David Josephs

Have you read my Mexico work at CTKA Tommy?

Oswald's MOS was Aviation Electronics Operator (aka radar operator)

yes indeed it was... yet Folsom Exhibit #1 p7 states that his prefernece of duty and his recommended Duty assignment is "Aircraft Maintenance and Repair"

Page 3 of the same exhibit shows his primary duty was Aviation Electronics Operator (AvnElectOper)

I can't tell if Tommy here is being sarcastic or sincere since he seems to be more concerned with commenting on rather than researching the topic.

The real question to ask is why the Russians allowed Marina to leave so easily... Sometime we need to remember to look at the events in a FORWARD chronology without the benefit of hindsight.

What was known of Oswald and by whom leading up to these events and how does that fit into the evidence of their actions, is to me a more fruitful way to look at the evidence. What we know now based on whatever "evidence" we've seen cannot be attributed to the miondset of those in it day to day at the time.

State, FBi and CIA along with IN&S/Customs were together for a lot of the evidence creation. If Oswald was part of a spying program one would think we'd make sure our own people didn't mess it up for him.

Continue doing what you're doing Jon... you have a great mind and ask wonderful questions....

Tommy is just Tommy, sunshine and all...

Wow. I read the EF article you linked, and it doesn't inspire confidence. It is very poorly sourced (Elzie Glaze??) and poorly reasoned and written. It does not support the original statement you made about the TSBD.

I am put in mind of one of Mark Lane's observations: "There are enough genuine mysteries about this thing, that we don't need to be inventing new ones."

Stephen,

Would you please explain why you believe Mr. Glaze is not a reliable source... can you impeach the thrust of the accusations?

You may also want to read Armstrong's work on Ruby at harveyandlee.net - it appears that putting Oswald into the TSBD may have been designed as extra leverage for those who were involved in illiegal activity there to go along to get along. But that's just speculation on my part.

I'm fully prepared to admit I referred to something that did not prove its case - yet I have yet to see enough rebuttal not to blieve what is presented.

Is impersonation always false?

An entertainer may impersonate (imitate) a well-known person and be quite accurate and true in the portrayal. This lawful.

An individual may fraudulently (falsely) impersonate another for purposes of obtaining financial or other gain or evading the law. This is unlawful, generally speaking.

Oswald was fraudulently impersonated over the telephone in Mexico City, apparently, and possibly impersonated in person there also. Perhaps the CIA was making use of Oswald's identity. If so, the use could have been in furtherance of legitimate CIA activities in MC. Does anyone know for sure? It isn't necessary to assume the impersonation of Oswald in MC was tied to the assassination. The story of Oswald's alleged bus trip to MC was tied to the assassination. But clumsily. The material found tucked in a book by Ruth Paine, which indicated Oswald had traveled south of the border by bus, she didn't allegedly find until well into 1964.

I admire the work David Josephs has done on the Mexico City affair.

At the end of the day, I think the affair is a distraction, does nothing to show Oswald (Marina's husband) was working for some intelligence service, and is a dead end insofar as the JFK assassination is concerned.

Thanks Jon... and yes, it is possible that a back story was being created for Oswald to give him more credibility related to his FPCC infultration work... As you spend time with the evidence, the dismissal of Odio and the tiny amount of space she is given in the WCR leads me to believe she and her sister were truthful about the man Ruby killed being at their home. Add to this the BS the WCR and FBI tried with Hall, Seymour and Howard and I'm pretty convinced the sisters told the truth.

If Bill Simpich is correct, then Mexico had little to do with the Assassination.

If this is the case, then why is there so much mystery related to his going and coming?

On Sept 25th he is basically an innocent man taking a bus trip to Mexico. The FBI is able to find literally every possible person who may have been onthe bus with Oswald from the records, just not that Oswald was on the bus from the records... so we get literally 10's of thousands of pages on the Mexico trip itself, all to hide the fact he didn't go the way the FBI says he did.

From Part 2a:

Returning to the 25th, there is no mention of the transportation needed to get Oswald from the downtown bus station area back to his PO Box or to the Winn Dixie and then back again to leave on the 12:20pm bus to Houston – the ONLY bus that fits the WCR description of his travel. The problem the WCR could not overcome yet chose to add in their narrative on p.731 posted above is Oswald’s evening call to the Twiford’s in Houston and the affidavit of Mrs. Twiford.

As we read on page 731 of the WCR above, according to Marina he left NOLA by bus – the fact that Marina had already left NOLA the day before should give you some clue as to the depths of investigation performed to determine this “fact”. With Mexico City his final destination, Oswald could have (and should have) purchased the three part ticket to take him from NOLA to Houston, Houston to Laredo and from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City. Yet for ANYONE to reach Houston in time to catch the 2:35am Houston to Laredo CONTINENTAL bus – which is the first place there is ANY evidence that “an” Oswald purchased a ticket for transportation to Mexico – they had to leave New Orleans on the Sept 25th CONTINENTAL 12:20pm bus. There are NO OTHER CHOICES. This conclusion was arrived at by process of elimination as there remains no evidence to support Oswald or anyone claiming to be Oswald boarding and traveling on that bus. In fact, even the 12:20pm bus was not originally discussed as an option.

Oswald had to be on the September 25th 12:20pm Continental Trailways bus from New Orleans to Houston regardless of the fact that there is:

•No record of his purchasing a ticket for the New Orleans to Houston portion of the trip on Continental Trailways bus #5121 at 12:20pm.

•No record of his boarding a bus, presenting a ticket, or checking luggage

•No record of any bus drivers recalling the uniqueness of a New Orleans to Mexico City 3-part ticket and when shown photos of Oswald, no recognition of that man being on the only bus from New Orleans to Houston

Hang on a second now… a 12:20pm bus to Houston huh... On Dec 16, 1963 Mr. Major Green of the CONTINENTAL TRAILWAYS bus line stated that there were two (2) buses that traveled from New Orleans to Laredo. (One might assume that if Oswald was going all the way to Mexico he would buy a bus ticket for the entire trip as opposed to simply traveling to Houston and buying yet another ticket there for the rest of the trip.) These buses were the 4:40pm and 8:15pm Sept 25th buses arriving in Houston the next day, the 26th, at 2:15am and 7:00am, respectively. (WCD183 ) The 2:15am arrival would have been just in time for the 2:35am from Houston to Laredo… The FBI looked into the 4:40pm bus, its driver and passengers with no indication that Oswald was aboard.

Paul - I recall Simpich saying he was 'agnostic' on whether Oswald was ever in MC. Is that you memory as well?

