David Josephs

Have to disagree with you on that last sentence Peter... otherwise Spot on.

What I have found, in my research at least, is that the "best interests" we are talking about were not necessarily UNITED STATES best interests but in the best interest to the Bankers/Lawyers representing and bank-rolling multi-national big business interests...

What I have found Peter is the direct line between LONDON and BOSTON/NY "interests" who, for example, bought BELL HELIPCOPTER via TEXTRON, First National of Boston, Sun Life of Canada, and Prudential Life after they decimated the US TEXTILE market of the North East.... All roads lead back to the Central Bank of England in turn to the Rothschild Political Banking empire, and finally thier US representation in Rockefeller/Morgan/Astor and many more.

When ANY of these companies needed the money to procure these HUGE contracts... who do you supposed financed them?

The other piece of that puzzle was the LAWYER/POLITICIAN revolving door of government. Roswell Gilpatrick (partner along with John McCloy at Cravath, Swain and Moore one of the oldes and by the most profitable Lawfirms in the WORLD) becomes Asst Sec of Defense and is instrumental with the help of General LANSDALE of the CIA in developing the Vietnam war strategy.... why do you suppose helicopters - which are virtually useless in jungle warfare and COST more than it HELPED - we FRONT and CENTER when LBJ's NSAM reversal takes hold....

One must ask WHO was a man like George William Miller working for and had alliances with....

BELL/TEXTRON is but one small example of the massive investment in the war in Vietnam these Bankers/Lawyers - with inside info - KNEW would pay huge dividends...

Unless JFK stops the Cold War, cracked down on drug producing nations and pushes for World Peace.... and we know how THAT ended...

We KNOW the TRUTH - what we will never do as a nation or a people is ACCEPT IT and understand it as human nature...

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

Royce Skelton and Mrs Virgie Baker - Got to keep those names in memory as I KNEW there were a couple of people who said something about this...

thanks Tommy... I don't want to hijack this thread so I will make the following comment...

Does "Prayer man" seem a bit LARGE in the middle for Oswald? And I didn't think the sleeves were folded up so high.... the images I've seen all show the sleeves buttoned

And I do have a question... the JACKET OSWALD GRABS AT BECKLEY... since the "M" jacket found was not HARVEY's... what happened to the jacket Roberts sees OSWALD zipping up as he leaves - Unless this too is an "assisted" statement and the man who left 1026 never had a jacket.... If this OTHER jacket was left in Irving - it disappearing at the hands of Marina/Ruth is not so far fetched.

Have we considered the made up stories of Bledsoe, Whaley, McWatters and now Roberts to AID with the incriminating evidence against Oswald? If he did not have on a jacket when he left Roberts... the Tippit witnesses and found Jacket would have nothing to do with the man who came home that afternoon.

DJ

PS - Tommy, the Hickey gif starts right around 145 as you say

The front passenger elevator only went to the fourth.

BGjerde

Exactly Bjorn....

So Sawyer and 2(?) men go to the 4th floor, first running into a man getting OFF the elevator at 12:34 that they neglect to bother to question, they "look around" for a couple minutes and SAWYER returns back down to the front... we are never sure of who went with Sawyer or what they did after Sawyer leaves them.

This constitutes the start of the manhunt for the shooter....?

While Baker/Truly are working their way to the roof....

We repeatedly hear how items from the 4th or 5th floors were brought to the 6th to be "found".

Do you give any credibility to the notion that LEE and HARVEY were both in DP and LEE helped confuse those seeing "Oswald" and where, tocreate conflict with witness testimony and thereby discredit it.

I only ask since if there was only one OSWALD in DP - explaining the conflicting sightings gets very difficult and needs to be attributed to witness mistakes...

Wouldn't the notion of creating confusion with the witnesses be a KEY element of the conspiracy... as it has been all along with the various sightings and physical evidence of other Oswalds creating an evidence trail?

In Oswald's Diary, it speaks of the day Oswald meets Marina... March 17, 1961

"We walk I talk a little about myself and she talks alot about herself.... her name is Marina N Prosakoba"

For an 18 year old woman who only speaks Russian, and a 21 year old man who supposedly does not speak Russian all that well if at all during that first year...

I wonder which language these two are conversing in ???

And since we know OSWALD scored pretty well in his RUSSIAN USMC exam (given for what reason ??) I also wonder what the deal is with Peter Gregory:

CE994 is a translation of a 1967 account written in Russian by Marina...

