David Josephs

Indeed Mar... a very small puff that unless you look for it, would be very difficult to see from street level 70+ feet away....

and agreed... I think the roofs of the surrounding buildings were basically ignored, especially the one the lines up with the TSBD 6th floor SE corner.

What's ironic?.... there are photos of the model created for WCD298 taken from that very spot to show Oswald at the window.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10699&relPageId=18

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10699&relPageId=23 - from the other angle showing how a shooter on DalTex would be perfect

(PS - notice where the car is for the final shot)

Mark,

Did you get a chance to see the video? no smoke, no sound. Besides, a real sniper would be set back from the window... not hanging out of it.

The initial sounds sounded like they were ground level... firecrackers or motorcycle backfires... no reason to be looking up.

If a shot is fired from the top of Dal Tex it passes right by the 6th floor east window and sounds like it comes from there...

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.

This statement is absurd on its face. A rifle shot heard 10 feet from the muzzle (They were supposedly directly under the rifle, one floor down) emits almost 150dB's ... even 120dB creates loud ringing and temporary deafness... these men lied and imo justifies the theory that shots were taken from high up and at those angles... just not from the TSBD thereby making it unnecessary to escape fromthat building - other than for planting evidence...

Was the roof of the Dal Tex ever searched?

As you say Mark... no sound, no smoke, man seen in the TSBD with a rifle, no scope, looks like a 2 foot pipe at the end....

and some guy named Mitch Werbell http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwerbell.htm

I'm definitely not saying it was used from the TSBD...just that we ought not think that all rifles are loud, even suppressed, and emit smoke based on common knowledge.

If this rifle was used - and you can hear how quiet it is - I dare say no one would notice the shot.

That silenced WW2 rifle , no smoke and basically no sound. The MC was not fired, doesn't mean a shot wasn't fired from the west side using this rifle. See how the evidence tries to keep you in one mind game while reality is found in a different one

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2086.htm

David,

Carolyn Walther's sees two gunmen on a lower floor than the 6th. (She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor.)

Norman and Jarman head up to the 5th.

The gunmen realize someone has now entered the 5th floor.

They move to the 6th floor to complete the mission. One at the west window, one at the east.

Euins, Brennan and Rowland all get a glimpse of either gunmen/gun on the 6th floor.

chris

Fritz only arrives back at the TSBD at 12:58pm, so Truly's "about 1pm" is really not so far off... the official time given for finding the rifle is 1:22pm

3 plainclothes men where coming down the stairs as Luke Mooney was going up

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them.

Didn't Ellsworth stick to his story that the rifle was not found on the 6th floor?

I post this little piece of Truly's testimony whenever this comes up... suggests to me that Ellsworth was right... and that there is a real possibility that these three men who we never learn their identities could have easily moved/left the rifle on the 6th floor. Just food for thought

-------------------------

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?

Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?

Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.

Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?

Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?

Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----

Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.

Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.

Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.

While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. About that time?

Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?

Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?

Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.

Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?

Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.

Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.

Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?

Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.

It sure is. People dump on books and research they know zero about all the time - especially when they fear it will make them and their own "efforts" irrelevant.

Something about the Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind here....

Let us know when you get to the part where the boy playing Harvey Oswald from Youth House with Hungarian ancestry is used by all those connections you found to help the CIA create an untraceable spy in the name of Lee Oswald.

The "Notice of Classification" for LEE HARVEY OSWALD cannot be genuine.

It was purportedly issued on February 2, 1960, and shows Oswald as being classified "IV-A". A IV-A classification meant he was subject to the draft, that he could be drafted. But by law he could not be drafted as of February 2, 1960, because by then he had fulfilled his military obligation by serving in the Marines.

The two documents you present, David, which I've seen elsewhere, are ludicrously and patently phony. Someone, not the U.S. Government, fabricated them. They would have fooled only a person unfamiliar with Selective Service, its documents, and its practices.

If Marina's husband did in fact possess both documents at the time of his arrest, which I question, they could only have been manufactured by someone seeking to create a meaningless false impression...meaningless except that the "Hidell" card ties Oswald to the rifle.

I guess the Warren Commission argument was that Oswald himself fabricated these two cards in order to create a false identity and a false impression of his draft status.

Question: Did Marina's husband at any time represent himself in person to be Alek Hidell?

Thanks for that Jon... I had not heard it brought up that the actual Oswald card was also a fake - Inventories of items between the DPD and FBI between 11/22 and 11/26 (when the FBI returns ALL the evidence to Dallas only to "officially" record and receive it on the 26th - more evidence came back from the FBI then the DPD sent - John proves this simply by noting that initials of the DPD who photographed each item is not seen on all the FBI returned Evidence) are woefully contradictory and is a huge part of my "Evidence IS the Conspiracy" focus.

Regarding your question.... I know of no instance where Oswald refers to himself as HIDELL. It was my understanding that Nagell used this name, not Oswald.

We cannot state that the rifle and pistol orders are directly related to Oswald either as these orders and their fulfillment do not have any direct evidence connecting them to Oswald.

Unless you want to believe that bunch of hacks on the HSCA handwriting panel who offer up their own set of unique conflicts and contradictions

Marina's husband was a spy. He spied on Russia when there, he worked undercover with the FBI to out FPCC supporters while working both sides of that fence, he was given the equipment of a spy and as many are starting to see his behavior left behind spy-like traces. Whether it was Lee or Harvey working for the CIA - I would guess Lee.

Maybe "spy" is the wrong word - let's just say as we all know - he wasn't what he appeared to be.

David,

Oswald’s arrest wallet supposedly contained $13.00 in cash – one five and eight ones. Was there a mention of money in the Wallet found at 10th and Patton?

Tom

Hi Tom -

I don't think there was anything more than Westbrook asking about HIDELL and OSWALD ID.

btw - after the post above related to Hosty... the unnamed, unknown person who messages & does not post for himself had no reply to support the contention that the wallet Westbrook found was Tippit's - the wallet I showed was recovered with the rest of Tippit's stuff and entered into evidence by Bardin... well after Tippit was gone

It's nice to leave that person speechless.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=329884

This is the report from WCD7 stating that Oswald had a wallet at the Paines that he was saving money in...

When Marina was at the DPD station, Ruth brings this wallet with $170 in it to her...

Wallet #1 - on Oswald in the back of the police car

Wallet #2 - Westbrook

Wallet #3 - the one Ruth brings

Wallet #4 is the RED WALLET listed on Inv sheet 11193-G as Item #381 sent to the FBI in DC

"B1" is the FBI desgnation for the contents of Oswald's wallet https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=350521 & https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=374694

You may notice - the name HIDELL does not appear on this list. Wonder why?