Simpich has given us his very valuable opinion that Morales is the likely suspect for arranging the Oswald impersonation. Paul, you seem to have no trouble melding that with your Walker theory, despite the fact that there is zero evidence (anyone feel free to correct me on this) that Morales intersected with Walker, or even Banister. Meanwhile, we know for a certain fact that Morales worked for Phillips, and Angleton, and was the top operations officer in the CIA at that time, working out of Miami Station, no doubt well known to Shackley, Helms, JC King and the like.

Graves makes an excellent point, and comes up with a possibility I had not thought of. My suspicion, which Simpich never responded to when I queried him, was that the mole hunt was a misdirection, providing cover for Angleton and Goodpasture who themselves arranged the impersonation of Oswald. No one would ever suspect them if they left a paper trail suggesting that they were mystified at who impersonated Oswald. Graves suggests that the paper trail was laid after the fact. Perhaps we are saying the same thing.

Paul Trejo ran with the discovery by Simpich, (credit to Scott and Newman as well) jumping immediately to the conclusion that the mole hunt proves that top level CIA brass were innocent, and that Morales must have gone rogue. Somehow this lead to Walker in Paul's mind. I argued with Trejo in the past that Morales was a loyal and trusted operational CIA officer, high up the chain, and that his possible involvement in setting up Oswald in MC, by linking him to Kostikov, implicated those above him in the chain if command. So like Graves I am suspicious of the mole hunt itself. It's just another layer of the onion in my opinion.

Bill said the same to me since his concentration was on the operation within those few days. The man Ruby killed was identified by both Odio sisters as the man at their house when the FBI puts him on unnamed buses without evidence.

Kostikov was an assumption made by OBYEDKOV on the Oct 1 call transcript. It was repeated by CIA to Scott who writes theOct 16th memo which is CC'd to IN&S and makes its way to HOSTY who writes a memo on the 18th back to Hoover.

I remain skeptical about the mole hunt since I feel that Phillips/Choaden was the main player in this charade. That Phillips and Alvarado are connected is indicative of this possibility. I think Phillips provides Alvarado with the story he is to tell as either a Phase 1 story yet his insistence that it occurred on Sept 18th is very puzzling.

I post the documents which name Alvarado as a CIA source and the rest of his "evidence" in my articles -

Since when do we need to BUMP a 3 minute old thread Tommy?

I replied above your BUMP

Because you obviously didn't read it the first time?

You are insufferable sometimes, Jo Jo. Not sayin' that you are full of SH!T or that you've got your head stuck up your XXX. Just sayin'.

I'll make it just a little bit easier for you by giving you a little hint as to what I wrote in it.

LADILLINGER was Barbara J. XXXXXXX. Now go read it.

Get it?

--Tommy

I read your post and replied, in 3 minutes with a reference as to what LADILLINGER did at the Mexico Station - much more important than her name imo.

You wrote "Mandell" at 2:06, I replied at 2:09 and you BUMP at 2:10.... get a grip on yourself.

What does her name have to do with Oct 1 being a lie related to the Mystery Man photos and the entire BS Mexico evidence for his being there ?

Since when do we need to BUMP a 3 minute old thread Tommy?

I replied above your BUMP

BTW Thomas,

The CIA claims that Oswald was at the Cuban Embassy on the 28th making the call to the Russian Embassy based on the interrogation of Duran "corroborating" the tapes.

"No source then at our disposal had ever actually seen Lee OSWALD while he was in Mexico" - Jack Whitten

(thanks Bill Simpich https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=50149&relPageId=10)

And yeah, Goodpasture just said it was a simple mistake... yet that does not account for the Oct 8th initial memo identifying the 1st from LADILLINGER

"LA Dillinger" is indeed a pseudonym (not cryptonym)
by pdscott on Sun, Nov 27, 2005, 2:54 PM GMT (#1160)
"LA Dillinger" is indeed a pseudonym (not cryptonym)for the Soviet case officer in the Mexico City CIA Station. And this document, MEXI 6453, is dated Oct 8, 1963, not 1965.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/marysdb/showRec.do?id=5650

Tommy,

I believe {a} Oswald never traveled to Mexico City. {b} Any impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City was false.

Mr. Tid,

Every impersonation is, by definition, "false" isn't it.

I guess you're saying that the two impersonations of Oswald over the phone in Mexico City (on Saturday, September 28 and on Monday, October 1), never happened but were only manufactured on paper after the assassination?

If you're right, I wonder why Mexico City's Anne Goodpasture, known for her meticulous work, would go to the trouble of making the untruthful statement that a photograph taken of an American-looking man outside either the Cuban Consulate or the Soviet Embassy -- can't remember which right now -- was taken on October 1 instead of when it was really taken, October 2 ? And equally puzzling is why she would mention that particular photograph in a cable about Lee Henry (or was it Harvey?) Oswald in the same cable and juxtaposed in such a way as to suggest (without actually saying it) that this dude, our famous "Mexico City Mystery Man," was the same guy who had called the Soviet Embassy and identified himself as "Oswald, O-S-W-A-L-D" who had spoken with a "dark" Russian Embassy official. By the name of Kostin, or something like that?

https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Valeriy_Kostikov_and_Comrade_Kostin

--Tommy

Thomas - you may also benefit from a reading of my work at CTKA....

On October 8th the initial report says the photos are from 1216 and 1222 on OCT 1. Bill S. told me who LADILLINGER was but I can't find it now. Since Goodpasture basically tells us that she has the previous day's intercepts on her desk for prep for Scott and/or Phillips the delay from the 3rd to the 8th is not believeable. Seems to me that the Oct 8th memo was park of the project Bill eludes to in his work and HAD to be Oct 1st to match the phone calls.

LATER, when the FBI was trying to create an itinerary for the travel, we dont know if they knew the photos were actually taken the next day...

Oswald was said to have left on the 2pm FRONTERA bus on Oct 2nd because the first Mystery Man photo was taken Oct 2 at 12:22pm. When it was found that bus did not work and that the Mexican Presidential staff had someone CREATE this document, another bus had to be found.

This was the Del Norte 8:30am bus on Oct 2nd.

Could not even be considered Oswald if the photo was taken AFTER he left, right?

Plus, if they were going to connect the photo to the phone call, there were no calls on the 2nd... yet there are records of an Oswald call on the 3rd... and this same man on the 15th. Yet the evidence continues to claim that Oswald was there....

David, years ago I obtained all the Chicago police, Secret Service and related files on Vallee that I could...including hundreds of pages of ongoing annual inquires the SS made on him simply because

he had been a person of interest in 63. Beyond that I looked into the HSCA review of various claims about Vallee/Oswald and found they had chased after claims that did not prove out. Beyond that

I made contact with Vallee's relatives who had remained interested in the stories about him and got a lot more details about his activities after his military separation, his move on from Chicago to

visit his father in LA, etc.

