

DJ

So let's take it a little at a time... The beginning of this journey is the Summer of 1952 after LEE graduates 6th grade and moves to NYC with his mother...

Mr. JENNER - When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?

Mr. PIC - August 1952, sir.

Mr. JENNER - I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.

Mr. PIC - Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late 1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my wife and I in August of 1952

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0073b.htm (the photo is a very small piece of the exhibit)

So here is LEE anywhere from 1 year and 8 months BEFORE the Bronx zoo photo (early 1952) to even longer before... but appears to be his 6th grade photo, which in many school districts is taken during the first semester of the school year... so Fall 1951... (note: Bronx zoo photo supposedly from summer 1953)

You've read John Pic's testimony... he is shown a large number of images of his brother and repeatedly picks LEE from HARVEY...

The first image he says is not LEE is the Bronx Zoo photo...

Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?

Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?

Mr. PIC - No, sir.

Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?

Mr. PIC - No, sir.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0413b.htm

In 6th grade, on the right in my composite, LEE is 5'4" and 115lbs (we have those records too if you need)

and Yes, I did go as far as to find out the heights of the guardrails at the Bronx zoo

the photo was taken by Robert Oswald:

Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.

<snip>

Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir

(Jenner) Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?

Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

So is it fair to say this photo was taken in the Summer of 1953 AFTER he has graduated from a Ft Worth elementary school and in NYC?

Is it also fair to say that the WCR informs us that these are the same people?

Is there evidence available that contradicts the size of LEE in NYC as not being a LARGE, 5'4" 115lb soon to be 13 year old leader in his class and sometime bully... but being a very small, undernourished looking boy?

Do these boys look "identical" to you?

Can we agree this is the place to start our discussion of how "identical" these boys are...

DJ

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing

Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what?
Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.

Yup... nothing gets past you Sherlock.... have you found a single photo or xray that looks like what McClellend or Sibert, or O'Neill, or anyone else other than Boswell drew?

If that's what the FBI saw... why is there no evidence from that Autopsy that remotely looks like that? (You remember, the entire POINT of the discussion)

While what we do have in the way of photos, xrays and autopsy report is Temporal-parietal...

Wussamader Scott, Ray have enough and you got noone to play with.... pretty pathetic bringing so much attention to your insightful analysis of the medical evidence while never once actually posting an image which comes FROM the evidence to back you up...

But hey, whatever allows you to show off all that research and analysis you've done..

Bob... still trying to understand how we would know by sight, what the exact size of CE399 was before it was fired...

And if there are tolerances of 1/1000th of a inch .....

Well, you've known my point all along...

That rifle was not Oswald's, it was planted after firing those cartridges found on the 6th floor

CE399 was never in Dallas

Oswald was not at the window

That rifle was probably not even fired that day...

So how do the measurements of these items relate to each other... other than to continue to suggest what we have already proven ....?

With information/measurements we can never be completely sure about...

WE ALL know that the C2766 was a POS, thescope was off, it was supposedly assembled 5 minutes before it was shot, no alignment shots were fired, three men 10 feet from the muzzle can hear the working of the bolt and the drop of the shells, 3 times! - and it's a stretch to believe C2766 nor CE399 were not involved in any way... ??

I'm with you... though... Frazier and the FBI were playing a shell game...

DJ

What may be of some importance here is to step back off of Armstrong & me, and just consider the evidence.

John is human and of course speculated based on the information he uncovered both in the evidence and that which was never followed up by anyone.. as well as evidence not included in the book but in thousands of pages of notebooks compiled during his research for the book

Without John we do not know of Frank Kudlaty and the FBI coming to Stripling the morning of 11/23 to take records of young Oswald from a location he never "officially" attended.

So I ask myself - what is so important to Hoover that less than 8 hours after his being charged for the murder of JFK, FBI agents are at a school across the street from where Marguerite is living at the time... to retrieve records for the fall of 1954... 9 years prior.... what "evidence" is to be found to assist in finding Oswald guilty of a murder in Dallas 9 years later?

What occurs between the summer of 1952 and 1956 ? What does this evidence which the FBI acquired, copied and submitted (with originals no longer available) as evidence, say?

Well, it tells the story of attendance at a school in NYC while also telling of a Truant child remanded to Youth house... with three different versions of a "permanent NYC school record" none of which correctly adding up to the right number of days in a school year....

It tells of a child attending PS44 for 105 3/2 and missing 15 3/2 days, a total of 129 and 6 half days... from 3/23/53 thru early June 1963.

Think about that... there are 180 or so school days in a year, yet the records offer 129 in less than a single semester... at EXACTLY the same time he goes from the tallest 5'4" 115lb 6th grade kid to a 4'9" scrawny child with sever mental problems.... truancy, not saluting the flag, etc....

Other WCR records tell of Oswald spending from April 23 thru May 7 at Youth house... CE2224 with no record or interruption in his PS44 attendance...

... what is not said is that there were/are THREE PS44's in NYC... Manhattan, Bronx and Queens.

So until one takes the time to reconcile these dates and these records... attacking John or me for focusing attention on these records is directly akin to shooting the messenger... rather than addressing the message.

CE1384 is but one of a number of NYC school record copies... here they are side by side: ce1384 on the right and the other versions not at all matching...

So before condemnation of the man, how about analysis of the evidence offered and provide your own explanations....