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11690&relPageId=83 makes it sound as if some of these key items from the WALLET may have been "found" at his residence

Gotta go for now... good luck with photobucket

DJ

David,

I have my 1963 draft card. It was issued to me on December 9, 1963. Signed by Mae E. Wells, Plano, Illinois draft board.

It is unlike either of the documents you post. It's the real deal. If I knew how to post it I would.

I'm sorry - you also asked if the wallets were the same... they were not.

Jon - go to photobucket and sign up. Upload to your own library for free and then copy the "DIRECT" link into the space you see after you hit the image icon (looks like a picture to the left of <>

I was under the impression the bottom one was the real deal....

===============

I just got a note claiming that the wallet we see was TIPPIT's. That the DALLAS COPS told Reiland at the scene it was Tippits...

1st off - let's believe the Dallas Police when it comes to the Evidence....

2nd is the following reply to this unknown messager who declines to post here himself...

So Tippit's wallet had Oswald and Hidell SSS cards in it?

Bardin was the officer who took Tippit's wallet to Dougherty along was a variety of his possessions - he had gotten them from the Hospital?

18. CSS Form (Crime Scene Section), by W. R. Bardin. Original form concerning crime scene investigation, (Original), 11/22/63. 00002565 1 page 09 01 018 (no scan)

17. CSS Form (Crime Scene Section), by W. R. Bardin. Original form concerning evidence collected, (Original), 11/22/63. 00002563 1 page 09 01 017 (no scan)

Westbrook testifies in April - no mention of finding a wallet or bill fold in the street yet from the hospital Bardin is able to bring all the possessions in for the CSS form

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/25/2586-001.gif

We have a handful of people seeing Westbrook with the wallet. Barret is asked about Hidell, and this is LONG AFTER Tippit is gone.

WESTBROOK:

Well, then, of course, I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman---I don't recall his name---then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed.
Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false it was just one of the actually--it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about Kennedy.
So, we returned to the scene and here I met Bob Barrett, the FBI agent, and Sergeant Stringer and Barrett and I were together, and then an eye-witness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened

Neither Stringer or Bardin were questioned and Westbrook does not say a word about finding a billfold or wallet which he would have had to get to Bardin to go with the rest of his stuff... Westbrook gives the jacket, shells and a piece of window sill to Agent Drain - no wallet.

Can this person be of the opinion that after coming and going to the Tippit scene a number of times, the body is gone (no DPD officers, don't pick up that wallet lying next to your comrade and see it's his and send it with him to the hospital - where all the rest of the belongings came from)

and this wallet, Tippit's wallet, simply remained all this time in the street surrounded by a multitude of people for Westbrook to pick up... the same man who finds the Jacket, gives the FBI the shells and a piece of a window sill.

WF AA-TV cameraman Ron Reiland shot film footage in which Captain George

M. Doughty, Sergeant Calvin Owens, and Captain Westbrook can be seen handling or

viewing the wallet. TIPPIT-It/IZ In one scene Sergeant Owens is holding a man's leather

wallet in his right hand and showing it to Captain George Doughty. SA Barrett said,

"The wallet was there. There's no getting around that. Westbrook had the wallet in his

hand and asked me if I knew who these people were .... .l'm adamant that there was a

wallet in somebody's hand and (Westbrook) asked me if I knew who 'Lee Harvey

Oswald' was and who 'Hidell' was."73 Barrett later told fellow agent James Hasty about

the wallet and it's contents. Barrett told Hasty the wallet contained identification for

both Lee Harvey Oswald and Alex Hidell. Barrett told Hasty that Captain Westbrook

kept the wallet and thought that he had placed it in police property. 74 TIPPIT-13

We don't know the contents of Westbrook's beyond the mentioning of the name Hidell - the important part was that both had fake Hidell ID and were only 2 of the 5 total wallets involved.

CE1986 details the contents - there is only one thing that would "officially" be considered ID - the SSS card

Yet it was so obviously a fake. the other piece of Hidell ID was Marina's signing the FPCC card... not exactly proof. Then again - neither is this. Our Man Ozzie here was pretty good with photography (as was Roscoe White) so someone added a photo and reduced the text to fit... thing is this card and the real one below it are both in the wallet (#13 & #14 on CE1986)

The only other things linked to the name HIDELL are the rifle and pistol orders. One in Jan, one in March, both shipped on the same day, both never touched by Lee Harvey Oswald

While we may never know who killed Tippit, we can and do know who brought the wallet and knew detailed info on Oswald VERY quickly after his arrest.

Let's stay focused on the Evidence rather than the conclusions drawn from it. You may offer different conclusions yet we cannot change the Evidence as offered and discovered as being indicative of the Conspiracy.

From John's website: http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

Following the shooting, eight or nine people walked to Tippit's patrol car and saw him lying on the street. A few minutes later ambulance attendants Clayton Butler and Eddie Kinsley arrived and removed Tippit's body. DPD officers began to arrive at the scene and started to question witnesses as on-lookers gathered. But not one witness, not one ambulance driver, not one neighbor, not one on-looker and not one trained police officer saw a wallet lying on the street or in Tippit's car. Ted Calloway said, "I'll tell you one thing, there was no billfold at that scene. If there way, there would have been too many people who would have seen it."

Dallas Police Captain W.R. Westbrook told the WC how he learned about the Tippit shooting while at the TSBD. Westbrook said, "I ran to my radio because I am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, Sergeant Stringer and I and some patrolman---I don't recall his name [sgt. Calvin Owens testified he was the man Westbrook didn't recall]---then drove to the immediate vicinity of where Officer Tippit had been shot and killed. Of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at Marsalis and Jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false it was just one of the actually--it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about Kennedy."

By the time Westbrook returned to 10th & Patton there were "150 to 200 people around there," according to Officer J.M. Poe. A few minutes later a wallet suddenly appeared in Westbrook's hands with identification for Lee Harvey Oswald, which linked Oswald to Tippit's murder, and with identification for Alek Hidell that linked Hidell (Oswald) to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the Book Depository. Westbrook called out to FBI agent Bob Barrett and asked him if he knew anything about Oswald or Hidell. Barrett was unfamiliar with these names, but saw the wallet, along with Captain George Doughty, Sergeant Calvin Owens, Sergeant Kenneth Croy, accident investigator Howell Summers, and WFAA TV cameraman Ron Reiland. Reiland filmed police officers as they inspected and handled the wallet. The Dallas Police officers at 10th & Patton now knew, thanks to identification found in the wallet, that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was the prime suspect in Tippit's murder. Their next stop was the Texas Theater where HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeve brown shirt, was sitting in the 4th row in the lower level, while LEE Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, was hiding in the balcony.

