David Josephs

1.The Parkland witnesses were not consistent....

2.Jackie was not a .....

3. While Clint Hill made some early statements suggesting......

don't get dizzy with all that spin...

Going on the offensive? ... let's see, who else was tasked with going after the Dallas recollections

Your apologies and alignments are clear.

Thanks B.A... here and elsewhere. your posts have inspired many hours research and have helped me see clearly in so many directions...

Something I'd like to offer now... the right temple bullet hole on the anterior xray...

I did not retouch anything other than the reversal image... if not a bullet hole... it certainly appears darker than dark and not "part" of the original xray - thoughts?

instead we're given the Ebersole 6.5mm tape job... have you read his story about the bust to be made and the need for measurements?... his HSCA discussion I think... before you pass any judgement READ the entire testimony of everyone who was there that you can find... not the reports about what they said... unless you check them against what they actually said... ARRB changed everything.... and to think that what the HSCA hid that Bill found in State Secret is mind blowing... The HSCA Segregated CIA files at MFF...

as devious as man's mind may be... and as serious a matter it was... your average man, IMO, does not incriminate his perceived "superiors" either on government or military or profession... we defer to authority. think of the story these people have to tell in order to be any more interesting to history than they already were... and how ignored they were by the first 30 years of our government's so-called investigations... an innocent government does not do that... V.S.'s words ringing true.

Maybe they used the same thing on the xray as they did on the photo?

Yeah Pat... and people believed Saddam was behind 9/11 too... cause that's what they were repeatedly told until it was assumed true...

That they bought yellow cake from Niger... another lie

Colin Powell stood up and told these lies to the UN...(I realize that's not the Wecht conference but,y'know what I mean) doesn't make them the truth... it is the prima facia evidence of the conspiracy to invade Iraq without real cause or reason other than to free up access to the oil reserves.. READ the Iraqi Oil Act, and the events leading to it to learn the real reason for the Bush ad campaign to convince you otherwise... $50 TRILLION in oil profit in the ground... and BP is at the top of the list.

...... without the presentation of FRAUDULENT EVIDENCE like the autopsy films, photos, and report... what perpetrates the cover-up? Testimony? The autopsy evidence IS the permanent record... and this evidence does NOT suggest multiple shooters - only one from behind... but a very specific act of treason... bring that up with Cyril next time... you're the one bringing up the missed shot from the front ala the HSCA...

and the only reason you do this is because you actually believe this evidence to be true... and you set the case back 45 years every time you do so.

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I have not said a word about Oswald or any theories... you want readers to believe the Autopsy evidence is indicative of the wound from Dallas... that's ALL we are talking about... so use the evidence to prove your point...

The evidence suggests a conspiracy. Always has. Always will. SO WHY PRETEND IT"S FAKE?

I never said it was FAKE - you keep telling me so, but I never said that in the way you mean... use the terminology I use please... I said it was CREATED TO REMOVE SIGNS OF A SHOT FROM THE FRONT... that it was altered and added to... that is taken at a time AFTER Humes altered their appearance.. other than the lateral xray which puts bone of the wrong density in a place that was devoid of bone... I know of no other "fakes", only a permanent record of a fraudulent set-up.

(note: your AUTHENTIC autopsy evidence states: Skeletal System - Aside from the above described skull wounds there are no significant gross skeletal abnormalities. Pat... from this one sentence alone we can raise serious issues as the either 1) was it JFK on the table, or 2) how unbelievably inept and dishonest the rest of the autopsy was... Everyone knew the PT story of their President... EVERYONE. Have you SEEN his back xrays?

This is on the same par as the 1500cc brain... another piece of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE you are willing to claim is true? The same evidence which builds your case, destroys it, over and over...

The fact that is was CREATED to support only shots from behind is one of the pillars of the conspiracy Pat... what planet are you on?

The evidence itself PROVES what was done to remove all evidence of a frontal shot... Why else does Elmer Todd hound Perry?

I wrote: Here, use this to illustrate how the 2-3 inch right rear wound seen and described by virtually everyone in Dallas, is accurately represented by the autopsy evidence:

Why can't you do a single honest thing here and use some of the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE to prove your point.... about the autopsy evidence instead of everything but... ??

why do you keep bringing up what was said and drawn in Dallas as being suspect... while you accept hook-line-and-sinker the evidence from Bethesda...?

Why notmentiopn the Admirals saying... DO NOT TOUCH THAT, DO NOT PROBE THAT, DO NOT CUT THAT.. and yet believe the results are authentic?

and finally... back to you avoiding even an attempt to deal with the subject matter - the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE.. Boswell's drawing constitutes autopsy evidence, does it not?

why is there not a single soul holding the TOP of their heads in the photos Pat...

Why do you not focus on your subject matter...

ADDRESS THE EVIDENCE and what it says occurred...

it says the base of the skull and top of the spinal cord were cleanly cut completely thru disconnecting JFK's brain from the rest of the body (#4)

It also says that it affected the mid brain at the third ventricle (#3)

it also says there was a 2.5cm x 4.5cm x occipit to eye socket TROUGH running the entire right side of the skull as we see in the frontal xray... (#1)

I draw you pretty pictures and show you... yet the one thing in all of these threads and posts you have yet to do is address the evidence you are calling authentic and indicative...

Last but not least, again... the fragment line... the ONLY significant fragments in the xrays... travel from the right front temple to the middle occipital...

there is no hole to the rear of said trail... yet there is a hole to the front of said trail... (the 2nd image from previous post above)

Tell us how a fragment trail is created extending from the rear when there injury as YOU describe was an in and out only on the right top of the man's skull...

You can download my graphics and mark right on them yourself Pat, I know you know how...

That xray at the top of my previous post showing how absurd your presentation of fact as fiction really is...

Don't talk about what he said or she said... tell us how THAT PIECE OF AUTOPSY EVIDENCE supports an exit from anywhere but the front..

How the Autopsy report itself does the same...

What are you asking? Why is there no bone behind the absence of bone? Does that make sense? If you're asking me if the x-rays reflect the condition of Kennedy's skull at the beginning of the autopsy, and as depicted in the photos taken at the beginning of the autopsy, the answer is of course they do. The fractures on the x-ray suggest conspiracy. The fragments on the outside of the skull suggest conspiracy. The x-rays you think are fake will ultimately prove to be the evidence that convinces the scientific world there was a conspiracy. I've been spreading this message for nearly a decade, and found a very receptive audience at the Cyril Wecht Institute of Forensic Science and Law last November.

No sir... I am asking why we see bone in the lateral at the right rear - low to high... while that same bone is not there in the anterior... there is no bone to the right rear... it is GONE.

See how there is bone in the anterior on JFK's LEFT is running all the way from front to back? the density of the margins and the depth of the skull...

What conspiracy are YOU suggesting... none of the shots hit from the front, is your MAIN conclusion... and yet that was the key aspect of the shooting... a kill shot from the right front... and you stand there and deny it... yet that is NOT fostering information that hides the true nature of the conspiracy to cover-up...

You actually and honestly believe that a bullet wound could dislodge a person's entire brain... even though one entire side was relatively untouched... you didn't address that either at Wecht I bet...

Everyone else understands this it seems...

Brains do not FALL OUT Pat... that's not how the body works... for the last time.. explain how any number of bullets (which if you say happened would also prove the Zfilm and others to be altered) enters the skull and completely recreates the necessary incisions to accomplish a clean craniotomy... here yet again is anatomical representation of the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE you call authentic and indicative of multiple shooters ergo conspiracy... as opposed to multiple shooters, one from the front, (as the original intent was to suggest a Cuban/Russian conspiracy and unleash the dogs of war) and the wholesale destruction of evidence of said frontal shot sufficient to get the WCR published and the cover-up initiated.

Please oh please... just this once address this procedure and how the bullets performed it... Brains don't fall out... Skull does not self detach from scalp...

Address this with some honesty Pat...using what you have as autopsy evidence... show us how this was accomplished:

Start with Brain removal #1 and #2... and then look at what Boswell wrote about the "Superior longitudinal sinus" the "sagital (sic) sinus"

Sorry Pat, one need not be a brain surgeon to smell rotten fish... The steps to remove the brain are almost an exact recreation of the condition of the body as described at the autopsy... prove otherwise.