MARINA did not speak english

OSWALD - it is said by those who knew him - did not speak ANY RUSSIAN the first year he was there

OSWALD does not present himself as AMERICAN in any way to this young girl... (and OSWALD was VERY interested in the girls of Russia... having already asked one to marry him, and having "conquered" a number of others... yet somehow was never heard speaking Russian)

What language do we have OSWALD speaking in to the Russia-only speaking Marina so that she thinks he's a Russian native with a specific accent?

And it is not until "later in the evening" that she learns OSWALD is AMERICAN...

It would appear that the ONLY person OSWALD spoke Russian to, was Marina.... or that the only person Marina spoke English to, was OSWALD... or was it Webster?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0305b.htm p.5

Sasha was with his friends from the Institute . One of

his friends introduced me to Lee, calling him Alik (all his

friends, and the people with whom he worked, called him

Alik, in that way rebaptising him with a Russian name, since

the name Lee sounds too unusual in Russian) . But he did not

say that Lee was an American, and when Lee invited me to

dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from

one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent .

But later that same evening I found out that Lee was an

American .

This is a note from OSWALD to ROBERT not long after he defects - 11-26-59 CE295 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0423a.htm

Where he states he would KILL anyone putting on a US uniform in defense of the US system...

and that he would NEVER RETURN TO THE USA...

Whereas in Marina's account we find:

Later, when the dance was .over, we all went in a

group to the house of the Yuriy whose mother had been in

the United States . She turned out to be a very sympathetic

woman who took a very objective approach to everything . I

remember that she quarreled a little with Alik, since Alik

defended America

Lee spoke very favorably about his country and

very interestingly

I only go in this direction as it seems to support there being two very different stories being told by OSWALD... one to those outside of Russia and those inside....

It seems very strange that this man who supposedly teaches himself Russia via memoprization was fluent enough to fool Marina into thinking he was from a Baltic country and NOT an AMERICAN...

Excellent find Sean... Redlich is a gem and may be the only honest "lawyer" in the WC bunch....

I want to add something to your circle of review...

Inspector J Herbert Sawyer who arrived at the TSBD not long after Baker ran in... (as he tells it not long after DECKER orders his men to investigate which, according to the transcripts, is 12:30)

They never ask who this man was... or why he is on the elevator, whether he came down and left the elevator or went up with Sawyer (which I don't think makes sense)

So who was riding the FRONT elevator down to the first floor at 12:37 ?? Just like the Overpass/RRyard the WC did not care.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Sawyer's testimony about WHAT he and his men do on the ??th floor is classic... These are the only other police in TSBD other than Baker at this point... right ??

If anyone is moving things from one floor to the other it would be these men.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

The # of references to the 5th floor is overwhelming really.... the # of men who repeatedly place the evidence on the 5th and even 4th floors cannot be overlooked...

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.
Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

No need to get your panties all in a bunch Tommy... If reading up on H&L and putting them into this threads context is too much for you... fine.

"OSWALD" leaving the TSBD includes a discussion of either/both men.

If you want to discuss the merits of H&L, then sure... another thread.

But I still don't think it right to EXCLUDE them from the discussion... just cause you're not up to speed on them.

Someone 5'11" 165lbs around 30 sounds much more like LEE than the small HARVEY.

We can talk about Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of contexts and POVs... one does not supercede the other...

You still have a white shirted OSWALD leaving past Mrs Reid...

TWO Oswalds showing up at the theater

and sightings of Oswald after he was arrested...

ALL related to his leaving the TSBD at some point.... if you don't want to differentiate between H&L that's up to you...

yet any conversation about what and where OSWALD did and went really must include consideration of H&L and its reality...

You have anything specific you wanted to add that this discussion is keeping you from posting ??

David,

The woman Reid saw was not Harvey? One would certainly hope not.

Regardless, shouldn't this be on a "Harvey and Lee" thread?

Sorry... got to fix that....

and no Tommy... IMO H&L needs to be understood and accepted as fact just like conspiracy is. If we neglect to include H&L in the scenario, we get results that dont tell the entire story.

If H&L stays off by itself, it becomes very hard to incorporate the ramifications into our analysis.

We don't have discussions any longer as to whether there was a conspiracy or cover-up or whether Oswald was the assassin... these concepts are understood.

