David Josephs

I cannot let DVP do this over and over and get away with it...

He cannot prove it was OSWALD's OWN rifle...

He can't prove or corroborate or authenticate ANY of the rifle evidence - yet you make such unbelieveably naive and insulting comments... are you really this lost ?

Plus, do CTers think that the DPD just happened to have at their disposal Oswald's own Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to plant in the building very shortly after the shooting

It is your place to get the rifle into the man's hands on the 6th floor David - go back as far as you like, Italy for all I care - as there is nothing you can do other than manufacture evidence (like your buds the FBI) to support what you keep claiming to be true.

If you could do that you would... instead you ramble on about what SHOULD have been or COULD have been.... instead of actually addressing what WAS.

HIDELL's coupon ordered a C20-T750, a scoped 36" TS rifle ordered by Kleins in Jan 1962, although they never got any TS rifles in January 1962... So the ads for a 36" scoped rifle starting in March 1962, BEFORE THE CANCELLED TS SHIPMENT... which rifles were shipped for those orders David?

Which rifle was shipped for ALL the orders of C20-T750 between March 1962 and Feb 1963 and where did they get their TS rifles? Unless they shipped the replaced FC rifle for the TS... yet they do not get rifle one until FEB 22, 1963.

I'll ask again David... for almost a year KLEINS advertised and sold (and presumably shipped) a C20-T750 described as a scoped 36" "carbine" - WHAT DID THEY SHIP FOR THESE ORDERS DAVID AND WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES? (but no worries I don't expect you to have the chops to address the question beyond the last time you ansered it - "Who cares about other orders" LMAO)

See DVP, you can't even prove what was processed at Kleins let alone get a rifle into Oswald's hands..... you remain a very poor WCR apologist who simply cannot pull it together to AUTHENTICATE any of the so called WCR evidence... so you're left doing the ole soft-shoe every time, hoping we're all mesmerized by the fancy footwork and not aware of the complete crap you offer up as an argument.

(although the gunsmith says only 36" rifles got a scope, and NO ONE talks to the shipping clerks, warehouse men, or ANY of the correct employees)

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."
Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And that is who?
Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was.
Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.
Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?
Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.
Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.
Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct

You wanna guess whether the WC called Westra or Kasper? and maybe you heard of Feldsott and yet ANOTHER c2766?

Go back to bed Dave... your time has come and gone - all that's left is the comic entertainment you provide by defending the actual killers of the man...

FACT? not in a court. but you cannot deny that maps had been discussed, sewers discussed, and Smith/Anti-Cubans/CIA is at the center of it...

If you are so certain, based on "He thinks that captain Will Fritz might have mentioned something about that, but that Mr. Fruge was not sure on this point," then no, we are not on the same page.

If we're going to regard the exalted law enforcement people of the original investigation of Oswald with some caution, we're going to have to regard the exalted law enforcement people of the later investigations with some level of caution, too. Certainly you see the hypocrisy of not doing so. I'll have more on one of those officers in my book.

Okay Roy... I was careful to state that this amounts to circumstantial evidence PILING UP... that this is not just some random factoid thrown out that stand alone...

Smith, the maps, his friends, most items of Chermaine's story to Fruge checking out.... Did Fruge see these maps? IDK.... but he felt it important enough to ask about them...

I have come to the conclusion that those outside the cover-up who stumble upon elements of the conspiracy can be assumed reliable until proven otherwise, whereas those involved like Fritz, Hill, Stringfellow, Day, etc... we get the opposite... Total BS until corroborated and authenticated.... either way both sides of the story requires corroboration.

Will you be telling us now that Smith had nothing to do with JFK, Oswald, Bannister, etc.... or just that this "FACT" is about the same as most other anti-(Harvey)Oswald-did-it info... circumstantial, since hard evidence of the conspiracy is not so easy to come by?

Wonder who spooked Fritz into ignoring Fruge.

Cheramie told him she had worked for Ruby, of "Pinky," as she knew him, at his night club in Dallas and claimed Ruby and Oswald "had been shacking up for years.(74) Fruge said he called Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department with this information.(75) Fritz answered, he wasn't interested.(76) Fritz and the Louisiana State Police dropped the investigation into the matter.(77)

Fruge offhandedly asked Buras if the Committee had found the diagrams of the sewer system in Dealey Plaza that were supposed to have been located in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment in Dallas.

No worries Pat... unlike so many these day... Just cause we disagree - passionately from time to time, does not mean we aren't on the same side trying to see the light of Day (pun intended)

I'm pretty sure this came from Jack White... I had not seen what appears to be the remnants of a sticker (I don't think lifting a print would leave that much of a mark from the tape would it?)

Yet it appears not to be there on the rifle at NARA....

Take care

DJ

(edit: the sling also is vbery suspect Pat.... could not be used to hold the rifle or steady it while shooting... yet is homemade and basically worthless - any ideas? Wasn't it a clue leading to the guy who riveted it together for "Oswald"? the guy at the garage I believe.... Kind of a useless add-on... given the rope we see in the BYP used as a sling....

