David Josephs

Well done Mark... my mistake..

Now what about all the rest of the post...? When CHAMBERS arrives at DPD and starts working with the hobos he is informed by JONES that Oswald has been caught and they are FREE TO GO...

He never sees them again...

Yet his name is on their arrest reports

The three all claim to have been there until the 26th then released

How can they be going back and forth and back to Decker while CHAMBERS is with them between the time Tippit is killed and Oswald is caught...

when the photos of the men are taken between 2:20 and 2:30?

I'll deal with you when I have more time later today.

Can you include sources, links and/or the evidence from which you come to any conclusions... ?

Better yet, go read the work first... or will we be given your opinionated attack-rhetoric based on what you think I said and what you think the evidence is rather than doing your homework first?

Why not ask Jim D if you can prepare a review and critique of the 6 articles? that way you can not read it and make it up as you go along to the CTKA crowd as well

.

David Josephs: Just a question, nothing more. Assuming Marina's husband did not travel to M.C. at the end of September 1963 and went to Houston instead (as I think you've written), what do you think he did for the time period he was supposedly in M.C.? Thanks.

I cover some of this in pt 6 of the Mexico series at CTKA which just now was posted.... http://www.ctka.net/2015/chapter6_3c.pdf

On Sept 24th FBI NOLA sent in a report to Hoover (page 3) related to the the earlier August reports about his arrest down there.

The next report generated by the FBI which does not rely on CIA reports related to Mexico is Kaack's on Oct 31st (page 11)

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10413&relPageId=2

The FBI, on it's own, does not know where Oswald is... or as I discuss in the paper... he went to Odio and the FBI either knows and does not say, or simply does not know where he is during the time in question.

The EVIDENCE offers that a Harvey Oswald was in Austin at the SSS office on Sept 25th... what I said about Houston was that the FBI made the assumption that he took a bus which was not identified until Sept 64 and then backdated to Dec 10th 1963... a 12:20 bus from NOLA to Houston for which there are no records or evidence. The Twifords claim he called their house between 7-10pm yet this bus does not arrive until closer to 11pm. The story of the man in Houston buying a ticket from HAMMETT is also an interesting one... and begs the question as to why Oswald would buy tickets one at a time for an innocent trip to Mexico City when 3 and 4 part tickets were available taking him all the way there.

As to what he was doing... the EVIDENCE suggests he traveled with two Cubans thru Austin and visits Odio in the evening of the 27th.

On Sept 28th we have a Sports Drome sighting in the Evidence. Who this is, as I've said many times now, is not really the point... the testimony it was Oswald remains...

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=44&relPageId=378

Liebeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD?

Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range.

Liebeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963?

Price: Yes

The FBI's initial report WCD1 states that the FBI received reports that someone possibly identical to Lee Harvey Oswald had been in Mexico (page 12).

It takes the FBI until Nov 1st to find, via Ruth Paine, that he had been working at the TSBD and living at some unknown location in Dallas - no mention of him staying with her, which he had since Oct 4th..

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57690&relPageId=178

If you would go read the work you will see that the FBI uses its own sources to see if Oswald was in Mexico.

On the 4th, 6th and 8th of Nov reports come in that none of the sources in Mexico City has any information related to Oswald having been seen or contacting anyone in the Cuban/Russian Communist communities. The Nov 8th report discusses a check at the Gobernacion (FBI's asset OCHOA works here) and yet again... negative results for Oswald. OCHOA (and his dept) will be the source for all the travel evidence the FBI secures on Oswald...

On page 44 of the article we see that once again the FBI's sources in Mexico City cannot find any proof Oswald was there - this report is dated 11/23 - and is followed on page 46 with the CIA report from Win Scott (Willard C Curtis) to CIA HQ laying out the CIA's story which never changed...

He is positively identified by Odio and her sister as the man who came to their home... and she narrowed the date down to the 26th, 27th or 28th.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?

Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?

Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. (26^th was a Thursday and a travel day, while CIA reports place an Oswald in Mexico on the 27^th and 28^th)

On Nov 27th CHAPMAN reports that they are aware Oswald made a long distance call to Irving on Oct 4th from Dallas...

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=742220

Other than that, I have found no physical evidence from the FBI which hints at where they thought he was during that time other than the mountain of fraudulent evidence which changes numerous times between discovery and the final determination of his trip...

Just like to add that Charles Wallace came up with this matter in 2005.