I think it not only FAIR but NECESSARY that we include H&L as part of our accepted knowledge base. I'm doing a very in-depth analysis of the book...

that H&L is still a debated topic is akin to saying the CIA did not bother Garrison... there is simply too much evidence to the contrary.

So, what happens to this thread when we KNOW there is a H&L?

It begins to make some sense... Witnesses in all locations are telling the truth when they claim to have seen Oswald... although it is not possible for him to be in 2 places or more, at once.

TS White see an OSWALD in a car with Carl Mather's license plates.. AFTER the arrest at the theater.

Others see Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of manners

Oswald(s) meeting the description leave breadcrumbs in the months leading up to Nov.

So Tommy... what I suggest is that you read up on the H&L threads as well as visit harveyandlee.net and we can hash it out on the H&L threads... but from what I've learned, H&L must be considered when offering ANY scenario of occurances in Dallas that day.

DJ

How could JFK have been reacting to the sound of a shot coming from his right if the bullet hit the roadway right next to the car and on the other side of it? Could JFK have been reacting to a really bad shot which came from in front of him, near the juncture of the Grassy Knoll and the Triple Underpass?

Tommy -

You make a good point by stating we really do not know the stimuli causing these movements..... (I wish I could find the testimony from a woman who sees sparks fly up behind and to the left of JFK's limo just after he turns...)

Hickey is looking down (or in process) while JFK is looking to his left and does nto snap back to the right until afterward.... Hickey says nothing of this movement, in fact he says he looked over his RIGHT shoulder after the turn of the corner.

Maybe this is the bullet that skips off toward Tague... or according to Max Holland, hits the light... all possibilities...

Hey there Bob...

Z157 is where the film is spliced - again - .....and imo could represent the change from 16 to 48fps filming with the flip of a switch... (if not at 133)

These are supposedly concurrent frames.... which we know is not possible... looks eeriely like the 301/2/3 Greer head turn which was proven to be impossible and from 50% to 80% faster than it should be...

50-80% is 4 to 6 more frames that should be there that are not...

Getting back to the thread - I wonder how the addition and understanding of "Harvey and Lee" to this equation changes things....

The man Reid sees was not HARVEY... it is very possible that the Oswald being discussed is LEE and not the man in the brown shirt with the button down collar that was taken off and replaced in his room.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Can we also try to rememebr that Oswald was a PATSY - he did not shoot anyone that day... A plan is not devised to create a perfect patsy and then allow that person to go around messing things up....

He gets from the TSBD to the Theater virtually undetected.. as planned.

Whoever kills Tippit (LEE?) leads the police to the Theater 15-20 minutes AFTER Harvey is already there, proceeds to the balcony and is ultimately led out the back/alley door.

But it would be a kick in the A$$ if we could place him on the landing or just inside the building (C.Arnold) between 12:25 and 12:35....

Here are Towner and Hughes around the "splices"

Hughes was more WEST than Towner so the angles are off... and we are talking about a single frame versus 6-8 from Towner. Since HUGHES does not continue to where Zapruder starts

this frame may have simply been a coincidence - that it's at exactly the same place is puzzling though.

From the work I did with Chris Davidson, the removal of those TOWNER frames create the correct starting point and ending point for Towner and Zapruder to sync.

Having watched some of Max Holland's LOST BULLET ... I found HICKEY looking at the road just after the limo makes this filmus interuptus turn..

and still believe a shot was fired prior to the Elm Tree.. we also see JFK's impossible head turn at 157...

I alos seem to remember witnesses stating they saw a spark and dust kick up off the ground at that spot as well... just as the limo passed

DJ

It is my opinion that when Wesley and Linnie are brought in to DPD they are TOLD what they need to say.... just like Bledsoe, Whaley and many others.

With Wesley possible in ALOT of trouble for his rifle and involvement, I BELIEVE they did what they were told to to stay out of trouble.

This particular morning they are going thru a process they NEVER went thru... Wesley always went over to pick Oswald up... yet THIS TIME he walks with a rifle in a bag over to Wesley's ???

Please.

Tommy - What I now understand and accept is that the evidence - virtually ALL of it - was PACKAGED with a single purpose, a single vision, and bears little resemblence to what actually happened... unless you dig and are willing to accept witness statements over packaged physical evidence.

The evidence that presented itself on the 22nd led those in Dallas to conclude shots came from the front and that putting Oswald in that window with that rifle at that time is impossible.