Thomas Evan Robinson was the mortician.

1) Mr. Robinson said there was a "large gaping wound in the BACK OF THE HEAD." He told Joe West that “stretching a piece of rubber over it” had covered it. He also felt the skull was "full of Plaster of Paris."

2) He noted a "smaller wound in the right temple" (1/4" across) that was so near the hairline that it was covered from sight. He would plug this wound with wax. (Remember Malcolm Kilduff’s pointing to the temple?)

3) He said he patched two shrapnel wounds to JFK's face with wax.

If you read the records carefully you'll find that Robinson did not do the skull reconstruction, and that the man who did the skull reconstruction was never interviewed.

This reconstruction was done in the Bethesda morgue, and not at the mortuary. So, yeah, plenty of people were watching...

As I recall, moreover, Robinson noted but one small wound on the face, and felt certain that this was not an entrance wound, but perhaps a shrapnel wound or an exit of a fragment.

A lot of nonsense has been spewed about Robinson. Those desperate to believe Kennedy's wounds were altered, cite Robinson as Exhibit 1A. in Horne's book, he unintentionally reveals the silliness of all this. He has Robinson see an orange-sized hole on the back of Kennedy's head, Humes expand this into a big hole, then the morticians reconstruct the head so that it once again has an orange-sized hole on the back of Kennedy's head, which is then observed by Robinson's co-worker, and photographed. These photographs are then developed by Saunda Spencer.

This is as illogical as can be.

1. If they were gonna photograph an orange-sized hole on the back of the head, why not just take a photo of the orange-sized hole at the beginning of the autopsy?

2. Why assume the orange-sized hole observed by Robinson and the orange-sized hole observed by his co-worker were observed at different times? They came together. They worked together. They left together. They gave the same description for the wound. (It seems clear from this, moreover, that Horne was trying to avoid the obvious--that the orange-sized hole observed by Robinson was observed during reconstruction--when the morticians were trying to make Kennedy presentable for an open-casket funeral.)

Anyhoo...

Why Pat? Cause all of the Medical Evidence from the WCR was staged to support a shot from the rear exiting the front right of the skull... and putting one LHO in a place he never was.

That you remain so tied to evidence that is so obviously NOT indicative of JFK's wounds in Dallas... and that you spread this "conclusion" to each and every thread you come to is simply unbelieveable...

Ask Sandra Sepencer about an orange sized hole in JFK's head... or Robert Knudsen... or those in the room taking photos and xrays prior to 7pm....

Here, use this to illustrate how the 2-3 inch right rear wound seen and described by virtually everyone in Dallas, is accurately represented by the autopsy evidence:

Explain to us how the drawings on the bottom from DALLAS are represented in the medical evidence : It was O'Connor who tells us they needed to fill his head with plaster of paris to keep it together for the embalming...

One last thing Pat... there is obviously bone to the LEFT REAR on the anterior xray and RIGHT REAR on the lateral... why is there no bone behind the gaping absence of bone forward and on the right of the Frontal Bone suture?

Your touting of the "official autopsy evidence" as authentic has to be one of the greatest ongoing presentations of organized disinformation seen since Cinque/Fetzer.... tried to prove methematically that they were correct about Doorman.... voodoo logic and a complete disregard for the actual evidence...

When did you start believing the official evidence in this case Pat? - given not a single piece can be authenticated, while most of the medical evidence has already been discredited as being either altered, copied, or of a skull which had been badly smashed prior to the "official" images being taken...

Sorry but I'm simply not going to let this lay... you're promoting a conclusion which enables the cover-up... and that just wont do.

And finally... please point to the person holding his hand over the 19x10cm absence of skull at the top of the head (where surgery was performed), and then explain why there is a surgical cut thru the spinal cord at the base of the brain, given where the fragment trail is... a bullet in and ourt of the back of the head crushed the vomer as well as fracture the floor of the skull, while ALSO taking a 1" by 2.5" inch gouge running from occipital to eye socket out of the TOP of the skull AND curtting all the connections of the brain, skull and scalp on the LEFT SIDE of the head so the brain just falls into Humes' hands...

Should be easy, right? I'll be waiting

Hi Kathy...

Given the onion layers we have here...

Isn't it just as likely that Ruby was made to kill Oswald for reasons having nothing to do with the assassination but with the fear of what else a "questioned and talking" courtroom Oswald may have exposed?

Ruby spoke of "LBJ the Nazi", and to show how tough Jews were, etc... while being up to his eyeballs in running supplies to both sides of the Cuban situation.

A third option remaines the Harvey and Lee phenomenon... and the desperate need to dispose of the patsy...

(Hoover sends men to Stripling to confiscate records of LHO from 1955 on saturday 11/23 at 7am... LHO never went to Stripling... and the cheshire cat grins)

Where do you get the idea that Baker was supposed to kill Oswald... or are you referring to someone else?

Depending on who Oswald really was and what he was actually doing... and the same with Ruby*... I think "reasons" for most anything will remain elusive....

Hey there Mark...

Let's see - civilians who work daily in an ER and are not under strict orders to do anything other than their job, have one set of descriptions of the man's injuries which match with the first two people who saw the wounds from a distance of 1 foot.

while military personnel under orders of silence or else court martial are tasked with performing a proceedure they barely have any experience in and are told by up to three senior ranking officers what to do and NOT to do...

also give us an "official autopsy" where the initial draft and notes are destroyed, while the only forensic autopsist's notes are "vanished" and the "official" record contradicts each and every other account taken prior to JFK getting put into the bronze casket.

Nope, nothing to see here... everyone just move along...

David, there was no official timekeeper at Kennedy's autopsy, nor is there at other autopsies. A day or a week or a month later someone sits down and says "Hmmm, what time was that again?" And then writes something down. Never in a million years do they dream that some day someone will come along and claim they really performed two autopsies, and that the discrepancies in their recollection when compared to the recollections of others present at the autopsy is the proof. I mean, what time did you have dinner last night? 7:00? Because your wife said you ate at 6:00. Oh, I see, you left for the restaurant at 6, arrived at 6:20, got your table at 6:40, ordered at 6:45, and received your meal at 7:00. Well, then why did your wife say 6:00? Sorry, but I think all the nit-picking regarding the exact time of the autopsy is just nonsense

LOL... as if we're talking about when we had dinner last night... good one Pat.

After looking thru all the PRE-8pm evidence I posted, you still want to take the position that JFK was not in the morgue having xrays done prior to 7pm?

That Humes is wrong about 6:45-7pm

That the FBI/Ss agents did NOT bring in an empty casket at 7:17

That the xray techs carrying the films up for developing as the ambulance arrives did NOT see Jackie and Bobby enter while the casket lay in the ambulance

That Dennis David and a team of men did NOT carry in a metal shipping casket from a black hearse

That HUMES did not call FINCK who arrived at 8:30 to a set of xrays that would take much longer than 15-20 minutes to take and develop, if they had started at 8pm

That Lipsey - giving away the "decoy" plan - mistakenly forgets to account fro getting the body out of the first casket and into the other.

Let's start with two simple questions then Pat... when did the ambulance arrive at the front of Bethesda in relation to when the autopsy started?

and the second... Why is there such a huge conflict in the times of arrival? From Boyijean, to Dennis David, to the xray tech, to the SS/FBI movement of the casket, to the MDW's report...

none of them jive...

the MDW report - from Bird - http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=694&relPageId=1

states some very interesting info:

1) It either claims to have moved JFK from AF-1 to the ambulance at 6:10 or 7:10 based on how you read it... yet the movement from the ambulance to the morgue occurs at 2000 (8pm)

2) It states that there were two helicopters flown from Andrews related to the MDW, one with Wehle and one with a second casket team, both landing at Bethesda... page 3, section 1 paragraph H...

and 3) in Section 2 paragraph A. it says that the helicopters arrived at 6:45 and immediately thereafter the ambulance arrived at the hospital, except while Galloway is talking to McHugh there is considerable confusion as to where the body would be taken (as if that was a trick question?) but the FIRST Joint team finally does find both the ambulance and casket... and records an 8pm entry...

