David Josephs

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Maybe take a second and reread Chambers' from above. Homicide Division, Forgery Dept, 3rd floor DPD by Fritz' office

Capt JONES... the entire sequence with your three tramps occurs at the DPD where Oswald was...

Decker is a sheriff... different place, different people.

Can you show me where WISE talks about Jones and the rest... COUNTY JAIL is Sheriff.

Just link or post the docs... you know, like I did.

thanks

The tramps were held for the DPD at the Sheriffs office.

Okay Mark... I guess you've dug into the evidence, read the testimonies, FBI reports, understand why the policemen in the photos are doing what they are and did everything you could to illustrate in a post why what I've offered as the Evidence for more than one set of tramps was incorrect...

Thanks for leaving no stone unturned...

oh... and that all the evidence in this case is so reliable and authentic why shouldn't we believe whatever is offered up for these three dirty, smelly hobos who were in jail until the 26th.

I got a bridge if you'd like a lease option to buy?

Nice Tommy - .. .

I made a mistake... thanks for paying attention.

I knew about Hungary and what Marina had said about Baltic yet misspoke by writing Eastern Russia..

DJ

Mark - So where in the story is DECKER and the sheriffs as told by Wise?

You have Bass, Wise and Harkness... Where's Chambers?

Those who believe Marina's husband worked for some country's intelligence service do not look at Oswald as would a trained C.I. officer. Yes, as I've written, Oswald would have been interesting at first glance to [a] a collection officer (case officer), and a counter-intelligence officer. He would have appeared to have lots of potential.

A C.I. officer, who would have been trained in deception detection, likely would have found Oswald the real deal. He did not attempt to deceive. He was who he told others he was.

The others might have tried to make use of him. But he was a poor puppet. Unless one was prepared to tell lies about him post-assassination. Which neither the CIA nor the FBI seemed willing to do about Mexico City.

Say what Jon? Everything about Mexico City was a lie... Everything.

An asset of the CIA, Alvarado, even tells the story of Oswald taking money from Castro related agents to kill JFK.

Helms finally has to step in to downplay that mess... Phillips was part of the interrogation and "lie-detector" tests... When Oswald becomes the Lone Nut Alvarado and every other link to Castro disappears.

He was the perfect puppet Jon... I truly do not see how you would be privy to the workings of Jesus Angleton and Richard Helms in the late 50's early 60's.

If you were or can explain how you would know what the planning processes of Angleton were - by all means... (You may wish to read Wilderness of Mirrors http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Mirrors-Deception-Destroyed-Important/dp/1585748242 if you haven't already)

Oswald was not who he told others he was... not by a long shot... those that studied him believe English was his 2nd language... that he spoke Russian with a distinct accent from eastern Russia

For your new thread Cliff....

The man who wrote "The Wise Men" was very pro eastern establishment and complimentary of these 6 men - Harriman being one of them.

Cabot Lodge was not exactly carrying out JFK's p[olicies in Vietnam... never was.

The "Hamlet program" if you read Prouty was a CIA excuse to maintain terror and control.

Lodge lied to Diem claiming he'd be safe if he stepped down and left... he obviously wasn't.

Diem is assassinated in Vietnam after Ambassador Lodge tells him at 4:30pm local time that if he resigns he and his brother would have safe passage out of the country - Diem-Lodge last phone call http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/vn23.pdf . On November 2nd Diem does just that. Saigon radio broadcasts that Diem had committed suicide with his brother at 10:45am local time The SITUATION in Saigon. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/vn24.pdf

(I also have the photo of an assasinated Diem but would rather not post here)

Someone here let me in on the secret. It's like high school. Why "Wow!"

If Paul is descrediting Harry - or what appears to be even worse... who is the real Paul Trejo?

(Jon - just search on Dean's name here at the forum... or Google for that matter)

edit - WOW!

Oswald was not kept at the SHERIFFs he was in the DPD.

Please explain how DECKER and WISE at the Sheriffs are talking to the same people who are in jail with Oswald...

Anyone?

You have photos of Doyle, Abrahms and Gedney from that day Ron? I would like to see those. Can you provide a link...

