David Josephs

[National Security Action Memorandums (NSAM)]

This is what we wound up with... while what JFK wanted is below... it is legend that this was changed PRIOR to the assassination by Bundy.

http://jfklancer.com/NSAM273.html some great work from Greg Burnham

DJ

THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON

November 26, 1963

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 273

TO: The Secretary of State

The Secretary of Defense

The Director of Central Intelligence

The Administrator, AID

The Director, USIA

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all U. S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves width this objective in view.

4. The President expects that all senior officers of the Government will move energetically to insure the full unity of support for established U.S. policy in South Vietnam. Both in Washington and in the field, it is essential that the Government be unified. It is of particular importance that express or implied criticism of officers of other branches be scrupulously avoided in all contacts with the Vietnamese Government and with the press. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting, of November 20. The offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned are indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only the control of hamlets but the productivity of this area, especially where the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces.

(Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import, distribution, and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta.

(Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. )

7. Planning should include different levels of possible increased activity, and in each instance there should be estimates of such factors as:

A. Resulting damage to North Vietnam;

B. The plausibility of denial;

C. Possible North Vietnamese retaliation;

D. Other international reaction.

Plans should be submitted promptly for approval by higher authority.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA. )

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed and submitted for approval by higher authority for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enterprise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should include a redefined method of political guidance for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular a plan should be developed using all available evidence and methods of persuasion for showing the Cambodians that the recent charges against us are groundless.

(Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible.

(Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.)

s/ McGeorge Bundy

McGeorge Bundy

cc:

Mr. Bundy

Mr. Forrestal

Mr. Johnson

NSC Files

(page 3 of 3 pages)

[DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET

Auth: EO 11652

Date: 6-8-76

By: Jeanne W. Davis

NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL ]

11/21/63

DRAFT (and what was removed or changed)

TOP SECRET

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all decisions and U. S. actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves with this objective in view.

4. It is of the highest importance that the United States Government avoid either the appearance or the reality of public recrimination from one part of it against another, and the President expects that all senior officers of the Government will take energetic steps to insure that they and their subordinates go out of their way to maintain and to defend the unity of the United States Government both here and in the field.

More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting of November 20. The office or offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned is indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only our control of land but the productivity of this area wherever the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces.

(Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import distribution and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta.

(Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. )

7. With respect to action against North Vietnam, there should be a detailed plan for the development of additional Government of Vietnam resources, especially for sea-going activity, and such planning should indicate the time and investment necessary to achieve a wholly new level of effectiveness in this field of action.

(Action: DOD, and CIA. )

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enter- prise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should provide an alternative method of political liaison for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular, measures should be undertaken to satisfy ourselves completely that recent charges from Cambodia are groundless, and we should put ourselves in a position to offer to the Cambodian a full opportunity to satisfy themselves on this same point.

(Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible.

(Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.)

McGeorge Bundy

TOP SECRET

[DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET

Auth: EO 12356, Sec. 3.4

Date: 1/21/91

By: SKF, NARA

David Josephs,

The "airmobile doctrine," which led to the creation of the First Air Cavalry Division (the "Cav"), was in the making before the U.S. plunged into war in Viet Nam. By the mid-1960s, the Army was itching to try out its new doctrine. Viet Nam offered the perfect opportunity. The Army, without any outside prodding, was completely on board with the air mobile doctrine, which as it has evolved has become a central feature of modern ground combat for the U.S.

Unlike others, I don't see the rise of Bell Helicopter to be anything other than part of the good old MIC, with a lot of emphasis on the "M" in MIC.

Helicopters did serve well in Viet Nam. They and their airmobile troops did not prove to be overwhelmingly effective against the VC and NVA; but helicopters did, by and large, live up to the expectations that they would be an efficient way of shuttling troops, artillery, munitions, and supplies onto the battlefield.

Specialized helicopters such as dedicated gunships proved to be very good in some situations at supporting U.S. ground troops.

I know that among Vietnam veterans there are lots and lots of harrowing stories involving helicopters. There's no doubt, however, that the use of helicopters in ground combat became a permanent feature of the U.S. military in the wake of the war.

My point is, the Army wanted to use helicopters and got its way.