------------------------

This sure makes it appear that EXACT TIME was recorded... somewhere... in a report of something

or is he just pulling this out of his ..... ??

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to.

Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours.

Then there is the testimony of FBI agent Sibert in MD153 which confirms the arrival and "immediate" loading times....

Are you actually going to take the position that the time Kellerman, Greer and the FBI brings the casket in and what the MDW did are not mutually exclusive?

Are you also going to try and convince us that the navy ambulance sits out front for an hour before the MDW finally meets up with it at the back and carries the casket into the morgue?

Or are these two facts that every schoolboy should know at this point?

And what of Lipsey's statement? which in turn has to mean that the body which entered the plane in the Parkland casket, was somehow changed... which also jives with the 2 Joint Casket teams arriving at Bethesda prior to 7pm.

Lipsey's statement:

The hearse carrying Kennedy’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital’s rear entrance, a loading dock. Lipsey and Wehle had hopped from Air Force One to the hospital in a helicopter. A “decoy” hearse, accompanied by Jacqueline Kennedy and presidential aides, had arrived at the front of the hospital a few minutes earlier. As expected, it drew a mob of awaiting reporters, photographers and onlookers.

Here is the After Action Report of the MDW... pages 2 and 6 are of particular interest as it tells of the SS interference with the casket, the time of arrival, and how only the path from the helipad to the morgue was "guarded" as the instruction to the MDW was that JFK was arriving via helicopter. http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

and finally the WCR itself contradicts the "official" report.... based on Humes' own testimony...

The WCR:

The hospital received the President's body for autopsy at approximately 7:35 p.m. (277) http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-2.html#return

277: 2 H 349 (Comdr. James J. Humes). http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-18.html#chapter2

Except HUMES tells us earlier and earlier as the years pass....

While I can understand there being some discrepency in times recorded...

why do you suppose so much of it includes arrival times well before the "official" 8pm unveiling of the skull that falls apart in Humes' hands?

P.S. I hope you realize that I am not some outlier and that David Mantik and Doug Horne concluded, long before I, that the x-rays are authentic, and show there was missing brain at the front of the skull, and not missing skull as you seem to believe. (To be clear, Mantik believes the x-rays are Kennedy's but that a white patch was added on the side of the lateral, and a 6.5 mm fragment added to the A-P.)

Yes Pat... authentic images of an altered subject...exactly as Horne describes it. A subject altered in such a way as to make it impossible to conclude a shot was fired from the front and exited the back... and you are somewhat off base with regards to what the xrays and those who have interpreted them, say.

There is BONE PRESENT posterior to the Frontal suture line on the right side of the skull in the lateral xray - yes or no?

There is NO BONE PRESENT anterior of this Frontal Suture line on the right side of the skull - yes or no?

There is NO BRAIN PRESENT on either the front right or left sides of the lateral xray - yes or no?

The Autopsy Evidence states that the left side of the skull and brain were completely intact - yes or no?

YOU believe that when he unwrapped the head at 8pm, the processes which separate the dura from the skull and the skull from the brain had been so thoroughly damaged ON BOTH SIDES that this 1500cc brain just "fell out" - yes or no?

YOU believe that this was the condition of JFK as seen, reported, and testified to in Dallas

With regards to Ebersole... maybe read what his peers and subordinates said about him at the ARRB? or what he tells us HE DID in his testimony?

Ebersole: "Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck"

Pat, NONE of these words make any sense, "ecumonic" is not a real word and neither is "ecolobular" - meanwhile JFK's LIPS ARE SUTURED SHUT !! ??

Dr. BADEN. These three films in particular, were they all taken before the autopsy was begun?

Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. The skull films were definitely taken before the autopsy.

Dr. BADEN. Did you repeat the skull films?

Dr. EBERSOLE. To my knowledge.

So PAT... where be the 2nd set of head xrays? Ebersole was a tool.

Pat... what was the title of this thread? "Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head?" and then you go on to claim that since F8 is incorrectly positioned, they really claimed it came out the back of the head... or the Clark Panel does, NOT the autopsy Doctors...

What again are you REALLY trying to prove here Pat? It appears to be that you want to conclude that the Autopsy Evidence accurately reflects the damage done in Dallas...

Although you simply cannot deal with what happens between 6:40 and 8pm... your avoidance of that time period is, well, overly obvious.

How can xrays be taken of JFK in the morgue prior to 8pm, or how can HUMES see the body at 6:45... if he was in the ambulance out front?

Grow a pair and answer the question...

============

Scott... instead of assuming what I think... ANSWER THE QUESTION that I pose above to Pat... 8pm is the official start of the autopsy, the time the MDW carries the casket into the morgue...

Do I really need to post that document too? Humes, along with a number of other witnesses encounter JFK in the morgue prior to 7pm, PRIOR to the time the ambulance arrives from Andrews...

Whether SOME ALTERATION occurred on AF-1... IDK. the throat wound appears to have been enlarged on route... but the critical question remains

If JFK was NOT in the ambulance in the casket that arrives out front at 6:55... and HUMES basically confirms it....

How did he get from the Parkland Casket to the shipping casket and then to Bethesda ahead of the ambulance?

Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?

A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately

Q: And who helped lift the casket out of the ambulance?

(Sibert)A: Of course, I’ve read something about casket teams but I don’t have any recollection of any casket teams on the scene at that time. I recall there was Kellerman and Greer - who was the driver - O’Neill and myself…. (7:17 entry)

What are the two of you trying to hide about that time period? Or do you simply have no way to save yourselves from the obvious ?

Boyers ". . . right side and towards the rear. . ."

Ebersole ". . . my recollection is more of a gaping occipital wound . . ." (Please see what FINCK says about Ebersole*... HE was the one who interpreted the autopsy xrays... and yet HE is an occipital wound witness?)

Jenkins ". . . middle temporal region back to the occipital."

O'Niell drew a wound above and behind the ear for the HSCA.

Reed told the HSCA the wound was very large and located in the right hemisphere in the occipital region.

Riebe told the HSCA there was one very large wound located around the rear of the head near the top.

Siebert ". . . upper back of the head."

Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm...

And no Scott.. we are talking about the Bethesda Autopsy Medical evidence which Mr Speer believes is the condition of the head in Dallas...

The xrays, photos, autopsy report and its supplemental IS the evidence whic contradicts everyone who sees JFK prior to 8pm... EVERYONE.

We see once again you simply cannot address the 6:40-8pm timeframe and how the drawings/witnesses of a 2-3 inch hole in the back of his head becomes the ENTIRE SKULL MISSING from the occipital to the Frontal bone fron the Midline down to the ear...

Please point out any AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that describes a 2-3 inch hole in the right area of the occipital... what they SAID and what the Autopsy Evidence became - are, as I've been stating all along, NOT the same. and THAT is the point seemingly lost on you and Pat... THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS DID NOT THINK ANYTHING EXITED THE BACK OF THE HEAD, THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS ENLARGED A 2-3 INCH OCCIPITAL WOUND INTO WHAT WE SEE YET CONFLICTS ON THE XRAYS...

For those of use who appreciate evidence presented in its original form with illustration to help explain them... I offer the following AUTOPSY EVIDENCE from the MOUTHS OF THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS THEMSELVES... covering the period from WCR thru ARRB - Look again at the title of this thread...

Has the argument been made that they DID think the bullet exited the BACK of the head or not?

- Commander HUMES - No, sir; I am speaking here of the wound in the occiput. The wound on the inner table,

- This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, and slightly above the external occiptal protuberance

- These had disclosed to us multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye (These are those fragments that extend to the TOP of the occipital, where these is no entry wound, to just above the right eye... what a surprise.)

- Commander HUMES - Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, made its exit through this large defect.

- You will note that the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on Exhibit 388 is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not yet discussed in the low neck

Colonel FINCK - Letter B.(by the arrow leaving the top of the head) We will see portions of bone in this general area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of President Kennedy. I had enough curvature to identify outside of the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the specimen, and then I could determine the location of the beveling, and I could therefore say that B, Commission Exhibit 388, is a wound of exit.