Captain Westbrook was the ranking officer at 10th & Patton and knew police procedure as well as anyone. If Westbrook was not the person who brought the wallet to 10th & Patton, then he should have insisted on police reports to establish a "chain of custody" for the wallet, written a detailed report about the wallet and its contents, entered the wallet into evidence at DPD headquarters, and discussed the wallet with the Warren Commission. But not a single police report was written about the wallet and neither Westbrook, Owens, nor Croy mentioned nor was asked about the wallet by the FBI, Secret Service, or the Warren Commission. The fact that Captain Westbrook totally ignored police procedure about a crucial piece of evidence is reason to believe that Westbrook was the person responsible for bringing the wallet to 10th & Patton and, according to FBI agent Barrett, it was Westbrook who kept the wallet. This wallet was the single most important piece of evidence ever found prior to Oswald's arrest, yet ten minutes after it appeared this wallet disappeared in the hands of Capt. Westbrook and was never seen again.

This disappearing wallet is PROOF that Tippit's murder was pre-planned. If Westbrook, or anyone else, had identification in their possession that would be used to identify a suspect in a murder, PRIOR TO THE MURDER, then that person had prior knowledge of a pre-planned assassination. The real significance of this wallet is that it shows that Westbrook knew, IN ADVAVCE, that HARVEY Oswald would be accused of Tippit's murder and that he would be linked to the assassination of President Kennedy from identification cards in the wallet (the name "Hidell" was used to order the rifle from Klein's). The only reason for the wallet to appear at 10th & Patton was to identify and frame Oswald. And the only reason for this wallet to disappear is that DPD officers removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his pants pocket while en route to the police station. Two wallets that contain nearly identical identification are unexplainable. The fact that Captain Westbrook never turned the wallet over to the DPD identification bureau, never entered it into evidence, never described nor mentioned the wallet in a DPD police report, and never mentioned the wallet during his Warren Commission testimony is reason to believe that Dallas Police Captain Westbrook was a very important participant in the CIA's conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy. After the assassination Captain Westbrook relocated to South Vietnam, where he served as a CIA special advisor to the Saigon Police.

NOTE: During the first hour of HARVEY Oswald's first interrogation by Captain Fritz, Captain Westbrook came into the office and said, "Our suspect had admitted being a communist-he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature." Westbrook's detailed knowledge of HARVEY Oswald's background, within one hour after his arrest, is further reason to believe that he was a co-conspirator.

HARVEY Oswald, wearing a brown shirt, was brought out the front entrance of the Texas Theater, placed in a police car and driven to jail. Stuart L. Reed, the 30-year army veteran who took photos of McWatters' bus on Elm St., another photo of McWatters' bus near the TSBD, and a photo of the 6th floor window at the TSBD, was now taking photos of HARVEY Oswald's arrest. Paul Bentley removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his left rear pocket en route to the DPD headquarters (along with Officers Carrol, Hill, Walker and Lyons) and found identification for "Lee Harvey Oswald" and "A. J. Hidell"--similar to the identification found in the wallet that had suddenly appeared in the hands of Captain Westbrook. Bentley told WFAA-TV (11/23/63), "I removed his wallet from his back pocket and obtained his identification." Sgt. Hill said, "the only way we found out what his name was was to remove his billfold and check it ourselves; he wouldn't even tell us what his name was." The Dallas Police were now in possession of two wallets, both containing identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell. These two wallets could have created serious problems, and alerted the public to the possibility of two Lee Harvey Oswalds, if properly identified as evidence and reported. But the wallet that first appeared in the hands of Capt. Westbrook was unexplainable. It could never, ever be made public, and quickly disappeared--last seen in the hands of Capt. Westbrook.

NOTE: There were a total of five Oswald wallets: a black plastic wallet (CE 1798); a red billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #382); a brown billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #114); a billfold taken from LHO upon arrest--initialed by HMM (Henry Moore), wallet and contents inventoried and photographed; and the Westbrook wallet, which was not initialed by police, not listed in inventory, not photographed, not mentioned by a single witness to the WC, HSCA, ARRB, etc. and disappeared, but not before is was filmed by WFAA TV and seen by FBI agent Barrett.

I don't think the seizure had anything to do with AF-1 landing late and JFK leaving Love Field at 11:50 instead of 11:30... the radio announced he was about 10 minutes late:

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

It appears that few if anyone knew when JFK was expected. Yes the streets were lined early yet when asked, some of the key players in the TSBD barely make it. The three men on the 5th floor?

Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams

Cutting kinda close, no? These men have no real idea when he's going to show up, yet after 12:15 they decide to walk around the building, up the back elevator, to the front of the building and then open the windows.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Yet if you look at Moorman 3 we see that the windows closest to the elevators on the West side are open already.... what was the need to cross to the other end of the floor when the west windows would actually give a better view.

Secret Service agent Winston Lawson tells Chief Curry that the luncheon was to begin at 12:15… that the plane was to land at 11:30 (end of top left paragraph) and after a 45 min motorcade thru Dallas, arrive at the Trade Mart. VIP invitations had been sent and received which stated the Luncheon was to start at 12 NOON.

Bottom line of all this is that Oswald asks for a ride home before noon on Thursday - if he doesn't go home there needs to be another way to get the rifle to the TSBD (some suggest Yates' story of dropping off a hitchhiker at Elm/Houston who asked about Ruby and was carrying a large, long package "curtain rods". Some also suggest the parcel never delivered to the Oswald due to the wrong address had a brown paper bag in it. The testimonies surrounding this bag are convoluted at best with no one taking credit for bringing it down, including Montgomery who is pictured with it, few if any mention seeing the bag where it was said to be, no photo of the bag even thouh Studebaker's first photo was basically taken with the bag at his feet - if it ever was where they said it was...

Without Thursday's trip home the Set-up has to take different turns.

Without his knowing the time whne the motorcade would pass by - a man with a plan to assassinate the president as he passed by the building would be where at 11:45, 12:00, 12:15, 12:25.... ?? when the rifle needs retrieving, assembly, (thus reassembled rifle would not have been sighted in after the reconstruction - if it was used (which it wasn't) the scope would not be reliable...

Brennen claims he sees over 75% of the rifle - but no scope.

Euins? I'd suggest you read this interesting testimony. Whoever shot from that area it was not with a scoped rifle - which makes sense since it would be so hard to reacquire the target with the scope, especially one not sighted in yet...

Nope, Oswald could not have been at this wondow nor did he have a plan to kill JFK - we all knew this... I think this proves it. Marina and Ruth claim to be surprised he came home on the 21st. He played with his children and seemed to try and be nice to Marina - gives one pause to think he knew something was in the works and was saying his good byes..... but that's just speculation.