Jon,

One of the more amazing things about the VietNam "war" is how much the average person does not know related to why, who, the Hamlet program and the complete waste of money and lives helicopters wound up costing the US.

Not sure what your feelings are about Prouty but he was in a most critical role as liaison between the Military and CIA operational support...

JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy by Fletcher Prouty may be one of the most important books you'll ever read about how "eff'd up" the entire SE Asia situation was and why that silly little island thing 90 miles off Florida was dropped the same week JFK was assassinated.

A comparison of the NSAMs before and after Bundy rewrites it between what JFK was to sign and what LBJ signed is also a large key to why he was eliminated.

DJ

That's fine. You're not sorry and you'll continue to disappoint.

Roger, if you do a Google search their recollections can be found. I even think Dellarosa did a video describing it. I printed/saved the written description as posted on this forum if memory serves.

One thing struck me was the UP movement of JFK described. Made me think of the sewer drain. I always felt the zooming in of the Z film at that point might have hidden the reflection of the shot on the side of the limo. The angle seems right.

DJ

I was being rhetorical Greg. Maybe you can do your thing, others will do theirs and we can SUPPORT each other's efforts rather than work to tear them down. Just a thought. I don't feel like spending any more of my time arguing the unproveable with anyone.

so, Any SIS related info? The timing and locations are right And most aren't even aware of the SIS or what they did. Hoover was entrenched in the Americas years before the OSS/CIA comes along.

Thx.

I just don't get why you, Greg, being right about what you're saying MUST mean everyone else is wrong.

Context is the only thing we have to fully appreciate what took place.

Greg, I've done research into the FBI's SIS... is there anything you can share related to that initial western hemisphere intelligence agency and the activities you've described?

Again, thanks for the kind words... only took me 20 years to get here. (btw - the Model was offered by Charles Drago and Michael Evica - I am simply using it as a context and vocabulary for ease of discussion)

To Me Bundy is both Sponsor connected and Facilitator functional as opposed to say LBJ who would never be allowed into the SPONSOR circles. Same with Hoover as you mention. But the Sponsors are not so follish as to let nothing but Facilitators run the show.

Harriman, McCloy, Acheson, Lovett, Bohlen - 5 of the 6 "Wise Men" (a book worth getting btw) and Bundy can be seen as SPONSOR-Facilitators (Kennan being the 6th and never on the inside)

Yet the real talent of the SPONSOR is to be invisible. The Rock's are always first on the list along with the Rothschilds, the Morgan's, DuPont and we haven't even gotten out of the US yet.

Rockefeller and the Uber-wealthy families of the world are of course the SPONSORS. I believe the number is something like 250,000 people own 90% of the world's wealth. Most you will never have heard of and never will. The Koch's are among some of today's most visible sponsor-demons.

Yet again... the everyday person would not know these SPONSORS by name - and purposefully so.

You've heard of the State Street Corp? I hadn't. It controls a $7 TRILLION Trust - and surprise surprise it is based out of Boston Mass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Street_Corporation

Jay Hooley Pres, CEO is not on the Forbes 100... but I would venture to say that he has SOME leverage in the world.

https://www.aba.com/Tools/Research/Documents/Top25InstitutionsbyTrustAssets.pdf is a list of Trusts overseeing $17 TRILLION in Assets with the Bank of NY-MELLON 2nd on the list

A detour here to Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr... Hamilton founded the BANK OF NY, Burr the BANK OF THE MANHATTAN CO which becomes CHASE/JP Morgan Chase

both fought to become THE NATIONAL BANK OF THE US while trying to convince us that this was what WASHINGTON wanted... which is as far from the truth as possible.

Jefferson and Washington knew the evils of the Bank of England and the control Rothschild had over it and all the other National banks he had his sons create all over the world

Hamilton and Burr were part of the start of the US SPONSORS we refer to here in this discussion. Morgan was understood and operated as an agent of Rothschild.

==============================================

Are you ready to be blown away Jon?

It was this passage about BELL in Prouty's book that got me started with Bankers and Lawyers. He doesn't say who they are but mentions TEXTRON once I think. I wanted to know more since the SPONSOR model made sense to me but no one I had read pointed a finger at a specific SPONSOR and made a JFK connection...