Well Roy... given the virtual free ride the FBI/SS investigation gave these men in terms of incriminating evidence and their involvement... and person A & B are law enforcement officers related directly to the case...

then again.... FACTS are pretty hard to come by in any area... at least corroborated physical evidence... as opposed to the layered circumstantial the keeps leading to the same people.

FACT? not in a court. but you cannot deny that maps had been discussed, sewers discussed, and Smith/Anti-Cubans/CIA is at the center of it...

Conclude what you'd like... why do you think Fritz even mentions it at all - enough so that Fruge remembers it.?

But the paper trail for BOTH Oswald's rifle and revolver mail-order purchases couldn't be more concrete and definitive.

Sorry David, this statement is about as misleading and dishonest as they come...

A paper trail for the Kleins rifle would include examples of C20-T750 orders shipped FC instead of TS rifles... the claim the FBI and Kleins is making...

instead the microfilm with the orders is gone

The trail would include a payment stamp on the Money Order, not a Kleins stamp alone

The trail would include the signed receipt for picking up the rifle

The trail would include the fact that 40" rifles rec'd scopes and were sold that way, instead of ONLY the 36" models

The trail would explain how a package to HIDELL does not get refused at OSWALD's POBox

The paper trail is full of holes with suggestions of the FBI creating the one and only link between the order and the name... Waldman writing VC836 and C2766 IN PENCIL on the form

Without those handwritten references there is nothing to related C2766 to Oswald or Hidell for that matter...

Were these on the original forms? Don't know DVP... the originals are GONE... convenient, right?

And if we go back farther into the history of C2766, it gets even more dubious... having to be one of only a handful which did not get their ID marks ground off.... - convenient.

David... you make generic, blanket statement that require evidence and you provide none... it IS cause you deem it so, not cause the evidence supports it...

or you wander off into a strawman

Tell me David, you believe Alyea... why did Fritz reach down and pick up the shells from where they were PLANTED only to restage the scene again and again... for the DPD cameras?

Or is only a PART of what he says to your liking so you only say THAT part is correct?

=======

Here is the full image Pat... Is this Studebaker or Day instead? I thought it was from Alyea

Furthermore, wasn't the rifle found on the opposite end of the 6th floor? Appears as if there is light coming in the windows here... and NOT where the rifle was found...

thoughts?

Well Roy... if you believe the testimony of anyone outside the conspiracy...

In Jim Garrison's investigations I gathered "On page 208 of "A Farewell to Justice" it states that then Dallas PD police captain Will Fritz stated that they found a map of the Dallas\Dealy Plaza sewer system in the apartment of CIA operative Sergio Arcacha Smith.

Would need to do more research or ask Jim D. But of the people to believe in this case, Lt Fruge remains at the top of the list. If the maps are there, Rose is involved and her story has elements of truth.

Louisiana State Police Lieutenant Francis Fruge is one of the principal witnesses in most accounts of the Rose Cheramie story.

Roy, isn't the point - the view from that location and its accompanying escape route options - coupled with accounts of a z film in which JFK "rises up out of his seat" at the head shot - make the "crazy sewer theory" plausible... it was one of very few angles where collateral damage was minimal... How many people said that shots sounded like a motorcycle backfire, a ground level noise... if one sewer shooter why not more?

In the end though Roy it is not rock solid, only highly circumstantial, appropriate and in context. I'll have to be satisfied with that...

Enjoy your saturday

DJ

DVP... why argue to one thing no one is stating here... ??

A Mauser being identified does not change the rifle which was carried out by Day or is now CE139... by your own admission these men KNEW it was a 6.5mm Italian rifle the evening of the 22nd...

Yet Weitzman doesn't sign the typed version of his affidavit until the 23rd... Boone is also aware of the ID... yet both men specify the weapon THEY SAW as something else...

The same holds true of the paper bag in the corner and clip... supposedly.

Items NEVER photographed on the 6th fllor yet claimed to have been there by DPD/Sheriff Affidavit and testimony... THAT evidence is okay to accept though cause it implicates Oswald..

The FACT he couldn't have made it, got it home, got the rifle into it, got it back to the TSBD or any other such things MEANS it was either MADE AT THE SCENE, or MADE AHEAD OF TIME...

Either way direct evidence of conspiracy. The CLIP is only seen protruding from a DIFFERENT RIFLE than the one identified...

So stop making an argument about Alyea (and if we believe him David, we believe Fritz' contamination of the crime scene before any accurate images could be taken.

Glad to see you are finally building a case for the correct reasons.

Setting up your posts against unknown "conspiracy theorists" since you dont like to address us directly is cute and all... but shows the weakness and misdirection of your posts and arguments.

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say

Who you talking about David? WHO labels a Mauser the murder weapon as opposed to the weapon identified via affidavit by two men and confirmed by two more... as being at the scene of the supposed "crime". While the actual rifle was found and moved to the 6th floor from somewhere else - according to evidence offered.