DJ

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?
Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?
Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window. (seems to me a boy who knows his rifles)
Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.
Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.
Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?
Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Plus, if I remember correctly, there was a man with a rifle seen at 12:15 on the 6th floor

VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Arnold Louis Rowland, Address: 3026 Haggerly [sp?] St., Dallas, Texas, Age: DOB: 4-29-45, Phone No. FE 7 1861, POB: Corpus Christi, Texas.
Deposes and says:

I am a student at Adamson High School in Dallas, Texas. I am employed on weekends at the Pizza Inn located on West Davis Avenue in Dallas. At approximately 12:10 PM today, my wife Barbara and I arrived in downtown Dallas and took position to see the President's motorcade. We took position at the west entrance of the Sheriff's Office on Houston Street. We stood there for a time talking about the security measures that were being made for the president's visit in view of the recent trouble when Mr. Adelai [sic] Stevenson had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surroudding [sic] buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book [cross-out -- Suppository?] building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. In about 15 minutes President Kennedy passed the [cross-out] spot where we were standing and the motorcade had just turned west on Elm heading down the hill when I heard a noise which I thought to be a back fire [sic]. In fact some of the people around laughed and then in about 8 seconds I heard another report and in about 3 seconds a third report. My wife, who had ahold of my hand, started running and dragging me across the street and I never did look up again at this window.

This statement is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.

/s/ Arnold L. Rowland

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963

/s/ Rosemary Allen
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor? https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138620
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.

David Josephs,

IMO you are incredibly good at factual detail.

I'm sometimes OK with detail but prefer concepts.

Thanks Jon -

Distraction? I'd like to think of H&L, Nagel, Morales, Phillips, Hunt, Mexico, Ruby, etc... as "sub-plot"... it could fit the assassination or not... I believe your intel background would support the idea that whoever plotted this would use any and all resources involved in the most effective way they thought possible.

H&L is not needed in the least unless you feel that people like Hoover and Angleton were aware of these operations and part of the cover-up was to insure that program's ongoing success or existence.

The cover-up was to make everyone yet no one appear guilty - Salandria, and I imagine many others had it pegged the weekend of, especially after Oswald was killed. He, like Cliff pointed to the Jacket and said, not possible.

All those assets at the plotter's disposal were also liabilities to those not wanting them exposed, thereby ensuring an ongoing cover-up. These same programs were still running, need I say ARE still running only in much more sophisticated manner but the end is the same, the secrecy is the same - regardless of the president.

===============

Jon - as I rethought what I posted I must ask you to bring your attention to this one situation.

Oswald asks Wesley for a ride home approximately mid morning Thursday the 21st for whatever reason.

Without his going home:

1 - is there another way to get the rifle from the garage to the 6th floor and attribute it solely to Oswald

2 - is Oswald still the Patsy?

Wesley claims Oswald asks to take him home.

Paine says it was to make up with Marina... her garage light story is tissue paper thin

How can the entire set-up hinge on Oswald going home - is he setting himself up to take the blame somehow?

We know he didn't take that rifle to the TSBD nor was it in that garage, nor was it on Magazine when he moved out in Sept.

From that same post I think it shows that the FBI was not part of the set-up... that they were a victim of it and had to CYA or be "embarrassed" - the worst of Hoover's fears.

What a great potential patsy you have. All you have to do is frame him.

Ah... frame him as what?

For weeks if not months he is performing tasks that easily have two or more meanings

Help us with FPCC

Help us investigate mail order rifle houses (if the Hidell order as actually sent)

write letters trying to get back to Russia, with or without your wife

Ruth Paine arrives late Sept after visiting Friends (Quakers) and family/friends to take Marina to Irving

According to the FBI watching Oswald, an Oct 31st report from Kaack says that he left with his wife on Sept 25, presumably for TX.

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10413&relPageId=2

The next FBI Commission Doc is dated 11/24.

On 10/25 the FBI learns that Oswald forwarded mail from New Orleans to Irving

On 10/30 HOSTY makes first contact with Marina at the Paines. Oswald is not there https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=692235

next page - "Dallas and all offices should continue effort to locate subject LEE HARVEY OSWALD"

page 176 - 11/5 and still trying to locate Oswald from Little Rock Arkansas where Robert lives

p 178 Dallas FBI tells HQ and Little Rock that MICHAEL PAINE advised that LEE is at TSBD 411 Elm, unknown home address ... Oswald has been at his home since Oct 4th and home most weekends.

The FBI's WCD #1 only says that the FBI received reports in mid Oct that a person possibly identical to Oswald was in Mexico City https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10402&relPageId=49

During what amounts to some of the most incriminating time prior to the assassination, the FBI, HOSTY, offers no clues about Oswald until Nov 1 when they hear from MICHAEL.

The following weeks include the Sports Drome sightings when he is both with his family one weekend and one weekend, the weekend before the assassination, he stays at his rooming house, does his laundry. Yet on these two weekends another impersonation occurs with the rifle and events occur which are sure to be stick in witnesses memories - the firing on a neighbor's target, the bragging, the Italian made rifle with scope... these same people put Oswald at this range in Dallas the same day an Oswald and Duran are recorded on tape at the Cuban/Soviet Embassies and only the night before, in Dallas, Lee is at Odio's. Did the FBI know this and bury reports... ??? or did they assume he was at Sports Drome and then realized it couldn't be there either - Hoover knew the CIA was lying about Mexico very early. IMO when he sees Lee HENRY and starts to get negative reports back from his Mexico sources (of which there were MANY)

Libeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD?

Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range.

Libeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963?

Price: Yes.

-----

So in these critical days not only do we have the call and visit in Mexico, the Sports Drome intent to leave the impression Lee Oswald was there whether you think it was Lee, Crafard or some other look alike, maybe Igor Vaganov? http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=6656.0 the multiple sightings in south Texas http://jfklancer.com/Page1.html and the FBI either not knowing where he is, not writing reports about it and knowing he is at Odio's with 2 Cubans or I have not yet found reports about what they knew of Oswald during this time.

I do know that the FBI checked their sources in Mexico and got reports on the 4th, 6th and 8th of Nov as they moved up the hierarchy with the 11/8 report a negative for Oswald from the Dept of Interior (Gobernacion) https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=61080&relPageId=2

The FBI has info finally by the 8th of Nov that Oswald was not observed in Mexico, there is no mention of the Odio incident and no evidence of the knowledge of his whereabouts until Nov 1.

Was the FBI setting Oswald up at this point as the patsy? From what I've seen, this does not occur until after 11/22. On the morning of 11/23 the report from Mexico is that although the Evidence shows HO LEE left by AUTO on Oct 3rd, not driving himself... the STATE dept rep CASH tells the I&NS that the evidence does not show the mode of transportation.