In Prouty's book on JFK and Vietnam this comes up only a couple of times and is not followed up.

Prouty says the decision to buy BELL HELICOPTER began with a Boston Bank VP asking the CIA's Charles Cabell (brother of the mayor of Dallas) whether it would be a good idea given the political outlook for war and the potential use of helicopters to fight said wars.

Charles Pearre Cabell (October 11, 1903 – May 25, 1971) was an United States Air Force General and Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

Earle Cabell (October 27, 1906 – September 24, 1975), was a Texas politician who served as mayor of Dallas, Texas. Cabell was mayor at the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy and was later a member of the U.S. House of Representatives

The CIA ultimately manueved the resupply of Helicopters in the SE Asia region which required the restocking of helicopters waiting to go to Viet Nam. (I suggest you read the book) The decision to use helicopters was pisspoor given the war to be fought and the manpower needed to maintain helicopter battalions... but no matter BELL HELICOPTERS were chosen to fight the Vietnam War and the rest is history. More people died related to helicopters and their malfunctions than is ever realized... When you look into the history of TEXTRON, what they did to the Textile industry of the US and why and with WHO's backing you start to get into the world of the SPONSOR which includes SUN LIFE of Montreal, the largest of Insurance and Assurance companies.

TEXTRON was the world's first conglomerate put together with Rothschild Bank of England money to desimate the US Textile industry in favor of English textile imports...

Textron (NYSE: TXT) is an American industrial conglomerate. Textron includes Bell Helicopter, Cessna Aircraft, and other components. It was founded by Royal Little in 1923 as the Special Yarns Company, and is now headquartered in Providence, Rhode Island.

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1978/eirv05n04-19780131/eirv05n04-19780131_028-gw_miller_and_textron_a_study_in.pdf (I do not agree with some of his JFK attacks but the info on TEXTRON's history, Arthur Little, Miller and the law firms and Bankers is there as a great launching point).

The high-technology branch of Textron operations

began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American

Research and Development Corporation. a three million

dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun

Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative.

Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance

Company and director of First National of

Boston. the bank whose extraordinary largess built

Textron. Also founding ARD was Oscar W. Haussmann.

a top corporate lawyer and chairman of the New

England Industrial Research Foundation and the Boston

Municipal Research Bureau. and Lessing J. Rosenwalt

of Sears Roebuck and Kuhn Loeb.

. Control is exercised by Sun Life of Canada through its

chairman. Alistair M. Campbell who sits on the ARD

board. and sat on Textron's before their formal merger

in 1972.

In 1956 (G. William) Miller joined Textron as a vice president. As

the October 1971 Fortune magazine described it. "Miller

came to Textron in 1956 from the prestigious Wall Street

firm of Cravath. Swaine and Moore after Royal Little

was impressed with his work in a raucous proxy fight

with American Woolen."

When Kennedy campaigned for the presidency in 1960,

he declared there was an enormous "missile gap" between

the U. S. and the Soviet Union. It was a lie, which

greatly impaired U.S.-USSR relations and recalled the

Cold War days. Meanwhile at Harvard, British agent

Henry Kissinger published, under the direction of the

Council on Foreign Affairs (headed by John McCloy) his

"Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy."

This book and the Research and Development Corporation

(Rand) limited nuclear war thesis became the

cornerstone of the Kennedy reorganization of the Pentagon.

The essential shift in government contracts to

gimmickry rather than fundamental technological

breakthroughs meant that American development was

being sabotaged.

Rand madman Robert Strange McNamara became

Secretary of Defense while Cravath Swain and Moore

partner, Roswell Gilpatrick became the number two

man in Defense. This opened a whole new phase in

Textron development.

Textron bought Bell Helicopter in July of 1960, four

months before the election. Bell's sales were down an

even hundred million in 1959 from nearly double that in

1953. Textron bought the company for what was considered

one of the worst deals of the year - $32 million or

exactly the company's book value. Yet Rupert C. Thompson, Jr. ; "

then Textron Chairman (Miller was President) , boasted, "We knew we had our objective -

25 percent pre-tax profit on our investment - from day

one."