Doesn't MATTER what was reported in newspapers David... what matters is whether the evidence available was created and/or corroborated... maybe you can explain why/how they specified a specific make and caliber, if they never saw it... AFTER the rifle had already been identified AT THE SCENE with both of these men standing there.

That is called evidence of a 2nd rifle David... unimpeachable evidence that on the 6th floor at that time a 7.65 Mauser was laying there... that it goes no further... that for hours after the fact the DPD CSS unit rearranged and rephotographed the "crime scene" as if it were in its original condition... while the WCR conclusions neglects to make these FACTS known.

So Dave... try to stick to the subject discussed and not your own tautological strawman....

----

Pat - that is a frame grab from the Alyea film.... as he picks up the rifle there are a couple instances which clearly show there is not CLIP protruding from that rifle, nor is there one stuck inside which would move when the last bullet was ejected via the bolt... the clip disengages when the bullet is loaded, not ejected....

The CLIP was a plant. brought to the TSBD by one of the DPD... unless you or DVP here can post evidence of if being seen or found or photographed or spoken of anywhere in the TSBD.

David... you seem like a smart guy... why cling to such easily proven wrong, or poorly supported arguments which you keep offering with anything and everything but the actual FACTS.

Shims and alignments of scopes in DC has something to do with a rifle that was never fired that day? and it is discussed as if it matters.

As if the PLAN was to take an disassembled rifle with a scope already attached to a part... get to the window without knowing when the motorcade will actually pass or at what speed...

assemble the rifle with a dime? (no less) acquire and reacquire the target via a scope... the first shot odds of hitting ANYWHERE but where the scope was zeroed in upon was huge...

And without knowing if the scope was accurate after this shot on a moving target... or how fast the moving target would be going... he reacquires the target IN THE SCOPE..

and fires again... the target moves again... and he would still have no idea of what ZEROED IN means as a shooter...

THIS was the plan of the lone nut marksman you're defending? While the not found in Dallas, the prints found at the FBI labs is from the left hand on the left side of the trigger guard...

...

How many times do you need to read YOUR star witness say this?

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know?
Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?

Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.

and THEN not only hit two out of three, but two solids hits (maybe shot 1 was aimed at the heart) and one miss by 20 yards.

With this scope and that distance, he missed high and right out of this view... while resting a rifle on a stand of boxes....

or took a shot thru the trees which deflects yet leaves no copper, nicks Tague, who does not have the timing exact... and the shooter STILL has no idea where the shot is going by looking thru the scope for the next shot as the limo emerges from a tree at some unknown speed - assumably, with the SS driving and a shot fired, they would be going like a bat out of hell to clear the scene..

but instead they slow down to a crawl - possibly stop (I was not there, many say it did) and the shooter looks thru the scope again...

the scope that wasn't on the rifle taking the shots according to the man who DEFINITELY can ID LHO as the shooter, but just didn't..

What Dunkel and the video fails to show:

In 1963 there was no Blacktop, let alone inches of it blocking the view....

But LD isn't going to mention that.... or which anti-Castro Cuban was found with maps of the sewer system

and they PAY him for this....

Little dogs that bark behind chain link fences always act more ferocious than they can be when the gate is left open...

What else is there to expect from a one trick pony - fair and intellectual analysis of the info?

Standard Dunkel MO = "History says...... and until you change history.... blah, blah, blah"

Simple question then Robert...

Given the opportunity to write up whatever they saw, Boone and Weitzman are specific about the Make and caliber of said rifle.... Enough so to sign their names to affidavits... why declare a MAKE and CALIBER when they are present when DAY holds up a M91/38FC, MADE IN ITALY 6.5mm carbine?

If we are going to believe that in 1963 these instruments of evidence were taken MORE seriously than today, in general...

Why is it so easy to dismiss?

Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building

I have NEVER claimed the rifle in Day's hands was a Mauser... I don't think anyone is saying that Robert... what is being said is that RIFLES were in the TSBD that day.

and how THAT rifle gets to THAT spot is anyone's guess.... bringing it up from the 3rd floor is such a stretch?

We have all sorts of people wandering in the TSBD between 12:30 and 1:30... Agree?

We have Sawyer dropping men off on the 4th floor

Baker and Truly

Men coming down the stairs in plainclothes

Men going from the 6th to the 5th floors from the 1st and 2nd... etc....

Do you honestly believe that removing a 7.65 MAUSER from the TSBD between 1:00 and whenever you like was not easily done by either DPD personnel, Sheriffs, ATM, self identified SS agents, etc....

Somehow Monty comes out with a bag we KNOW Oswald did not make... yet THERE it is....

We have a clip somehow JAMMED back into a rifle which obviously does NOT have that clip when Day holds it up, yet does when he is walking on Elm... how did it get there?