Titled: Oswald cleared in JFK shooting!

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/6l5ghlbDuxY

Thanks to Ed Ledoux for the link

It appears that CW was referring to the Lovelady character if you read the first post on that page... not the last.

CW has to make this assumption: which I do not see any evidence for in those frames... and we all know that PM is still in the dark corner at the same time

The opening frames of Wiegman show

Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvary at the traffic light pole and in the same

frame Oswald is standing on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD

entrance way.

Please explain the significance of Wise not seeing something happen.

Your #34 is incorrect Mark... which is now #32. Wise brings the men to DECKER not FRITZ when he starts to feel "ashamed and guilty"

The last WISE knows these men are with Decker and then released while at 4pm according to CHAMBERS arrest reports, these three men are being booked - half-assed as it may be...

There is no physical evidence which connects the men in the DP photos to the men on CHAMBERS' arrest reports.

1. 32. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.
3. 38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.
4. and then all you say is that the tramps were escorted outside of Wise's presence...

What happened to the part of the report that states:

"WISE was told by a deputy that the three had been released"

DECKER's COUNTY jail and the DPD CITY Jail are not the same thing Mark.

The information on the shooting of Tippit occurs WHEN? 40 minutes (or so) after the assassination so about 1:15pm

When they get to the DPD and CHAMBERS is assigned these hobos just after this info is heard, the timing appears to be BEFORE the DP tramp photos are even taken...

Neither Jones or Grinell write a report related to these men being detained let alone arrest reports written & signed by CHAMBERS.

CHAMBERS does not even confirm this yet they are found, incomplete as they are, in the DPD archives years later... hmmmm.

JONES comes in to tell CHAMBERS they arrested a suspect - WHEN does that occur Mark? BEFORE 2pm if I remember correctly. In fact isn't Oswald back at the DPD before 2:30?

1:53 15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert) Do you have the suspect arrested in the TexasTheater?

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Yes, sir. Him and his gun.

CHAMBERS says he is then told to let them go.

Didn't we conclude the DP photos are taken after 2:30?

In 1966, a JFK assassination researcher, Richard E. Sprague, came across seven unpublished newspaper photographs that had been taken in Dealey Plaza between 2:20 and 2:30pm on 22 November 1963. http://22november1963.org.uk/three-tramps-in-dealey-plaza

Can you help me understand this conflict?

Ray -

I do not post that I think it is the black man's arm - do I?

I left that uncolored because even though it looks like the same material as Lovelady's shirt - and does appear to be his arm... it simply looks unnatural and cut off as BA observed.

We agree that the white of the sirt of the man behind him does butt up against his shoulder

Here is an extreme close-up of the white shirt, cheek and shoulder and a version farther back with more contrast

The shadow on the left shoulder comes from where?

(btw - due respect to the image makers here... most of what I post is my work. I try to give credit where due if I post other's work - sometimes I don't know the source)

CIA transcripts of an encounter does not prove this man was Oswald - regardless of whether the CIA or Greg places his name before the quotes...

But this is REAL testimony:

Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately-I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald.

The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young man, considerably younger, and a fuller face

------

Mr. CORNWELL. What differences were there?

Senor AZCUE. Many differences . The individual who visited the consulate is one whose physiognomy or whose face I recall very 'clearly . He had a hard face. He had very straight eyebrows, cold, hard, and straight eyes. His cheeks were thin. His nose was very straight and pointed. This gentleman looks like he is somewhat heavier, more filled, his eyes are at an angle with the outside of his eye, at an angle with his face. I would have never identified him or recognized him.

I believe I can recall with fairly good accuracy the individual in such a way that I could recognize him now in a group of 100, that is better than a photograph of him because obviously during a period of 15 years he might change. I think I could recognize him, and this is not him.

While I know you WISH GP had done his homework he consistently falls short when it comes to sources and corroboration.

CORNWELL - During this period was your normal work week, did it include Saturdays?

Tirado- Yes.

Cornwell - Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday morning?

TIRADO - No.

CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that?

TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him.

CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes (sic) you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you?

TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered.

CORNWELL - Did Azcue work on Saturdays?

TIRADO - Yes, we used to work in the office but not for the public.

CORNWELL - Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at the corner near number seven on your diagram on Saturdays?

TIRADO - Excuse me?

CORNWELL - Was there a doorman out near the area that you marked as number seven, on the diagram?

TIRADO - Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ...