In doing all that I found a lot about how he came to the attention of the Secret Service, how he was investigated and the process by which he was picked up...however I was unable to find anything

that corroborated a number of the more sensational elements of what had been written and totally unable to find any of the training activities or even contacts with exiles. He was certainly

ultra right and opposed to anything Communist and outspoken about Castro, Cuba, JFK etc but in terms of doing much more than just talking - I couldn't find it. He was a major subject of

November Patriots and I've been interested in him for a long time so anything new or corroborative would be appreciated.. Larry

Thanks for that Larry...

Curious, if Ossie was not set-up for Dallas do you suppose we would have had as much access to his Marines and Atsugi days? Plus, if the SS was destroying Oct-Nov documents while much of the Oswald evidence was created for the purpose of incrimination, can we assume that anything related to Vallee and the CIA would be "lost" to history?

If the Chicago hit went down I get the impression we would have known all about Vallee's USMC days and probably when he got his first pubic hair. As long as there was a mountain of crap inwhich to hide what little truth was offered.

It's akin to the fact that ther FBI could not find a way for Oswald from New Orleans to Houston in late September. It never happened so they backdated a Sept 1964 report to December and just created the evidence for a bus which COULD have made the trip on time. I truly believe that we are allowed to see evidence that has probably been prepared for us to see, especially on the critical issues, and is never going to reveal the working of the events, only the conspiracy which shrouds it.

No one is going to believe the crazy ex-Marine who says he was in Japan. Yet in this crazy JFK world I tend to take the word of the Patsy over those setting him up and investigating him...

Have you really been able to see the Rosters/Records for the Marines in Japan during those years like Armstrong and others found re: Oswald and made public?

Again, I think the records we were given from the military via the FBI were designed to merge two Oswalds into one. CE1961's 5-weeks of basic training is a conflct that cannot be explained away especially in light of Allen Feld's CE1962 statements.

If I do come across anything solid I will definitely let you know

DJ

David, could you share any material you have seen that corroborates the recruitment of Vallee by the CIA and his involvement in

training Cuban exiles in New York....any time frames for either would also be helpful...

-- Larry

I sent a note to Edwin yet he is terribly backlogged on replies.

Are you of the opinion that Edwin was wrong about this? Using uncorroborated sources?

I will do a little searching around and see what I can turn up on my own...

DJ

(Edit: it appears it came from the mouth of Vallee - I'd be interested to know what Edwin did to authenticate this tidbit.... be nice to find this as well: Secret Service master file on Thomas Arthur Vallee, memorandum of Nov. 6, 1963 by Special Agent Thomas D. Strong, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 2 (JFK Document 008581).)

Vallee told an investigative reporter that he had been assigned by the Marines to a U-2 base in Japan, where Vallee would have come under the control of the CIA, which commanded the U-2 program, just as Oswald would come under the CIA’s control as a radar operator at another U-2 base in Japan.

Vallee also told the reporter that he had worked with the CIA at a camp near Levittown, Long Island, helping to train Cuban exiles to assassinate Fidel Castro. Oswald participated in a CIA training camp with Cuban exiles by Lake Pontchartrain, near New Orleans.

CTKA.net and then look for my name in the main box of new articles.

When you're done, let me know so we can have a more detailed discussion.

There are over 200 pages in these 5 articles with the evidence embedded with links...

Take your time as I start in the early summer of 1963 and carry us thru Oct 3rd by the end of the 5th article...

Just a thought, is attaching a photo (one that the FBI could not find a location for anywhere in Mexico City - just like that bracelet)

to a piece of paper that difficult to fake? You really need to take another step or two with the evidence before you declare VICTORY.

My premise remains that the Evidence IS the Conspiracy... Azcue says that the man he spoke to who claimed to be Oswald was not the man Ruby killed...

Discussing a photo on a piece of paper before even attempting to authenticate it when we already have a direct statement as to the ID of the man is to me grasping at straws.

You don't suppose Azcue sees a photo of Oswald prior to the 1975 interview? That he does not see him in Nov 1963 and knows right away is was not the man he met?

Read my work first Paul... then we can talk.

Thanks

DJ

http://www.ctka.net/2014-Josephs/Josephs_Mexico%20City_Part%201.html is a link to the first article yet you'll still need to go back to the main page for the rest.

I hope you enjoy the read...

Well Jon, that's what the CIA and FBI found as well...

Some students of the JFK assassination believe Oswald was set up to take the fall for the JFK assassination by his handler. The handler being a CIA case officer.

Oswald in the custody of the DPD opined he was being picked on because he had lived in the USSR. Suggesting he was trying to broadcast, "They're trying to frame me because they think I'm a commie." We've been told Oswald asked for John Abt as his lawyer. Abt apparently had represented communists.

There's a mis-match here. Oswald evinces nothing suggesting he's been sold down the river. Students of the assassination believe he was. I side with Oswald.

There was 12 hours of interrogation over 3 days yet only 5 little pages of notes? Fritz even says that after all this the FBI knows more about Oswald than they did. We do not have a good avenue into knowing what he said during those interviews.

I happen to agree with the notion that Oswald truly believed he was going to be helped by his intelligence associates and most definitely not killed.

Many assume that the call to John Hurt in VA, a cut-out, sealed his fate for reaching out to his intel handlers.

I truly do not believe that this Oswald knew the details of the assassination and was played to be one possible patsy starting in New Orleans in May 1963. (Arthur Valle was Chicago's)

He was handing out Pro Castro lit while working with Anti-Castro intelligence personnel - most likely to conitnue the attack upon FPCC by gathering the names of those interested in the cause. that Oswald played games with the addresses on the flyers suggests to me he had more than one master.

One has to make speculate on what occurs to Oswald if JFK is killed in Chicago? Was Reily, Bannister, Ferrie etc in NOLA that summer really patsy planning? From My POV each action within the assets of the CIA/FBI would be played for many reasons. I believe that Oswald was put into a position to do the work he was asked to do while also leaving the breadcrumbs of self incrimination.

"Use him if we need to"...

Jon, when the SS tells the advance team that there are no threats to JFK in Dallas, one has to simply pause at the absurdity of it.

The TSBD was notorious for running guns and drugs - it was watched by the FBI, infultrated by many.

Most every contingency had been considered... the TSBD staff involved in these activities would most easily be "coerced" into incriminating Oswald.

William Shelley and Roy Truly remain very suspicious characters with Shelley POSSIBLY having been in NOLA with Oswald:

With Chicago only being a 3 weeks before and only a week after Oswald starts at the TSBD... one has to think that placing Oswald in the TSBD was the first step of the backup plan should Chicago not go off...

