David Josephs

Someone please explain how the automatic 38 shells found at the Tippett scene were fired by Oswald's revolver? More magic bullets,eh?

They weren't... unless the pistol taken from Oswald was an automatic.... :-)

Oswald was already at the Theater when Tippit was killed...

Hill of course mutters the famous words

and let's not forget the other statement made at that same time:

Years later Hill tries to explain that because the shells where bunched together, as auto weapons eject the shell in the area of the shot, he concluded they were autos... yet the "shells at the scene" were already in a cigarette wrapper while the other shell(s) are found by the Davis'....

Just another example of BAIT & SWITCH

DJ

Wonder if they also took a picture of THIS guy....

DJ

too embarrassed to put the arrest time in the document?

Here are MOST of the DPD Oswald arrest reports... wanna GUESS how many state he was in the balcony... yet the man arrested in on the main floor?

Box 2

Folder 7

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. R. Baggett. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000632 1 page 02 07 001 0632-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by P. L. Bentley. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000636 2 pages 02 07 004 0636-001.gif 0636-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000644 2 pages 02 07 008 0644-001.gif 0644-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Bob K. Carroll. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/04/63. 00000649 2 pages 02 07 012 0649-001.gif 0649-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. L. Cunningham. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000654 2 pages 02 07 015 0654-001.gif 0654-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Ray Hawkins. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000659 2 pages 02 07 018 0659-001.gif 0659-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Gerald L. Hill. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/05/63. 00000665 2 pages 02 07 022 0655-001.gif 0655-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by T. A. Hutson. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000669 2 pages 02 07 025 0669-001.gif 0669-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by K. E. Lyon. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/04/63. 00000675 1 page 02 07 028 0675-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by M. M. McDonald. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000680 2 pages 02 07 032 0680-001.gif 0680-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. E. Taylor. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000683 2 pages 02 07 035 0683-001.gif 0683-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by H. H. Stringer. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000687 2 pages 02 07 039 0687-001.gif 0687-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by J. B. Toney. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000693 2 pages 02 07 043 0693-001.gif 0693-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Charles T. Walker. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000700 2 pages 02 07 047 0700-001.gif 0700-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by W. R. Westbrook. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000705 2 pages 02 07 050 0705-001.gif 0705-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Gerald L. Hill. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/05/63. 00000727 2 pages 02 07 054 0727-001.gif 0727-002.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. E. Taylor. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000729 1 page 02 07 055 0729-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000730 1 page 02 07 056 0730-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Ray Hawkins. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/02/63. 00000732 1 page 02 07 057 0732-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by W. R. Westbrook. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed and Annotated), 12/03/63. 00000734 1 page 02 07 058 0734-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Bob K. Carroll. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/04/63. 00000736 1 page 02 07 059 0736-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by H. H. Stringer. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000738 1 page 02 07 060 0738-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by K. E. Lyon. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000740 1 page 02 07 061 0740-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by J. B. Toney. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000743 1 page 02 07 062 0743-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by M. M. McDonald. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald (Carbon copy, first page only.) This report differs from previous reports. It is single spaced whereas previous versions are double spaced, (Carbon Copy), 12/03/63. 00000746 1 page 02 07 063 0746-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. R. Baggett. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 1 page 02 07 064, 12/02/63. 00000748 0748-001.gif

Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. L. Cunningham. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000749 1 page 02 07 065 0749-001.gif

But LHO tried to shoot the police inside the theatre... that is not normal behaviour.

According to those that were there - that seems very unlikely.... He may have reached for it... and he may not have... depends on if you believe the DPD...

From what I've seen, the DPD is not exactly the most reliable source of the TRUTH....

Mr. BALL - What were their names?
Mr. McDONALD - Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker.

As one reads these testimonies one is struck by how he is simultaneously hitting McDonald, has his left wrist in handcuffs, is grabbing Walker's shirt, wrestling with 6 cops and STILL the gun stays firmly in his waistband and STILL he can free a hand to pull this gun out...

Below these testimonies is SOME of the COE for that revolver... Hill gets the Carroll part correct yet he says he gave the weapon to Baker... except Baker makes no mention of this event ocurring http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1458-005.gif is part of his narrative takin gus from 2:30 to 4:30pm with no mention of receiving the revolver or shells... while there is a CSS form with DAVENPORT, BARNES AND DHORITY involved...

Where did the revolver Hill gave to Baker go ??

Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat. At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt?
Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective. Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by ripping it with his hand. and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see severall hands on the gun. The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45 degree angle. I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammeriock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call. Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.

Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in.
At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it.
Mr. BELIN. Okay.
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.
Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand?
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand.

Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.
Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?
Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was.
I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.
Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so---I don't think I could say for sure.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and Officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene.

Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. The pistol?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Where is Oswald?

What are we looking at here?? That's not McDonald

Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist?
Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist.
Mr. BALL. Which one?
Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist.

If his left hand is empty and his right hand is a fist to hit McDonald - how is he holding a gun ??

Wonder if they also took a picture of THIS guy....

DJ

Yes indeed, TWO seperate incidences combined into one incriminating bit of evidence...

(on a side note, you see how Baker mentions his affidavit three times in testimony with Dulles/Baker sidestepping it each time....)

From this one statement / FBI report we establish

1) that Baker's affidavit is perjury or this report is... and was easily backdated (this is once again an uncorroborated, unsigned statement that could have been written up most any time)

2) that TRULY believes, while standing out in front of the TSBD, that the shots came from the RR yard (as did O. Campbell the man standing next to him)

3) that in the 2-3 minutes after the shooting the people who left the 4th floor via the stairs (Adams) testify to NO ONE coming down or up at that time... and that a woman with Adams sees Baker/Truly going past them and up the back stairs...

Baker and Truly saw someone else... and like so many give conflicting statements that lead to perjury of one, the other or both.

Also... if TRULY saw Oswald immediately after the shooting... and knows where he saw him last... why does he claim that OSWALD is the only employee that is not accounted for? We both know he could not have been aware of every TSBD employee's whereabouts at that moment (Givens had left as well just to name one), yet OSWALD was on TRULY's mind for some reason...

His exchange about telling Fritz thru Lumpkin is CLASSIC and helps support the idea that the rifle was BROUGHT to the 6th floor and not found there....

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----
Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. (AMAZING right? They are all standing around where the rifle is found picked up shell ejected etc... but it's not there)
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. (to be fair, Fritz did not get back to TSBD until 12:58... rifle was found 1:22...)
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?
Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.
Mr. BALL. Immediately?
Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.
Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Not over that?
Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."
Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.
Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.

And that's the end of THAT... "If you saw OSWALD in the Lunchroom just a short while before, why did you tell DPD that he was the only one not there Mr Truly ??... you knew exactly where he was, or at least THOUGHT he was"

but then it would have had to be a REAL investigation.... not so much

DJ

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

David,

Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22.

It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier.

And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day.

Sean - can you please cite the source for that... WHO did he tell this too and HOW was it recorded...

Between 3:15 and 4:15 is when Fritz's page 1 of 5 notes that Oswald:

"claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in"

Whether that note was taken at that time or remembered later would dovetail to WHEN Truly makes his statement....

personnally I don't think this and the Baker/Truly story are connected... until THEY connect it.

Either this "off" was Baker and Oswald fails to mention anything more about it... or it was NOT BAKER, and Oswald did say it yet we are talking about a different timeline and instance

Baker and Truly IMO, did not encounter Oswald at all.

thanks for the help

DJ

Tommy:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"

"I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me"

To me, each landing is part of the stairs.... if you look at the 2nd floor diagram (CE497) we see there is only one way (other than the stairs) onto that landing and that's thru the vestibule door (I have yet to find a diagram of the 3rd or 4th floors - wonder why?)

With this man's BACK TO HIM it is hard to imagine him coming down the stairs at that moment as the person would be FACE TO FACE with Baker after having passed Truly...

So his affidavit yet again suggests that not only was it not Oswald, but that this person had been coming UP the stairs and was walking AWAY from the stairs when Baker sees "him"... for him to turn around.

Which in turn would mean this person had just gone up the stairs seconds before Truly and Baker... which is why TRULY does not encounter him first.

Now add this to that and yet another possibility arises... OSWALD WAS IN THE LUNCHROOM... yet Baker and Truly never stopped on the 2nd floor and only encountered a person walking from the stairs on the 3rd or 4th floor landing.

1) Sawyer goes to the 4th floor in the elevator after letting "this man" leave the elevator without being stopped or questioned... and then leaves the men he went up with - there on the 4th floor.

2) Maybe it's just me, yet this exchange with Mrs Reid SCREAMS to me that Oswald was still in that room when she leaves.... you can almost hear the fear in her voice...