CORNWELL - Never let people in.

TIRADO - No.

This after the DFS interrogates her.

This after the CIA on the 20th of Dec tells us that they will NOT use the tap transcripts but Duran's statements to prove Oswald was there the 28th and Oct 1st.

One wonders which statements the CIA was referring to...

===========

Ok... so you post more CIA transcripts... He fails to mention this person is speaking terrible Russian and Spanish... both of which do not describe Oswald.

Secondly, it is the Russia man who suggests it may be Kostikov. and then it is Win Scott who, in the Oct 16th cable assumes it to be Kostikov.

Does GP offer links to the source documents from which he lifts this Mark? I do: https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=12648&relPageId=3

I'll get in contact with Bill Simpich who basically has written the book on what occurs between the 27th and 4th... not my focus...

I show that the FBI evidence of the trip is a fraud supported by the fact that other than these calls and the hotel registry (also obtained by OCHOA) Oswald did not exist in Mexico City.

Can you explain how what GP wrote here proves that our Oswald is that Oswald when the two people he supposedly interacted with contradict the CIA's info?

In one angle, he appears right next to the man... in another a good 5+ feet to the east

??

Just a quick question (not to divert the topic but slightly related to it) but doesn't anyone else (unless there are visual elements I am unaware of in photography which I admit, may be quite a handful) see the oddity in Lovelady's extremely "slanted" or cut left shoulder in the Altgen's photo? Please tell me I am missing something.

BA - I have yet to find where your observations are not some of the finest offered on this forum...

I'll add - Or how it appears that Lovelady's arm is in FRONT of the black man who we know was well west and closer to the camera...

David Josephs,

I agree with you that Marina's husband never went to Mexico City.

You are the best IMO on this point.

Thanks.

Well, Jon, if even Greg agrees with the majority "Never in Mexico" contingent here, then I must ask about it.

I'll begin with you, Jon. In the face of the Lopez Report, what are your arguments to deny that OSWALD was in Mexico City?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul -

The Lopez Report started with the assumption that the WCR got it right in their assumption that Oswald was there - so they did not bother to investigate all the problems with the evidence getting him there and back...

This is why I focused on this travel evidence and come to find that it is a complete fraud.

Whoever Duran/Azcue sees on the 27th, they both deny it was the Oswald Ruby killed and that this person ever came back again.

and Paul, regarding Bannister's anti-Castro cell working for Walker - you'll need more than IMHO to get any traction there.

By the summer of 63 most of these groups were arrested or disbanded... They would need much more protection than Walker to continue to operate.

You need to get him to Mexico Paul... prove he was really there and address the workings of the FBI and a lawyer named OCHOA... and the evidence.

Been at it over 6 months - maybe take a minute and read the work at CTKA... give you a new POV on what the CIA did to the FBI related to Mexico City

and then what the FBI did to create the story.. or you can keep offering IMHO type conclusions....

I'm so glad to hear someone has the answers.

Set the world on fire.

34. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK.

38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail.

39. Wise felt as if he had wasted the entire day with the three tramps.

David Josephs,

Many thanks for your response.

You write:

"Again, I don't know that the question is what did he do that he didn't want to, but what actions did he take which were arranged for him to take and why."

You assume Oswald (Marina's husband) took actions that some third party arranged for him to take. Perhaps handing out leaflets in New Orleans. Or going to the Soviet Union. Maybe, I don't know, going to Mexico City.

As a former C.I. officer, I ask, who directed him to take such actions? And why did he take such actions?

Jon (and anyone willing to see the conspiracy for what it was)

Lee Harvey Oswald was NEVER in Mexico City.

Lee Harvey Oswald visited Sylvia Odio on Sept 27th and remained in the Dallas area until the 4th of October.

Someone - either Harvey or someone impersonating him - was at the SportsDrome leaving the impression that Lee Oswald was using an Italian scoped rifle firing 6.5mm rounds - and making sure that he would be remembered.

Lee Harvey Oswald was with his family at the Paines when a Lee Oswald was at the SportsDrome leaving a self-incriminating impression

Lee Harvey Oswald was at his rooming house the weekend before the assassination when a Lee Oswald was leaving a self-incriminating impression at the SportsDrome

Ms. Lorenz claims the she, Sturgis, Oswald and others traveled from Florida to Dallas arriving that weekend.