(btw - Finck does not use the word OCCIPTIAL in his WCR testimony at all)

HSCA

Dr. FINCK. Well, I would say that this was the wound of entry to the right of the external occipital protuberance

Dr. PETTY. No, that is not quite what I asked. Can you tell where the penetrating gunshot wound went? I am not asking for entrance or exit but the course.

Dr. FINCK. The track. I cannot identify a track.

(The Forensic Autopsist cannot tell us the track of the missle which supposedly entered the right rear and exited the top of the head... but he/they can tell us that's what it did... right!)

*Dr. FINCK. To a much lesser extent. When it comes to interpretation of radiographs I always consult the radiologists.

Dr. BADEN. Was there a radiologist present?

Dr. FINCK. Dr. Ebersole.

Dr. BADEN. Did you consult with Dr. Ebersole about that

Dr. FINCK. Dr. Ebersole interpreted the radiographs as far as I remember. He came to the autopsy room

(So this witness - Ebersole - is able to look at the lateral xray and claim he sees a massive occipital wound ??? Right!)

Dr. FINCK. Again I think that there were only two wound tracks, one in the back and one exit, and the front of the throat that is wound track number one and the second wound track was an entry in the back of the head with a large exit on the top and right side of the head. (Hey wait - didn't FINCK say there was no identifiable track?... yup, right here)

Dr. FINCK. The track. I cannot identify a track.

CLAY SHAW TRIAL:

Q: Doctor, as a result of your examination of the head, the head of the late President, what, if you have one, is your opinion as to the direction from which the bullet which inflicted the head wound came?

A: The bullet definitely struck in the back of the head, disintegrated, which is often the case when such a bullet at high velocity goes through bone, producing numerous fragments, many of them seen on X-ray of the head, and of the bony portion of the exit, and also recovered by us, we found fragments in the brain of the President, and that projectile produced that wound of exit on the right side and top of the head.

If you take the middle of this wound of exit, the general direction of this missile path, p-a-t-h, is from the rear to the front going downward

(CE388 (AUTOPSY "evidence" and reality)

Mr. SPECTER - And specifically, as to the points of entry and points of exit which have been testified to by Doctor Humes, do his views express yours as well?

Commander BOSWELL - They do, yes.

Boswell ARRB:

Q. When you refer to the teardrop, you're referring to the fifth view described as the "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region."

A. Right, yes.

HSCA:

where it was, above the external occipital protuberance; therefore, I believe that is the wound of entry

Let me ask you first, your autopsy report reflected that there was one and only one bullet wound to the back of the President s head, that it did enter in the rear, exited the front. Is that report accurate on those three points, to the best of your knowledge?

Dr. HUMES. Absolutely.

HUMES - ARRB:

Q. Okay. Just for any scalp lacerations, were there any tears over the occipital bone?

A. No. No.

Q. None whatsoever?

A. No.

Q. There were tears, however, over the temporal--

A. Temporal and parietal.

Q. And the parietal.

A. Yes.

"We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.

The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex"

The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.

The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration.

In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain.

When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution.

Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description.

When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.

This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.

Scott... you have way too many questions in your que before I start to address yours....

Deal with Besthesda between 6:40 and 8pm first....

Reconcile O'Connor's 8pm with HUMES' 6:45 first

With regards to what I believe about the medical evidence - if you haven't been able to figure it out by now with everything I've posted, I can't help you.

Stop avoiding the issue - for the Bethesda evidence to be accurate, nothing had to have happened to JFK's head from Dallas to xrays...

Please, and once again, post an image or description of the man's head by ANYONE prior to 8pm - that supports or authenticates the medical evidence offered from the autopsy...

Changing the subject with each and every post only undermines your credibility here Scott... Pat's in the same boat...

Until you address ALL the ARRB evidence related to Bethesda - you'renot really doing anything but being argumentative....

I posted a very detailed image showing DALLAS versus BETHESDA... repeatedly ignoring the questions in favor of asking your own is a TACTIC Scott...

a tactic for ongoing posting with nothing to add, nothing to offer and nothing to rebut.

And it's gotten old. Between you and Pat, you'll post everything and anything but the evidence requested - since you don't have any to support the autopsy as an accurate description of JFK's Dallas wounds..

With that said... you and Pat can play these games all you want... you want to believe in Bethesda's honesty... believe.

I've posted my say and it speaks for itself. It also fills in for the silence the both of you offer in defense of your "conclusions"

Peace out buddy... I'm done with this conversation

DJ

What I am saying - outright without suggestion whatsoever... is that the 2-3 inch hole in the right rear of JFK's head as seen in Dallas was enlarged to cover the entire right side of the head from back to front... and in the process the original wound was obliterated, the brain showing the path of the bullet - obliterated, and that the skull/scalp/brain injuries described as obvious and evidence to those in the morgue after 8pm - and recorded in the autopsy - were ALL created by HUMES to make it impossible to determine what actually happened.

The larger wound dimensions described at Bethedsa can be easily explained by the fact that the hole in the skull was much larger than the hole in the scalp. As for the original wound, the morticians described an area of missing scalp in the back of the head approximately 3 inches across.

Now it sounds like you're just guessing Scott.... if that was the fact, the autopsy evidence would show a LARGE HOLE in the right rear of the head... it does not... the LARGE OPENING is now extending from the occipial to and thru the FRONTAL BONE... (c'mon here Scott... LOOK at the graphic below, the drawings from Parkland and the xrays which followed... Bell, Crenshaw, McClellend, Sibert, Robinson, even Boswell's initial drawing does not show the entire right side of his skull gone...)

Meanwhile the evidence Pat Speer uses does not show anything near a 3, 4 or even 6 inch hole across the back of his head... Pat Speer is telling us the shot came from behind and exited the top right taking with it the entire right portion of the FRONTAL BONE... if there was not bone there Scott... what was holding up his face in the anterior xray?? Why does not a single soul say a single word about the FRONT of his head other than "From the front, nothing"....

Scott, if you want to coinvince anyone, how about bringing something to the evidentiary table and support it - kinda simple if you are in the right and have the backing, no?

As I asked Pat... maybe you can point to anyone anywhere who drew us a pre 8pm picture of JFK's wounds that looks anything at all like the evidence below.... neither of you seem to be able to do so, nor can you address the 6:40 thru 8pm time period with any sense of reality.

For us all, once and for all, explain how xrays of JFK are taken while the ambulance from Andrews is pulling up, while Jackie and Bobby are coming inside, BEFORE the SS/FBI teams bring in THAT casket at 7:17...

Can you fashion a post that addresses these key issues or as we are seeing over and over, you and Pat simply avoid what you can't explain...?

Why is this, again? Why is it okay for some conspiracy theorists to ignore the statements of MOST ALL the witnesses, but not okay for other conspiracy theorists and all single-assassin theorists to assume SOME of the witnesses were wrong, and defer to the accuracy of the autopsy photos, assassination films, and x-rays?

Because ACCURACY and JFK AUTOPSY are not even allowed in the same sentence let alone to be offered as a conclusion.

Once again Pat... 6:40pm thru 8pm at the Bethesda morgue... xrays of JFK taken while the ambulance sits outside... FBI/SS carry in a casket at 7:17...

MDW carries in a casket at 8pm...

Humes is working with the body - according to HIS WORD - from about 6:45 pm until 5 am....

You have yet to do a single thing to authenticate any single piece of Bethesda medical evidence other tho declare it correct and evidence worth "deferring" to...

YOU want us to use two of the most fraudulent xrays ever created as definitive evidence for the injuries sustained...

You DON'T take the time to follow the autopsy data and see what that actually means on a skull and brain.... but I did that for you Pat... and you STILL haven't the "???" to address it... Like the Bethesda alteration timeline, you simply ignore it and talk about statements people made later....

Show us how this medical evidence is "accurate" and reflective of the testimony you keep copying and pasting...