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Sean,

Well, I believe Truly was more involved in this plot than you seem to believe. I don't think it was a coincidence that Truly hired Oswald, and I don't think the floor laying project was a coincidence. Both events were preparations for the upcoming BIG event, and Truly probably knew that. Truly was the crucial figure in the framing of Oswald, so his participation was probably well planned in advance. And Truly truly did his job as they had expected.

Bjørn Gjerde

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

(sigh)

MOST Human beings will chuckle as they walk away from the 7-11 register with the extra $10 the clerk accidentily handed them...

or how they got away with this or that, or got something over on someone or another...

but it takes a special education to walk away with $100 MILLION while destroying the lives of others in the process... and it takes friends.

the TRUTH is that regardless of which human "leaders" are given unlimited power, money and resources...

MOST of them will find a way to influence their environment to squeeze more PROFIT and POWER, regardless the cost...

Humans are a devious, good-intentioned yet woefully morally corrupt species who have been conditioned to KNOW AS TRUTH that profit is king... or you're a communist.

What I believe we will never know are the DETAILS of the conspiracy... the TRUTH is as plain as the nose on our faces... at least how I see it.

Cheers

DJ

"....those sons of bitches
this graveyard above the ground
one tombstone for the mess,
I say:
humanity, you never had it
from the beginning"

- Bukowski

Have to disagree with you on that last sentence Peter... otherwise Spot on.

What I have found, in my research at least, is that the "best interests" we are talking about were not necessarily UNITED STATES best interests but in the best interest to the Bankers/Lawyers representing and bank-rolling multi-national big business interests...

What I have found Peter is the direct line between LONDON and BOSTON/NY "interests" who, for example, bought BELL HELIPCOPTER via TEXTRON, First National of Boston, Sun Life of Canada, and Prudential Life after they decimated the US TEXTILE market of the North East.... All roads lead back to the Central Bank of England in turn to the Rothschild Political Banking empire, and finally thier US representation in Rockefeller/Morgan/Astor and many more.

When ANY of these companies needed the money to procure these HUGE contracts... who do you supposed financed them?

The other piece of that puzzle was the LAWYER/POLITICIAN revolving door of government. Roswell Gilpatrick (partner along with John McCloy at Cravath, Swain and Moore one of the oldes and by the most profitable Lawfirms in the WORLD) becomes Asst Sec of Defense and is instrumental with the help of General LANSDALE of the CIA in developing the Vietnam war strategy.... why do you suppose helicopters - which are virtually useless in jungle warfare and COST more than it HELPED - we FRONT and CENTER when LBJ's NSAM reversal takes hold....

One must ask WHO was a man like George William Miller working for and had alliances with....

BELL/TEXTRON is but one small example of the massive investment in the war in Vietnam these Bankers/Lawyers - with inside info - KNEW would pay huge dividends...

Unless JFK stops the Cold War, cracked down on drug producing nations and pushes for World Peace.... and we know how THAT ended...

We KNOW the TRUTH - what we will never do as a nation or a people is ACCEPT IT and understand it as human nature...

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

Royce Skelton and Mrs Virgie Baker - Got to keep those names in memory as I KNEW there were a couple of people who said something about this...

thanks Tommy... I don't want to hijack this thread so I will make the following comment...

Does "Prayer man" seem a bit LARGE in the middle for Oswald? And I didn't think the sleeves were folded up so high.... the images I've seen all show the sleeves buttoned

And I do have a question... the JACKET OSWALD GRABS AT BECKLEY... since the "M" jacket found was not HARVEY's... what happened to the jacket Roberts sees OSWALD zipping up as he leaves - Unless this too is an "assisted" statement and the man who left 1026 never had a jacket.... If this OTHER jacket was left in Irving - it disappearing at the hands of Marina/Ruth is not so far fetched.

Have we considered the made up stories of Bledsoe, Whaley, McWatters and now Roberts to AID with the incriminating evidence against Oswald? If he did not have on a jacket when he left Roberts... the Tippit witnesses and found Jacket would have nothing to do with the man who came home that afternoon.

DJ

PS - Tommy, the Hickey gif starts right around 145 as you say

The front passenger elevator only went to the fourth.

BGjerde

Exactly Bjorn....

So Sawyer and 2(?) men go to the 4th floor, first running into a man getting OFF the elevator at 12:34 that they neglect to bother to question, they "look around" for a couple minutes and SAWYER returns back down to the front... we are never sure of who went with Sawyer or what they did after Sawyer leaves them.