On Friday, November 15^th a number of interesting events occur. This becomes the one and only weekend between the time Oswald starts work at the TSBD and the assassination where Oswald does not travel home with Wesley Buell Frasier. It is also on this day that the story of Marita Lorenz places her in a caravan with Frank Sturgis, Lee Oswald and other Cubans

This is also the date, according to testimony by Maria Lorenz, [Castro’s ex-mistress who has now become involved with Frank Sturgis ], that she rides to Dallas from Miami in a two-car caravan with Bosch, Sturgis, Diaz Lanz, Gerry Hemming, the “Novo brothers” (possibly Ignacio and Guillermo Novo of the Cuban Nationalist Movement), and Lee Harvey Oswald. There are several rifles and scopes in their Dallas motel rooms, and Jack Ruby comes by. Lorenz says she returns to Miami around November 19 or 20. (Ira Wood Chrono)

.

I will end the discussion of Mexico here. Whether Lorenz's story is true is to be debated - the dates she claims and that someone known to those there as Lee Oswald is firing a scoped rifle that weekend cannot.

==================

One very strong possibility as to who directed these actions could be the man who would have answered the collect call to John Hurt which Oswald attempted to place.

His involvement at Reily Coffee and Bannister/Ferrie/Shaw/Martin etc... suggests that he may ahve been directed by them yet at the same time if he was instead working on behalf of the FBI to infultrate organizations such as these his orders would be coming from elsewhere to "do as they instruct you to and get as close as possible"

We are to please remember that after the Missle Crisis the US government cracked down on the very organizations it helped build to infultrate and kill Castro.

That was October 1962. By the summer of 1963 most of the splintered groups had been reigned in except for a select few operating under the radar and under CIA direct control...

The FBI would be the Level 1 attack dogs to find out who was still operating against the wishes of the President... Infultration and reporting was one of their main activities leading to the arrest and scattering to the wind of these operations. Yet Bannister, Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw, etc... are still operating, almost without concern for the ongoing crackdowns.

It seems to me that Killing Castro had risen to a point above Executive approval and was now a matter of not allowing the softy in the White House to dictate to us how to deal with Communism in our own backyard.

Maybe Oswald was set-up simply bacause he had stumbled upon one of the better "get Castro" organizations - Bannister's - and by default, the activities which appear as if he was WITH the pro-Castro forces serves to add to his incrimination of a Phase 1 plot. Since all concerned are aware that he is actually an FBI plant in their "get Castro" organziation he is put on the short list for those who could be easily framed for the murder of JFK, if and when it came to that.

Any heavily anti-Communist members of the Sponsor-Facilitator-Mechanic groups (and most were) viewed JFK in a very treasonous light - which would make for a perfect excuse to get the cooperation of the key individuals needed.

We talked about WHY he was killed and I replied that it mattered where in the food chain you were - yet the underlying theme was always his perceived treason. (25th amendment to the Constitution) While we both agree that the Sponsor level was more concerned with dollars... military, drug, commerce.

Section 4.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President

Since there are simply too many things we do not know and for which the evidence is long gone, I do not believe we can say who directed him... if they did this correctly, it's a name we've never heard or one so obvious that we simple cannot see it. Spending time on details like who direct Oswald still does not remove the trouble we have with non-assassination related work he performed that gets used to implicate him or control the investigation when it becomes necessary.

Isn't thorough contingency planning the hallmark of successful CI Jon? Creating scenarios which allow multiple uses and interpretations would have to be incorporated into our thinking of the planning of this crime.

It doesn't matter who ran him... it matters that he was run.

We will not know what his motivation was - we cannot possibly - we can guess... but to what end?

The same exact evils which were discovered by Church in '75 is what Snowden found today... only more grand, more sophisticated and more detrimental to humanity.

We have reached the point where we KNOW the Military, Industrial, Congressional Complex, with the aid of the Bankers and Lawyers they employ, have succeeded in creating US and THEM.

US are most happy when our favorite TV show is on, when the cops leave us alone, when the individual vices and enjoyments of life can be explored.

THEM are most happy when US are doing these things... and most disturbed when JFK, MLK, RFK and so many unnamed people think it their right and purpose to stop THEM from their divine right to use the Tragedy of the Commons and the hope for a better humanity against US.

Evil beats good... THEM beats US because they don't buy into the hope of humanity building a better world - they simply want, as Scarface puts it -

The WORLD and EVERYTHING in it.

And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event.

It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza.

Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor.