Robert - I greatly appreciate you being a voice of reason with regards to rifles, ammunition and their workings..... I disagree with you that the BYP and NARA rifles are the same based on the simple fact that to an item, the physical evidence is designed to implicate Oswald and nothing else... they do not create a web of self reinforcing evidence which SHOULD be the case if Oswald actually did any of this.... the rifle evidence does not even corroborate itself let alone stand on its own.

The FBI created, destroyed and altered enough examples of evidence to render virtually ANYTHING THE FBI TOUCHED useless as evidence related to Dallas that day.

Yet we continue to validate this terible evidence by even acknowledging there is a discussion to be had.

I will post this again and again and again until it sinks in...

DVP - everything you and the other LNers base thier arguments upon is a lie - and it takes WC staff lawyers to inform you about it...

REDLICH is pretty clear here....

Why would he write such a thing to RANKIN no less, in April 1964 ??

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

<snip>

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

On a serious note...

I think those who are informed about the assassination have simply gotten tired of trying to "discuss" the case WCR/HSCA apologists who invade threads with nonsense about rifles and photos and the medical evidence as if it was REAL, AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE of what happened.

Their argument remains: "The wrong puzzle pieces put together upside down gives us a perfectly accurate picture of the assassination" and yet, when asked to turn over a piece and authenticate it...

they get beligerent...

When WE turn over a piece and show how it doesn't even belong in the box - how it has nothing at all to do with an accurate picture of the assassination... we get called kooks and the trolling continues.

DVP's point about a Mauser on the 6th floor...for example...

Tell me though, seriously, YOU don't believe that a Mauser was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository on Nov. 22 -- do you, Vince?

There are TWO AFFIDAVITS IN ANY FACT which state clearly that the rifle THEY FOUND was a 7.65 Mauser.

TWO AFFIDAVITS from a Deputy Sheriff and a DPD Officer... corroborated by a Detective and the Captain of Homicide....

Any of "YOU" believing it has nothing to do with the evidence and what it says. DVP would have you dismiss these identifications, on a legally binding document, as a "belief" issue as opposed to an evidence issue.

Boone and Weitzman were not duty bound to describe the caliber and make of the rifle they found... that rifle was found on the 6th floor is more than enough...

but they did not stop at "a rifle"... they were very specific, one man selling rifles as a sideline and the other a sheriff with eyes and some level of intelligence.

And they did not wait days, weeks or months... these AFFIDAVITS were written the same day and the next... and signed.

Officially the rifle is found at 1:22... Yet Truly is on the 6th floor in the location where the rifle was found between 1:00 and 1:20.. Truly is on the 6th floor when the rifle is found... Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

So once again we are expected to address a WCR apologist over the AFFIDAVITS signed by the two men who found a rifle and identified it specifically as a 7.65 Mauser when as plain as day, the rifle says "Made in Italy" and "6.5"

and then we are told it matches the BYP rifle....

So as a lowly Conspiracy Realist I ... and compare the NARA rifle with the BYP rifle..look for who said what around the time the rifle was found... is there MORE EVIDENCE that the rifle at NARA is NOT the 7.65mm rifle these men are describing?

Yet we need to have this conversation, this "debate" repeatedly since the DVPs of the world want so badly to believe it was Oswald alone, and any evidence pointing in a different direction is purley imagined.

So what's our choice? Let the DVPs spread disinformation about the case as FACT... and try to move on to more productinve activities... or be vigilant enough to counter the DVPs with the same old evidence that has proven Conspiracy from day one... the WCR and HSCA itself... while trying to believe there is not some organized effort to keep the "dabate over conspiracy" alive.

So WHAT to do?

DJ

(ATF AGENT) Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor,

but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives...

I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor."

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html

After Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig viewed the sniper's nest, where he saw three spent 6.5 millimeter cartridges, he began to search for a weapon with Boone. "We started toward the northeast corner of the building. There was a stack of boxes at the head of the stairwell and Boone looked into it and said, 'Here it is. Here's the rifle.' We didn't touch it until Captain Fritz and Lt. Day of the Dallas police got there. They took some pictures of the rifle and Day pulled out the rifle and handed it to Captain Fritz, who held it up by the strap and asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman had joined us and Weitzman was a gun buff, and he was very good with weapons. He said, 'It looks like a Mauser.' He walked over to Fritz, and Captain Fritz was holding the rifle up in the air, and I was standing next to Weitzman, who was standing next to Fritz, and we weren't more than 6-8 inches from the rifle, and stamped right on the barrel of the rifle was '7.65 Mauser,' and that's when Weitzman said, 'It is a Mauser,' and pointed to the '7.65 Mauser' on the barrel." [21]

Boone later testified that Captain Fritz also thought that the gun was a Mauser. [22] Boone testified in two written reports that the gun was a Mauser. Weitzman signed an affidavit the next day stating that the rifle he and Boone had found was a "7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it." [23] Fritz would eventually testify to the Warren Commission that the gun found on the sixth floor was Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano. Weitzman also recanted his belief that the gun was a Mauser, though he was never shown the Mannlicher-Carcano by the Warren Commission to confirm the fact that it was the rifle that he had seen on the sixth floor. An FBI envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122) dated 12/2/1963 that was released in 1995 by the AssassinationsRecord Review Board ARRB had a cover that detailed the contents of the envelope as being a 7.65 mm rifle shell. The shell was allegedly found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, though nothing was known about this envelope or rifle shell until the release of the 1995 records. The whereabouts of the 7.65 mm rifle shell is unknown. Researcher Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko first reported the envelope. The envelope had the following label: "7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/1963 ... determined of no value and destroyed."