This is but the tip of a huge iceberg...

The FBI created a story about LHO... they created stories about all sorts of things which we came to find were fraudulent...

Norman Redlich caught them, and said so on 4/27/64.... and it fell on deaf ears...

The evidence of HARVEY and family being Hungarian Communists is not extensive at all... it relies on a letter and followup interview of a woman claiming to have known HARVEY's father and uncle in NYC.

Is it rock solid? not by any means, imo... so let's put that on the back burner - please - and just look at what the FBI offered as evidence of Oswald's locations and activities starting in the summer of 1952...

It has been and always will be about the Evidence... the evidence betrays the conspiracy and cover-up, as we know....

If anyone else has spent the time I have in detailed analysis and mapping of this information, please offer up your expertise...

I don't have all the answers, but I do have a very in-depth knowledge of the EVIDENCE from which the book was written...

DSL asking why there is no medical evidence in H&L is the same as asking him why there is no H&L in Best Evidence... because it was not the focus of the book...

I have not worked my way to the Tippit murder yet via H&L.. John has his ideas based his knowledge of the evidence.. but I do know that those who saw this man who looked like Oswald described him very differently than the man arrested....

yet the evidence gets so much more unavailable as we get closer to the event...

When you've completed an analysis of 1952 thru the return from Russia as offered and available, you can come to your own conclusions.

When you look at CE1961 and then what Felde says in ce1962 which contradicts where and when Oswald was where the RECORDS says he was... along with half dozen other men never questioned... there is reconciliation to be done.... http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0415a.htm%C2'>

Baylor has over 1000 folders with evidence in them... the CD with the book has hundreds of images...

It would nice, instead of lynching our own, that we take the time to learn the material, or allow those who do know it to offer their understanding while pointing to it...

I do not post my opinions unless I preface it with IMO, or some other indicator that I am not presenting facts...

When I present facts/evidence, I go out of my way to provide the source for it.... or an image of it.

The time has come to stop attacking John, or Jim H or me over H&L and do the homework.... this is not one isolated misinterpretation... H&L evidence runs rampant for over 10 years from 1952 thru 1963... and the evidence is almost all in the WCR FBI submitted records.... or those actions of the FBI which appear suspect given an "innocent" government's activities to find its president's killer. If you can dismiss all of this evidence - so be it... John nor I have hinged our lives on anyone "getting" it....

Unlike so many others whose lives, income and reputations are built on there not being an H&L in the records

Peace

DJ

Do we know the chain of custory concerning Lee's handgun that he brandished at the Theatre? This thought hit me today and unfortunately I have not read as many accurate books as I'd like to regarding the subject. I wonder if the malfunctioning firing pin was a coincidence or not.

Hi B.A... nice to see you.

The following is a composite of all the physical evidence related to Seaport's receiving, processing and shipping of the order, supposedly from January 1963 and not shipped until the same day the rifle is shipped.

Mr. BALL. I hand you a document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 135. (the mail order coupon) Will you examine that and tell me whether or not you ever saw that before?

Mr. MICHAELIS. I saw it the first time on November the 30th.

Mr. BALL. The first time?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you find that? Where was it when you saw it on November 30?

Mr. MICHAELIS. It was attached to our invoice No. 5371, in the records, the red copy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do with filling that order?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No

Mr. BALL. And it shows deposit, $10. Balance c.o.d., $19.95. What is the significance of that?

Mr. MICHAELIS. We received, together with the order, the amount of $10 in cash. Since the sales price is $29.95, the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d for the balance of $19.95

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; Mr. Rose usually opens the mail and distributes the mail. This particular order would have gone to the person in charge at that time of the Seaport Traders, who was Emma Vaughn.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. MICHAELIS. Emma Vaughn, V-a-u-g-h-n.

Mr. BALL. Then what would have happened?

Mr. MICHAELIS. She would have processed the order in writing up invoice No. 5371. After 1 week she gave out the order to the order filler and packer

At the very latest this coupon is dated 1/27/63... (enlargement bottom right) The invoice date is 3/13/63....

Mr. BALL. It is given a No. DL-29. Will you describe it, please? (Exhibit #4)

Mr. MICHAELIS. Yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the Railway Express Agency showing that on March 20, 1963, one carton with a pistol was shipped to A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. It shows, furthermore, that Railway Express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $19.95. And it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is 70638.

...

Mr. BALL. Does it identify the invoice in any way?

Mr. MICHAELIS. No.

....

Mr. MICHAELIS. This document is required in addition by the Railway Express Agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, No. 5371. It directs the Railway Express Agency to remit the amount to be collected to Seaport Traders, Inc. The amount of the c.o.d. is $19.95, and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have that marked as Exhibit 5.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything in your files which shows that the Railway Express did remit to you the $19.95?

Mr. MICHAELIS. The fact that the exhibit number--may I see this green one?

Mr. BALL. Five.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Was attached to the red copy of the invoice.

Mr. BALL. Red copy of the invoice being----

Mr. MICHAELIS. No; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number----

Mr. BALL. Two.

Mr. MICHAELIS. Indicates that the money was received.