FWIW my $.02

DJ

From Edwin Black's The Chicago Plot:

THE PATSY

Meanwhile, two other agents had been following up a highly suspicious yet bum lead. The

man's name was Thomas Arthur Vallee, a 30-year-old ex-Marine classified extreme paranoid

schizophrenic by military doctors. Vallee worked as an apprentice at IPP Litho-plate at 625

West Jackson. As the patsy, he was perfect—as perfect for the Chicago assassination plot as

Lee Harvey Oswald was for the Dallas assassination plot.

Vallee was born and raised in Chicago. Like Oswald, he joined the Marines in the mid-50s

during the Korean War period. Like Oswald Vallee was assigned to a U-2 base in Japan;

Oswald at Atsugi, Vallee at Camp Otsu. The cover reference for the U-2 project at these

bases was Joint Technical Advisory Group (JTAG). Since the CIA exerted a strong presence

at these two bases, they were prime recruitment stations.

Both Vallee and Oswald appear to have been recruited by the CIA for "black missions" or

otherwise unsavory, personally discrediting assignments. In Oswald's case, at the height of

the Cold War, he was instructed and helped to defect to Russia. With him he carried top

secret radar codes. Oswald's mission, probably unbeknownst to him, may have been to

reveal this disinformation for some complex CIA intelligence stratagem. Warren

commission testimony documents that all these radar codes had to be revised because of all

the Oswald's defection.

Vallee was recruited about the same time to train members of a fiercely anti-Castro guerrilla

group. Objective: the assassination of Fidel Castro. Training locale: in and around

Levittown, Long Island.

...I agree with David Josephs: Oswald did not travel to Mexico City.

Assuming Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City, can one be sure the impersonation was for the purpose of setting him up for JFK's murder?

Further question: Is it possible that the story of Oswald going to MC and the story of his being impersonated there were cooked up post-assassination?

Well, Jon, my question to you and David is this: WHAT IN THE WORLD CONVINCES YOU THAT OSWALD WAS NOT IN MEXICO CITY, WHEN YOU ARE FACED WITH THE FACTS OF THE LOPEZ REPORT?

On top of his, you have the FREE book by Bill Simpich, State Secret (2014), which explains in great detail the impersonation of Oswald and Duran in Mexico City. Have you neglected to read this important new book? There's no excuse -- it's free (on the Mary Ferrell site) and it's by a stellar author and genuine authority on the topic.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul -

Lopez himself tells us that his investigation started with the assumption that the WCR got it right about Oswald being in Mexico. He never bothered to challenge it.

There is no evidence from Mexico City that connects our Oswald to anything that occurred there... again my friend, post the evidence if you have some... I've looked.

The man on the 27th was not identified as Oswald by Duran. She states he never returned after that. The 28th is a complete lie and is used to corroborate the Oct 1st transcript where this person finally states his name, "this is LEE OSWALD CALLING" except the FBI heard these tapes and knew it was not Oswald. The Tarasoff's connect the calls since the man's voice is the same - this does not prove the person saying he is Oswald was Oswald, just that the voices were the same.

Have you read any of my CTKA Mexico City work? I come to find that the TRAVEL aspect has not been addressed by many at all and not in much depth excpet maybe Armstrong and even he does not mention the key sources and what they did. I am hoping to finish the last article and then re-edit the entire 250 pages into a source document on the Mexico City Travel Evidence and why it shows that it was created either cover the fact an impersonator did make the trip in a different way, or that no trip was made at all while the man impersonating Oswald in Mexico and the "bus" rider have nothing to do with each other.

I've spoken at length with Bill Simpich. For HIS PURPOSES the impersonation and the real Oswald have nothing in common. Bill's focus is on the operation that caused the name Oswald to be brought up in these phone intercepts in the first place and what the CIA, FBI and Mexicans were doing to each other.

Paul - reread what you said about Bill's book. He explains the IMPERSONATION, not that Oswald was really in Mexico City. That a person was there on the 27th is not argued yet the evidence shows that was the only day Duran interacted with an Oswald and this Oswald was not the man Ruby killed. Odio, at the same time, and her sister tells us Oswald was at her home the evening of Sept 27th. There is no doubt Ozzie is not in Mexico but someone pretending to be him. This person could NOT have arrived on the manner the FBI offers - so they are hiding something.

Duran says this man was about 5'3" and 120lbs...

Azcue tells us the man e fought with and the man Ruby killed are not the same person

(Blakey-Azcue interview, p. 18; all of Azcue's statements are translated from the Spanish).

BLAKEY. When you saw the passport, did you see any difference between the picture in the passport and the person standing in front of you?

AZCUE. No, no. . . . You see, it's usually the secretary that deals with all these matters. But the difference I noted was between the man who came to the consulate and the one that was assassinated [by Jack Ruby]

Better yet Paul... post anything you think proves he was there

I think the reason the autopsy results supported the single bullet theory had nothing to do with shot timing. It was simply to remove any hint of a shot from the front in order to support the Lone Nut Theory which became the dominant narrative well before the final version of the autopsy report was delivered at 6PM on Sunday.

Appreciate the opinion Ollie. Yet if you look closely at the autopsy report http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0501b.htm that conclusion is not part of it. The SBT only comes into being in April 1964. Until then it was 3 shots, 3 hits, with the back to front torso thru the neck shot just that, a shot that went thru JFK. The theory is that Humes' notes and initial report more closely mirrored the Sibert/O'Neill report - a shallow non-traversing back wound with potentially a fragment exiting the throat and therefore had to disappear in favor of a transiting wound...

The real question becomes how, in January 1964 does Rankin refer to an autopsy report he obviously has read, but which does not exist in the evidence. ooops!

Mr. Rankin:

Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.

We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.

So that how it could turn, and --

Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went in a finger's length. (Boggs obviously read the Sibert/O'Neill report and not this version of the autopsy)

Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said

The work Humes did on the skull, the work Ebersole does on the xrays is related to the reversal of a frontal shot to a rear one... the shot to the rear torso of JFK is consistent with a single shooter from behind.

If the autopsy in January says the above, when did the autopsy released in Sept 1964 in the WCR come into being?

DJ

OK, David, once again by the numbers:

(1.0) I have no problem with the fact that McGeorge Bundy called Air Force One on the afternoon that JFK was murdered, while LBJ was on board, to indicate the "Lone Nut" theory.

OK

(1.1) That occurred at 2:38pm (slightly before 3pm) CST. That could easily correspond to Dr. Wrone's claim that J. Edgar Hoover came up with the "Lone Nut" alibi in Washington D.C. before 3pm CST.