I don't need photos of them to prove my point. The photos we have are supposedly of Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney. In the photo comparison you provide, the old Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney in my opinion look pretty much like the three tramps would look as old men. But if I understand you correctly, the tramps are not Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney who were in custody but are three other men. Thus we have six men, out of a total of six supposed tramps, who looked like Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney. I say that the odds of this are impossible, or to put it another way, I don't think the JFK plot was so incredibly complex and intricate as to scour the country to find three men who looked like three others. For what purpose?

But Ron,

Don't you realize that since the bad guys so obviously gave us Harvey and Lee (and Henry, too), they were certainly capable of giving us multiple copies of Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney, or, if you prefer, Hunt/Holt, Harrelson, and Frenchie?

LOL

--Tommy

You are so witty ...

Just imagine what a quiet and sad place this would be without your incessant posting which adds so much to the discussion...

You both are making this way more difficult than it needs to be.

Read WISE's account. These men are brought to DECKER at the Sheriff's and released

Chamber's account has them brought to JONES at the Dallas POLICE Dept - not the Sheriff

Harkness tells us that well more than than three men were removed from the trains that day.

The three men CHAMBERS describes and for which arrest reports exist are not the same three men that WISE and DECKER are involved with.

Two different sets of tramps - one at the DPD (Gedney, Abrahms, Doyle) and one at the Sheriff's (all three are unknown yet claims as to who they were abound - none proven)

That these men can be aligned with people who are 40 years older Ron... IDK. This case does not hiinge on subjective observation of photos...

The EVIDENCE consists of two sets of people

The EVIDENCE is not consistant as to who even the policemen in the photos are...

Billy Lee Bass has a story to tell about the three in the images

William Middleton is identified as one of the officers - but he says he did not work on the 22nd http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10273-10392

Doyle's claims they were arrested for vagrancy and given 6 days and were in the same cell area as Oswald - but they only spent 2-3 days in jail and were released...

They're not the same people Mark...

Decker and Wise dealt with the three in the images

Chambers and Jones dealt with the three who have arrest records.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy IS the Evidence...

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The question to ask is WHY are they paraded virtually unguarded thru Dealey Plaza if the thought was they were involved somehow with the assassination?

and Why is there such a conflict with identifying who the police are in the photos?

One of them claims he was at home at the time...

I am convinced and can prove that the tramps paraded thru DP were NOT the same three men released from jail 3 days later: Doyle, Abrahms and Gedney...

The tramps in these photos were all releases later that day...

It seems to me you are talking about a fantastic coincidence here. You say that the three men paraded through DP were not Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney, even though they look like them. Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney were three men released three days later. That gives us a total of six men who looked like Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney (three of them actually being Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney). Not a single one of this group of six bore no resemblance. Really?

You have photos of Doyle, Abrahms and Gedney from that day Ron? I would like to see those. Can you provide a link...

From what I know, we have images of the three men who we have arrest records for - from many years later...

and who claims that they were the same men?

As I posted, Decker released all three of the men in the tramps photos the same day... at least that's what Wise says.

The arrest reports have Chambers and Beck on them.

Wise tells us the story of the tramps in these photos related to DECKER and the SHERIFFS Dept

Chamber's report has to do with Capt Jones and the DPD.

Still think they are the same 3 people? or two sets of 3 tramps?

I've done quite a lot of work on the tramps...

DPD Harkness informs us in his reports that "on the day of the assassintion there were several individuals removed from the train other than the three indiviuals previously identified"

I am convinced and can prove that the tramps paraded thru DP were NOT the same three men released from jail 3 days later: Doyle, Abrahms and Gedney...

The tramps in these photos were all releases later that day...

DJ

Pretty sure there were but not on the day he was arrested... just the LEE bracelet and the Marine ring.

There were two watches listed that are found in Irving

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/18/1825-065.gif

It seems to me that this person may have a watch/bracelet on his right wrist (suggesting a left-handed person) while Oswald wore his on the left....

So close yet just far enough not to know...

The question is not whether Clint Hill slapped Jackie.

The question is whether the trunk surface was littered with brain, blood, and bone. I believe it was.

Based on what Jon?

A couple of images related to the blood on the trunk comments... below the rant....

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KC has been a constant source of quality information and discussion here for all the years I've been reading and posting here which I think started in 2001 or so.

The attacking stance that a few here take - as opposed to offering support and research has indeed dragged this place down. Prior to John closing up shop a little while back due to the ongoing efforts of a few whose only purpose was to disrupt and aggravate - it was virtually impossible to carry on a discussion. It closed, and reopened with many of the offenders no longer allowed to post... As one searches within the Forum and finds their older posts the word BANNED appears under their names...