Arthur Pineda's analysis of photos showing the rifle in Lt. Day's possession seems to heighten the controversy concerning the ammunition clip and the identification of the rifle. Dallas Police Department pictures show Lt. Day dusting a rifle for prints while in the Texas School Book Depository. The photograph shows that the rifle has no ammunition clip. However, another picture of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository shows a rifle with an ammunition clip "clearly visible protruding from the bottom of the magazine of the rifle." This photo also shows a rifle with sling swivels mounted on the left side of the weapon, "while CE 746 B (a Warren Commission enlargement of CE 133A, which is a photo of Oswald with rifle) clearly shows that Oswald's rifle had the sling swivels on the bottom. The rifle that Lt. Day is carrying simply is not Oswald's rifle." [24]

On the afternoon of the shooting, KBOX, a Dallas television station, broadcast that "a rifle has been found in a staircase on the fifth floor ... Sheriff's deputies identify the weapon as a 7.65 Mauser ... " [25] To add to the confusion WBAP-TV reported that a British Enfield 303 had been found in the Depository. [26]

Dallas police officer Lt. Day took the rifle to police headquarters on Friday afternoon and dictated a detailed report of the weapon's description to his secretary, but the report was never included in the Commission's exhibits. [27] Later that night at a televised press conference, Dallas District Attorney Wade declared that the rifle found in the Depository was a 7.65 German Mauser. [28] Lt. Day released the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to the FBI at 11:45 p.m., November 22, 1963.

The CIA produced a document on the 25th of November 1963 that created more confusion by declaring " ... employed in this criminal attack is a Model 91 rifle, 7.35 caliber, 1938 modification ... the description of a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error. It was a Mauser." [29] Oswald told his inquisitors that he had seen a Mauser in the Texas School Book Depository. On November 20th, Warren Carter, an employee of Southwestern Publishing Company that occupied part of the second floor in the Depository, brought a Mauser rifle and a .22 calibre rifle for his fellow employees to look at, a fact that was verified by numerous Depository employees. [30]

Curiously, Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano clearly has "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5" stamped on the side of the barrel. Though Oswald's rifle was clearly marked, Boone, Weitzman, Craig, and Fritz at one time stated they thought the gun was a Mauser, and Lt. Day's report is not available. Weitzman's description includes the exact calibration of the scope and the color of the sling. Though it is very clear that what the officers thought they had found was a Mauser, the Warren Commission explained away this problem by stating"Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range... thought it was a Mauser ... [and eventually] police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle." [31]

But what the officers found may very well have been a Mauser considering what Frank Ellsworth saw in the Depository that day. Ellsworth was an agent of the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency and was in his office not far from the Depository when he was told of the shooting. He ran to the Depository and entered the building with Captain Will Fritz. Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." [32] Ellsworth participated in a second search of the Depository after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963. The gun that was found was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano hidden behind boxes near the "stairwell back in the northwest corner ... I have the recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs he probably pitched it over behind these books." [33] Ellsworth has stood by his original assessment of where the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in a 1993 interview with authors Ray and Mary LaFontaine.

The HSCA investigated the misidentification of the rifle and concluded that "many bolt-action rifles are so similar in profile that misidentification may occur." [34]

Jim Garrison investigators interviewed David Kroman, a prisoner of Leavenworth Penitentiaryand an acquaintance of Richard Case Nagell, the ex-C.I.A. agent who has been linked to the assassination through researcher Dick Russell. According to the Garrison investigators, Nagell told Kroman that a right-wing extremist group financed by H.L. Hunt and some Bastista sympathizers had plotted to assassinate Kennedy in Miami in December 1962. As Nagell had told author Dick Russell, the intent of the assassination would be to rationalize an attack on Cuba. Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building. [35]

And Mr Truly - who is on the 6th floor between 1pm and the finding of the rifle... yet never SEES the rifle being found...

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----
Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in, the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. (DJ: Fritz returns to the TSBD and is out front at 12:58)
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

If you are referring to XXXXXX and XXXXXX posted by XXXXXX and XXXXXX

It think if we were to XXXXXXXXX the XXXX and then XXXXX with the source, we could probably XXXXXXXX from now on

David

There did not have to be an exiting fragment to make the large wound in the rear of JFK's head.