This constitutes the start of the manhunt for the shooter....?

While Baker/Truly are working their way to the roof....

We repeatedly hear how items from the 4th or 5th floors were brought to the 6th to be "found".

Do you give any credibility to the notion that LEE and HARVEY were both in DP and LEE helped confuse those seeing "Oswald" and where, tocreate conflict with witness testimony and thereby discredit it.

I only ask since if there was only one OSWALD in DP - explaining the conflicting sightings gets very difficult and needs to be attributed to witness mistakes...

Wouldn't the notion of creating confusion with the witnesses be a KEY element of the conspiracy... as it has been all along with the various sightings and physical evidence of other Oswalds creating an evidence trail?

In Oswald's Diary, it speaks of the day Oswald meets Marina... March 17, 1961

"We walk I talk a little about myself and she talks alot about herself.... her name is Marina N Prosakoba"

For an 18 year old woman who only speaks Russian, and a 21 year old man who supposedly does not speak Russian all that well if at all during that first year...

I wonder which language these two are conversing in ???

And since we know OSWALD scored pretty well in his RUSSIAN USMC exam (given for what reason ??) I also wonder what the deal is with Peter Gregory:

CE994 is a translation of a 1967 account written in Russian by Marina...

MARINA did not speak english

OSWALD - it is said by those who knew him - did not speak ANY RUSSIAN the first year he was there

OSWALD does not present himself as AMERICAN in any way to this young girl... (and OSWALD was VERY interested in the girls of Russia... having already asked one to marry him, and having "conquered" a number of others... yet somehow was never heard speaking Russian)

What language do we have OSWALD speaking in to the Russia-only speaking Marina so that she thinks he's a Russian native with a specific accent?

And it is not until "later in the evening" that she learns OSWALD is AMERICAN...

It would appear that the ONLY person OSWALD spoke Russian to, was Marina.... or that the only person Marina spoke English to, was OSWALD... or was it Webster?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0305b.htm p.5

Sasha was with his friends from the Institute . One of

his friends introduced me to Lee, calling him Alik (all his

friends, and the people with whom he worked, called him

Alik, in that way rebaptising him with a Russian name, since

the name Lee sounds too unusual in Russian) . But he did not

say that Lee was an American, and when Lee invited me to

dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from

one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent .

But later that same evening I found out that Lee was an

American .

This is a note from OSWALD to ROBERT not long after he defects - 11-26-59 CE295 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0423a.htm

Where he states he would KILL anyone putting on a US uniform in defense of the US system...

and that he would NEVER RETURN TO THE USA...

Whereas in Marina's account we find:

Later, when the dance was .over, we all went in a

group to the house of the Yuriy whose mother had been in

the United States . She turned out to be a very sympathetic

woman who took a very objective approach to everything . I

remember that she quarreled a little with Alik, since Alik

defended America

Lee spoke very favorably about his country and

very interestingly

I only go in this direction as it seems to support there being two very different stories being told by OSWALD... one to those outside of Russia and those inside....

It seems very strange that this man who supposedly teaches himself Russia via memoprization was fluent enough to fool Marina into thinking he was from a Baltic country and NOT an AMERICAN...

Excellent find Sean... Redlich is a gem and may be the only honest "lawyer" in the WC bunch....

I want to add something to your circle of review...

Inspector J Herbert Sawyer who arrived at the TSBD not long after Baker ran in... (as he tells it not long after DECKER orders his men to investigate which, according to the transcripts, is 12:30)

They never ask who this man was... or why he is on the elevator, whether he came down and left the elevator or went up with Sawyer (which I don't think makes sense)

So who was riding the FRONT elevator down to the first floor at 12:37 ?? Just like the Overpass/RRyard the WC did not care.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer's testimony about WHAT he and his men do on the ??th floor is classic... These are the only other police in TSBD other than Baker at this point... right ??

If anyone is moving things from one floor to the other it would be these men.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

The # of references to the 5th floor is overwhelming really.... the # of men who repeatedly place the evidence on the 5th and even 4th floors cannot be overlooked...

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.
Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

No need to get your panties all in a bunch Tommy... If reading up on H&L and putting them into this threads context is too much for you... fine.

"OSWALD" leaving the TSBD includes a discussion of either/both men.

If you want to discuss the merits of H&L, then sure... another thread.