Brilliant.

Being honest here, no ill will intended. I really believe you have the kind of thinking process that actively looks for complicated, and unnecessary, solutions to the most basic questions. I don't believe it's possible to convince you you're wrong, or even to encourage you to consider alternatives. You have a world view and it creates bias in your research, imo. Of course there are far too many off-kilter elements to this case than any one person can name. But I think certain kinds of thinkers take it one or a hundred steps too far and create untenable theories they cannot be persuaded away from. You are in step with Cinque, Fetzer and Baker; I can't go there.

PS: David, there's nothing in that previous post of mine that you can logically refute. Unless you claim that the documents have been altered.

Mark -

No ill will in the least... If you'd allow me... you sound like Bugliosi trying to convince us that this simple little matter need not be as complicated as Conspiracy Theorists insist.

I did not go looking for two sets of tramps... I went and acquired all the evidence I could find that was offered about these men and looked to see what it told me.

Billy Bass's statement to the HSCA recounts how Officer Vaughn was intimately involved in the finding and "arresting" of the men on the train. (Image below)

Vaughn is a DPD officer, not a sheriff. Vaughn's reports only deal with the killing of Oswald. Vaughn's WC testimony only deals with the killing of Oswald.

He is not asked a single question about what we read in Bass' report.

Billy Bass was not called to testify nor are there any reports citing him as author in the DPD documents database.

There are no reports at all using the term "Train" or "Tramps" related to the railroad yard and the ONLY reports in DPD files are those signed by CHAMBERS

Link BOX FOLDER ITEM DOC_TYPE DOC_DATE PRIMAUTH QUALITY ABSTRACT 02 01 015 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Original Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 02 01 016 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Carbon Copy Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 03 20 002 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 C. M. Barnhart Carbon Copy Annotated Arrest report concerning a man walking on the railroad tracks 03 20 005 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 006 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 007 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 05 02 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 15 01 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Poor Quality Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination

CHAMBERS is a Dallas Policeman, not a Sheriff under Decker.

MIDDLETON, named by WISE, was not involved as his interview report states at the very bottom of this post.

The interviews of Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle all confirm the information on the CHAMBERS arrest sheets - that they were in jail at the CITY JAIL where Oswald was kept and that they were released on the 26th. There is no evidence related to these three arrest reports that connects these mento the three men WISE, BASS, VAUGHN or DECKER were involved with at the SHERIFF's office.

Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle were not fingerprinted or photographed in the process of their incarceration.

Wise tells the FBI that a deputy sheriff tells him that the three men were released in an unusual way, thru the Main entrance as he did not see them leave

Mark - this is the best that I can do. If you cannot see the rampant duplicity that exists within the evidence, one set to incriminate, one set of what really happened which fades into history (from rifles, to shell casings, to wallets, to locations of arrest, to means of travel.... and in most every area of the case one cares to look closely... I am truly sorry.

If 1, 2 or all 3 of these men pictured was involved with what happened to JFK... and Decker was one of the key players in making sure the real perps were never caught (which I believe he was) the notion that he let them go from the Sheriff's office while records are later found in the DPD archives related to the three men named (although completely contrary to SOP yet accepted as genuine) I cannot then find a way to adquately express what I found by cross checking the stories and presenting the reality of the situation as I DISCOVERED it...

Again... I was not looking for this... the Evidence SCREAMS it - if one was to drop the filters of "too complicated" "why would it" & "makes no sense" and embrace the CONSPIRACY with an open mind and the understanding that we have no flippin idea the number of minute details involved from the POV of the planners of such an event - I think you will find, as I have been saying all along,

that the Evidence IS the Conspiracy and simply not indicative of any of the real events which took place.

DJ

And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event.

It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza.

Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor.

Brilliant.

TOMMY, TOMMY...

As usual, You miss the entire point of the discussion. The men Wise parade around are not the three men in jail from the 22nd to the 26th but the men in the photos.

The three men processed by Chambers are the three you keep naming. We do not know who the men in the photos are, but many offer guesses from Holt, Sturgis, Harrelson, Hunt, and anyone else that may fit the bill.

What we do know is Harkness confirms that more than the three in those photos were taken from the trains... And what Chambers and Beck prove is that the men they are involved with are not the same as who Wise & initially Bass walk thru DP and eventually hand over to Decker.

So sorry this remains such a mystery to you... Your disingenuous salutation and backhanded compliments notwithstanding.