There remain a few here who believe it is their RIGHT and PURPOSE to be "Discussion Nazis" when an idea or research is offered that they disagree with or interfere with their selling of books with ideas that are counter to what is offered. And then, when shown their rebuttals are hollow, without evidence beyond opinion, they get belligerent, abusive and oppressive, all in the THEIR name of saving us from the BS that may be posted.

Is it possible for the Moderators here to tell attack tactics from discussion of Evidence and theory?

Is it possible for the moderators here to stop people in their tracks when all that is offered is junk science and uncorroborated opinion as opposed to sourced and referenced PROOF?

No one here is so lost that we cannot tell BS from theory developed after extensive research.

Should a member be allowed to push the GREER DID IT scenario at this point without Moderation?

I am and will remain at the center of the H&L theories and the mountains of real evidence which supports it...

When evidence is offered to refute any one area - fine... let's talk about why Palmer himself writes to tell us his detractors are wrong, that he was there and others were not.

If they coudl PROVE he was wrong they would... but they can't. Yet that simple fact does not stop the attacks.

But until completely disproven, as the GREER DID IT "theory" easily is, ad hominem attacks and opinions without basis in ANY fact need to be addressed by the moderators

While some of these detractors offer a body of work which is exemplary, one is lost for why this great work ethic is set aside and in its place we get repetitious opinion designed only to enrage and attack...

Years and years ago a set of rules was offered

1. Address the Subject not the person

2. Provide Evidence to back the rebuttal

3. Provide the SOURCES of said evidence when possible and let people see and decide for themselves.

We are all on the same side - yet to those outside we will forever appear as a bunch of Conspiracy Nuts because we choose to sacrifice those who offer evidence laden theories we may disagree with to forward our own agendas.

This all sounds like nothing but NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING - which we hate to see politicians do...

How about putting forth what you believe and show why you believe it with reference?

Do we actually believe that readers hear come here to be "convinced" or rather to be exposed to other ways to see and perceive the events ??

Posts that include, "IN MY OPINION" are fine for speculative discussion - they are not put forth so certain yahoos who feel it their right and job as "discussion nazis" can find the nearest hammer and pound away at their perceived stupidity of the OPINION or theory developed - if the idea or theory is so wrong - it will be obvious.

I address JVB with FACTS about how her Evidence is not authentic or says the opposite of what is offered as a conclusion.

There are many that day who claim the limo was COVERED IN BLOOD, hood, trunk, handrails, everywhere... FBI and SS men who make this claim.

Blood stained metal does not SHINE,it smears and to anyone who claims the limo was "CLEANED" at Parkland need only look at the FBI color versions of CE352

yes, a bucket was seen but no cleaning was done... the top was put on.

One POSSIBILITY is that the bucket was used to put pieces and parts of JFK - Evidence that needed to be "evaluated"... Is there any evidence to show someone actually WASHING THE LIMO or is it speculation based on a bucket?

A tough hide and turning the other cheek should NOT be a requirement to discuss the case among peers. We're a few hundred people trying to make sense of this... can we stop acting like the curator of that Museum where lies are thrown into the faces of any and all visitors and nonsense is offered up as FACT?

Or, whatever... (let the games begin...)

Peace

DJ

dup

dup

Incriminating behavior?

Assume all you know is Oswald's movements as told by the wcr. Even after leaving the rifle, the shells, he still casually leaves. Walks away to catch a bus back West. The timing does not work for Tippit. He is not 5'10, 165, in a white jacket. The man changes clothes yet does not change his look And can now go anywhere.

This man who we know had not killed a soul has just killed the pres and a cop and is about as casual as they. Almost an air of protected. When he is finally charged, a look, a what? And nothing incriminating to the FBI, CIA or anyone is offered.

I simply fail to see how this man was involved... Or was the greatest actor we've known.

A VERY GOOD speculation....Brian... I appreciate your thinking. But shots from the front need to be changed. Hunt and gang would have little if any pull at Bethesda, where the cover up is created and reality disappears forever...

Good post and one well worth more thought.

Tommy's confused and Parker is frothing...

Same Sh!t different Day

Rock on Cliff... Rock on