That was a pretty cocky statement by the head of a

company that had $98 million in long-term debt, large

amounts of warrants and convertible preferred stock

outstanding, and was running out of tax credits. Since

1953 the company had not paid a penny in tax, having run

up a tax credit as high as $45 million in 1956. Textron

faced full tax liability by 1963. ,

In fact the company was heading for bankruptcy. Yet

somehow, the Prudential Life Insurance Company of

Newark, a Morgan influenced firm, provided a $25

million unsecured note to Textron, with a six-year grace

period on repayments. A most un-insurance companylike

type of loan.

With the loan, Textron bought Bell and remarkably,

helicopter orders zoomed up 50 percent between 1961 and

1962. Bell's UH-IB and UH-IB Iroquois were heavily

ordered for JFK's Vietnam War (DJ: JFK's war?? not so much). With this kick, Textron

began another round of acquisitions, now heavily defense

or machine-tool oriented.

Greatly appreciated - maybe I got a book in me yet...

DJ

PS.. To be honest, I've got a nice handful of gigs source material for my "Bankers & Lawyers: The History of Control and Conspiracy" that I hope to get to writing one day.

First my reference source on the Mexico City example of FBI evidence creation and then a series of articles on how the Evidence IS the Conspiracy looking at a dozen or so aspects of the case which illustrate the point.

If I could only quit my Day Job...

Well Jon... that be the $64K Q....

A while back I was exposed to the Drago-Evica Model of SPONSORS-FACILITATORS-MECHANICS. The nitty gritty details of which as offered by the authors are up for discussion in my opinion yet the model is one that makes discussion and context possible.

In a nutshell, the Sponsors where in the position to make that kind of decision and insure their own insulation from guilt or accusation

The Facilitators are the ones with the skills and resources to produce the plan which Mechanics carried out.

If one asks a Mechanic why... it all depends on who the Mechanic represents: Cubans-for breaking his word and letting thousands die; Birch Society-for his liberalism; CIA/Military-for his treason

Why the Mechanic thinks he was killed is really of no matter in the grand scheme of things as long as they do their jobs. Their bosses, the Facilitator level, grants them life, death, wealth, asylum, etc...

Anything to insure the job gets done.

The FACILITATORS are directly beholden to the Sponsors for it was the Sponsor level that placed them where they are. Facilitators are the part of the Military Industrial Congressional Complex that we are aware of, that make the news and upon which the stories and novels are based. Facilitators are more interested in Continuity of Government with them in control. Period. They are the ones fighting the nasty -ism's that change over time. Terrorism being the flavor of this century. Ask them and the answer is that JFK was making it impossible to do what they needed to insure "Our way of life prevails".

The SPONSOR. Oh, the Sponsor. This to me is the level of people who supercede nations and governments. Their one and only purpose is to insure their survival and complete ownership of the game, the rules and the outcomes.

The Board of Haliburton does not care about the ideology of those who sign the contract. IBM's board did not care what the Nazis were doing with their machines as long as they kept buying punch cards.

When Nixon lost, the Sponsors lost one of their key Facilitators. Prescott Bush hand picked the man as a facilitator for Brown-Harriman et al. 8 years of build-up and what finally happened in 1963, 65 & 68 might have happened years earlier.

During this time from 1945 to 1960 the reason for Ike's warning was not only born but grew to the monster it was - Ike was Right.

Politics, nations and governments are tools of the Sponsor class. Without being flippant - Bankers and Lawyers Jon. Control of the money supply, control of the laws of the land.

Do you honestly think it matters to Big Business who is elected? At the Facilitator level yes... not for Sponsors. Money and Power is to be made with the ebb and flow of such trival, human, everyday things.

I truly believe that the Sponsor level gave serious thought how to wield their Money and Power now that JFK was elected. It may not be as easy as with Nixon but the USA, the president was not the make or break of the Sponsor, and never would be. Until JFK started to take the side of the public need. JFK, like so many before him, used all at his disposal to take the election from Nixon, maybe even fraudulently. The Sponsor thinks, okay, this man has the greed and desire to do what it takes, maybe we can be okay with him....