Btw, you still use the word incorrectly both grammatically and syntacticly.

Namaste

I was reading those reports and writing about the tramps and analyzing those photos years before you learned how to turn on a computer.

That you chose the quotes and did not include an explanation regarding Chambers simply shows the quality of your work.

That you cannot see the difference between the men in the photos and the story as told by your three tramps, is well, expected.

In your attempt at humor at my expense you use the word "paranoid" incorrectly. You didn't include Chambers or Jones since you cannot connect them to the three men in the images from DP.

We're all sorry you have so much trouble following along but you reading one report and calling it research is par for the Graves course of just enough to sound like you did the work but not enough to know what you're talking about.

Thanks for trying though... now post something witty with sunshine TOMMY and let the adults get back to work.

Bankers and Lawyers Bob.

Nations, countries, sovereignty is really of no matter. Human greed meets Darwin... Pick any moment in the last 5000 years and prove it wrong..

And don't forget... You want fries with that?

That's sweet and all Graves. But the name Chambers, who booked the three men is not mentioned once in your narrative. Each of the three real hobos' arrest reports are signed by Chambers.

Capt Jones also doesn't appear in the Wise narrative, but do in Chambers'.

The name Wise does not appear with any of the EVIDENCE of their arrest and incarceration.

Why is that Graves?

And if you actually read the post you'd know Oswald was with them in the cell area. Was Oswald ever in the Sheriff's office or building Graves?

And you can't be more wrong.

Wise brought them to Decker and they disappeared. The three smelly REAL hobos were at the DPD with Jones and Chambers And were in jail in the DPD with Oswald.

The sheriff's office with Decker is not the DPD building. One is county, one is city.

If you'd rather hold your breath until your opinion trumps the evidence, have at it. I'm done discussing this with you.

Yes I am Mark... And you're wrong.

Lying to deceive the public is dishonorable

Curious Jon... would you consider FDR's lying about Pearl Harbor being a "surprise" attack which kick-started our war effort and helped end Hitler and Yamamoto, dishonorable?

As opposed to LBJ lying about the Gulf of Tonkin which was most certainly dishonorable.

Going along to get along....

As Creshaw said...(I para-phrase) if they killed the POTUS what do you think they'd do to me.

Look at the careers of those who cooperated. Then ask Bolden how things went, or Craig.

LBJ mentioned something about the CIA running a "Murder, Inc" in south and latin America.

Anyone with any amount of savvy who touched the assassination quickly saw what was going on.

I truly doubt that Spector and the others wanted to believe that their own government could do such a thing... the ethnocentricity of Americans borders on the insane... and then Dulles has a book pushed which shows how each and every assassination in american history was the work of a Lone Nut... no such thing as political assassination in the good ole US of A...

From Fonzi's The Last Investigation: Remember now, this is from 40 years ago.

At the time, Schweiker was a member of what was officially named the Select Committee To Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities, headed by Idaho Senator Frank Church. The Church Committee, as it became known in the press, had been making deadlines (sic - headlines) since early in the year by revealing how the FBI abused its power by harassing dissident political groups and conducting illegal investigations, how the CIA, Army Intelligence and the National Security Agency were involved in domestic snooping and how the intelligence agencies had planned assassination attempts on foreign leaders. For Schweiker, despite his long stints in both houses of Congress, these were eye-opening revelations. "I've learned more about the inner workings of government in the past nine months than in my 15 previous years in Congress," he later told a reporter.

Schweiker had never been moved to take a special interest in the details of the Kennedy assassination. He had assumed, as did most Americans then, that the Warren Commission Report reflected a comprehensive, objective investigation. He had never had the inclination to critically question the Report closely because that inclination would have had to include the assumption that certain government officials and agencies could have been involved in at the very least a cover-up. Schweiker did not want to believe that. However, when the Church Committee discovered that United States Government officials -- specifically, CIA agents -- had made alliances with the Mafia and other members of Organized Crime in planning assassination, Schweiker was traumatically shaken. "That was so repugnant and shocking to me that I did a backflip on any number of things," he later recalled.

David Josephs,

I defer to your knowledge of Oswald and Mexico City but not your knowledge of how intelligence operations work.

FWIW, I've not believed Marina's husband traveled to Mexico City. So I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I do not believe Marina's husband was a puppet. I may be wrong, but I view his actions as voluntary.

What, in your opinion, did Marina's husband do that he did not want to do?