The sequence then is

1) Seaport receives the coupon dated as late as 1/27/63 with a $10 CASH deposit - no envelope ala Kleins is offered and no record of a $10 deposit related to that order is offered

2) Invoice 5371 is created on 3/13/63, 7 weeks after the date on the coupon

3) The order is packed and prepared for Railway - Exh #5 -

4) Railway provides Exh #4 back to Seaport completing the transactions with a promise to submit the $19.95 to Seaport and to keep the $1.27 Shipping charge

5) Proof of delivery and payment is, according to Michaelis, strictly that one receipt is attached to another - there is no record of the $21.22 paid to retrieve the shipment for the COD, and since the mailing address is a PO Box... REA notifies the consignee that they have a package to pick-up and pay for....

6) There remains no record of a notice, no record of a pick-up, no record of a payment, no record or REA sending Seaport payment, no record of REA collecting its COD charge....

While this evidence is easily available within the WCR exhibits, Gil took the necessary additional steps to quantify the charade.... he notes that the order on the coupon was for a $29.95 .38 St. W 2" Bbl

yet the documentation shows they prepared a a different pistol - exactly like the Rifle order - as opposed to the one ordered.... a pistol that remarkably is listed on the order form a few rows up, and is the pistol of choice at the side of virtually every Dallas Policeman, a .38 Special 2" Commando.

And. much like the Rifle, there is no record of ammunition every being purchased... while the ammo taken from him oddly appears as if taken from a leather gunbelt like those worn by police officers....

Like the rifle, the FBI created the necessary evidence - but only up to a point - never actually believing any of this would see the light of day... an open and shut case...

I hope this helps B.A. Take care

DJ

http://www.giljesus.com/Tippit/handgun.htm

If a shipment of a firearm was to a Post Office Box, REA's procedure was to leave a notice in the form of a postcard, notifying the addressee where to pick the package up and of any outstanding charges

....

In fact NO ONE FROM RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY was ever called to testify about the sale of the handgun.

PS Warning to Bernie: Don't criticize DJ too much or accuse the believers of the "Harvey and Lee" thing of being in a kind of "cult," because if you do, DJ will get really, really defensive and obnoxious and will say, in so many words, that your opinions are just "stuff that you pull out of your posterior", that it's you that doesn't have any manners, and then he will try to silence you (and other "heretics" like you) by insinuating that you are trying to close this great forum down by having the audacity to "attack and insult" him and his fellow H&L believers.

Please do not disagree with David Josephs in language even remotely as insulting as his, or it will all be gone again!

Tommy, bring your circus over to the DPF... see if anyone puts up with your rhetorical specualtion and lack of presentation skills... no wonder JA has had enough of you people.

i heartily second your comments and as that band says: sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

that is unless armstrong wrote a work of coincidental fiction like the warren report.

You got that right my friend.... Bernie here exemplifies the reason John S. has to shut this place down...

Cheers and see you over at DPF

DJ

I have said many times before David, I don't need to read the full bible to know whether I am a Christian or not. Conversely I believe in evolution, but I confess I have not read Darwin's Origin of the Species. I don't need to. There are plenty of books, articles, essays, polemics, forums like this where these ideas can be expressed and countered. From that I can form a view.

Either you are missing out huge chunks of convincing evidence, or what you are presenting just doesn't have traction.

It does divert from a lot of the pressing issues though...

Argumentative and defensive Bernie? That's how you want to have an open discussion about the evidence... so be it.

If you want to have a deep theological discussion with a priest you might want to at least brush up on the facts in THE BOOK.

I'm sure I can find hundreds of examples where your "christian behavior" does not jive with what that book which provides you the rules, offers....

Loudly proclaiming you don't need to read thoroughly or research what you offer your opinions on is .... well... what would you call it?

You don't even seem to have the ability to ask a direct question on the evidence yet you can proclaim it "cultish" and wrong...

"to ask for us to help you understand" You flatter yourself david. Like a child strayed from the flock I clearly need help to see the light. Sound familiar...?

Did you not post: "So can someone in the H/L cult please explain this?"

and then come at me with snide BS when I dismiss your lack of manners to do so anyway.... ?

or is your memory of what you wrote that poor? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21061&page=2#entry285270

Bernie... if you want to understand something, insults and attacks will not get it done...

What is it that bothers you most about the evidence supporting H&L... not your interpretation of images... not YOUR anything... what specifically do you disagree with in the Evidence and then go about showing us why it is not correct...

All you've done to this point is show you're ignorance and refusal to learn anything more since your mind is made up... while insulting the very thing you can't comprehend..

Is that what the BOOK you don't read, which offers the expectations and rules upon which to live your life as a Christian, tells you about how to approach your fellow man?

if so, Please post THAT passage....

So can someone in the H/L cult please explain this? Did the originators of this dastardly plot KNOW that H/L were going to emerge from adolescence looking identical? If so...how?

First off Bernie.. "cult" is condescending and unnecessary... and then you have the nuts to ask for us to help you understand... maybe a Zig Zegler course might help?

anyway... children that look similar at age 11, 12, 13 will generally look similar later in life as well... if you consider a 5'11" 165 man and a 5'8" 135 lb "identical"...

which they are obviously not...

Those two images are from only a WEEK apart... the passport and other ID photos are a week apart.

Maybe you can help us understand how John Pic was able to pick LEE from HARVEY at every age and in every instance... HIS BROTHER Bernie...

So what you see and believe is your right.... it simply does not trump the evidence.