But then, little by little and one by one JFK attacks all that the Sponsor holds dear as to the causality of their wealth and power. JFK wanting Peace does not mean they'd sell less food, or fewer TV's - in the short term. But in the Long Term people who do not live in a constant state of fear, a self-realized understanding of true uselessness to fight the system realize they can join together and question WHY. Why do THEY have and we don't? They start to believe they can DO something about it. Ms. Antoinette found out the hard way just to name one. And is why we see small examples of this being squashed all the time - if not squashed then a facade is created, "democracy" or some other "better way" is offered until the attentions of the world focus elsewhere. Then it's back to SOP.

When JFK starts in on the FED, on the JCS, on the CIA. On reversing Foreign policy, on FAIRNESS for all people over everything else - he was doomed in the eyes of the Sponsor.

The Facilitators role is to insure their Continuity. The Sponsor grants this continuity via laws, loans and protection.

Why, in my opinion, was JFK killed?

He was not one of them, was not ever going to be and in the end would be perceived as their worst enemy.

He had won the hearts and minds of the PEOPLE the Sponsors wanted to maintain control over and would most definitley lead the revolutionary charge (this too is why Bobby was killed).

By 1960 their power, exercised at the Facilitator level, had risen to heights hardly ever seen in the US whereas in the rest of the world, the understanding of these simple principles are thousands of years old. The results of these principles are thousands of years old. Americans are so ethnocentric as to believe that political assassination does not visit them... and for good reason. The Sponsors have created it that way via their Facilitators in Media.

By 1960 I truly believe the MICC leaders felt untouchable like no group of people in human history.

This is not paranoia by any means. Just the way of Humans throughout history. Oh we have our moments but on a whole we have a pretty xxxxty track record these last 5000 years.

FDR was fronting for the Bankers and Lawyers

Ike was playing Golf while Nixon turned the Executive Branch into a cesspool

NIXON as Pres in 1960 may have ushered in an era of greater growth and wealth than the 50's were while widening the gap between Rich and poor which we see today so plainly.

I think it would have also ushered in an era of greater secrecy, greater control, more FBI anti-youth anti-minority, etc....

But JFK took it. We have not had an independent, thinking, humanity-first president since...

All us people running around thinking it was Israel or Egypt or Vietnam or the Treasury or South Africa or Human rights are, in my little opinion, thinking within the world we see and understand, not the world of the SPONSOR.

The enduring world of wealth, power, influence and unaccountability... A world that if you're not one of US - you simply have no clue. And if you somehow get to be one of us, you're not about to let anyone in on the secret.

My $.02 Jon. All we have are the day to day choices of right from wrong and whether we offer love in our hearts when making these decisions.

When and if we as a species decide to rise above our evolutionary limits, maybe a new day will dawn. Our greatest and worst attribute - hope. Keeps us going yet overshadows an intelligent look at our history and the inevitable cause and effect we see repeated ad nauseum.

Peace

DJ

(Excerpts from American University)

I have, therefore, chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived--yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace.

What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

---

Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament--and that it will be useless until the leaders of the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude--as individuals and as a Nation--for our attitude is as essential as theirs. And every graduate of this school, every thoughtful citizen who despairs of war and wishes to bring peace, should begin by looking inward--by examining his own attitude toward the possibilities of peace, toward the Soviet Union, toward the course of the cold war and toward freedom and peace here at home

---

The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough--more than enough--of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on--not toward a strategy of annihilation but toward a strategy of peace.

Great point KC...

I always wondered why none of the images of the limo show this and then this: I've never seen an image that corroborates this.

Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?
Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

I read somewhere awhile back the argument that the CIA sent Oswald to the USSR so that Oswald would divulge radar secrets that would enable the USSR to shoot down a U-2 and undermine Ike's attempt to create better relations with the Soviets. From what I know, this argument can't be correct. Any codes to which Oswald had access as a radar operator would have been changing periodically. Furthermore, what enabled the Soviets to shoot down Gary Powers wasn't knowledge of U.S. radar; it was the development of a new SAM.

it's not.

Greg's 100% correct. U-2 flights were ordered not to happen by Ike yet Dulles et al was not going to allow Ike's desire for a Peace conference with Russia to define the years to come. The real assumption was that Nixon would be POTUS and the plans to confront and provoke Russia would be ongoing and supported by the man in the big chair.

JFK winning screwed all that up and enraged the MICC. American University sealed the deal.