So you think Hoover was in the Situation room (I don’t recall him being referred to on the tapes) or had spoken to Bundy first? And Bundy would take his word at 3pm on 11/22 - why?

(1.2) The matching context is that McGeorge Bundy called from Washington DC -- the location where Hoover was. The theory was Hoover's, and evidently LBJ heard it first through Bundy.

Again, how does this “theory” get to Bundy from Hoover? – any type of corroborating evidence beyond they were both in DC at the time would be helpful. Getting LBJ into the picture would be nice too - and please dont tell me he was in DC too... as he was on AF-1.

(2.0) As for the autopsy issue, I'm confident that LBJ left that mess to the FBI. It was the problem of the FBI to manipulate all evidence in the JFK case that might tend to contradict Hoover's "Lone Nut" scenario.

Sorry to disagree here but the FBI was kept out of the autopsy room for almost an hour after the 7:17 entry (which says nothing about the 6:35 casket flown to Bethesda by... Wehle and the Military. Hoover was not in a position to tell Galloway or Burkley a thing – unless you have something to offer which substantiates this claim.

(2.1) The FBI would make it very clear that there could be no evidence of "accomplices" or "conspiracy." Nothing could be allowed to contradict the "Lone Nut" theory.

Agreed – their role, once told that no conspiracy evidence would be accepted – was to produce the incriminating evidence where ever they could. (In my final chapter on Mexico we will learn that during the month of November the FBI tried in vain to find anyone from over 22 of their “communist watching” informants in Mexico City who was aware of “Oswald” acting a communist.

btw – Maydon, the man who supposedly stamped an Oswald’s Visa coming into Mexico said he was with 2 women and another man in a car. When he left CHAPA’s stamp is on the visa yet “Vieja en Auto” is not on this form. The FM-11 only takes info from these forms. US consul CASH, as I posted above, claims that the visa did not state the mode of transportation.

When you read my work you wil find that CASH is at the Nuevo Laredo Mexi Immigration Office when Kline calls Tijerina. He just happens to have the info Kline needs which we find does not match the original forms they came from. If an “Oswald” was driven into Mexico by Hall and Howard while our Oswald was meeting with Odio and traveling with 2 Cubans, we need more than just someone’s word. There are even more records kept for cars entering Mexico City so if they did enter that way, there would be even more forms to deal with falsifying.

(3.0) LBJ was under the control of nobody. LBJ simply trusted the FBI to do "whatever" to ensure the construction of the "Lone Nut" theory for the American Public.

Disagree Paul. LBJ was certainly not at the top of that food chain by any means. And to think that Bundy did not simply expand his power and control during this time is to dismiss history. Bundy was a direct connect to the power elite. Harriman, McCloy, Dulles, Bush and behind them the money.

I don’t think he was afraid of investigating a Communist conspiracy, I think he wanted to stay away from any conspiracy discussion. You really must consider Alvarado’s role, story and connection to the CIA to understand the Phase 1 and Phase 2 aspect of the cover-up.

(3.1) Again, David, the "Lone Nut" theory of OSWALD was by the JFK COVER-UP Team, and it was diametrically opposed to the "FPCC Communist" theory OSWALD by the JFK KILL Team.

Had you considered that the PHASE 1 elements were to insure that no one dug too deeply into ANY elements of the “conspiracy”? The false story of the Mexico City Oswald as of 11/23 made it impossible not to consider the communist plot. The State Dept virtually jumped at the chance to brand him a communist – in fact I have an 11/22 memo from FBI SA Heitman to SAC, Dallas stating:

“CLARK ANDERSON…, called at 7:16pm and advised the US Amb, Mex City felt that there was probably more to this matter than simply a “nut” shooting the president” This is the “deep snow” memo. This is the first mention of “nut” in any documents I’ve seen.

If Hoover had forced the LONE NUT theory at 3pm... do you think this helps your case by assuming that Anderson tells MANN what Hoover tells him (but when) that it's a LONE NUT and this is Mann's reaction? (We just need to prove that Hoover and Anderson speak prior to this cable)

(3.2) By promoting the "Lone Nut" theory along with Hoover and the FBI, President Johnson was opposing the JFK Kill Team, who wanted to (i) invade Cuba by killing Fidel Castro; and (ii) roll-back all Civil Rights.

You seem to be forgetting the entire point of this… to kill JFK. Cuba was basically worthless to the US other than being leverage to try and go after Russia. You get this right Paul? LeMay and the others only saw Cuba as the step to a first strike against Russia. I mean you obviously don’t believe it just ends with the US invading Cuba, right?

(3.3) As history shows, LBJ did neither of those things.

Correct, the MICC was not going to get their war with Russia, but they were sure as hell not going to let Vietnam fall – at least that was the story. The expenditure of weapons, men and machinery along with the lure of billions in black drug money made Vietnam much more attractive to the CIA and by direct extension the MICC than Cuba could ever be. This was NEVER about Cuba Paul. The history and picture was much, much bigger than that.

(4.0) Respectfully, David, Hoover had a lot more power over Bethesda and Parkland than you give him credit for.

Proof please. The FBI was barely allowed in the room at Bethesda and can you name the FBI agent in charge at Parkland for me please… I see there was Hosty and Shanklin. Can you tell us what control Shanklin had over Kellerman and Greer and the rest of the SS… thanks

Mr. STERN. Do you know why you were sent to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HOSTY. No. We were just told they wanted four cars to proceed to Parkland Hospital to stand by for further orders.

(4.1) But it wasn't on a personal basis -- the FBI, by virtue of its special authority in the USA has a lot of weight and credit with the US Military, with the CIA, with the Federal Government, and so also with all their subordinates.

Ok… but that doesn’t actually say or prove anything. The FBI hated the CIA, especially after Mexico, so while a nice blanket statement – you need to actually prove any of these relationships had anything to do with these theories and the timing.

(4.2) The FBI exerted tremendous influence at both Parkland and Bethesda -- probably through the Secret Service and various US Military lieutenants.

PROOF PLEASE. Cite something Paul – we are looking for evidence of what you claim, not opinions.

(4.3) Yet their purpose, IMHO, was to enforce Hoover's (and now LBJ's) mandate that anything that contradicted the "Lone Nut" scenario had to be squashed.

So you think that Sibert or O’Neill told Burkley or Galloway to do what they did ? – to tell their subordinates to do what they did? The FBI was in contact with the SS during the autopsy. We have the Belmont to Tolson memo related to 9:18pm that night mentioning the 2 separate bullets the SS was aware of, the one in hand and the one behind JFK’s ear.