Are you claiming that there are people - ANYWHERE - who drew us a picture that comes anywhere close to JFK's autopsy evidence of a missing Frontal Bone and a wedge removed from his head from front to back? Of course there's Boswell's drawing - yet another disconnect for you and your analysis... another item to ignore...

So Pat... point to the location on the back of the skull where the bullet goes in and leave a particle trail where we see it... do you notice the fragment mapping that is posted in the upper right corner of my graphic? and the obviously forged 6.5mm round ?? at the back of the skull... which is not seen anywhere else or corroborated by anyone else, save Ebersole... I assume you know his story...

WHERE IS THE HSCA PANEL's entry wound and WHY is there bone in the right rear of the lateral yet is gone in the anterior??? THIS is the evidence you continue to base your work upon... and most every professional who has had the opportunity to honestly evaluate this evidence has shown you what a complete crock of sh!t is it....

But you keep believing it's authentic and indicative of the Dallas injuries.... and you keep selling it to anyone who'll listen and believe... the rest of us know better... and will continue to ask that you back you work up with more than he said she said... WHO, prior to 8pm agrees with the medical evidence which - as if you didn't know - supports the SBT of events... another impossibility... or are you going to now defend that as being possible?

I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there

when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45.

YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy...

Do you mean the shipping casket O'Connor said "came in at eight o'clock on the dot" buddy?

Are you suggesting that the hole seen in Parkland wasn't there after 8:00?

Scott, if you're going to be cute and witty, post what was written, or what he actually said with a link to the source - as opposed to your paraphasing... k, buddy?

MD64: O'Connor said that the casket was a pink

shipping casket and it arrived approximately eight o'clock

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=389587

So how accurate is that statement Scott? Given all the other testimony we have about that time period... is it not possible the HSCA written paraphrased time is not right?

If you have the source for his exact quote as you posted... please post the link... I simply posted the quote from his HSCA recap written by Jim Kelley and Andy Purdy

thanks.

In the meantime, if the casket with JFK in it did not arrive until "8:00 on the dot"... how is this testimony possible - and getting earlier and earlier with each investigation?

(let alone all the other evidence regarding the pre-8pm time frame

WCR

Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening

HSCA

Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening

ARRB

Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?

A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately.

What I am saying - outright without suggestion whatsoever... is that the 2-3 inch hole in the right rear of JFK's head as seen in Dallas was enlarged to cover the entire right side of the head from back to front... and in the process the original wound was obliterated, the brain showing the path of the bullet - obliterated, and that the skull/scalp/brain injuries described as obvious and evidence to those in the morgue after 8pm - and recorded in the autopsy - were ALL created by HUMES to make it impossible to determine what actually happened.

I post this graphic yet again in hopes you can see that it shows the complete difference between those in Dallas and those in DC prior to 8pm...

Boswell's drawing comes AFTER HUMES performs "surgery to the top of the head".... and as we can see - not a single person who sees JFK prior to 8pm says a different thing... while all those after 8pm and after the damage is done, describes a thoroughly enlarged and completely changed injury

In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc...

If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point...

By earliest I mean the first statements given describing their recollections of the wounds. For many of the witnesses at Bethesda this would be the HSCA. You can start with some of the people you name above.

With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier...

Where does Lifton describe tear radiating fron a hole above the rt. ear. The only illustration I remember of the tears in his book appears to have the tears radiating from a hole in the top of the head.

I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there

when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45.

YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy...

Regarding Lifton... there is a very specific area of the book that goes into detail about the processes and the location of "extended tears" in the scalp...

If DSL is around and reading this he can surely point you to the exact pages/sections... but you need to READ it Scott... not everything can be summed up with illustrations...

I then went ahead and found and posted the procedures related to that part of the autopsy... to help illustrate the situation for you...

I still have the same questions you seem to avoid -

1) what occurred between 6:40 and 8pm at the Bethesda morgue?

2) If xrays of JFK are being developed - who do Sibert/O'Neill/Greer and Kellerman bring into the ante-room at 7:17... ?? After Galloway delays McHugh at the front of the Hospital...

3) what is the MDW dooing at 8pm with a casket?

Addressing these questions will go a long way in our understanding your POV here Scott.... either you get it or you deny it... and if you deny it - an explanation is in order...

Thanks

DJ

So, that’s it. While many people studying the Kennedy assassination have convinced themselves there was a “blow-out” wound involving chiefly occipital bone low on the back of Kennedy’s head, there is virtually nothing to support this in the earliest statements regarding Kennedy’s wounds…

IT IS A MYTH.

Once again we have Mr Speer contradicting himself in his own posts…. He will describe numerous people telling us where he was HIT, yet none of the people are telling us what the result of these FRONTAL HITS was… until we get to Hill and Jackie… and Parkland

What is Mr Speer trying to prove here I wonder? That ALL the witnesses in Dallas who drew a hole at the right rear of JFK’s head were WRONG… and that the fraudulent medical evidence in the record created at Bethesda is accurate… a TRUE representation of the wounds – as if NOTHING TOUCHED JFKs HEAD between Dallas and those images – Me Speer continues to insult the intelligence of anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes reviewing the medical evidence and looking at an anatomical image of the head…

Why is proving nothing happened at Bethesda to change the nature of the injuries so critical for Mr Speer at this point? Do pages and pages of analysis and conclusion wind up just being a wonderful presentation of a fraud leading him down paths with no basis in reality? If the medical evidence Pat basis all of his conclusions upon were created by HUMES and not by a second or third bullet… what becomes of these well thought out conclusions?

Has Mr Speer addressed 6:40 thru 8pm and all the testimony and activity that undermines his never changing wound assumptions?

Not once other than to dismiss it since it completely destroys these other conclusions…

So here is a recap of all the evidence he posted showing the MYTH of a rear blow-out in the earliest testimony/statements… compared and contrasted to:

Dr. William Kemp Clark, who had examined the President's head wound and pronounced him dead: "I was called by Dr. Perry because the President... had sustained a brain wound…It was apparent that the President had sustained a lethal wound. A missile had gone in or out of the back of his head, causing extensive lacerations and loss of brain tissue." (When asked to describe the course of the bullet through the head) "We were too busy to be absolutely sure of the track, but the back of his head...Principally on his right side, towards the right side...The head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue."

It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right temple

A missile had gone in or out of the back of his head, causing extensive lacerations and loss of brain tissue."

The wound at the back of the head, while the principal one, was either an exit or tangential entrance wound

the back of the head wound as: "A large gaping wound with considerable loss of tissue."

There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput

attempt to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via packs instituted

A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted,

The occipito-parietal, which is a part of the back of the head, had a huge flap

There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound (google cerebellum for location)

On first observation of the remaining wounds the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing

And that’s not the only indication McClelland failed to see a “blow-out” wound on the back of Kennedy’s head (as we note, his DRAWING is of course showing only damage to the FRONT LEFT of the skull – right Pat?)

noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing

and here is everyone he preferred to leave out:

Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what?

Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.

Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?

Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.

Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?

Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.

…..

Mr. SPECTER - And what action did you take at that time, if any?

Miss BOWRON - I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him?

Dr. AKIN - There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipital/parietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding

PRICE EXHIBITs 2-35 – Parkland personnel reports: p2

Two wounds, one in t1he lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull were noted

There was a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region,

ACTIVITIES OF PAT HUTTON : Mr. Kennedy was bleeding profusely from a wound on the back of his head, and was lying there unresponsive.

And finally the ARRB recap of the wounds as told back to the Parkland Doctors:

The only MYTH here is that this presentation of the information allows anyone to conclude that “there is virtually nothing to support this” where "THIS" is a blow-out involving the occipital bone exposing the underlying cerebellum… presentation of contrary evidence to PAT’s conclusion on this thread has been carefully ignored… and yet again Mr Speer completely ignores the actual medical evidence he so proudly proclaims is authentic – which completely contradicts what ANYONE says about the injury prior to 8pm Friday night…

This repeated re-threading of “proofs” which do not prove the intended result is again – amazing, given that it DISPROVES what Pat tries to show – that the Med evidence from Bethesda is AUTHENTIC…

Do we now need to go person by person from the ARRB as well? When does DISINFORMATION regarding the medical evidence, presented as fact on this site get called out for what it is?