The rest of your post is just assumption and snide sarcasm

I don't expect any honest answers; the proponents of this theory are even more dishonestly evangelical than the SBT mongers, only ten times more damaging. No wonder Mr Mainstream writes us all off as freaks and 'head-the-balls'!

Please don't implore me to read the whole book David. You've had years now to tease out the most compelling parts; none of you have sold it. Why would I want to wade through a huge tome when its proponents refuse to answer simple questions about the gaping holes?

No worries Bernie.. You reading the very thing you are condemning would only look academically sound and responsible... 1000 pages and tens of thousands of source docs on the CD are only for people interested in an educated discussion..

It's a religion...and not a very good one at that!

You a religious scholar now too? you've read the entire Bible, the Torah and the Koran...? or do you just bash things you have limited knowledge about and hope others don't notice, even after you've proclaimed your ignorance and refusal to do your own investigation?

There's a line from a favorite band of mine: You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know...

Interested you can ID holes in theory you barely understand... but please... post a list of your questionable holes and I'll do what I can to help you see the evidence...

For at the root of all this is NOT John Armstrong, but the evidence he uncovered...

The EVIDENCE shows a Harvey & a Lee to be two separate people existing in two different spaces which were merged to create one Oswald for the WCR and beyond.

I'm inclined to agree with Martin Blank in that I feel the theory makes sense out of chaos, and I have no problem believing that Angleton could be so clever. The most difficult part for me is believing that Lee was born in Russia, and Harvey in the US, and that having such different physical descriptions growing up they somehow ended up close in size and weight and looking so much alike. Is plastic surgery the explanation for this?

Paul,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't "Lee" supposed to have been born in Hungary?

(Of course back then all Hungarians had to learn Russian, an Indo-European language quite different from their non-Indo-European Hungarian....)

--Tommy

No Tommy, that was Harvey.

Thanks Dawn.

But I've got to ask you something: Why the heck is it so gosh darn important for JFK assassination researchers and / or bloggers to get their stupid facts straight, anyway? Sheez!

(Just kidding.)

--Tommy

Message for Martin Blank: It was "Lee" "Harvey" who was from Russia Hungary.

Not entirely accurate...

There was info from a woman who claims to have known HARVEY's Father and Uncle in NYC who she claims were from Hungary...

There is no info on where the boy that becomes HARVEY was born...

you know.. for accuracy sake.

From my timeline spreadsheet:

1947 1 27 Mrs Jack Tippit (Westport, CT) tells FBI that HARVEY's father and uncle from Hungary live in NYC Yorkville, NYC 77th & 2nd Ave

Larry - appreciate and respect your position. The photo of Roscoe White in his possession listed as "A friend of Lee's in the Marine's" furthers this point.

Paul...

I completely understand and was in your position up until about 8 or so months ago when John and I became much more closely acquainted and I began this project to help me see the parallels.

if you or anyone would like, I took these last months and compiled an incident-by-incident, page-by-page analysis of H&L and the related Baylor materials in the format of a side by side spreadsheet table...

This is a snapshot of that work.... I have yet to see how I can upload a spreadsheet... which is truly the only way to see and work with the info... since it allows search, filter, etc...

PM me, or email me your email address and I would gladly send you a locked protected version...

I have reached a point at 12:55 on 11/22.... the facts about who Reid sees and who others see leads me to believe LEE was in DP and part of the deception.... I too do not necessarily agree with every sentence in the book, yet one needn't to see what the puzzle's picture looks like. I also have a few issues with JA's post assassination movements of LEE with relation to Tippit... yet I have not expanded on my understanding of that time frame - nor do I think there need be any contradiction in the H&L evidence prior to the assassination, with what is proposed for events that occur afterward... as presented in the book....

The spreadsheet is filled with direct quotes from the book and supporting evidence... I've downloaded scores of his Baylor notebooks and all the cd's images/docs.

This summary is imo the easiest way to digest the data and in turn find and review the supporting documentation. I express no personal opinions... I simply put the info in and if unsure, a question mark...

DJ

Larry.... (this is not a call out, just very interested in your take on the following)

only 8 hours after he is officially charged with JFK's death... Hoover has agents wake Kudlaty at 7am to retrieve Oswald's records from STRIPLING JR HIGH...

Mr Kudlaty cooperates by quickly reviewing the file... noticing that Oswald was in attendance long enough to have partial grades but not long enough to have finished a term...

On Sept 5, 1954, Oswald and MO are at 1454 St. Mary's in New Orleans LA attending Beauregard JHS - according to the WCR school records

Stripling JHS is across the street from 2220 Thomas Pl... the home MO retrieves furniture from in 1947.. as well as her residence on Nov 22, 1963.

I would just like to understand what explanation is possible for the FBI and Hoover's knowledge that LHO attended Stripling at all in 1954... and why it was so urgent, the morning after the accused is formally charged, that these records are at the top of Hoover's must get list.... followed that next week with interviews of the employees of Pfisterer's related to 1957.... both well before Robert's mention of Stripling or Palmer's mention of Pfisterer's...

I urge you to review CE1961... specifically as it transitions from CE1961 (US military record) to CE1962, the report of Allen Felde. Felde is one of a number of names the WCR and beyond ignored and buried and John found, followed and uncovered... and was with HARVEY when Lee was elsewhere.