It also offered the impossibility of Oswald getting from his room to Tippit in the time allowed... ALLOWED - not investigated... He came in from the WEST, from the Barber shop... yet somehow THAT didn't make the published report.

EVERYTHING that comes after the SS steals JFK is a lie designed to finish the plan - Oswald the lone nut killed the POTUS just like all POTUS assassinations and he did it alone, from behind with 3 shots.

In virtually EVERY CASE the evidence published had nothing to do with the evidence gathered or analyzed...

To ME, It does not matter at all whether HARVEY's words were lies or not...we have no way to prove what he said... or even whether the reports of what he said are accurate or not... it's Fritz and Bookout against a publically convicted dead man.

The evidence of the conspiracy is pervasive thoughout the evidence offered...

These "reports" were written after the fact and after Oswald was dead. They were read by WCR lawyers who picked and chose what was best for the "report" - people like Specter and Jenner and Ball.

Of course Oswald didn't always tell the truth... so what?

Is there anything you believe he could have said that would have made a bit of difference?

Anything you believe ANYONE could have said that would have changed the outcome?

Baker perjured himself when he testified about OSWALD - or he perjured himself when he wrote his affidavit.

Here we are MONTHS later with MONTHS of investigation and analysis and conclusion...

The FBI had concluded Oswald was the man on Dec 9, 1963 and stopped looking for anyone else Nov 23, 1963.

Believe what ever you like Tommy... if Fritz said Oswald said it... it must be true.

In a world where the memo below is written from one WCR lawyer to another and DROPPED COMPLETELY as well as Harvey & Lee being a proven fact... this minutia will keep you busy forever...

Textron's purchase of BELL helicopter (while they were $100M in debt and losing sales) in late summer 1960 on the advice of the CIA and funded by an unsecured $25,000,000 "loan" with a 6-YEAR deferred payment plan

from PRUDENTIAL LIFE and with the legal help of the HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS legal firm Cravath, Swain and Moore where McCloy was a partner and another partner becomes #2 at Defense under McNamara... all tying back to the First Bank of BOSTON and SUN Life of London... to ME is much more revealing of the highest level plans to profitize the Vietnam war and the impetus behind the assassination... then the workings of Fritz/Curry/Decker and the FBI/SS/CIA to cover up the realities of the killings.

The high-technology branch of Textron operations

began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American

Research and Development Corporation. a three million

dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun

Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative.

Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance

Company and director of First National of

Boston, the bank whose extraordinary largess built

Textron

ALL THE EVIDENCE IS BS Tommy, and can only serve to illustrate the conspiracy and cover-up.

THIS is what the FBI said happened: a shot AFTER z313 - 3 shots, 3 hits - ever see THIS presented by anyone to the public or a government inquiry/committee?.

The memo below that is, to me, much worse than Katzenbach...

April 27, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: J. Lee Rankin

FROM: Norman Redlich

snip

Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by

the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President

by the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the

bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast

corner window of the TSBD building.

As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown

that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested

above. All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be

supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out

against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

snip

Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

snip

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

Tommy - they didn't correct the reports, now did they?

[...]

This is the opening of A11... and yet days/weeks later (after his death) you want us to believe he and the others were get [sic] these "quotes" correctly [sic]??

[...]

David,

I see your point. They needed a proofreader!

Hmmm, actually, that wouldn't explain it, would it.

You seem to be arguing that the the bad guys made that sentence up and put it in Oswald's mouth. i'm saying they probably didn't make it up because I don't think they were clever enough to not answer the question in such a creative, Oswald-like way.

But you're right. Oswald probably didn't say exactly that sentence. He probably said, "You know how young guys are...," and they misquoted him, seein' as how so much time had elapsed and all.

Question: Since the bad guys claimed that Oswald denied owning a rifle, why didn't they have him deny owning a revolver, too? Then, they could "produce' the one he may-or-may-not have owned and substituted it for the one that may-or-may-not have been planted on him in the theater, yelled xxxx xxxx pants on fire, publicized it, and gotten their own gun back!

--Tommy

Tommy -

What I'm arguing is that without a tape recording (stenographer notes can be changed or transcribed incorrectly) we cannot know.... and going on the basis of what the rest of the evidence tells us - Oswald was guilty before it even happened so much so that virtually every piece of evidence recorded and offered confirms this preconclusion... is it really a surprise to you that the DPD coordinated its story and made sure to account for all the WHY's... while at the same time dropping the clues to their compliance with the conspiracy?