Where would we be as a nation if we did not have a THREAT with which to contend ..

Nazi's...

Communists...

Terrorists...

Greg has a better handle on this - didn't he just run out of gas or have mechanical failure?

https://politicalassassinations.wordpress.com/2010/05/05/cia-documents-show-us-never-believed-gary-powers-was-shot-down/

U-2 pilot Gary Powers, a few weeks before his suspicious death in a helicopter crash in LA, revealed that he did not believe his plane was shot down by the Soviets and indicated sabotage on the part of the CIA instead, in order to undermine the possibility of detente between Eisenhower and Kruschev. It is not a “conspiracy theory” that Lee Harvey Oswald, one of nine Office of Naval Intelligence fake defectors who went to the USSR in the same month, told ONI’s Richard Snyder at the American Embassy in Moscow that he was going to reveal the U-2 secrets to the Soviets. Oswald had been stationed, as a Marine, at every base the U-2 operated from, including Atsugi, Japan and tracked it by radar. He had a Crypto clearance. Those things are in the historical record. It is not likely that he gave up any such information or would have been allowed to. Snyder kept Oswald’s proffered passport and did not act on his renunciation of US citizenship. Snyder returned the passport to Oswald on his way out of Russia with his new bride Marina, transportation paid by the State Department. Nice treatment for a defector who gave secrets to the Soviets. Marina even got Oswald’s story confused with another ONI defector, Robert Webster, when she testified to the Warren Commission about how her husband got to the Soviet Union and where he lived in Moscow. However if sabotage of the detente was in the planning, it would have been useful to use the Oswald deception to explain how the Soviets could track and shoot down the U-2. This article suggests that Powers himself might have been a false defector as well. What is clear is that Powers did not buy the official story.

John Judge

The London Times

May 1, 2010

Jon... (please excuse the soapbox rant, warranted as it may be in response to your question)

A little while back, after years of "JFK Assassination all the time every time" I took a step back and made some realizations akin to Galileo and the earth NOT being the center of the universe...

The JFK Assassination is not at the center of historical conspiracy and greed but one of the many celestial bodies which revolves around a core of mankind who has always taken advantage of others for their own purposes. Taking the most negative aspects of the Tragedy of the Commons to covertly and overtly gain control of the resources of humanity and the planet it lives upon.

Ownership & property rights all hearken back to Bankers and Lawyers writing the rules and owning the assets.

History is the story of any one set of these people doing everything they can to take and keep as much as possible

You can read Plato describing the problems with the ruling elite thousands of years ago

we can learn what "sovereignty" means and how it too is used to wage and justify war or the illusion of defense against it.

Those that rule this little planet were doing so long before John and will be doing so long after unless mankind as a whole changes, evolves. Good luck with that.

JFK threatened the very fabric of the wool covering the eyes of the sheep who provided the raw materials to build the cover in the first place...

To believe that any of this "ends" or is "put to bed" is to deny history and how man works.

Labels like "countries" "nations" "alliances" are in reality part of the facade... like energy, WEALTH/POWER simply changes form and moves from one area of physical reality to another

The names change but the ideology and process remains to be used over and over

The sheep do not know they are being led to the slaughter - it would upset them too much and make it impossible to control them.

Dr. King, JFK and a handful of others rose above and made the sheep look up from their grazing and get MAD... to want more than the same old BS

Is it a coincidence that the communications explosion of TV and the telling of these horrors makes it appear as if none of this stuff ever happened before 1963?

The assassination in my opinion was but a very small point in a huge spiderweb of conspiracy and control which includes and uses any and all resources within its grasp - and that grasp is virtually limitless.

Sadly, it is this part of humanity that has taken control and built up wall after wall to insure it retains this control.

The assassination was, again in my opinion, a public flexing of these muscles and shows how these walls are impossible to topple no matter what the sheep see/know or can prove they saw/knew.

It was never about going forward but about disenfranchising the individual to accept that the human cause is hopeless, and to move on..

the response?... "you want fries with that while we watch Honey boo-boo?"

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Thanks Chris....

that makes sense. These are the same frames used to try and find Worrell - he really should be noticeable in this field of view... but I can't make him out either.

DJ

Here's as thought Tommy...

I embedded a photo that we know is Euins to help identify him in the Bell frame of that corner ...