As John and I often discussed.... the evidence offered by the WCR itself proves the existence of these two people.... in the early days following the assassination, what kind of fear or need to cover-up a secret of monumental importance pushed Hoover and then the other branches of government and national security to try and bury the evidence leading to this discovery...

So whether there was a huge operation to artificially create the dual history merged to one as a false flag... or the reality of their concurrent existence....

There remains occasion after occasion where the location and actions of one contradict the other.... when this understanding finally reaches the mainstream of Conspiracy realists, and they do the due diligence required to understand... maybe, like that falsification of the autopsy evidence... H&L will be accepted and built upon, rather than snickered at and dismissed..

1947 Sept 5 Lucille HUBBARD drives MO to a house near Stripling to pick up furnitiure 2220 THOMAS PLACE Oswald's school: Benbrook Common School Grade: 2nd (9/5/47) 1505 8th Ave Fort Worth 2nd Lily B Clayton Elementary (Ft Worth #19) Mrs Florence Murphy: LEE the leader of the 7/8yr olds; Phil Vinson recalls in 1963 article 1959 March 15 HARVEY in the "LIGHTER THAN AIR STATION" at Santa Ana while GRAF tells FBI Ely that the LHO he was with was NEVER at MCAF MACS-9 / MCAF Santa Ana CA MAG-3 El Toro, CA Allen D. Graf was transferred from North Carolina to El Toro, CA in the spring of 1959.21 He told FBI Agent Birl Wilson that he was Oswald's Platoon Sergeant for 6-8 months at Marine Air Control Group 3 (MAG 3) in El Toro. Graf remembers LEE as a VERY GOOD MARKSMAN with a score of 229, NOT 191.... and DISAGREES with the FBI report attributed to him.

MACS-9 Santa Ana and MAG-3 El Toro are not the same base but are down the road from one another

The only thing the Zfilm is good for is that it remains the trail of breadcrumbs for how images and math were used to create a false history of the event.

The alteration evidence shows in the frames, the speed of the limo versus the suvery legends made from the film itself

and in the conclusion of the FBI...

I cannot stress enough WCD298 and the completely amazing way they present a third shot at the foot of the stairs, z375 or so.

The Zfilm, which was at their disposal and use to determine distances from Mr. Z to JFK himself

along with the Survey plat if Mr West with its fraudulent legend...

Mr. SPECTER. And what model reproduction, if any, did you make of the scene of the assassination itself?
Mr. GAUTHIER. The data, concerning the scene of the assassination, was developed by the Bureau's Exhibits Section, including myself, at the site on December 2, 3, and 4,. of 1963. From this data we built a three-dimensional exhibit, one-quarter of an inch to the foot. It contained the pertinent details of the site, including street lights, catch basin, concrete structures in the area, including buildings, grades, scale models of the cars that comprised the motorcade, consisting of the police lead car, the Presidential car, the followup car, the Lincoln open car that the Vice President was riding in, and the followup car behind the Vice-Presidential car.

Mr. GAUTHIER. Commission Exhibit No. 879 is a view of the scale model looking toward the southwest, in the direction of the Triple Underpass, from a position on the sixth floor in the southeast corner window.

What the WCR fails to mention or refer to is WCD298 and the significance of the placement of these vehicles.... http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10699&relPageId=1

I did what I could to try and see if there are the same strings representing shots on CE 879 as the image from WCD298.... which reads:

POSITIONS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAR WHEN SHOTS ONE, TWO AND THREE WERE FIRED.. but they are not there.

This report, in one simple step renders the information related to the shots in the WCR completely false... and Mr Redlich knew it...:

The last paragraph of the PREFACE basically tells us that these models replace the need to go to Dealey Plaza, "to GAIN A FULL AND COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE HAPPENEING SURROUNDING EACH EVENT."

Why this remains an issue, when on Dec 4, 1963 the FBI disproved the validity of the ZFILM.. and then gave these results to the WCR which obviously lost it along the way.... is mind boggling.

One simple question to ANY DOUBTER.... What did Gauthier and the FBI use to determine the position of the last shot?

DJ

"MERELY TO SUBSTANTIATE THE HYPOTHESIS WHICH UNDERLIES THE CONCLUSIONS THAT OSWALD WAS THE SOLE ASSASSIN"

omfg! and people like Dunkel and DVP defend this stuff

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

<snip>

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

The notion that there is no difference between Dallas and Bethesda version of the wounds is what is a myth--and Pat Speer ought to know better.

David... thank you. (you as well Daniel...)

While what occurred at Bethesda between 6:40 and 8pm is, in my mind, the essence of the historical fraud... the bigger question remains....

How were 3 Rear Admirals and a 4 star general placed on that path?

Was this part of the plan or a phone call like the one that went to AF-1: No conspiracy, Oswald alone... which is then communicated from Sit Room/White House to these military players - "Make it look like on shot from behind and CYA"

If one was to look a little more deeply into the relationships JFK had with the key Naval players... and his run-ins with LeMay... the hatred was apparent. ONI, DIA and INS are key players who have offered us very little in the way of evidece. Even if they despised the man, overseeing the wholesale destruction of evidence in favor of a smooth coup flies directly into the face of these fiercely patriotic men....

and if they would cover this up... can you just imagine what else was changed and left to history?

Again... thanks David. Your work remains thoroughly inspirational...

A question if you don't mind: What if anything do you make of Ebersole's gobbledegook claim of the neck wound being sutured when he first sees him....

Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck.

Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it...

WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you...

ARRB

SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 -

when we were in that autopsy room. One

of us was present aII the time, with the exception

of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays

were done.

They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room...

They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket.

No, David. There appears to be sections of research you are not aware of.

This occurs at 8pm Scott... that's was the entire point.

O'Neill and Sibert dropped a casket in the anteroom and were asked to leave... they did not see the body again until they were let in AFTER 8pm...

That Sibert claims both Boswell's drawing of the head and his drawing represent the same wound is the hurdle you just can't get over...

Read BEST EVIDENCE and read HORNE Volume 4... and then look around a little and READ the evidence...

Quoting me, back to me is a cope out.... So far all we've seen from you is air... no substance but alot of blowing around...

LEARN the subject before you post about it Scott... your ignorance about the subject matter is obvious...

For my friends who have read and followed this travesty of rebuttal from these two... I'm sorry they can't present a case or address any of the questions asked with any honesty...

Maybe next time on the next forum..

Cheers

DJ

Scott....

These are the two men who carried an empty casket into the ante-room of the morgue and are then kicked out until AFTER 8pm...

Let's try to remember the title of the thread Scott: Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head?

And we are discussing the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE CREATED AT BETHESDA ... not what the FBI said about what they saw...

We all know that actual witnesses differ with the EVIDENCE, that's the entire point there Scott... the fraudulent AUTOPSY EVIDENCE... which does not represent what most say they saw..

Would you PLEASE post an image of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that supports an occipital only blow-out - which is what, to a person, each of the wintesses claim was the only wound on JFK in DALLAS.

Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it...

WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you...

ARRB

SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 -

when we were in that autopsy room. One

of us was present aII the time, with the exception

of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays

were done.

Oooops! you mean they were NOT in the room between 6:40 and 8pm when xrays and photos of JFK were taken? or are they talking about xrays AFTER 8pm ???

(You may wish to read a bit further... ALL the xrays were done prior to the first incision according to these men...

Good luck working that one thru ....

They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room...

They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket.

Say it ain't so! But Sibert here tells us the body was wrapped in sheets... and that before the first incision AT 8:15pm, they were able to take photos and xrays with everyone out of the room....

Scott... these photos and xrays take time to take... and the xrays, which were developed at the time, took quite a bit of time - if you had actually read the testimonies you'd already know that...

So with none of the xrays taken AFTER the first incision... and Finck arrives at 8:30 to a full set of xrays... you've read all the xray technicians' evidence, yes?

So, how dat possible ???

Q: First incision. How much time was there

between the time that the body was unwrapped from

the sheets and the first incision was made?

A: Well. this is the time that you would have

had the X-rays and the photographs And I don’t

recall. And I think they probably may have waited

a little bit to get those X-rays developed.

I recall there was Kellerman and Greer -

who was the driver - O’Neill and myself And

there were some others. There had to be. And I

don’t know who assisted in that, but we carried it

through the door and right on into the autopsy

room and set it on the floor there before it was

opened.

Q: The floor of the autopsy room, or the

floor of the ward, generally?

A: Well, it was sort of a anteroom there. I think

HSCA Recap:

But there definitely was a

large cavity and I think this probably accounts for

what Humes mentioned at the first about surgery to

the head area. I mean, it was just that apparent

that there was that much skull missing.

Sibert examined the autopsy descriptive sheet

found in the Warren Report and said it was done by Dr.

Boswell. He said the ".. .drawing was pretty accurate

as to what we described." He said the general location

of the wounds "...looks accurate." Sibert also said

that CE385 and CE386 looked accurate as well.

So, in 1977 Sibert is shown the following and states they are accurate... or the HSCA stated that he said it was accurate... MD46 was the revised HSCA affidavit, corrected from md155... You will find Sibert's signature on MD46 and a fairly good representation of the info contained within, in MD85.

Now let me ask you a question... does the drawing Sibert did for the ARRB (at the bottom) resemble Ryberg's drawings?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138645

or Boswell's sheet?

Specifically the Ryberg drawings...

To conclude again... There is nothing in the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that does not show a rear entering bullet blowing out the bone to the right and in front of the coronal suture along with creating a furrow 4.5cm deep running from the occipital to the right temple... as well as cleanly cutting the spinal cord and magically detatching all the connective tissue on the left side of his scalp/skull/brain...

Meanwhile the witness description of the damage and the photographs conflict with these xrays... xrays we both agree were taken of JFK at Bethesda, at some point.

onelast question... what was happening at the Bethesda morgue between 6:40 and 8pm... and please show us how there are no conflicts in your account...

Thanks

(side note: did it ever bother you Scott, that they described JFK's skeleton with as much fraudulence as they did the brain? "no Gross abnormalities" "1500cc's" ?)

Pat - you just claimed that Jackie walked fro mthe morgue to the front entrance AFTER they dropped off the casket and YOU are calling ME out on accuracy... that's a laigh

He claimed: "The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it." ONE = Hearse

and "We had everything organized by that afternoon" POretty good trick given they were still going to REED and discussion it on AF-1....

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm - What he ACTUALLY SAID

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=349&relPageId=1 What the HSCA WROTE he said

When either one of you can explain the goings on between 6:40 and 8pm at Bethesda, we'll have something to talk about...