Or am I completely wrong here? That the evidence in this thread SUPPORTS that there is no evidence of a rear blow-out based on these “early” observations? If I am – and Pat – you have an explanation for the 6:40-8pm timeframe – and/or why you defend the WCR Medical evidence - PLEASE POST IT… otherwise you are continuing to foster and promote a completely wrong and convoluted presentation of the medical evidence… better suited for the members of the “Lone Nut – aint it obvious” forums… when those of us here know better… much better than to accept your ONLY SHOTS FROM BEHIND arguments

GUNN ARRB:

At this point I just want to briefly refer to previous statements that had been made by you and the other doctors regarding the wound to President Kennedy's head.

Going back to Dr. Carrico -- and again, this one is not present for you -- he said to the House Select Committee on Assassinations that there was a large wound in the right side of the head in the parieto-occipital area. One could see blood and brains, both cerebral and cerebrum fragments in that wound. Let me -- let me read this again. He said both cerebellum and cerebrum fragments in that wound. I stated that incorrectly. Later he said -- this -- still to the House Select Committee on Assassinations -- "The head wound was much larger wound than the neck wound. It was five by seven centimeters, something like that, two-and-a-half by three. inches, ragged , had blood and hair all around it, located in the part of the parieto-occipital region, and there was brain tissue showing through."

The next testimony comes from Dr. Clark. This is MD 37. And in a summary that was typed up -- this is on Commission Exhibit 392 -- again, part of the package that I have given to you -- he refers to there was a wound, one in the lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull. And then on the second page Dr. Clark referred to "there was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region"

Then in his testimony to the Warren Commission he refers on page 20 to a large gaping wound in the right posterior part with cerebral -excuse me -cerebral & cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed.

On Page 29 he says that there was a much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull from which consider -- considerable blood loss had occurred, which stained the back of his head, neck, and upper shoulders.

Then to Dr. Jenkins he refers -- this is from packet MD 96. He refers to a great laceration on the right side of the head temporal and occipital. He also says the cerebellum had protruded from the wound.

In his testimony to the Warren Commission he said that -- on Page 48 he thought that this wound in the head was a wound of exit, although he wasn't sure. He said, quote, "I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound." He then said that, "I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process."

From Page 51 of his Warren Commission testimony he says, "Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was it a wound of exit."

Finally in his testimony to the House Select Committee on Assassinations he said, There was one segment of bone blown out. It was a segment of occipital or temporal bone. He noted that a portion of the cerebellum, lower rear brain, was hanging out from the hole in the right rear of the head.

Then Dr. Jones in his testimony to the Warren Commission -- this is Packet MD 98. On Page 53 he says there was a small wound at the midline of the neck and a large wound in the right posterior side of the head, a large -- later, there was a large defect in the back side of the head.

And then in-- testimony to the Warren Commission on Page 56 he said that there appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull. And, Mr. Specter referred to that as the top of the President's head.

Daniel, I agree that an individuals earliest recollections are more reliable since it tends to eliminate the problem of memory conformity. While I agree with Pat that most of the Parkland witnesses describe a wound in the upper back of the head, I was trying to point out to David that this is also where the earliest accounts of the Bethesda witnesses place it. As I was trying to point out above, the description of the scalp tears in the autopsy report also place the area of missing scalp in right rear of the head.

In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc...

If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... The FBI memo from just after 9:18pm on 11/22 of a bullet still behind the POTUS' ear, and that the SS had secured the other bullet on its way from Dallas... - this was DURING the post 8pm autopsy...

With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... by 8pm the scalp did already appear as if a crude craniotomy had been performed to remove most of the remaining brain tissue. with Humes simply extending these lacerations and the skull just fell apart in his hands... (The separation of scalp from skull is one of the harder things to accomplish without precision... not knowing what the man looked like in Dallas facilitated hiding the truth...

If one was to read the description of the condition of the head at autopsy, freshly unwrapped... - supposedly not a single thing had been done to the skull from the Parkland ER table to this point... nothing.. and those xrays were taken and those photos were taken.... while ARRB testimony illuminates that crowded little room...

Looking again at the lateral xray I am hard pressed to 1) understand Hill's & Bowron's statements or 2) attempting life-saving procedures with no skull from the Frontal bone forward, from mid-line at least, to his cheek, and all the way back to the occipit.... as if a wedge was removed... and 3) dismiss "from the front, nothing" being uttered at the devastation... while the back of his head is open...

Bethesda remains the line in the sand... the coup happened in that room under strict and direct order of 3 Navy Rear Admirals and a 4 star AF general.

What left that hospital WAS the cover-up of the conspiracy to kill JFK and take over the reins of the USA - overtly and directly...

....

Scott - some of the questions you ask about Bethesda are curious given your strong convictions and opinions...

how can you dismiss what we've said about that time period when the reference for it comes ultimately from Humes... and then the xray techs developing the first set of film seeing Jackie in the lobby... corroborated reports, sightings, and evidence... Direct FBI testimony that at 7:17 HE and his partner brought JFK into the ante-room of the morgue... calls and timing for Finck to arrive and xrays to be ready....

Again... these "early" accounts - if after 8pm... can you show us what you mean?

Sorry Scott... the way you spoke of CE399 - I thought it important that the record be clear on THAT bullet.... so I posted some of the evidence.

I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that.

Scott... which autopsy results and physical evidence offered are you talking about that does not support a single shot from above and behind UNTIL one takes the time to plot it on a skull... and even though the damage is far more extensive than a single bullet could cause... any and all easily understandable evidence that could be related to a frontal shot has been removed...

The autopsy report states that the Bullet entered low on the back of the head. The Clark Panel had to raise this wound to get the trajectory to work for a shot from above and behind. Pat pointed out that the exit (beveling on the skull not missing scalp) wasn't moved to the forehead until the HSCA came along. The only thing we have to base the exit point on from the autopsy is the Rydberg Drawing. That's one hell of an upward angle even with the bogus head angle.

"The only thing we have to base the exit point on from the autopsy is the Rydberg Drawing. That's one hell of an upward angle even with the bogus head angle."

Hey Scott... sorry but I must disagree again, respectfully

The lateral xray shows the entire right FRONT gone... The anterior... even more of the right side to the front is gone... which matches none of the Fox images...

Small hole in back LARGE hole in front... is what the XRAYS show... A conflicting fragment trail for sure, but the evidence is constructed so there is simply no overt evidence of the blow-out to the occipit.

Ryberg is certainly not the only evidence from the autopsy that suggests an exit point... although "point" is a misnomer... "exit area blown out" is more accurate

The xrays were going with the SS and imo at that time, Bethesda personnel believed they would never see the light of day.... yes - I think the SS and Military and FBI were that arrogant about the evidence that they were going to make it say just what was needed... and did in most every area of the case...

Yet you dont address the 6:40-8pm Bethesda time other than to dismiss the casket changes and work done by HUMES on the body...

What do you think was happening while xrays are being developed yet JFK had just arrived out front

Without understanding or at least offering a reasonable alternative... the EVIDENCE from those there is pretty illuminating from that time period... and basically proves that the injuries as recorded in Bethesda do not match what they were in Dallas....

a. From the right inferior temporo-parietal margin anterior to the right ear to a point slightly above the tragus."

Translation: There is an area of missing scalp with irregular edges from which tears radiate. The lower right margin of this defect is in the temporo-parietal region. Tear A begins at this lower right margin and goes forward to the right ear to a point just above the tragus. The only way this tear can go forward to the right ear is if the scalp defect is behind it.

"anterior to the right ear" is the end of that injury's description... isn't anterior TO THE FRONT.. ? So the tear in the skull/scalp from IN FRONT OF THE RIGHT EAR extends to a point ABOVE THE Little bump on the EAR. In the image I posted, the letter a) is just above the tragus with a line extending from the TP-margin,which is even further forward, BACK to the point above the tragus...

In F7 this appears as the cracked bone flap in front of the ear.. in F3 it is completely covered up and the scalp is shown as intact...