That uncanny ability to state the obvious while missing the entire point of the discussion shines

Hi David

Except that PM is standing right behind where the TSBD door opens and anyone going into the TSBD would have been staring him right in the face as they opened the door. If he was a stranger on the day of the assassination don't you think he would have stood out?

Most of the TSBD employees are specifically asked, and specifically deny, seeing any strangers around the TSBD that day in their WC testimony and affividavits.

Hi VL...

A test - walk around your office on a different floor than usual... or a cafe you've had lunch at a few times... no assassination, no traumatic experience.

Give it a week. do you supposed you could tell me if you saw someone you barely knew standing by an elevator or door who is now accused of assassination of the president... the story out is this person was on the 6th floor firing a rifle and killing the president.

Do you suppose you could say with certainty that this person was someone you walked past as you were scrambling to your office to get your stuff to go home and tell everyone what you witnessed?

He has little if any identifying marks... he looks like Lovelady and a handful of other people you might walk by in the course of your day...

our hindsight makes us assume these people would be looking for him.... they wouldn't be... he was a quiet nobody who had been there about a month, and a lowly grunt at that.

I just dont think he would be remembered so that someone would say, no - he was on the steps outside - to the FBI... and contradict the authorities.

It's hard for us to think that way since we are so overly familiar with the details - we live them daily and we didn't experience it first hand.

Just another POV to consider

DJ

added: and those little clauses in their statements that say the witness did not see Oswald after 11:50 or so is not something anyone would question...

Every once in a while you have to look at it as if you know nothing about the case...

Witnesses over time recall the strangest things... the details of which can easily be guided by professionals to conclude whatever was needed IMO

David @ post #209:

I can buy that there were two boys who looked alike, whose paths appeared to cross, who came to the attention of a watchful intelligence service.

I can buy that. It's within the realm of reality.

"appeared to cross"

This was not some random chance... the CIA (edit: those who become the CIA) worked hand in hand with the Nazis to save their upper echelon. It is IMO a foregone conclusion they taught us a thing or two about children, genetics and spying. Dulles and Angleton were WWII vets of the extreme nature. Wars, governments and men come and go - ideology and process remains for those transiently in power.

It is very possible that some of the basics of genetics were employed to find "assets" for future use...

The other real possibility is that they were found to look similar at age 17-18 and their back stories were selectively created...

I'm just not sure of the how since I'm not in that business... the "moving forward in time" versus "creating the view backward" is something that requires a great deal of concentrated analysis...

and still remains difficult to wrap one's head around...

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

I edited the post with an earlier frame - I think you're right....

or better yet...if he was already over by that block he hide behind

I posted it on the other thread you started

Not talking about the motorcycle scenes -- has he ever been identified in any home movies or photos taken before the shooting?

Could this be him Mark?

This seems to be more likely him

If the original intent of the action was to suggest a communist conspiracy, more than a single shooter accomplishes this... it's more than obvious those in the Plaza knew shots came from the front.

If the AF-1 call from Bundy is true history, the implication of a conspiracy was designed to keep people in the know quiet while nodding with approval that Ozzie was a "Lone Nut" and when he is killed - case closed, move on... nothing to see here.

I think we fail to remember the context of the times. Those in charge were REALLY in charge. I hasten to say that if a 7 foot gorilla came out and hit JFK with a bat as he passed by, Oswald would still have been the Lone Nut killer - you gonna believe us or your lying eyes?

The conspiracy is not about what happened but how it was recorded for history. Just listen to GMacks old tired line, "that's not what the official investigations concluded..." and if anyone knows better it would be him.

Mark - there were shots to the back, to the throat, to his head to the wrist to the leg and thru his torso. a "flurry" as one observant witness noted.

Did there need to be a witness to a shot from the 6th floor SE corner to implicate Oswald - not in my opinion - but Euins is pretty convincing and other than the black v white bald spot he seems to me as reliable... (black as in Cuban, not African)

you asked why didn't more people see the 6th floor shot(s) - the magic trick works by misdirection.... it didn't matter what happened - since Ozzie in the window with a rifle was the conclusion and Euins' story supported this, it stays in the record. Those that had a different story, well we all know what happened to them

Robert...