Please provide anything that corroborates the FBI had influence over the goings on at Bethesda. From my POV the SS, Rowley and the Navy/Military was in charge of everything that night. The FBI got the table scraps so-to-say but this was well after Bundy and the Sit room declared it a non-conspiracy

(4.4) Naturally this would compromise the medical data more than any other data.

Of course. Yet the FBI had little if anything to do with the autopsy info. The SS took control of it all while the FBI only got copies and reports after the fact. Other than Sibert and O’Neill there were no other FBI agents there.

Can you please be specific about what control you feel was exerted and provide some proof.

(4.5) The JFK X-rays had to be hidden for decades -- because they showed damage from at least six bullets, some of which were Full-metal-jacket, and some of which were Frangible bullets. Proof of "accomplices."

Speculation at best Paul. If Humes did what we think he did, we have no idea from the evidence left us what happened in Dealey plaza.

(4.6) The JFK brain had to "disappear" -- because it showed fragments of multiple bullets -- both FMJ and Frangible.

And that has what to do with the Hoover-started-the-Lone-Nut thing? Furthermore I disagree… the brain had to go because it showed the tell tale signs of extensive and poorly done surgery. I’ve covered this in other posts. The brain does not just FALL OUT of a skull. I’ve posted the craniotomy steps involved and since there was “no damage to the left hemisphere” all the attachments of Brain to sac to Skull were still intact… even is some of them were damaged… the entire spinal cord was surgically cut…. All you need do is search my name and Humes to find the conflicts.

(4.7) This was not the doing of the JFK Killers -- they wanted OSWALD to look like a part of a Communist Conspiracy. The multiple bullet holes would have been praised by them.

That’s a nice speculation unless the entire idea was to scare the puppets into covering it all up. As I said, the goal was to kill JFK, find and kill scapegoat and free up the MICC to do as they pleased. Planes were on the way to Cuba and called back… Another scare tactic. Presidents come and go my friend. The Military is eternal and hadbeen doing intelligence well before the CIA, OSS or SIS ever came along.

(4.8) On the contrary, manipulation of the medical evidence was done by the highest levels of the US Government for purposes of National Security. LBJ himself mandated it. How could they possibly refuse?

Proof please. LBJ was just as scared of being killed as anyone. If you feel that LeMay and the other JCS were going to do what LBJ told them – I think you might want to rethink that.

(5.0) In no way did the JCS or the "military-industrial complex" stand above LBJ, Hoover and CIA. Clearly the US needs the military to enforce its laws and treaties -- however, that does not prove that they ever refused to follow civilian orders according to the Constitution.

Quite naïve there Paul… believe what you will

(5.1) The US Military also cooperated with the FBI and the whole Federal Government in Hoover's "Lone Nut" theory which had now become LBJ's mandate for National Security.

(5.2) How could they possibly refuse...according to the Constitution?

(5.3) I repeat -- Hoover came up with the "Lone Nut" theory before 3pm CST, and told LBJ (evidently through McGeorge Bundy) and LBJ thought it was a GREAT IDEA. LBJ quickly adopted it and presented it as his own opinion.

(5.4) It was not a PLANNED idea. It was entirely UNPLANNED. But it was a matter of National Security. Without it, the USA would probably have burst in to riots in the streets -- at the peak of the Cold War.

(5.5.) LBJ gave the order. The whole Federal Government obeyed their Commander in Chief. FBI, SS, CIA, JCS, State Department -- everybody.

(5.6) The US Military *always* -- repeat *always* -- takes orders from its funding source -- the US Congress and the Commander-in-Chief.

(6.0) By all the evidence I can see, David, it was only Guy Banister and Company in NOLA that painted Oswald as a Cuban/Russian conspirator.

(6.1) Nor did this 1963 phenomenon start on October the 8th. Rather, it started on April the 14th.

Whatever that means Paul…

With regards to these other opinions you offer, fine. I simply ask that you provide a little authenticated evidence in support of your ideas. That you believe the Military of post 11-22 took orders from LBJ is quite the joke. You also think LBJ ran the Vietnam war too?

(7.0) Nobody seriously doubts the Mexico City episode anymore -- not after the late CIA release of of The Lopez Report in 2003.

Paul, IDK what that means. There is not a shred of proof that the Lee Harvey Oswald who was shot by Ruby was ever in Mexico City. The evidence that attempts to get him there and back is all FBI bullsh!t which changed over time as the impossibility of what was offered as his travel was found to be impossible.

As for the man at the embassies, it most certainly was not Oswald per the two people who saw this person Duran and Azcue or the FBI agents who heard the tapes in DC

As for the calls on Saturday the 28^th… they were NOT Oswald or Duran. Oswald was NOT allowed into these embassies on the weekend and as MANN said, other than the embassy/consulates there is no evidence that Oswald was anywehre else in Mexico on any of these other days...

As for the photo of Oswald on Oct 1^st – it was taken October 2nd and lied about by Goodpasture. The Mystery Man photo in the WCR is from Oct 4th.

If you like, CTKA has 5 of the 6 articles I’ve done on the Mexico City travel and stay evidence. The final article is in the works now to chronologically take us thru what was known from Oct 8^th on. At the core of this is whether Hoover is the architect of the LONE NUT scenario with the insistence of LBJ. If that be the case it would have to be in response to being alerted to the fact that Bundy, the MICC and the loyal NSC staffers had decided there was no conspiracy.

I am always open to evidence which can sway opinion. If you can offer these in support of the above assertions, I would be glad to read and discuss them with you.

DJ

This is yet another ANDERSON to HOOVER communication which I address in my final Mexico Article. Between 10/18 and 11/22 the FBI has been searching for any sign of Oswald in Mexico City.

The line about "last known information" is a lie. On the 16th of October Win sends a note to Ambassador MANN with a CC to IN&S who in turn tells Hosty who in turn informs FBI HQ. The Oct 16th cable contains the Kostikov info and info about the 28th.

When/IF you find any proof that our Oswald was in Mexico I would greatly appreciate the heads up... I've been doing nothing but Mexico for the last few months and everything I;ve found points to this being a complete set-up for reasons that probably had nothing to do with JFK until it needed to be.

On that thread from Nov 2014 you wrote:

(1.0) The JFK Killers wanted the American public to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was representing COMMUNISM, and specifically FIDEL CASTRO by killing JFK.

(1.1) The person who first came out with the "Lone Shooter" doctrine was therefore CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers.

(1.2) My point is -- WHOEVER IT WAS who came up with the "Lone Shooter" theory -- that person was by definition CONTRADICTING the JFK Killers.