Thanks. Respect as always.

I was under the impression the question was whether Oswald was who he made himself appear to be... which I do not believe he ever fully did.

His motivation for doing this or that is completely unknown.

Why was he handing out pro-Castro flyers while working for anti-castro FBI/CIA related "agents" (I use this term loosely)

Is it possible he was enticed to use HIDELL to order rifles for Dodd or some other reason which could be used against him later?

A higher paying job was available yet he winds up working at the TSBD... by October the busy season for school books has died down - being able to resurface all the floors does not occur when everyone needs to be busy shipping books. Wesley's sister is the one who mentions to Ruth that her brother's work was looking for people... this was not true yet Ruth supposedly calls

So the two people who place a paper bag in the man's hands are the ones who lead him to the job in the first place...

Mrs. PAINE - And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked. Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--

Again, I don't know that the question is what did he do that he didn't want to, but what actions did he take which were arranged for him to take and why. We've had this discussion before Jon. The activities which after the fact look like he was being set up as a patsy are moot if JFK is killed in Chicago or Tampa yet are conveniently available to be twisted into incriminating him in a cuban/communist plot to kill JFK. When that plot is simply no longer an option (or was all along a way to keep anyone important from looking too closely) these activites are no longer front and center...

He was ALONE. He was placed in Mexico ALONE even though the CIA's evidence put him squarely in the midst of a Castro backed plot to kill JFK.

The Secret Service / FBI claimed there was no connection between Oswald and Ruby, Oswald and Bannister, Oswald and Ferrie, Oswald and anyone in intelligence related activity. Which we know was all false.

In the final assessment I believe that he was used with the potential of his being the patsy from the time the assassination was planned... when and who that involves is the big question and one I also have tried to address.

I can guarantee that VALLEE would be the famous name and the Lone Nut with all the related evidence and testimony and incrimination needed to make the case stick in the minds of those who cared to look.

The transition from Phase 1 Castro-Commie to Phase 2 Lone Nut is one of the most significant aspects of the conspiracy and happens VERY quickly between LBJ, his cronies and advisors and Hoover.

The CIA and Military wanted to bomb Cuba off the face of the earth...

That was either part of the leverage for the plan or was thwarted by decisions made very soon after the killing... BUNDY calls AF-1 to say it was Oswald and no conspiracy... this is recounted by a number of people although no physical evidence of this exists.

BUNDY.... within 2 hours of the killing... if this is true it would seem to me that the secondary reasons for everything Oswald is LED to do since his return from Russia is to insure that no one argues with this LONE NUT set-up.

Sincerely...

DJ

We seriously must remember that what is recorded in the reports of the DPD and FBI, along with the published WCR testimony is

NOT necessarily what was said.

Testimony was reviewed and rewitten in the galleys before the final publishing... if expert FBI testimony could be rewritten, ANYONE's testimony could be rewritten.

The "Final" FBI/DPD reports were most definitely "santized" to focus on the incrimination of Oswald. That's why corroborating reports of the same event are hardly ever found together but are spread out over thousands of pages.

Anyone can go to the witnesses page and scroll to the bottom of each testimony and see that few if any of these key witnesses reviewed and signed their testimony..

Spending as much time with the documents/evidence as I have over the last 15 years I know for a fact that there is no guaranteed relationship between what we see published and what was actually said

----------------

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one.
Mr. SHELLEY. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful busy down there is the reason I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and initial them. That's all, and thank you.
Mr. SHELLEY. All right; thank you.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---
Mr. LOVELADY - I want this to be the final one.
Mr. BALL - All right; you waive signature?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Thanks very much.

Mr. BALL - I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN - Anything from you, Senator?
Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying before the Commission.
Mr. FRAZIER - Thank you, Mr. Warren.

Mr. DULLES - Any further questions?
Thank you very much, Officer Baker. Your testimony has been very helpful.

Mr. BELIN - Miss ADAMS, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?
Miss ADAMS - I think I will let you use your own discretion.
Mr. BELIN - It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.
Miss ADAMS - That is all right.

Mr. BALL. She writes this up. Then if you wish, you can come in, read it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.
Mr. ARCE. I guess you all could send it on to the Commission.
Mr. BALL. And you waive signature?
Mr. ARCE. Yes

Mr. BALL - That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you can waive your signature.
What do you want to do?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, whatever you want to do---it doesn't make any difference.