The FBI and their assets now create the Mexico trip out of thin air over the next 10 months. It is completely false but makes it appear as if he traveled to and from Mexico alone in order to secure passage to Russia via Cuba... a complete and total lie again as his passport was already approved for travel to Russia directly. It was his wife that was having the trouble.

I think by now we all know that Oswald did not shoot JFK... it was a set-up. Yet let's remember the most important piece of the set-up. Oswald MUST go home so it appears he gets his rifle - otherwise it would have had to be brought to him, ergo a conspiracy. He does not ask Wesley for a ride home until Thursday afternoon!

If he does not go home, he never brought the rifle - game over.

Marina claims the blanket in the garage looks as undisturbed as ever

Ozzie had gone to bed at 9pm, Ruth at 11:00pm. I think we all agree that he did not bring C2766 with him to work on Friday

If he does not go home, the set-up falls apart... as of noon on Thursday, he was not going home. HE initiates the trip.

Mr. BALL - I see.

Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL - It was on a Thursday.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - Was that the 21st of November?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Well, tell us about that.

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."

So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"

And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."

He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Mr. JENNER - Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Until you retired for the night?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER - Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?

Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.

Mr. JENNER - Any persons moving about?

Mrs. PAINE - No.

Mr. JENNER - The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?

Mrs. PAINE - That is right.

Mr. BALL - The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.

Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Anyone care to take a crack at explaining how a set-up as this can hinge on the patsy's decisions to go home?

Mrs. PAINE - As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.

Mr. JENNER - Was Marina out on the lawn also?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.

Mr. JENNER - That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, it was rather my own, too.

Mr. JENNER - And it was your own?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Do I fairly state it?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

see post # 18 above

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I met with Palmer McBride via researcher William Weston. He seemed a real and truthful man......case closed ?? >> H & L true .......

Tip of the iceberg as they say.

Related a story John told me today...

He met a man doing a historical retrospect on the school and teachers including Stripling. He provided John with a complete list of teachers from the 50's. As some were found to have passed on those that he did reach told him to talk with Kudlaty - asst prinipal. Even the principal says to talk to Kudlaty so he calls him. "Did Oswald go to Stripling?" "Yeah" "are you sure?"

"Well I gave them his records the day after the assassination". " !!! " stunned.

Take care Steve

I'm baffled at how some people can see a person and not remember their face later. Post a photo of someone, I'm confident I can identify them. But some people just don't register faces.

By the way, at my own father's funeral, I was told by several of his lifelong friends of jobs he had that I never knew about. I was under the impression he held the same one for decades after WW2, but lo and behold, he had worked a few others.

I'm pretty sure that someone with the right amount of energy and more or less mania for a subject could devote years to a thesis and find tens of thousands of data points to support it.

I've said this before but I am positive I could prove Woodstock never happened.

There is probably a bit of a misunderstanding as to how H&L developed... John didn't go looking for Kudlaty - he was led to him by teachers and the Principal who felt he may have info that could help. When Kudlaty tells John that he gave the records to the FBI on 11/23 at 8am yet saw them and confirmed it said Oswald attended Stripling in the fall of 1954... It was a pretty amazing discovery. The Principal also said he rememebr that Oswald had gone to Stripling for a while.

I think those with an agenda can find ways to accuse those they don't believe that the results of this work were so tainted by the preconcieved conclusion that, in your words, "a subject could devote years to a thesis and find tens of thousands of data points to support it."

One might assume that after the first X number of attempts, if the evidence is not there to support the theory, the person might stop looking.

The impetus for the search was Palmer McBride's FBI interview http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0370b.htm stating that he was with Oswlad in 1957-58 when Oswald was in the Marines.

(emphasis in original)

H&L p3

When I read the Warren Commission's final report on the assassination I was

surprised to learn that they determined Oswald had been in Japan serving in the Marine

Corps in 1957 and 1958, and was not in New Orleans. I was confused and searched

the 26 volumes of the Warren Commission hearings to locate McBride's testimony, but

was surprised to find that he was never interviewed by the Commission

Over the years both Lifton and Parker have tried to assert that Palmer was wrong. That it was 1956, BEFORE Oswald went into the marines.

Lifton even wrote the ARRB about what he felt was the "mistake" - this is Palmer's reply - cc'd to all JFK Researchers & publishers.

I just got off the phone with John who feels it's okay to post this... I truly know of nothing else I can do but present the EVIDENCE from those who offered it and lived it.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy

DJ

I think we missed the point Mark....

Georgia was shown a picture of Marg when she lived on San Saba from 1945 - if anything she would be MORE familar with the 1945 Marg than the 1961 version.:

But when I showed Georgia a photo taken of the tall, nice-looking

Marguerite Oswald on the day of her marriage to Edwin Ekdahl in 1945 she said, "I

don't know who that is. " 52-13

The woman on the left worked at retail stores and is the older version of the woman in the center -

in the center is LEE's mother in 1945 when Georgia knew her -

on the right is the practical nurse/barmaid/maid/home nurse (Lee's mother was never a nurse)

Georgia remembered another occasion when Mrs. Oswald obtained a job as a practical nurse and needed a car to pick up some of her clothes. 52-14 She said, "Lucille Hubbard gave Marguerite a ride in her car and took her to a house that Marguerite had rented 'next to the Stripling School.' Mrs. Hubbard was surprised to find not only a lot of clothes, but also a lot of furniture in the house."

Mrs Oswald was at 2220 Thomas across from Stripling on Nov 22, 1963 as well.

Whether of not we think they appear the same or not wasn't the intent of the post - a woman who lived across the street from her claims it's not. This is the follow-up research JA did to investigate the actual story not just rely on the FBI's timeline taken from Life magazine.

Even though there are witnesses who claim to have seen Mrs. O with 3 children John Pic specifically states:

Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?
Mr. PIC - There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.
Mr. JENNER - The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?
Mr. PIC - Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.
Mr. JENNER - Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook.
Mr. PIC - That is the one further south of Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER - That is the first one?
Mr. PIC - Right.
Mr. JENNER - The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer of 1948 is different from the first one?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; it is.

The "first one" is from 1945 when Lee was in 1st grade at Benbrook common school

the second one, in 1948 is at a time when their address was 3300 Willig and then 7408 Ewing

while Lee was in 2nd & 3rd grade

Mr. PIC - After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex and then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex.

On July 7, 1947 Marguerite C. Ekdahl, with a $1500 cash down payment, purchased

a new home at 101 San Saba in Benbrook for $3950.74 Tarrant County land

records show that Marguerite Ekdahl leased her house to Buster L. Murray on August

1, 194 7 for one year at $50 per month. 75 This is the only Tarrant County record relating

to Buster Murray.

Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba

Do you think yo could recognize a picture of your mother or father from 40 years ago? How about a neighbor you drove around and bought groceries for who was rude and cheap - not paying anything for the help offered? Is there a reason not to believe Georgia when the records corroborate her words?

This like so much of the case, is not a 100% lock. It's some high % with the need to correlate it with all the other info... when one does that I believe the picture becomes more clear

DJ

I wish someone who has the knowledge to do so would lay out the facts, discretely, asserted by John Armstrong, all the main facts, and assess for the benefit of me and perhaps others each fact asserted.

Facts are a matter of historical record. If John Armstrong has asserted "A" to be a fact, he should back his assertion with something in the historical record. If Armstrong has asserted "A" to be a fact and has not backed his assertion or has falsely backed his assertion, I'd like to know about it.

It appears to me a lot of the discussion here concerning John Armstrong is whether Armstrong assesses correctly the facts he gets right. For example, I understand that Armstrong has asserted that a boy alleged to be Oswald had his tonsils removed in 1945 and that the man buried in Oswald's grave was buried with intact tonsils. I'll assume for sake of discussion these are facts asserted by Armstrong and that these asserted facts are backed by the historical record.

How do I assess these facts? From what I've read, sometimes during a tonsillectomy there is a failure to remove all the tonsil, and in such a case the tonsil occasionally grows back partially, not to its original size. From what I've read, this occasional occurrence happens tonsil-by-tonsil. That is, if one tonsil is removed completely and the other only mostly, only the mostly removed tonsil may grow back to part of its original size.

So I'm left with a question: Does the historical record indicate clearly the extent to which the man buried in Oswald's grave had intact tonsils? I'd say, based on what I've read, that if the historical record indicates clearly the tonsils were fully intact, the man buried in Oswald's grave is not the same person as the boy who had a tonsillectomy in 1945.

Hi Jon,

I'm not sure if you did this already but if you PM me with an email address I will send you the spreadsheet I created which shows the conflicts, locations, and happenings with H&L from 1939 thru Nov 1963 side-by-side and is searchable and sortable...

Case in point - Georgia Bell was interviewed by John in 1996. (the 52-12 refers to images on the CD which comes with the Book) He went thru the land records to find who was supposed to be there and he talked to the people who actually did live there - Now, info on "Buster Murray" never living where records related to Marg say he did is not going to blow the case wide open - but is another in a long line of conflicts that seem to follow Mrs. O.

On July 7, 1947 Marguerite C. Ekdahl, with a $1500 cash down payment, purchased

a new home at 101 San Saba in Benbrook for $3950.74 Tarrant County land

records show that Marguerite Ekdahl leased her house to Buster L. Murray on August

1, 194 7 for one year at $50 per month. 75 This is the only Tarrant County record relating

to Buster Murray.

Buster Murray and his wife, Doris, lived at 1617 Hemphill in 1947-48 and at

1919 W. Vickery in 1950, according to Fort Worth City directories. None of the neighbors

who lived on San Saba during that time remember anyone named Buster Murray.

Georgia Bell, who lived directly across the street from the Oswald's at 100 San Saba,

remembered Marguerite very well, but said nobody by the name of Murray ever lived

in the house.

Walter and Georgia Bell finished building their new home at 100 San Saba in

early July 1947. A few weeks before they moved into their new home, Marguerite

Oswald moved into her new house across the street at 101 San Saba. Georgia Bell lived

the next 49 years of her life at 100 San Saba, and knew each and every one of her neighbors

very well.

I met Georgia Bell in early 1996 and visited with her at 100 San Saba on several

occasions. When I met Georgia she was 82 years old and had a very good memory. Georgia

remembered Marguerite Oswald well and said that she did not have much furniture,

few clothes, and no car when she moved in. Marguerite, who Georgia described as "short

and fat," often visited her as did Marguerite's neighbor to the east, Mrs. Lucille

Hubbard. Georgia and Lucille often picked up groceries for Mrs. Oswald and chauffeured

her around Benbrook.

NOTE: When I showed Georgia Bell a photograph of "Marguerite Oswald" standing

in a kitchen washing dishes (circa 1961) she said, "That's her, short and fat just like I

remember her." 52-12 But when I showed Georgia a photo taken of the tall, nice-looking

Marguerite Oswald on the day of her marriage to Edwin Ekdahl in 1945 she said, "I

don't know who that is. " 52-13

this is 52-12 and 52-13

It's more than just that he had tonsils when he was re-examined. The Donabedian Ex #1 p599 shows that Oswald had tonsillitis in January, 1957. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0309a.htm

This same exhibit describes a 3" mastoid scar on the left side in a number of places along with "STDs contracted in the line of duty", and a gunshot wound just above the elbow... Compare the medical logs to the travel and we find him being treated for STDs at the same time the records put him on a boat to Ping Tung. CE1961 states that Oswald went to Ping Tung on the 14th of Sept..http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0415a.htm while Donabedian Ex #1 p603 has him receiving STD treatment... There's a DoD letter that claims he was flown back to Japan yet both the Sept 14 and Oct 6 logs show him on the ship to and from Ping Tung... another story has him not leaving at all - yet somehow he is on the Oct 5-6 ship back:

These logs are found on the CD. He is supposedly treated in Japan on the 16th, 22nd, 23rd & 29th of Sept while he is also in Ping Tung.

The Folsom Ex http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0338b.htm p658 shows nothing between Aug 13 and Oct 5th...

On p661 of the Folsom Exh we see that from the first to second weapons test Oswald gets worse using an M-1.

These bits of Evidence added to each other betray the building blocks of the conspiracy - they do not accurately reflect the history of this man and in fact illustrate the conflicts.

Shall we ala McAdams or DVP try to explain away each and every one of these conflicts under the assumption that two Oswalds is foolish and not possible - or do we evaluate each item for what it represents and how it fits in the overall puzzle.

(Note: this is not the same as JVB where a simple search proves the evidence offered does not support the conclusion - the infamous W-2 is not on a form the IRS used during this or any other period that I could find)

The tonsilectomy was recorded on a life insurance policy that Marg buys on Lee. The men who embalmed Oswald stated that the did not see the craniotomy scars on the "head" removed from the casket. http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/lhox2.htm#_ednref9 That the casket had been broken from the bottom and that a number of other events related to Oswald's remains also may have occurred.

All we have are the stories and evidence... the Norton report and the men who performed the services are in conflict. How many times do we come across official reports which conflict with the people they are supposedly written about?

Asking what H&L is all about, in a nutshell - is the same as asking what the cover-up was all about... in a nutshell. Can a few sentences or paragraphs do justice to what we now know about the conspiracy?