Until then your games of he said she said are simply a diversion...

Very good, David! You've shown what I've been saying all along. There are serious conflicts with the autopsy evidence. The x-rays show a downward trajectory and the autopsy report describes an upward trajectory. According to you Humes made alterations showing an upward one then reconstructed the head showing a downward one all in a matter of hours. Why would anyone do that? Who creates evidence that seriously conflicts with alterations they allegedly just made of the wounds?

Why indeed Scott... but they did - that's the way it happened, so instead of asking WHY oh WHY to a question that cannot be answered.. PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

It took years and years just to pry this fraudulent evidence from the government's clutches...

Humes claims a 6:45 time (or at least 7:30) for seeing JFK in the morgue...

I just posted the FBI's statement - you know they guys who wrote "Surgery to the Top of the Head" - who completely blows Pat's "facts about what happened at Bethesda" out of the water from the very first second...

So please... both of you... any chance you will post ANYTHING in defense of there not being alterations at Bethesda... you know.. show somone in Dallas who believes that everything forward the coronal suture on the right side extending to the occipital is gone... Just one.

or you going to keep blowing smoke up everyone's a$$ and asking rhetorical WHY questions?

Yes indeed BIll... looks GREAT!

One would think that there'd be a database of all these names and connections by now... SPARTACUS is kind of set up that way, but only on the surface....

Will take a look at Visio and see if I can't do some sort of interconnected Org Chart...

Thanks for the kick start.

One step forward, three steps back....

Thanks to Tom we've learned amazing things about the DP Mapping and survey calcs and how they were manipulated... but he still has no frontal shot and yet another shot hitting JFK down the road as does the FBI...

Now both Tom and the FBI are going on some evidence to suggest the shot 40-45 feet further down Elm... 40 feet in 1.9 seconds is an ave speed of 14.35mph

I've come to understand that 313 came from the front, whether another shot hits his head is discussed in FBI memos regarding the location of the bullets... one in the SS possession which becomes CE399 and one lodged behind JFK's ear as of 9:18pm EST - DURING the autopsy... suffice to say, no record of a bullet removed either from the ear or the intercostal muscles exists...

Based on where the FBI placed the cars... and who built the model - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm - the FBI was under the impression THIS was the shooting sequence...

I aligned it with Z375 roughly by seeing the base of the far lamppost in Z.

Missing from the Zfilm then is this shot and Chaney gunning up to the lead car to talk to Curry.... so much so that by McIntyre, Chaney is no longer in the picture...

I wonder if TOM is saying that the shot was fired while what see on the Zfilm inset occurs at a different time and place... or is the Zfilm correct and the position we see Jackie and JFK WAS the position they were in when that shot hit JFK?

Finally... we have a few frames of what appears to beJFK sitting up after z400..... that sure does appear to be JFK sitting up next to Jackie, given what we know about JC and how he was under Nellie

444, 461 and 466 provide further evidence of JFK sitting up - or at least not fallen over in Jackie's lap...

Just more food for thought...

DJ

Sorry, David, but that is not Lipsey's statement. You have it backwards. His words do not suggest Mrs. Kennedy was in the decoy hearse. They suggest she rode with the body and then walked around the front after the body was delivered to the back.

I never said a word about who was in a decoy hearse or if there was one Pat, Lipsey does... you're so busy justifying your nonsense you don't read the posts...

Now you are claiming that the same ambulance that delivered the casket and Jackie, drove to the morgue with them in it, dropped it off and then she WALKED to the front...

What planet are you on Pat? Why does Lipsey talk about a decoy HEARSE, not ambulance, and that the body is met at the back by him and Wehle and Bird and the MDW...

and if he is correct, JFK had to have been removed from the images below and put into thei OTHER CASKET at some point...

Or he is full of it... and there was not body in the casket at the front of the hospital... the body was in the morgue, xrays and alteration in full swing,

as Jackie, Bobbie, Pamela et al... are sent to the upper floors...

If you have ANY PROOF of what you claim, post it.

And when they came in, one of the hearses went right up to the front door.

Which one of the "hearses" went to the front door - The AMBULANCE with the casket, Jackie, Bobby etc... or the HEARSE with the decoy?

When/where was there a DECOY HEARSE AND CASKET and how did JFK's body get into that one - when we all see him loaded in the big bronze casket into the navy ambulance which parked out fron and let Jackie and Bobby and party off before being lost until 8pm.... ??

All of the crowd, of course, rushed over there. The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it

Which "one" (Ambulance or Hearse) is Lipsey here talking about Pat...?

Does not appear to be the same as the ambulance the casket was loaded into... there was a HEARSE WITH A DECOY CASKET (a metal shipping casket ) in the motorcade from Andrews to Bethesda now that is driven to the morgue and met by helicopters in the back?

So now you are saying that the FBI/SS KNEW they were carrying in an empty casket at 7:17?

Okay... Since JFK had arrived with the motorcade, in a BLACK HEARSE in a DIFFERENT CASKET... how did he get there?

So Pat... is JFK in THIS Casket at THIS time? I see Jackie at the bottom of the stairs....

GREER: .....I boarded USAF Plane #26000 and returned to Andrews AFB, Wash. D.C. From Andrews AFB, I drove the U.S. Navy ambulance with the President's Body, accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General to the U.S. Naval Medical Center. I assisted Mr. Kellerman while the autopsy was being performed and then drove the ambulance with the President's body to the White House

and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up.