The amount of "evidence" created after the fact is mind boggling... everything from ONI files "compiled" for outside review which cherry-picked the info, to the interpretation/inclusion of parts of the FBI WCDocs, to what the FBI reports themselves say, to who they DIDN'T talk to.

COULD he have said it? of course... SHOULD the DPD be infinitely ashamed of itself and held accountable for not bothering to record as evidence the FREELY GIVEN statements of the suspect PRIOR to his arrest for said crime or arraignment... of course....

Now... to Fritz's notes and his report....

In the NOTES (p3 of 5) - it says Oswald tells him he "bgt gun 7 mo Ft W.(orth)" surprisingly THAT didn't make the interrogation reports...

In the REPORT (p3) it says that Oswald said "he went home, changed his trousers, and got his pistol and went to the pictures"

In the NOTES (and from Bookout) we learn it was not just his trousers but his shirt as well..

WHERE does Oswald talk about putting on a jacket before he left??

Fritz's report continues with WHALEY identifying Oswald... even though he was not the cab driver of 1st choice....

and on and on....

====

Tommy - my overridding point here is that the evidence - especially "this is what Oswald said and did according to us... yet we have no proof" - is not something we can have any real faith in...

The EVIDENCE offered supports his changing his shirt... and that the recollections of those who see OSWALD prior to his arrest (Bledsoe and Roberts) are at best coached reconstructions using the evidence found and clothing on when arrested as its basis.

Fritz writes twice in the3 notes he changed his shirt... yet fails to inform the FBI who has the "arrest shirt" on the 22nd, that it is NOT the shirt worn at 12:30....

Why not?

Hi Tom...

Should have's, why not's, wouldn't you's can be fun thought exercises yet what does that get us?

The question to ask is whether the revolver turned in is the same as the revolver that was supposedly in his possession. Since Seaport is bogus and he also says he got the gun elsewhere... had you considered the DUPLICITY of this situation as it fits with the DUPLICITY is most every other one....

2 guns... the one Oswald MAY have gotten from his room and the one used in the shooting... I think if you read thru each of the statements from the "arresting officers" at the scene in the theater you'd have a better feel for the "gun in Oswald's hand going 'snap'" and who had what... if "whoever" was able to place an unfired mail order rifle under some boxes - is it so hard to see the same set-up with the revolver?

-----

I'm also curious about that statement....

If, as you think, the revolver was planted on Oswald at the theater, who, then, do you think came up with the classic Oswald line as to why he had taken the dang thing with him to the picture show -- "You know how boys do when they have a gun, they just carry it."

Fritz, on page 600 of WCR Appendix 11, types this line... it does not appear in his notes...

This is the opening of A11... and yet days/weeks later (after his death) you want us to believe he and the others were get these "quotes" correctly ??

As discussed in chapters IV and V, Ike Harvey Oswald was interrogated

for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on

Friday, November 22,1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24,

1963. There were no stenographic or tape recordings of these ihterviews.

Several of the investigators present at one or more of the

interrogation sessions, prior to testifying before the Commission, had

prepared memoranda setting forth their recollections of the questioning

of Oswald and his responses. The following are the most

important of these reports.

Thanks Richard...

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt.
Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

Roger is not shown CE151... Wonder why?

[...]

The floor laying crew had been laying new plywood, pounding hammers for days on the floors of an old warehouse. That tells me that the floors they were working on and the floors below the pounding would have been covered with dust and debris knocked loose from the floors and ceiling below. It is not difficult to envision everything on the the 5th and 6th floors covered with a film of dust and dirt.

[...]

Richard,

I've read in either Truly's or Shelley's WC testimony that the order fillers like Oswald rarely had occasion to go up to the sixth floor to fill an order.

Anyway, what does it really matter which shirt Prayer Man was wearing?

Would the "tan" "light brown" "brown" button-down collar one be better at covering Oswald's tee shirt? Is that why he has to be wearing that one?

Do you think it's impossible that Oswald lied about changing his clothes?

He was known to have prevaricated from time to time, wasn't he?

if you had gone home just to get your revolver and some ammunition, would you admit it to the interrogators?

Do you think Oswald really went home just to change his dirty clothes and grabbed his gun as an afterthought?

Or do you think that gun was planted on him at the Texas Theater?