Here we go:

Assassination? Oswald didn't do it

H&L? The evidence and supplemental research done shows that the evidence offered is hiding the existence of two separate men using the same identity by combining these records into a single one.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/tabs/collection/po-arm is the index to the Baylor notebooks. The source materials for the book. Not everything here made it to the book. It represents over 10 years of work traveling the world on his own dime to uncover what he saw as an explainable mystery embedded in the evidence itself.

I hope I've done your question some justice - and will continue to address any H&L questions and concerns posted.

DJ

This is a verbatim post from a thread pulled towards H&L that needn't have been. I find these points to be some of the more direct to show conflict between the FBI's reporting of the situation and the actual situation. The fact remains that records exist of a small boy being reviewed at Youth House - no where near the boy Lee was. These days on the NYC perm record need not be exact, but they ought to make sense.

In a 180 day, 2-90 day - 4.5 month per semester school year, can a portion of one semester be 127 days? and not ANY 127 days but a time that the Pics and Oswalds describe in such contrasting detail as to what happens to Lee, where and when they visit, who they see, where they live, what Marg does... and on and on.

Please be clear - H&L from 1952 thru early 1963 had nothing to do with JFK's assassination. What the CIA was doing and why is hard to see, let alone understand. If they can fire a dart which leaves no trace, contemplate and execute some of the grossest atrocities to justify an elusive end... H&L is really so far from the path as to be ridiculed?

then shout out to Jon Tidd and from where this post came - the cover-up does indeed continue to this very second.

and thank you Steve and Don for having my back.... ampersands and all..

=====================

Lee -

I respect your POV and the manner in which you present it.

If a certain researcher did not explore the autopsy as completely as he did we may still be accepting the fraudulent xrays and photos as authentic. We may never have gotten around to fathoming that Rear Admiral Galloway would ORDER the doctors to destroy this Best Evidence in favor of evidence that was needed...

Could we ever expect to contemplate that JFK's body arrived 90 minutes before it did officially, that he may have even been operated on in the belly of AF-1. That the damage as we now get to see it has literally nothing to do with what happened in Dealey Plaza - yet researchers will still refer to these autopsy conclusions as if they represented the crime and not the conspiracy.

Do I need to agree with every page, every speculative conclusion? of course not and I don't. If you've gone to all the work to understand what was offered and conclude it not to be supportive of the final conclusion - BRAVO! That's the beauty of the case and imo the intent of the Conspiracy. Many explanations can be correct. The Evidence offeres a view into history yet only a partial view - the non-governmental efforts of individuals like Lifton and Armstrong adds immeasurably to the knowledge base and to the testing of the theories.

I find the wholesale exclusion of marines who would have stayed with LEE in favor of those who were with Harvey very compelling.

I find the conflicts in the timelines along with glaring evidence of the same man in two places simultaneously more than "minutia"

The acceptance and understanding of H&L requires one to drop their preconceived notions of right and wrong and enter the world of spies, military black ops and the MilitaryIndustrialCongressionalComplex. To firmly conclude it as an "absurdity" with the thinnest of rebuttals does everyone a disservice.

I do not happen to subscribe to much of the POST assassination travels of Lee and Harvey as offered by John. Some of it makes sense, most does not TO ME. What that has to do with 10 years prior and the events in NYC, IDK. The boy looking like a scrawny 4'9" at the end of the summer of 1953 when he was 5'4" 115lbs in the winter of 1951 in 6th grade. These are not the same boy: (edit/correction: the 5'4" 115lbs comes from the entrance physical to PS117 in Sept 1952)

And John is simply too stupid to know his brother.

Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.

When I started my Mexico work I believed it was LEE who had traveled to Mexico for a number of compelling reasons. Over the past months I come to find that it is possible that LEE was in a car with others going to and from Mexico City - it is alos possible it was not Lee and possible that no one took this trip. It is also most likely that the person the travel is attributed to is not the same person pretending to be Oswald on Sept 27th.

Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0418a.htm at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him.
Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother?
Mr. PIC - That is correct.

So okay Lee, you can point to minutia that you say does not support the H&L conclusion.

I feel like I can point to and show mountains of significant evidence which proves it correct.

I ask people like Greg to read the book so he can address the topic with some credibility and intelligence, not to spout off ideas he has about doctors in 1945 or school records he cannot comprehend. I do not dismiss his arguments for lack of reading the book - but for lack of substance and source. Whenever he does offer a source - it's wrong and/or does not address the rebuttal he offers. (the boy had a tonsilectomy while the dead man has intact tonsils... did they grow back? well, maybe, if that was the one and only singular piece of evidence which creates a conflict between the boy born Lee Oswald and the man Ruby killed - but it's not. and just like PM by the doorway possibly being Oswald, we use ALL the evidence, not just Brennan's who supposedly puts him in the window and then we call it a done deal)

Lee - NYC - he starts school on March 23, 1953 and ends in June. He is at YOUTH HOUSE from April 15 to May 8: 18 school days he is not at PS44 (which btw there were 3 of in NYC at the time, Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx - do you know which one Oswald went to?) The school records show he attends 109 3/2 days and is absent 15 3/2 days. Total 124 6/2 or 127 days.

Count forward 127 school days from March 23rd Lee. Count backward from June 26th 127 school days.

The most important and controversial time in Oswald's young life - he is just picked up and moved to NYC - and this big, gregarious, leader of boys becomes someone totally different. Shorter, meaner, a loner, a thinker.

I will consider any alternative that is supported by some level of evidence or fact...

One final word and I'd like to hear your thoughts...

CE1384 p699 http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0365a.htm is the Permanent Record of Oswald's NYC school career. Except the CE1384 sticker is not on this copy...

Below are the three PERM records from NYC schools for Oswald offered as evidence.

CE1384 does not match the initial "Perm" record in the middle either. The one on the right is the copy Armstrong found at the Archives...Any reason we have an exhibit in the WCR which not only does not have its designation as an exhibit but is not even on the same form - even though all the information appears to have been copied verbatim.

A reasonable explanation with some supporting info would be appreciated. That "mistakes are made" does not account for the wholesale copying of a perm record. More interesting to me is that the middle record would have simply been added to over time - yet the copy on the left side's first column of info is not written in the same hand and the teacher's names from form to form are not the same - among a number of differences.

What's much more important are the conflicts with the multiple Oswalds later, after 1962 when they return from Russia. During the summer of 1963 an Oswald is in New Orleans and in Dallas - one has a paper trail, one does not. One also wonders why the kid from the South has completely lost his twang while only having lived in NY for 18 months and the rest of the time back in the south.

One wonders.

Terry Martin,

I believe the Secret Service is suspect in the killing of JFK. Recent revelations about the behavior of Secret Service officers lead me to believe certain SS officers always have thought themselves to be above the regulations governing their behavior.