In answer to the thread's topic question... the autopsy DRs KNEW the bullet exited the back of the head... and it was changed between 6:40 and 8pm at Bethesda so no evidence could be offered to support a frontal shot... discussing the autopsy materials as indicative of Dallas is, imo, folly...

Redlich to Rankin 4/27/64: How much more plain does it need to be?

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

PS I agree that Wesley Buell Frazier is not visible in any image prior to the Darnell film.

But I don't think Frazier is Prayer Man. Both WBF and Prayer Man are visible at the same time in the Malcolm Couch film.

Nor do I think Shelley is Prayer Man. Prayer Man isn't wearing a suit.

These are just intuitions on my part, so please don't DEMAND that I provide more EVIDENCE as to why I hold these beliefs.

I also agree that Suit and Tie Man in Altgens 6 may be William Shelley, although S&T Man looks bigger in girth than Shelley

Hi Tommy... welcome back.

and no worries, wont be asking you for any evidence or support for anything you wish to post.... how you choose to make your points is up to YOU... not me.

Yes indeed, IF that is Frazier, he is in the same frames as PM... and it does appear it is Frazier.

With the angles and such I'm not sure what is darkness and what is suitman's perimeter. Yet who/where esle could Shelley be?

Now a few ideas of who if MIGHT be...

1.

Could be a ligher skinned black man... but seems unlikely

2.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1547-001.gif

He claims to have been a) out front by the "Commerce Street" entrance... which is not possible since Commerce Street is on the other side of DP,the mirror image od Elm.

and later he is on the steps with Shelley, Stanton, Mr. Reed, Mrs. Sanders and Eddie Piper.. (I find no info on REED)

Why again can this not be Molina?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.

Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders.

Mr. MOLINA. Yes

She (PAULINA) said (in this FBI report) she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/exhibits/ce1434.htm

3.

No info on him either....

Sorry Scott... the way you spoke of CE399 - I thought it important that the record be clear on THAT bullet.... so I posted some of the evidence.

I was pointing out that if they were going to create wounds to support shots from above and behind, their autopsy results do not support that.

Ok - then let's look at what the autopsy results do say... As I disagree with your statement above.

"There is edema and ecchymosis diffusely over the right supra-orbital ridge with abnormal mobility of the underlying bone. "

Laymans' terms:

"There is swelling and "the escape of blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels" over the "bony ridge located above the eye sockets" .... the underlying bone moves freely...

From the irregular margins of the above scalp defect tears extend in
stellate fashion into the more or less intact scalp as follows:

a. From the right inferior temporo-parietal margin anterior to the right
ear to a point slightly above the tragus.

b. From the anterior parietal margin anteriorly on the forehead to
approximately 4 cm. above the right orbital ridge.

c. From the left margin of the main defect across the midline
antero-laterally for a distance of approximately 8 cm. (an·ter·o·lat·er·al adj.In front and away from the middle line.)

d. From the same starting point as c. 10 cm. postero-laterally.

Situated in the posterior scalp approximately 2.5 cm. laterally to the
right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance is a
lacerated wound measuring 15 x 6 mm. In the underlying bone is a
corresponding wound through the skull which exhibits beveling of
the margins of the bone when viewed from the inner aspect of the
skull.

Summary:

The fatal missile entered the skull above and to the right of the external occipital protuberance.

...

A portion of the projectile made its exit through the parietal bone on the right carrying with it portions of cerebrum, skull and scalp

Received as separate specimens from Dallas, Texas are three
fragments of skull bone which in aggregate roughly approximate the
dimensions of the large defect described above.

The words "Frontal Bone" do not appear in the autopsy report in description of any wound or any exit... I've never said any of the medical evidence is consistent with each other, it's not,

I've posted Nurse Bowron's comments with an autopsy photo pretending to show no disruption to the back of the head the size of the open wound described by most everyone in Dallas

I've posted a very detailed image of what the autopsy and HUMES said and what that meant in physical terms... ALL back to front although running from the base of the skull to the middle and then again at the top (where HUMES took a saw to it)

Below is a graphic that represents the autopsy's findings about the skull they saw... (pun intended) and completely supports ONLY a shot from above and behind... with no other options.

Scott... which autopsy results and physical evidence offered are you talking about that does not support a single shot from above and behind UNTIL one takes the time to plot it on a skull... and even though the damage is far more extensive than a single bullet could cause... any and all easily understandable evidence that could be related to a frontal shot has been removed...

Finally - it is Pat Speer who is trying to convince us that the autopsy evidence is reliable and indicative of what occurred in Dallas... it most obviously is not, while ALL the autopsy evidence tries to suggest that shots were only fired from above and behind....

Soapbox serenade concluded...

Thanks again Emily...

From not reading my posts you sure are able to come up with some interesting comments about them...

And yet, lo and behold, you knew EXACTLY what I was trying to say... without all the words

Unfortunately, we can't say the same about your posts - even WITH all the words in the right places...

until you've posted them, reviewed them, been asked about them and finally correct them.... a few times.

You talking about "haste" ... amusing, Bro....

=======

So how about we try this one last time...

Please point to ANY image of Wesley in DP prior to the Darnell image... (we are tyring to authenticate the information provided about his location)

Where is Shelley - do YOU think he's SUIT&TIEman or not? I happen to think that's Shelley given the few people who were wearing a suit and tie AND claimed to be at the top of those stairs (If I'm wrong, why couldn't SHELLEY be PM?) or LOVELADY in the Darnell footage.... do you have anything to add as to where he is? (people come and go, just not PM)

and don't you find it a bit interesting that this person barely moves at all... arms remain in the same position, the same white spot, ....

Does that tell YOU anything?

See Thomas, questions which designed to start a discussion about what we KNOW or think and the evidence to support it... TRY it some time...

much more productive a pursuit than spell/grammar checker, or trying to read the minds of the players with "why did he do this or that..." questions

HOW are we suposed to know what is going on in the mind of a person you point to in a photo?

BTW,

No hard feeling whatsoever Tommy.... I hope you understand that...

Telling others how to do anything when your own house is not in order stuck me oddly and I reacted.

You're not anyone's mommy here Tommy.... and while some of my longer posts can be hard to follow.. this was not the case here... you remain the ONLY person to approach posting and posters like that

I hope you can see it's not your place to police us over minutia... but to have an interchange of ideas when CONTENT is misleading, incorrect, sparks thought or is perfectly in line with your thinking, etc, etc,...

Be well...

DJ

and yes, I spelled words wrong on purpose so you could feel good about catching them...

PS A couple of friendly suggestions:

Try "proofreading" your posts before and after you post them.

For example, "How can possible (sic) know..."

PPS, I never said anything negative about your "spelling." In fact, your spelling is exemplary.

Whatever you say Tommy.... "NEVER !!"

The first quote was your FIRST attempt at telling me how I should post... after I told Gene my reply was aimed at your "WHY oh WHY" mind-reading questions...

I wrote:

Completely Agree Gene... I was directing my comments mostly to Tommy who likes to ask WHY questions that appear to me as rhetorical where only speculative answers are possible....

No wonder you can't follow my content... you can't even remember or follow your own......

Make up your mind already Tommy - you DON'T READ my posts, yet you do and apparently with a fine tooth comb hoping to find spelling, syntax and grammatical mistakes instead of attempting to understand the CONTENT..

and then you emphatically tell me you NEVER posted something ABOUT MY POSTS when just scrolling up the page proves you wrong...

Take a breath already, regroup and take a long look at what YOU DO, what YOU POST, instead of playing the forum's post nazi...

and please, Pu-LEASE don't suffer my posts any longer...

All you need to is NOT read them as you say you already don't... and move on...

======

You have been wrong about this at every single turn... WRONG to tell me how to post, WRONG about the CONTENT you post and edit and repost and edit, ad infinitum

and WRONG about what you claim you don't read....

Maybe go try a different thread and bother someone else about how they post... I remember my friend Bernice here used to use CAPS in her posts from time to time... SO WHAT!... her content was/is always interesting and contributory to the topic... your priorities are WHACK "Bro".... time to get a grip.