I am up to my elbows in Mexico City. On the morning of 11/23 the STATE dept has someone in Nuevo Laredo who has the information of "Oswald" crossing the border back to the US by AUTO. This employee conveys that the information does not say which mode of transportation he used, and then later says that "AUTO" was a mistake...

Paul, the trip to Mexico was created to incriminate Oswald as working thru Cuba to get to Russia when he didnot have to bother with Cuba at all.

The evidence offered up to the end of November about that time was that Oswald did get money from the Cubans and was ushered in and out of Mexico with others - yet the State dept immediately contradicts this info... not the FBI. And then IN&S gets involved.

I believe you may wish to rethink Wrone's conclusion until there is some evidence to back it - yes?

Very interesting POV Paul...

Thanks for sharing it.

Bundy's call to AF-1 on 11/22 where it is said that Ozzie was the man and there is no conspiracy - you buy into that as fact?

I simply do not believe LBJ was that smart to understand what would be necessary at the autopsy.

He would be under the control of the same people who just killed his boss and were now putting a target on his back should he not play along.

Hoover was not involved with Bethesda.

Hoover did not steal the body from Parkland.

The Joint Chiefs and their associated "Industrial Congressional Complex" stood head and shoulders above LBJ, JEH and even the CIA. Without the Military, the CIA was toothless (imho)

All Hoover and LBJ could do was follow orders and engage the cover-up. FBI to create the necessary evidence, LBJ to create the Commission, CIA to confuse the issue as much as possible and

NOBODY - repeat NOBODY bothered the military. Not ONI, not MIA or MID. The CIA runs interference for the Military at every turn. The State Dept, CIA and IN&S were painting Oswald into a Cuban/Russian conspiracy starting on October 8th. And even after proving it was not Oswald in Mexico, the evidence continues to tell us that Oswald was there. Alvarado tells an amazing story of a deep conspiracy while we come to learn that he was a CIA asset. Phillips even gets in on interrogating him...

Do you believe that Hoover and/or LBJ could tell LeMay, Anderson, McDonald & Wheeler what to do with their command?

Now what about Bundy and Harriman?

Who would have told Galloway and Burkley to do what they did? IMO certainly not LBJ or Hoover...

At the time Navy reps were Anderson and McDonald yet from 1961-1963 there was quite a bit of shuffling going on.

I will most certainly look more deeply into the "Lone Nut" situation per Wrone - thanks for the assist.

DJ

btw - A great read on the subject of the relationshiup between JFK and the JCS is chapter 7 of:

COUNCI L OF WAR

A History of the Join t Chiefs of Staff

1942 – 1991

By Steven L. Rearden

edit: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2544&page=47#entry291910 is another discussion of the Wrone says it was Hoover conclusion... I have to agree with Cliff - until you offer some real evidence that Hoover had/expressed these thoughts, when on the 23rd we have the conversation with LBJ about the "second man" down in mexico.

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
";Who killed the Kennedys?";
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay

Not sure if we will ever know who was "behind" the assassination - we do know who covered it up and some of the WHY it was covered up and why it happened.

Unless the real Lee Oswald was shooting at JFK, an Oswald was not involved in the killing of JFK directly. The rest is 10 million pages of hay to hide the needle

Peace

DJ

David Josephs,

The uncertainty as to Oswald's role, if any, in the assassination that Hoover expressed in writing tells me a couple of things. First, that if LBJ had told Hoover to uncover the truth, Hoover would have tried to do so. Second, that Hoover played no role in JFK's assassination (apologies to Madeleine Brown).

The BIG question for me about Hoover is whether on the night of 11/22 and the early morning of 11/23 Hoover ordered FBI agents to create phony records of a rifle purchase by Oswald from Klein's. I've leaned toward believing the discovery of the money order allegedly used to purchase the rifle was in fact an FBI plant. But on the morning of 11/23, Hoover seems uncertain that Oswald was the assassin. Which causes me now to believe the money order, found in a Virginia FRB at about 5:00 a.m. on 11/23, was not an FBI plant. It was a plant, but not an FBI plant. And which now causes me to ask whether the owner of Klein's helped to frame Oswald.

Jon...

The FBI took Klein's microfilm with the orders http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0133a.htm and when my friend John Armstrong was at the archives he tells me that the cannister is missing now.

What these orders looked like - other than the one they chose to print - can never be known. (Note: I've always said that if other C20-T750 orders were shipping the bigger 40" FC rifle instead of the 36" TS rifle ordered, the evidence would be on this and other rolls from this time period. We are not shown a single order for a C20-T750 with scope where a 40"FC rifle is shipped. Means to me that the TS rifle with a scope was indeed shipped which in turn opens up another can of worms related to Feldsott's affidavit about the June 1962 order to Kleins which included C2766.

WCD881 https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11277&relPageId=14 attempts to explain the process (IOW bury the fraud in a mountain of fact)

The report is dated April 30th over Hoover's signature. Most of this information is offered on April 22, 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10408&relPageId=195 is Gemberling's WCD7 with a recap of the goings on at Klein's on the 23rd....

On page 188 we are told that Waldman KEEPS THE FILM and places it in a safe place (I believe it was a safety deposit box)

On page 189 we are told he was given a receipt for the film (bottom)

And in the middle of the page is a recap claiming that FBI SA Dolan took the film (https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=328937 is a report of the FBI describing some information on evidence specimans forwarded to a handful of FBI office - it includes Dolan's delivery of the microfilm to FBI onthe 23rd)

Could anything have happened to the film or the creation of "orders" at the FBI lab? Can we compare the microfilm image with the printed version? not in your lifetime... not ever.

And what we find is that this evidence is finally dealt with in March 1964. Taking some time to wade thru this nightmare of evidence we come to find that the 100 rifles the FBI and WCR claims was rec'd in Feb, 1963 was actually the order rec'd in June 1962. (as Feldsott's affidavit said http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/feldsot.htm ). There is no evidence available that allows anyone to trace C2766 thru Rupp to Kleins. The entire mountain of Rifle evidence is very misleading and deceiving.

What's important to remember is that I found FBI reports from Sept 1964 that were back dated to Dec 1963 for evidentiary reasons.

Also to remember is that the FBI took all the evidence in the evening of 11/22 and returned more than they took on Nov 26th, only to take it once again.

As you know, major breaks in the Chain of custody can only be overcome by personal statement of marking the evidence itself at the time of collection. and even then a broken chain of custody, or an unverifiable chain makes authentication of the evidence more faith than fact.

WHEN evidence was seen and by whom - and whether what we see was what we got is again - a crapshoot. Evidence only needed to implicate, to, in the words of Redlich:

"Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,

but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions

that Oswald was the sole assassin."