But I still don't think it right to EXCLUDE them from the discussion... just cause you're not up to speed on them.

Someone 5'11" 165lbs around 30 sounds much more like LEE than the small HARVEY.

We can talk about Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of contexts and POVs... one does not supercede the other...

You still have a white shirted OSWALD leaving past Mrs Reid...

TWO Oswalds showing up at the theater

and sightings of Oswald after he was arrested...

ALL related to his leaving the TSBD at some point.... if you don't want to differentiate between H&L that's up to you...

yet any conversation about what and where OSWALD did and went really must include consideration of H&L and its reality...

You have anything specific you wanted to add that this discussion is keeping you from posting ??

David,

The woman Reid saw was not Harvey? One would certainly hope not.

Regardless, shouldn't this be on a "Harvey and Lee" thread?

Sorry... got to fix that....

and no Tommy... IMO H&L needs to be understood and accepted as fact just like conspiracy is. If we neglect to include H&L in the scenario, we get results that dont tell the entire story.

If H&L stays off by itself, it becomes very hard to incorporate the ramifications into our analysis.

We don't have discussions any longer as to whether there was a conspiracy or cover-up or whether Oswald was the assassin... these concepts are understood.

I think it not only FAIR but NECESSARY that we include H&L as part of our accepted knowledge base. I'm doing a very in-depth analysis of the book...

that H&L is still a debated topic is akin to saying the CIA did not bother Garrison... there is simply too much evidence to the contrary.

So, what happens to this thread when we KNOW there is a H&L?

It begins to make some sense... Witnesses in all locations are telling the truth when they claim to have seen Oswald... although it is not possible for him to be in 2 places or more, at once.

TS White see an OSWALD in a car with Carl Mather's license plates.. AFTER the arrest at the theater.

Others see Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of manners

Oswald(s) meeting the description leave breadcrumbs in the months leading up to Nov.

So Tommy... what I suggest is that you read up on the H&L threads as well as visit harveyandlee.net and we can hash it out on the H&L threads... but from what I've learned, H&L must be considered when offering ANY scenario of occurances in Dallas that day.

DJ

How could JFK have been reacting to the sound of a shot coming from his right if the bullet hit the roadway right next to the car and on the other side of it? Could JFK have been reacting to a really bad shot which came from in front of him, near the juncture of the Grassy Knoll and the Triple Underpass?

Tommy -

You make a good point by stating we really do not know the stimuli causing these movements..... (I wish I could find the testimony from a woman who sees sparks fly up behind and to the left of JFK's limo just after he turns...)

Hickey is looking down (or in process) while JFK is looking to his left and does nto snap back to the right until afterward.... Hickey says nothing of this movement, in fact he says he looked over his RIGHT shoulder after the turn of the corner.

Maybe this is the bullet that skips off toward Tague... or according to Max Holland, hits the light... all possibilities...

Hey there Bob...

Z157 is where the film is spliced - again - .....and imo could represent the change from 16 to 48fps filming with the flip of a switch... (if not at 133)

These are supposedly concurrent frames.... which we know is not possible... looks eeriely like the 301/2/3 Greer head turn which was proven to be impossible and from 50% to 80% faster than it should be...

50-80% is 4 to 6 more frames that should be there that are not...

Getting back to the thread - I wonder how the addition and understanding of "Harvey and Lee" to this equation changes things....

The man Reid sees was not HARVEY... it is very possible that the Oswald being discussed is LEE and not the man in the brown shirt with the button down collar that was taken off and replaced in his room.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Can we also try to rememebr that Oswald was a PATSY - he did not shoot anyone that day... A plan is not devised to create a perfect patsy and then allow that person to go around messing things up....

He gets from the TSBD to the Theater virtually undetected.. as planned.

Whoever kills Tippit (LEE?) leads the police to the Theater 15-20 minutes AFTER Harvey is already there, proceeds to the balcony and is ultimately led out the back/alley door.

But it would be a kick in the A$$ if we could place him on the landing or just inside the building (C.Arnold) between 12:25 and 12:35....

Here are Towner and Hughes around the "splices"

Hughes was more WEST than Towner so the angles are off... and we are talking about a single frame versus 6-8 from Towner. Since HUGHES does not continue to where Zapruder starts

this frame may have simply been a coincidence - that it's at exactly the same place is puzzling though.

From the work I did with Chris Davidson, the removal of those TOWNER frames create the correct starting point and ending point for Towner and Zapruder to sync.