When you inflate a balloon to the point it ruptures, is there a fragment that makes the hole or is it just air pressure?

Makes sense Robert... yes... yet wouldn't the escaping pressure move toward the opening in the skull, the bullet hole... before the pressure breaks open another area of the head that does not have any openings? Or do the fracture lines allow for any area of the "balloon" to burst open...

My real point is we do not have ANY fragment trail toward the lower rear due to the work Humes did removing brain and other tissue, not cause there should have been one there, necessarily.

In the thread with PAT... the argument is that the autopsy results suggest multiple shots hitting JFK... when we ask PAT to differentiate the evidence of shots with the evidence of what HUMES did and the resulting autopsy descriptions... he cannot.

The evidence we have only shows the massive extension and disruption of the skull wounds which were performed between 6:30 and 8pm...

I ask again, can anyone imagine the Parkland ER trying to save a man's life with the Bethesda xrays offered as his "condition" at the time he was shot....

A single bullet tho the head from front to back becomes 3 separate lines of damage which obliterate the skull so much so the scalp and skull fall apart when moved

and the man's brain basically falls out... the spinal cord and other AUTOPSY PROCEDURES having already been done to the cranial vault prior to 8pm.

But we agree that a FMJ bullet does not disintegrate at those speeds nor does it leave clouds of micro particles.... so whatever hit him was NOT a 6.5mm FMJ bullet from the rear.

Now... if he was saying HE killed JFK... then we'd have something

Hey Vince...

Send a note to Blaine or Hill with Katz's flyer attached...

"Hey, this guy is stealing your thunder... he worked with you?"

and as Ruby said... sit back and watch the fireworks

A couple of Fensterwald pdf's about a French Connection - he mentions Dinkin early on...

FYI

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEgQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xiconhoca.org%2FPDF%2FDDeRoux%2FApossiblefrenchconnection.pdf&ei=qSngUrHYOo70oAS9lIIo&usg=AFQjCNGlUAdfqtkVQMv8eC_sT9fn1RIeEA

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjfk.hood.edu%2FCollection%2FWeisberg%2520Subject%2520Index%2520Files%2FS%2520Disk%2FSouetre%2520Jean%2520with%2520aka's%2FItem%252011.pdf&ei=qSngUrHYOo70oAS9lIIo&usg=AFQjCNHmrpkCbs9jfTLzdRUAK45zureGkQ

Did that John... and neither Spartacus or the Ed Forum are on the first 15 pages... Mary Ferrell is on page 13.... !!

You may want to talk to Google+ about this John... if you were expecting to show up in the search....

The 6th Floor Museum is on page 2.

FYI

DJ

simple-Glaser Safety Slug-invented by Jack Cannon with a really interesting background. Add Mitch Werbell's suppressors and it explains a lot. Knew them both and they were hard folks.

Glaser Safety Slug, Inc. developed the first frangible bullet in 1974 to provide reduced ricochet and over-penetration danger with improved stopping power over conventional bullets...

Now we have bullets traveling back in time as well.... ??

I realize that hand-made bullets and suppressors could have been used... and probably were.... if larger pieces are used in the filling of these bullets I imagine the damage would be as devastating and could account for the large "fragment" blowing the back of the head out while leaving smaller and smaller particles elsewhere in the skull/brain...

Thanks Evan

DJ

Although not tense enough to find a single threat in Dallas at the time...

C'mon Vince... if he's real you'd know it - or we're talking real DEEP stuff... or he is full of it... and making a buck from history..

The following is the description of the head wounds WITHIN the skull and brain as told by HUMES

Below that are anatomical illustrations of these locations with lines dissecting the location of the wounds... (numbered the same as Humes' testimony)

A Trail of particles exists ABOVE the uppermost wound line while there is an absence of evidence and brain matter which would have led from the front right temple to the back right rear blow-out..

NOT the 5+inch hole in Bethesda, but the 2-3 inch hole as seen by everyone in Dallas...

Without a brain there... and poorly taken x-rays.. the path which created the right rear blow-out is gone, which was Humes' primary mission... obliterate evidence of a shot from the right out the back of the head...

If anyone can address WHICH ENTRY ON THE BACK OF THE HEAD lines up with the particles as seen in these xrays - it could explain alot...

I am claiming that the bullet hitting JFK in the front was NOT a FMJ bullet and the largest fragment of which created the hole ar the right rear, while the rest of the particles rise to the back left of JFK's head..

Bottom line question - how can what was described in Bethesda be related to multiple bullet wounds if HUMES destroyes the evidence prior to x-rays and photos which are seen by the public?

DJ

HUMES:

(1)There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.

The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex.

(DJ: Now Pat - Humes here is saying that this laceration - which runs the entire length of JFK's Brain - extends 5-6cms into the brain...yet he follows with the BASE of the same laceration, as measured from a point HIGHER than the brain, the VERTEX of the skull, and yet the depth is LESS than is seen within the brain itself.... what do you think "it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm" means?)