Paul Trejo,

My point, not well made, is that the facts about Oswald were turned into fiction about him by the Warren Commission and its defenders. Oswald was turned into a poorly adjusted loner. Turning Oswald into a poorly adjusted loner was someone's job, IMO. It was a job calling for creativity and skill, skill at shading, ignoring, inventing facts about the true Oswald.

Peace be with you.

None better suited for that job than our very own FBI of the era....

While not the greatest of books, the insider look offered by Swearingen's book http://www.amazon.com/To-Kill-President-Finally-An-secrecy/dp/1419693824

is quite interesting. The faking of informants, of overtime, of leads or whatever it was that Hoover wanted or needed was accomplished by upwardly mobile agents...

Quite right, David. FBI Agents were the ones who -- out of ambition for promotion -- pushed the Lone Nut scenario of Lee Harvey OSWALD as hard as they possibly could.

They started falsifying evidence of every kind, the minute they got the order (around 3pm 11/22/1963) from J. Edgar Hoover.

You cited former FBI Agent Wesley Swearingen, who swears he had additional information showing a conspiracy in Chicago for the JFK murder in Dallas -- but this was stomped on hard by other FBI Agents.

J. Edgar Hoover had mandated: 'It was a Lone Shooter, with no accomplices who are still at large.'

This was taken as Gospel Truth by most FBI Agents -- especially the more powerful ones -- and those who were not on board with this were "relocated" to the boonies. Former FBI Agent Don Adams is another case in point.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Even the commissioners were amazed at the declarative conclusion offered by the ever so careful FBI and Hoover.... (from the 1-22-64 Exec Session)

I wouldn't go so far to say that the FBI (Hoover) was the one who decided to push the Lone Nut scenario...

It was Hoover who wrote his Sr Staff on 12/12 stating that he felt they should not assume it was Oswald alone... even though the FBI report on Dec 9th had already stated so.

Surely does not look like Hoover is getting to make his own decisions as to the Lone Nut aspect - that he was TOLD to do so due to the Alvarado story and its possibilities.

DJ

11:35 a.m. December 12, 1963

MEMORANDUM FOR: MR. TOLSON

MR. BELMONT

MR. MOHR

MR. CONRAD

MR. DELOACH

MR. EVANS

MR. ROSEN

MR. SULLIVAN

Mr. Lee Rankin called from New York to check in with me on the matter of the Commission. He wanted to work out an arrangement with me which he thought might be satisfactory. He said he understood Mr. Belmont handled the investigation.

I told Mr. Rankin that Mr. Belmont, Mr. Rosen and I handled the preparation of the report and will handle additional leads as they come in.

Mr. Rankin asked how he should handle anything that comes up, things the Commission will want developed further, in regard to the FBI - whether they should be handled directly with me or somebody I would designate.

I replied that I will designate someone. I explained that I sent Mr. Malley down to Dallas to handle all of our angles down there; that he was on the ground there; and that I think he probably would be the man who would be more familiar with things Mr. Rankin should further explore. I stated Mr. Malley is in Dallas at the present time but will be ordered back tomorrow; that he will be available; and that we will be glad to run out any additional men as he may want.

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed; they took

-1-

Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr, December 12, 1963

page 2

Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan

it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man.

Paul Trejo,

My point, not well made, is that the facts about Oswald were turned into fiction about him by the Warren Commission and its defenders. Oswald was turned into a poorly adjusted loner. Turning Oswald into a poorly adjusted loner was someone's job, IMO. It was a job calling for creativity and skill, skill at shading, ignoring, inventing facts about the true Oswald.

Peace be with you.

None better suited for that job than our very own FBI of the era....

While not the greatest of books, the insider look offered by Swearingen's book http://www.amazon.com/To-Kill-President-Finally-An-secrecy/dp/1419693824

is quite interesting. The faking of informants, of overtime, of leads or whatever it was that Hoover wanted or needed was accomplished by upwardly mobile agents.

I'm sorry if this now appears hackneyed, The Evidence IS the Conspiracy.... none of it is used to even contemplate the possbility of Oswald's innocence...

while the amount of self-incriminating evidence is overwhelming.

The EVIDENCE shows that a seperate and distinct individual existed other than the Lee Oswald born in New Orleans. John will be the first to tell you that he only uncovered it and followed it to its logical conclusion.

To all the none-believers out there let me share one piece of evidence which is impossible to overlook or explain away.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=how+long+is+Marine+bootcamp

1. Boot camp is 13 weeks, followed by three weeks of either the School of the Infantry or Marine Combat Training. Boot camp is located at Parris Island Recruit Depot, SC on the east coast and San Diego Recruit Depot, CA for those on the west coast. All women will attend recruit training at Parris Island. Answers To the Top Marine Corps Questions | Military.com www.military.com/join.../marine-corps-recruiting-faqs.html

CE1961 states that Oswald entered bootcamp on Jan 20, 1957 and left Feb 26, 1957. 5 weeks of bootcamp according to the WC, 13 weeks according to the man who attended with him.

16 weeks of training (13 + 3) from Jan 20 brings us to mid May 1957. We assert that LEE was in the Marines before Harvey and that it is LEE who is ahead of Harvey at these locations.

That Harvey "followed" Lee appears to be by design so that "date mix-ups" could be offered as excuses.

There's no way to get around the reality that Lee and Harvey are co-joined in the evidence. The more difficult aspect remains the purpose of NYC in 1952 and the conflicts in these records moving forward in time until the marines.

Is it so far-fetched to believe that two men who are similar as adults would look similar as children - and vice versa? I do not think we can begin to know the mindset of Dulles, Angleton and the CIA with respect to post WWII "intelligence" activity. With the magnitiude of immigrants after WWII and the beginnings of the US-USSR rift, I believe the OSS/CIA/SIS of the time were well aware of what the Nazis & Russian had been doing. That they would try some of the techniques is noo real surprise

DJ

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0414b.htm

Tommy - I am saying that with a little research we come to find that it was the Zfilm (shots too close together) and not Tague that changed the location and number of bullets...

That Tague was not an issue between Dec and July and only becomes one due to an article written about him.

What bothers me is that WCD298 and the SS account are derived from something... from some evidence which points them to a spot 40 feet past z313 on Elm for a shot.

And WCD298 does not attempt to put two shots closer together than Z313 and Z375 (the foot of the stairs shot in WCD298)

If the SBT was not considered until April 1964 -

How does the autopsy report include its exact description in Nov/Dec?

Thanks TG....

Any time you need a crutch navigating around the internet, you just let me know...

I come in from Memphis
where I learned to talk the jive
When I get back to Memphis
be one less man alive
Good Mornin Mr. Benson
I see you're doin well
If I had me a shotgun
I'd blow you straight to Hell