Senator COOPER. The President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face. (you've SEEN the anterior xray, right Pat... where the bone is gone on the right side down to his cheek and back to his ear?)

....Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh. In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities.

Kellerman's Report:

While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found.

Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present.

O'NEILL:

A: Every single moment. Every single moment. There was no possibility that the vehicle stopped-or the ambulance stopped; that anybody took a casket out, switched any bodies, as some ”authors”- because they’re not authors-some people have said. No way at all. Nothing.

So, now we’re out at Andrews- excuse me. We’re out at Bethesda Naval Station. We come in through the main gate. Now we have naval personnel on either sides. Now we have other individuals. there are people watching it, looking at it.

The ambulance moved in front. Mrs. - Q: The front of the hospital? A: The front of the hospital. Now, bear in mind, I’m familiar with the hospital there, and so is Jim, because we our

physical examinations there every year. So, we were familiar with a good portion of the hospital itself.

Mrs. Kennedy got out. Bobby Kennedy got out. And people from the - from the hospital itself - I believe that Admiral Holloway (sic) chatted and talked.

In the first car, which was in front of us, was Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell, Godfrey McHugh-General McHugh was the - I think, maybe Admiral Burkley or somebody. But there was a group of people there.

After some small talk, evidently, in in front, Kellerman went into the hospital. Bobby Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and probably Burkley, went in and went up to either the 17th or 19th floor.

And now WC have Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell and McHugh chatting in front of the Place. They were there for a period of time. And

Jim and I are looking at each other - Oh, Pamela Turnure, by the way, got out, too. She went with Mrs. Kennedy. The valet went in also, I guess.

There was a period of time nothing happened.

Jim and I looked at each other, and we decided to find out what the story was. We went up to Larry O’Brien and said, “What’s the delay?”

And as best I recall, he said, ‘Well, they don’t know”- Greer was the driver of the ambulance – “where the autopsy room is”

Q: Did you see-other than the Navy gray ambulance that the casket was in, did you see any other ambulances out at Bethesda?

A: Not- well, there were other ambulance’s there. But I-but not, to the best of my recollection, that any took off, or any had the body in it, or anything like that.

Q: Did you see any hearses at Andrews-I’m sorry.

A: Hearse? No.

Q: At Bethesda?

A: No, sir.

Q: okay.

We can continue with his ARRB testimony if you like... but the information you pass off as FACT is severely wanting in every aspect...

Jackie did NOT walk from the morgue to the front, Lipsey does not say this - in fact not a soul does... your INFERENCES notwithstanding... can you please stick to presenting FACTS with SOURCES... and not what you THINK Lipsey means....

So far every piece of evidence I have posted has been corroborated by numerous sources... you going to address my questions or does your shell game continue?

DJ

Bill - I have to say how much I am enjoying your book... Is there any chance you did an organizational chart to illustrate all these connections? There is a portion of one for the Mexico City station, yet as I did with Armstrong's H&L, I may have to try to graphically represent these relationships using a Visio type program, or a data base type of set-up.

Not having the connections easily visualized takes something from my understanding of the whole... I too spend time just diving into the MFF docs to see what turns up - that's how I found WCD298...

I remain a firm believer that HARVEY Oswald was not in Mexico in late Sept... yet LEE may have...

What I appreciate the most in your book is how you spell out the counter and counter-counter activities each of the intelligence agencies has to engage in to "watch their own backs" - that OSWALD on these tapes was a ruse by the Cubans or others to find out more about the USA operations is something I know I forget to include in my thinking...

I do have a question...

How long before the actual assassination - given Tampa and Chicago operations - do YOU believe the Dallas scenario was set up and was Oswald always the Dallas patsy?

Humes claims he sees the body at 6:45-7pm... so again Scott... who was in the casket Greer, Kellerman, O'Neil and Sibert bring in if Humes is already with the body?

At 7:17, the casket is brought in... where does the MDW get its casket if its already in the morgue while JFK was already there having xrays taken?

Scott... do you not get the situation with O'Connor? He was there prior to 7pm... he was asked to leave between 7-8pm for the "pre-autopsy xrays" and "examination"

That's why the stories seem to overlap...

btw - you may wish to look a bit more deeply into the FBI's location and "seeing" the body come out of the casket between 7:17 and 8pm... you might be quite surprised how much CYA was done so Hoover didn't find out where they really were for most of the pre 8pm time period... these FBI men do finally admit they too were removed from the ante-room before the casket was opened, and NOT allowed into the morgue prior to 8pm...

and there is quite a bit more than "eyewitness accounts" - you're on the right track at least... and maybe when you review ALL of the testimony and correlate it... you will see that the surgeon general of the navy and the commander of Bethesda were in on the movement and alteration of JFK from the moment he arrived....

How again does Humes see a body in the morgue, xrays are taken and processed, all while the FBI/SS brings in the ambulance casket at 6:17 and the MDW does the entire thing again at 8pm?

Can you connect the dots for us and show us there was nothing happening to JFK's body at the time.. you know - chain of possession of the BEST EVIDENCE... the body, tells alot about the autopsy and and those involved in the movement of said body...

You are of the opinion that if ROSE did the autopsy in Dallas, the autopsy medical record would be the same as what we got from Bethesda?