The area in which the (2) greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe,

In addition, there was (3) a laceration of the corpus callosum Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain

When the brain was turned over and (4) viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.This laceration partially communicates with an oblique (4) 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.

So Pat... when do you actually refute the evidence posted?

Removal of a brain at Autopsy - easy enough to follow...

That the scalp was peeled back, that skull fell to the table, and that the brain was then pulled out is the official story. That there was damage to the underside of the brain is the official story. This story has been spun in different ways over the years by both LNers and CTs, but what I look at is is this: IF the medical evidence had been an organized cover-up, wouldn't the official story and official evidence align with the single-assassin conclusion? Then why doesn't it?

Please follow Pat… the conspiracy was to CREATE documents for history along with xrays and photos that ON THE SURFACE suggests a single shot from behind after the evidence of what actually happened is obliterated, hidden as best as possible… It was not one, two or ten bullets but the saw and scalpel of HUMES which caused the damage recorded in the documents… but you have to understand autopsy procedures and physiology and not trust that what the WCR says is authentic.

Said this before Pat… all the evidence shows is a cover-up and conspiracy… the conclusion WAS a single-assassin while the evidence proves otherwise… it TRIES to align with the single assassin theory… but does not….

That appears a very naïve question Pat, given all the work you’ve done

The lines thru the skull/brain... they in the wrong place?

I would agree that they are in the wrong place for a bullet entering at the back of the head and exploding from the top. I don't think either of us can say they are in the wrong place for a tangential wound. If you've found some research along these lines, please send me a link.

Then please look again… you have lacerations the entire length of the TOP, MIDDLE and BOTTOM of the brain/skull… the brain stem is not a “left or right” thing… yet it was entirely severed… there is a FURROW cut deep into the right side of the skull... not a bullet path.. a FURROW..

A brain does not magically become detached from the skull and skull from scalp Pat… nothing just PEELS AWAY… you really need to review the 90 slide autopsy link I offered and learn a bit about the process…

You CAN differentiate these wounds from wounds NOT caused by a bullet? right?

Once again, it seems you accept that some sort of pre-autopsy occurred, and filter everything through that prism. IMO, the pre-autopsy is nonsense, pure and simple.

Yet you don’t offer anything to refute ANY of the evidence related to it… why is that?

How are x-rays of JFK taken when the casket is in the ambulance out front?
How do the SS/FBI wheel in a casket at 7:17,when JFK’s x-rays are being processed?
Is every one from the morgue as recorded in the ARRB as wrong as all the people you believe are wrong in Dallas?

You have the head shots all coming from the rear... can you make that work on the illustrations I provided based on the autopsy and Humes' notes or do you find this all to be self-evident and not needing an explanation....?

Make what work? I suppose you think you've aligned all the wounds with a shot from the knoll. Oh, please. You don't even have an exit wound on the back of the head.

Then look yet again Pat… I offered detailed images, carefully labeled by the source and me…

I even posted that the front right shot created the hole in the right rear via a fragment which left particles where we see them today at the top of the skull, while any trail from right front to right rear was REMOVED BY HUMES… the brain is not even the original Pat… there are no sections taken… all the evidence that would prove that shot was obliterated…

That you can look at all those images and still post that simply shows me you are not bothering to address the images or the post honestly and sincerely… The lines thru the image I offered were constructed from the descriptions offered by HUMES and the autopsy report…

I am asking you to use the same reports and YOUR CONCLUSIONS and draw the same lines and relate them to the medical evidence. Still amazed me that you do not understand the xrays not only contradict each other, but the photos as well… THEY CANNOT EXIST TOGETHER… they are mutually exclusive…

Get it?

Why do you ignore an hour-and-a-half worth of activity... documented activity... ?

Perhaps I need to read Horne again, but all I saw was embarrassing cherry-picking. As stated, he has Robinson see an orange-sized hole on the back of the head before the autopsy, and Robinson's co-worker, who'd traveled with Robinson and sat with Robinson, see an orange-sized hole on the back of the head at the end of the autopsy. He also has Saundra Spencer see and develop photographs that nobody took. Except perhaps Robert Knudsen, who no one remembered being at the autopsy and who Horne never interviewed. So why does he believe Knudsen was there? Because Joe O'Donnell, a demented person known to make crazy claims about the Kennedy family--including that he'd taken the famous photo of John-John saluting his dad, and that he'd edited the Zapruder film for Jackie Kennedy--told him so. And he does this without verifying even one bit of O'Donnell's story.

A tactic Pat? You bring in everyone YOU think is mistaken.. Offer conclusions based on what? You read Knudson’s testimony… you know he left his family for a couple days at this time… You question Spencer which nonsensical statements without proof, backing or even a simple link to the pages in your massive work that explains WHY you state these things….

Are you so afraid of backing up your conclusions with evidence that you just don’t?. One has to be wary of an explanation that requires 50 pages to explain, within each of your chapters, yet the author does not seem to like to link to this work in support of these conclusions.