Having watched some of Max Holland's LOST BULLET ... I found HICKEY looking at the road just after the limo makes this filmus interuptus turn..

and still believe a shot was fired prior to the Elm Tree.. we also see JFK's impossible head turn at 157...

I alos seem to remember witnesses stating they saw a spark and dust kick up off the ground at that spot as well... just as the limo passed

DJ

It is my opinion that when Wesley and Linnie are brought in to DPD they are TOLD what they need to say.... just like Bledsoe, Whaley and many others.

With Wesley possible in ALOT of trouble for his rifle and involvement, I BELIEVE they did what they were told to to stay out of trouble.

This particular morning they are going thru a process they NEVER went thru... Wesley always went over to pick Oswald up... yet THIS TIME he walks with a rifle in a bag over to Wesley's ???

Please.

Tommy - What I now understand and accept is that the evidence - virtually ALL of it - was PACKAGED with a single purpose, a single vision, and bears little resemblence to what actually happened... unless you dig and are willing to accept witness statements over packaged physical evidence.

The evidence that presented itself on the 22nd led those in Dallas to conclude shots came from the front and that putting Oswald in that window with that rifle at that time is impossible.

It also offered the impossibility of Oswald getting from his room to Tippit in the time allowed... ALLOWED - not investigated... He came in from the WEST, from the Barber shop... yet somehow THAT didn't make the published report.

EVERYTHING that comes after the SS steals JFK is a lie designed to finish the plan - Oswald the lone nut killed the POTUS just like all POTUS assassinations and he did it alone, from behind with 3 shots.

In virtually EVERY CASE the evidence published had nothing to do with the evidence gathered or analyzed...

To ME, It does not matter at all whether HARVEY's words were lies or not...we have no way to prove what he said... or even whether the reports of what he said are accurate or not... it's Fritz and Bookout against a publically convicted dead man.

The evidence of the conspiracy is pervasive thoughout the evidence offered...

These "reports" were written after the fact and after Oswald was dead. They were read by WCR lawyers who picked and chose what was best for the "report" - people like Specter and Jenner and Ball.

Of course Oswald didn't always tell the truth... so what?

Is there anything you believe he could have said that would have made a bit of difference?

Anything you believe ANYONE could have said that would have changed the outcome?

Baker perjured himself when he testified about OSWALD - or he perjured himself when he wrote his affidavit.

Here we are MONTHS later with MONTHS of investigation and analysis and conclusion...

The FBI had concluded Oswald was the man on Dec 9, 1963 and stopped looking for anyone else Nov 23, 1963.

Believe what ever you like Tommy... if Fritz said Oswald said it... it must be true.

In a world where the memo below is written from one WCR lawyer to another and DROPPED COMPLETELY as well as Harvey & Lee being a proven fact... this minutia will keep you busy forever...

Textron's purchase of BELL helicopter (while they were $100M in debt and losing sales) in late summer 1960 on the advice of the CIA and funded by an unsecured $25,000,000 "loan" with a 6-YEAR deferred payment plan

from PRUDENTIAL LIFE and with the legal help of the HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS legal firm Cravath, Swain and Moore where McCloy was a partner and another partner becomes #2 at Defense under McNamara... all tying back to the First Bank of BOSTON and SUN Life of London... to ME is much more revealing of the highest level plans to profitize the Vietnam war and the impetus behind the assassination... then the workings of Fritz/Curry/Decker and the FBI/SS/CIA to cover up the realities of the killings.

The high-technology branch of Textron operations

began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American

Research and Development Corporation. a three million

dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun

Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative.

Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance

Company and director of First National of

Boston, the bank whose extraordinary largess built

Textron

ALL THE EVIDENCE IS BS Tommy, and can only serve to illustrate the conspiracy and cover-up.

THIS is what the FBI said happened: a shot AFTER z313 - 3 shots, 3 hits - ever see THIS presented by anyone to the public or a government inquiry/committee?.

The memo below that is, to me, much worse than Katzenbach...

April 27, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: J. Lee Rankin

FROM: Norman Redlich

snip

Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by

the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President

by the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the

bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast

corner window of the TSBD building.

As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown

that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested

above. All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be

supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out

against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

snip

Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

snip

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

Tommy - they didn't correct the reports, now did they?

[...]

This is the opening of A11... and yet days/weeks later (after his death) you want us to believe he and the others were get [sic] these "quotes" correctly [sic]??