{chuckle} Really? shots to the back of both men? I need to look into that... {sarcasm}

C'mon Robert... check the thread's title....

How many people point to or run to Dal-Tex, the Courthouse, TSBD versus the Grassy Knoll area?

We have Baker running to the TSBD

We agree shots are fired from the front

We agree there were more than only 3 shots are fired from 2 if not 3 directions

Where was 99% of the focused attention at the time of the shots after the Stemmons sign?

YOU added more proof the MC and its ammo was not involved

Do you think shots were fired from the 6th floor SE window - or was what Euins and a very small handful sees simply a way to insure the shells left by the window are connected to these activities at that window?

The most likely place for JC's chest wound is 6th floor TSBD west window.... If a shooter is leading JFK slightly and the limo stops, JC is in the direct line of fire yet I think the thread is looking at the east window evidence and why more did not stare at a source 70 feet up and behind when the result is 200 feet down Elm to the SW and the sounds appears to be coming from ground level

thanks for the chuckle in any event...

DJ

Oswald had been there for barely a month

How many of all these people would have known him at all, let alone notice much of anything after what they just experienced while walking dazed back up to their jobs?

Wesley is there and fairly close to PM. He is sought out and brought to DPD with his 303 rifle and ammo... He is the man responsible for bringing Oswald home and helping him bring the rifle to do the deed, or so says the DPD to this frightened young man and his sister after finally tracking him down

Did Wesley see Oswald in the corner? My guess is he would never say so in a million years... if it was Wesley they were leaning on as an accomplice.

What amazes me is that no one has ever come forward to claim that was Oswald... not even hint at it. C Arnold comes closest by putting him inside those front doors as 12:30 approaches

He does look kinda large to be Ozzie - wide rather than large - but that could be a billowing shirt.

just thinking out loud

DJ

And not a single startled face in the crowd, in a photo taken possibly 3.5 seconds (or longer) after the first shot.

What's the man in the hard hat in front of the light pole looking at back up the street - along with all the others looking up there?

At street level there are numerous 1960's motorcycles... not exactly a quiet hum.

Cheering, talking and everyone focused on JFK (well, Jackie most likely)

No one who had not looked up earlier would look up now since to a person, the witnesses claim the first sound was street level

Are you saying that this description by Euins does not describe what would have been a first shot from that area, from that window? (as we all agree, Brennen did not see anything)

And as the shots come from the front, why would anyone look back towards the TSBD... they ran to the Grassy Knoll area

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around. Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493b.htm is CE366 marked by Euins

Mr. BELIN. Before you turned and went back into the building did you---did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?

Mrs. REID. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?

Mrs. REID. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?

Mrs. REID. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.

The police were sending people back to the TSBD to go inside.... So I guess it comes down to what we believe Euins actually sees and if its just a prop...

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493a.htm

One has to wonder why he runs to the tracks if he sees shots from the 6th floor TSBD.... why EVERYONE runs to the tracks and other casually walk back into the TSBD (right past what just may have been Oswald - but that's another great thread)

David Josephs,

You write that Oswald (Marina's husband, I assume) wasn't what he appeared to be. I know this is a widely held view.

What did Marina's husband appear to be? An inner-directed individual, who loved his daughters, who couldn't hold a job, who lived on the margin but tried to provide for his family, who hung around at times with individuals who were shady or suspicious.

I've found no difference in this appearance from Marina's husband, based on what I've read.

What did Marina's husband purport to be? A Marxist, for one thing. I can buy that he regarded himself as a Marxist. The troubling matter is his alleged use of aliases. If he in fact carried a ludicrously phony Hidell Selective Service card, he was indeed equipped, poorly so, to purport to be someone he wasn't. I can't imagine why he would carry such a card...unless some third party talked him into doing so for some reason that must have made sense to him. If this is the case, it is a direct sign of a set-up as I have defined set-up.

I lean toward believing all the Hidell stuff relating to Oswald was cooked up post-assassination, or least became known post-assassination.

Jon,

If there was a Harvey and Lee... and Harvey Oswald never was a Harvey or an Oswald... how can he be what he appears to be?

Nothing about him would be what it appears... and for what reason?

edit: Jon, not sure if you ever saw this...http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html