====================================================================================

Gene and everyone... I've tried to stay on topic and repeatedly asked Tommy here to stay on track and comment on the questions being asked...

That does not appear possible...

I don't know who PM is yet... and I agree Gene, that Shelley at the very least is aware of TSBD activity and backstories not readily apparent to others.

Gene, Do you think SUIT&TIEman is Shelley?

and do you think we should see WESLEY in Altgens or any other view of the doorway?

Thanks

DJ

If you're going to create evidence at Bethesda, you don't need a casket shell game to accomplish it. But you should probably create a head wound that supports a shot from above and behind. And if you're going create evidence at Bethesda, why throw a bullet on some random stretcher in Parkland when you can magically pull one out of the shallow back wound instead.

Well Scott... what was needed or not is - imo - not something those outside the plan would easily or readily understand.....

there is quite a bit of direct testimony that conflcits with the official 8pm arrival time...

Dr. Humes himself tells us he sees the body, in the morgue, AFTER he and Boswell take him out of the casket, between 6:45 and 7pm - that conflicts with ALL the official accounts.

The ambulance from Andrews with the casket only just arrives at 7pm... so when did they take the body out of the PARKLAND casket so that he is not in it when the ambulance arrives?

(btw - ever read O'Connor's recollections? or LIPSEY who claims to have been at a meeting at Andrews where DECOYS were discussed - yet he never explains how or when JFK got from the PARKLAND CASKET to the decoy...)

---

Am I reading you correctly? ...you believe the evidence offered from the autopsy supports a single shot from above and behind?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21028#entry284612 - my post #6 above...

I'm not a doctor, yet I can read and connect the dots.... please post what you believe the evidence for a single shot from the rear is - within the evidence

NOT Humes' conclusion or narrative, but the actual description of the wounds and the processes HUMES went thru to remove the brain...

As I see it, Humes' job was to remove evidence of the frontal kill shot... in the process, the skull was so damaged that ANY resemblence to the wound as it appeared in Dallas was obliterated.

READ their description and plot it yourself on a skull... if you think what I offered was biased or wrong... other PROS who have read the description stated it appeared as if JFK was hit with an axe that extended from the occipitol to the forehead...

This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.

The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter

What this says is that there was a TROUGH, a mini canyon an inch to the right of midline almost 2 inches deep into the TOP his head... while somehow there is damage to the third ventricle and the base of the brain...

all from a bullet identical - supposedly and according to the WCR - that destroys ribs and wrist bones and comes out unscathed, while this bullet virtually disappears...

Simply amazing that at this point in our understanding we need to explain the differences between Bethesda's resulting wounds which were horrifyingly massive runing the entire lenght of the skul, and the wound in Dallas

Within 15 seconds of the injury this SS agent was less than 2 feet from the man... and he corroborates the testimony of EVERYONE in Dallas who sees the wounds...

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Here is what we are given as "evidence" - makes me nauseous that we as a community have to still disagree over the validity of the BETHESDA evidence.... as how it reates in no way to the events in Dallas...

And finally Scott... that you bring up CE399 as if it was EVER in Dallas is again... surprising.

In 1963 there was NEVER going to be a challenge of the evidence... so CE399 did its intended job...

Until finally it was shown to be the forgery it was... according to the evidence CE399 - THAT BULLET - only comes into being when SS CHEIF ROWLEY hands it to Todd to bring to FBI Frazier...

I emptied my Inbox so we could PM our conversation - I tried to respond to your PM but:

The following errors were found
The member Thomas Graves cannot receive any new messages
This personal message has not been sent (but I did save it for when you can accept new PMs)

DJ

Wow... What an amazingly pompous a$$ you are Tommy....

First it's "spelling"

Then "grammar" and "syntax"

Then you dont bother to READ the posts anyway - no wonder you get your content wrong so often...

and in the end it's really about your lack of understanding about H&L...

while Gene and so many others understand that like accepting CONSPIRACY, understanding and accepting H&L within the context of the events before, during and afterward actually HELPS in formulating theories about the true nature of the events...

I will leave you with this Tommy and then we're done - and it's related directly to OSWALD as PRAYERMAN... for if REID sees LEE... where was HARVEY...

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. REID. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.

Oswald was charged with the killing of JFK at 11:30pm friday night

At 7am Saturday morning FBI agents sent by HOOVER get Frank Kudlaty to give them the school records for HARVEY OSWALD from STRIPLING JR HIGH in 1954/55.

Which he not only does, but gives them the ORIGINALS... which are never seen again. At this exact time LEE is living on St Mary's with MO at Murtle Evans' place...

You not unerstanding H&L or doing any of the research does not make it wrong Tommy... just makes you uninformed.

So... Why is obtaining the 8 year old JR High School records of the accused assassin one of the most important and first things done less than 12 hours after the man is charged when there is not record ANYWHERE of Oswald attending STRIPLING.... btw - on 11/22/63, HARVEY's "mom" is living at 2220 Thomas... which has a very interesting past...

(all this comes from the Armstrong Archive at Baylor.. one of the most amazing and thorough researchers with which I have ever had the pleasure to discuss the case)

TO: JIM GARRISON, District Attorney

FROM: ANDREW J. SCIAMBRA, Assistant D. A.

RE: Interview of JOSEPH COOPER - Baton Rouge, La.

Relative to LEE HARVEY OSWALD

….COOPER that she is very suspiciousof FRED KORTH and told him that LEE' s discharge from the

Marine Corps was handled by FRED KORTH.

COOPER said he found out that the house MARGUERITE

was living in at the time of the assassination belonged to

a close friend of FRED KORTH, a MRS. MARY E. MCCARTHY, JR.

COOPER said MARGUERITE also told him that FRED KORTH played

a part in LEE's life but did not explain any further.

1) PPS Re: "Back on Topic," it seems that you're trying to prove that Bill Shelley and Wesley Buell Frazier couldn't possibly have been where they said they were during the assassination because they (apparently) didn't show up in Altgens 6. Is that correct?

2) Yes, David, WE AGREE (lol) that "Prayer Man" was not Danny Arce.

3) I personally think that "Prayer Man" was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Finally - a conversation about the thread.... (I added the #'s to the quote so I could address them one at a time)

1) How do you arrive at THAT conclusion from what I posted ?

Shelley and Frazier say there were both on the steps at the entrance to the TSBD when the limo passes... We have a photo fo that area from a variety of angles DURING the motorcade... just after it passes the doorway...

Just point them out Tommy - or tell me where YOU think they are... or at least paste in my post where it appears I am trying to PROVE they couldn't possibly be where they said they were...

those again are YOUR words - I am trying to use a process of elimination... would you agree that IF they are where they said they were, we'd be able to find them... and are you telling me that everyone for whom we have evidence from the FBI/DPD as to their location at the time of the shooting is accurate?

Altgens claims to have been 15 feet from JFK at the time of the LAST head shot .... Zfilm, Nix AND Muchmore prove that wrong.... while WCD298 from the FBI corroborates that testimony

Where is the last shot according to the FBI's meticulous reconstruction of the scene? About 15 feet from Altgens and 45 feet further down Elm.

2) Arce not being PRAYERMAN... Is this Arce? If so, he is eliminated... if not... we should try and find him to do so...

3) What evidence helps you come to that conclusion? given the massive number of people walking right by him as they go back into the TSBD... I can understand the FBI/DPD removing all mention of OSWALD on the stairs from the record, but not from people's memories... not a single soul has even come forward to say they said they saw OSWALD on the outside landing at any time... while C.Arnold tells of seeing HARVEY insdie the doors just before the limo arrives at 12:25.... HE easily could have stepped onto the landing... yet he remains there well afterward...

If that is correct... then we have also proven an OSWALD look-alike (LEE?) walking past Reid while HARVEY is out front...

Discussion is fine... as long it is really a discussion and not soapbox theater....

Mark, Scott, Robert, et al... the work we are discussing stems directly from the evidence created at Bethesda....

Could you please tell me what you think occurred at Bethesda between 6:35 and 8pm - especially when the ambulance pulls up outside with an empty casket..

Thanks

DJ