[...]

David,

I see your point. They needed a proofreader!

Hmmm, actually, that wouldn't explain it, would it.

You seem to be arguing that the the bad guys made that sentence up and put it in Oswald's mouth. i'm saying they probably didn't make it up because I don't think they were clever enough to not answer the question in such a creative, Oswald-like way.

But you're right. Oswald probably didn't say exactly that sentence. He probably said, "You know how young guys are...," and they misquoted him, seein' as how so much time had elapsed and all.

Question: Since the bad guys claimed that Oswald denied owning a rifle, why didn't they have him deny owning a revolver, too? Then, they could "produce' the one he may-or-may-not have owned and substituted it for the one that may-or-may-not have been planted on him in the theater, yelled xxxx xxxx pants on fire, publicized it, and gotten their own gun back!

--Tommy

Tommy -

What I'm arguing is that without a tape recording (stenographer notes can be changed or transcribed incorrectly) we cannot know.... and going on the basis of what the rest of the evidence tells us - Oswald was guilty before it even happened so much so that virtually every piece of evidence recorded and offered confirms this preconclusion... is it really a surprise to you that the DPD coordinated its story and made sure to account for all the WHY's... while at the same time dropping the clues to their compliance with the conspiracy?

The amount of "evidence" created after the fact is mind boggling... everything from ONI files "compiled" for outside review which cherry-picked the info, to the interpretation/inclusion of parts of the FBI WCDocs, to what the FBI reports themselves say, to who they DIDN'T talk to.

COULD he have said it? of course... SHOULD the DPD be infinitely ashamed of itself and held accountable for not bothering to record as evidence the FREELY GIVEN statements of the suspect PRIOR to his arrest for said crime or arraignment... of course....

Now... to Fritz's notes and his report....

In the NOTES (p3 of 5) - it says Oswald tells him he "bgt gun 7 mo Ft W.(orth)" surprisingly THAT didn't make the interrogation reports...

In the REPORT (p3) it says that Oswald said "he went home, changed his trousers, and got his pistol and went to the pictures"

In the NOTES (and from Bookout) we learn it was not just his trousers but his shirt as well..

WHERE does Oswald talk about putting on a jacket before he left??

Fritz's report continues with WHALEY identifying Oswald... even though he was not the cab driver of 1st choice....

and on and on....

====

Tommy - my overridding point here is that the evidence - especially "this is what Oswald said and did according to us... yet we have no proof" - is not something we can have any real faith in...

The EVIDENCE offered supports his changing his shirt... and that the recollections of those who see OSWALD prior to his arrest (Bledsoe and Roberts) are at best coached reconstructions using the evidence found and clothing on when arrested as its basis.

Fritz writes twice in the3 notes he changed his shirt... yet fails to inform the FBI who has the "arrest shirt" on the 22nd, that it is NOT the shirt worn at 12:30....

Why not?

Hi Tom...

Should have's, why not's, wouldn't you's can be fun thought exercises yet what does that get us?

The question to ask is whether the revolver turned in is the same as the revolver that was supposedly in his possession. Since Seaport is bogus and he also says he got the gun elsewhere... had you considered the DUPLICITY of this situation as it fits with the DUPLICITY is most every other one....

2 guns... the one Oswald MAY have gotten from his room and the one used in the shooting... I think if you read thru each of the statements from the "arresting officers" at the scene in the theater you'd have a better feel for the "gun in Oswald's hand going 'snap'" and who had what... if "whoever" was able to place an unfired mail order rifle under some boxes - is it so hard to see the same set-up with the revolver?

-----

I'm also curious about that statement....

If, as you think, the revolver was planted on Oswald at the theater, who, then, do you think came up with the classic Oswald line as to why he had taken the dang thing with him to the picture show -- "You know how boys do when they have a gun, they just carry it."

Fritz, on page 600 of WCR Appendix 11, types this line... it does not appear in his notes...

This is the opening of A11... and yet days/weeks later (after his death) you want us to believe he and the others were get these "quotes" correctly ??

As discussed in chapters IV and V, Ike Harvey Oswald was interrogated

for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on

Friday, November 22,1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24,

1963. There were no stenographic or tape recordings of these ihterviews.

Several of the investigators present at one or more of the

interrogation sessions, prior to testifying before the Commission, had

prepared memoranda setting forth their recollections of the questioning

of Oswald and his responses. The following are the most

important of these reports.