The behavior of the SS on 11-22-63 in Dallas has perplexed me. Negligence? Duplicity? Both? I don't know.

Dealey Plaza was an ambush. The killing took place in an ambush zone. It had all the marks of a military ambush, carried out by skilled assassins.

The Secret Service may have been duplicitous. Surely it was had. And like any bureaucracy, it would have wanted to cover up its shortcomings.

You should definitely get Vince Palamara's book then if you want to dig deeper into the SS. (I've had it since it was a group of free pdfs many, many moons ago)

Something worth remembering Jon - when the trail of CE399, the magic bullet, was rechecked, they asked each person who handled the bullet to identify it since no one at the SS, DPD, Parkland Security or FBI thought it important enough to authenticate this evidence by marking it as they got it. but that did not happen.

The first mark is that of the three FBI analysts - Frasier, Cunningham and Killion - after the bullet is provided them.

Yet in every case until SS Chief Rowley hands a bullet to Elmer Todd to bring to Frazier CE399 was NOT IDENTIFIED AS THE BULLET HANDLED...

CE399 only comes into existence when Secret Service Chief Rowley, working for Treasury Sec Clarence Dillon, hands a bullet to Todd.

Rowley claims that the bullet he was handed by Agent Johnson was not CE399 - yet Todd, who the evidence says handed Frazier bullet C1 which becomes CE399, did get that same bullet from Rowley.

Rowley also recieved a print of the Zfilm from Max Philips during the evening of Nov 22 a full day before it hits Dino at NPIC.

Without the SS getting out of the way, offering the all clear "no threats in Dallas" ok, and stealing the body from Parkland, the cover-up does not occur.

If Rose does the autopsy - the cover-up is over.

Greer basically abandons the ambulance with the empty casket and runs to the morgue just before 7pm. It's another hour before the autopsy officially starts.

The SS keeps the FBI out of the anti-room for over an hour.

and by the way - both the SS and Immigration & Naturalization Service are under the Dept/Sec of the Treasury. just sayin.

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION

ON THE ASSASSINATION OF

PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Charles L. Killion, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, and testimonies of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, ,before the President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.

I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's and Mr. Frazier's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier and Mr. Cunningham.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C .

(S) Charles L. Killion,

CHARLES L, KILLION

Speaking of the SS, FBI, Bullets and a cover-up. This is during the autopsy...

Where IS that other bullet that was lodged behind his ear?

How can you expect people to buy into your theory if you can't answer such a basic question?

--Tommy

First off there were others even before John who considered the idea of two Oswalds.

Secondly - it's not "my theory" - it's the result of looking at the evidence, 10 years of independent research and correlating the two.

Finally - the entire CT community cannot answer the question - WHO SHOT JFK yet you want chapter and verse on how a potential CIA/Angleton-based long term plan was initiated and carried out.

Maybe they knew these two boys would look alike for some other reason... after 1957 the only photo of LEE is the 1959 passport photo... the 1962 Thanksgiving photo among a host of others did not convince his brother that he was visiting with his brother LEE.

The truly do not look that much alike Tommy - they look more like their younger selves than each other.

The shoulders give it away... Lee's were much more sloped than Harvey's.

Again Tommy - I have yet to see you post anything that resembles work related to your conclusion that they looked so much alike - and how did they do it...

When I do work on it I repeatedly find that basic bone structure does not match

One of the more famous examples of being "handled" is the FPCC leafing at the ITM in New Orleans...

Everyone involved had intelligence backgrounds... the man Oswald pays a few dollars to hand out flyers is an informant Charles Steele Jr

The office where the flyers were kep - Bannister and Ferrie

The men who fake the fight - Cubans associated with Bannister - all anti Castro while their man Oswald hands out FPCC flyers to garner names of sympathizers - classic FBI.

Reily coffee was a CIA front

Mexico City. Period.

Ruth and Michael Paine are so "associated" as to be nauseating - Quaker Friends and cabinets of Cuban sympathizers

DeMohren and friends as Brian notes.

Shelley at the TSBD - Manager of the Misc. and ex intel

Oswald the cuban/soviet commie was imo designed to scare the piss out of anyone wanting to dig. If Johnson says it was a commie plot let's go get Castro - they may have. That they didn't and never again bothered with Cuba, that the Russians did not return missles to the island is pretty indicative that the plan all along with to keep prying eyes away and get rid of JFK.

A study of what occurs in the USA since then should convince anyone that CUBA had little if anything to do with what the MICC needed to have happen to JFK and what wealth and propserity followed - completely without the need to remove a communist from the Western Hemisphere

Was There a Set-up Distinct from the Cover-up?

That's the title of this diary. I asked the question in order to sharpen my thinking on the assassination. I don't give a rip here whether John Armstrong is right or wrong. The question goes to facts, not the interpretation of facts.

I'm of a mind that Oswald was being closely watched (notice the vague passive voice) in 1963. And that he was so good at playing a role that could be labeled "lone nut" or "commie", take your choice, no one had to set him up.

Many here believe [a] Oswald was an intelligence agent, and Oswald was set up to take the fall. This is conventional wisdom.

The truth about the JFK assassination is not to be found in conventional wisdom. The hit on JFK was planned very carefully. Those who offed JFK were sure of the cover-up. Only by accepting these premises, in my opinion, can one find the one path to truth.

Jon,

John doesn't care what you think of his conclusions either - he only cares that you look closely at the Evidence and see what it tells you - as a whole.

Oswald does not hand out FPCC flyers on his own. He is used by Bannister and associates along with friends at Reily Coffee around the corner.

You make a most important point: "those who offed JFK were sure of the cover-up"

Being "sure" requires some very key people to be in on it or being so strong that it simply didn't matter.

If JFK dies in Chicago and Vallee is the Patsy - how does that affect the "set-up" of Oswald and what it meant?

The got rid of Bolden, Yates, Craig, and a slew of others who somehow had touched upon the conspiracy.

Why Oswald as opposed to any number of people working at the TSBD?

In the face of these obvious lies, Oswald was guilty, then killed so all we'd ever get is one side of the story.

He was positioned to be acceptable as a patsy should the occassion arise while insuring a level of cooperation via the leverage of knowledge.

One of the real questions to ponder is why Cuba as a target was dropped so quickly in the Johnson administration if one of the main points of using Oswald was to facilitate invasion - IMO that was NEVER part of the equation unless they were lucky enough for it to have gone that way - yet he was switched to LONE NUT so fast and Cuba was dropped for Vietnam so fast that it seems to me the one and only reason for all of this was to remove JFK from office.

Those in charge would never be caught, and they never were.