Just plain bad form Pat… the number of “citizens” you distrust versus the number of USG military & related personnel you believe hook-line-and-sinker is astounding…

CAn you address these? -

whose xrays are being developed as Jackie and Bobby are entering Bethesda?

Probably nobody's. Do you really think people's memories 15 years on from an event can be trusted?

Grasping at straws now – DVP would be proud of you.

and if JFK, how did he get to the morgue ahead of the ambulance carrying the casket?

He didn't. This is all nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Feel free to believe what you like, but I don't believe "they" would go to all the trouble you think they went to and create a body of evidence that still points to more than one shooter.

This response remains piss-poor as always Pat. Incredulity on your part, without a rebuttal worthy of a grammar school child is but a wall to hide behind. You cannot refute away the evidence that makes all your work moot… so you dismiss it as folly…

What a surprise. This is not about BELIEF Pat… but evidence. Evidence you cannot refute or accept while you continue to stump about the sky being red. Accepting the evidence as proof of activity in DP requires you connect those dots… and you don’t Pat… you barely even have dots to connect…

Now, it seems apparent that you think the body of evidence suggests a single-shooter using Oswald's rifle firing from behind. I would be glad to show you why you're wrong on another thread...if you're willing to admit as much.

Please do not misquote and misstate my conclusions as your own. The BODY OF EVIDENCE suggests a complete obliteration of the evidence which would tell a true and accurate story of Dealey Plaza. The follow-up physical evidence was CREATED to confuse… it cannot be used for anything but illustration of the cover-up… and you’ve bought into it completely.

Pat – you have an audience HERE.. we are talking about YOUR conclusions of the head wounds and Bethesda results HERE…

Show us where I am wrong about HUMES’ work on the head…. that the detailed medical jargon describes a bullet wound... and illustrate as I have...
What were the FBI and SS doing at 7:17 with the casket? and the steel one at 6:35?
Why are the wounds so terribly different between Parkland and the autopsy evidence?
Why do you not address the two Brain issue?
Why do you cherry-pick the ARRB so badly?

Just post links to your work - surely you know your own work to be able to post links to its most pertinent arguments…. so that the rest of us do not have to hunt around... why have the body of work if not to refer to it?

So Pat... when do you actually refute the evidence posted?

Removal of a brain at Autopsy - easy enough to follow...

The lines thru the skull/brain... they in the wrong place?

You CAN differentiate these wounds from wounds NOT caused by a bullet? right?

You have the head shots all coming from the rear... can you make that work on the illustrations I provided based on the autopsy and Humes' notes or do you find this all to be self-evident and not needing an explanation....?

Why do you ignore an hour-and-a-half worth of activity... documented activity... ?

CAn you address these? -

whose xrays are being developed as Jackie and Bobby are entering Bethesda?

and if JFK, how did he get to the morgue ahead of the ambulance carrying the casket?

"The Secret Service was not involved. ( anyway)"

If someone really believes that there was a conspiracy but are in denial ( or are too politically correct ) to firmly say they facilitated the killing then you will be here another 50 years!

Wasn't that the conclusion to the HSCA?

C. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.

1. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

2. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.

4. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.

5. The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

Notice how 1, 2 & 5 do not add: "but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved"

THIS the HSCA did know...

We are still at the point where we must discuss with members whether there was a conspiracy or not

and we have to address WCR apologists who attempt to defend and rationalize the actions and evidence offered of the military, SS, CIA, and FBI

as opposed to taking that next step and putting the assasination into the context it belongs - that this was NOT some isolated event in a timeline that ENDS with his death...

the assassination is just one event in a string that goes back to the mid 1800's... if not farther.

Jim et al are busy writing and informing those that search the truth about this conspiracy as opposed to arguing about it here.

When page after page is needed to address members claiming the evidence from Bethesda is not only authentic but entirely indicative of what occurred in DALLAS

one has to scratch one's head and wonder WTF is going on in our community.

When there are those that can still talk about shots from the 6th floor and not have the time or desire to understand what the FBI did with CE884 and WCD298

Vince - it would like you having to convince people of the "back of the limo" BS put forth by the SS over and over and over again... and then a concluding post stating, "well the SS wasn't involved anyway"

At some point these undeniable facts need to be understood as such... we need to stop arguing over whether the world is flat or not...

and continue our efforts to uncover who and why THEY keep telling us the world is flat with all sincerity and seriousness..

my .02

Yup... and he seems to have moved the 6th floor window to 60 feet above z166 on ELM...

yet the reality is that NONE OF THESE NUMBERS WORKS in matching what was seen on the Zfilm, Nix or Muchmore films...

CE884 is not even the original batch of info WEST provided in his notes (thanks to T. Purvis)

Once againwe have CRAP evidence that cannot be reconciled with the witnesses... yet the WCR tries to tell us the witnesses are wrong while the FBI is correct...