--Tommy

Thomas, hope you don't mind my addressing your question...

Look at all the images of either Oswald... but focus on Harvey. Appears to me that he is ALWAYS dressed fairly well... from USMC days thru FPCC leafletting - and was dressed just fine at the theater until they roughed him up a bit.

My point is that HARVEY it seems, liked to make a decent impression. He did so to Truly when he was interviewed.... and I have yet to see a photo of HARVEY where he is not dressed well.

The big IF Oswald knew he had to get tot he theater to meet a contact... and knowing he was doing the work for the FBI/CIA he would have to protect himself... Although there is testimony from those in the theater at the time that the revolver was being held by a dark, short sleeved arm... and we KNOW the Seaport Chain of evidence is bogus.... so his being set up with a planted gun... especially given what Hill says about the shells... is very possible/probable.

Ask yourself whether WESTBROOK's finding of the jacket makes any sense... Oswald grabs a jacket only to take it off and leave it on the ground ???

How reliable is the half blind Earlene Roberts?

The problem I have is Fritz page 2...

"Says 11-22-63 rode bus

got trans same out of pocket

........ got off bus after seeing

jam got cab etc .85 fare told you wrong before

at apt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in ditry clothes - long sleeve red sh

+ gray tr."

The "TOLD YOU WRONG BEFORE" sounds like a quote from Oswald... was he telling them that was NOT how it happened yet they did not include that part?? IDK... but the bus ride and Baker/Truly did not happen as these notes suggest... and Oswald I believe says so repeatedly....

These notes were not made public or even offered to the SS/FBI until ?? (any help?) so that Bledsoe's story could be made to support the notes....

I am also not 100% convinced that HARVEY was the man who went to his room in "shirt sleeves".... unless he had already removed his shirt as he was moving along.

(As a side note, I know I have favorite clothes, no reason to believe that Oswald here did not like much of the same things... grey slacks, t-shirt and brown/reddish sport/dress shirt as a "jacket" or covering. He also had some blue stuff but for the most part his clothing was all very similar)

Awareness of this info about his changing clothes (or Baker's affidavit saying nothing about a lunchroom, door or little window) leads me back to the conclusion that the evidence compiled to convict Oswald was created on the spot as needed... Soemthing the DPD and FBI were notoriously known for.

DJ

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2110-030.gif

And in the notebook used to record all the evidence and where it is listed on the inventory sheets - even the "reddish shirt with metallic thread" becomes a BROWN SHIRT...

Speculation as to whether he changed his clothes or not is just that, speculation. Either we believe that Fritz and Bookout got what he said correctly or they made it up...

the clothes they describe, WHERE they describe it as Oswald supposedly tells them... is exactly where they were found.

The Oswald Mrs Reid sees in a Tshirt is not the same person Ruby killed.... or in my opinion the man she stammers about NOT seeing/leaving in the lunchroom

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.
Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on

Now according to Captain Will Fritz's transcription of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's interrogation notes, Oswald said he "changed shirts" back at his rooming house:

Both Bookhout and SS Agent Thomas Kelley report that Oswald described the shirt as "reddish" rather than straightforwardly red.

**

I submit that the dishevelled looking "light brown" longsleeve shirt itemised by the FBI as Q369/A16 and by the WC as CE151 is none other than the shirt Oswald wore to work the day of the assassination.

And I submit that it's the very shirt we see Prayer Man wearing:

(Note: I am indebted to a researcher named 'Beowulf', who is active on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case Forum, for very kindly pointing me to the list of shirt exhibits. S.M.)

Excellent Sean... I had made the argument to Cinque and Fetzer about the changing of the clothes which in turn makes Bledsoe a tool of the DPD and it impossible to use Altgens and the arrest shirt for any comparisons

....

Here is the final inventory page 11199G, a closeup of the first batch of clothing NOT NUMBERED past 455.

Oswald (via Fritz and Bookout) tell us he changed shirt and "briches"... and put them in the bottom drawer of the dresser... obviously dirty...

and here it is listed without an inventory # - these are the items Stovall and Rose initialed before releasing to FBI... notice what looks like "RF" Robert Frazier's initials on the front bottom - left side of shirt

Do you know when and where THEY SAY CE151 was found? and please notice the next items of clothing... ce156 and ce157... the "gray" slacks he was said to be wearing... by Whaley, Frazier, Bledsoe although none were sure....

Cheers

DJ

Cliff...

before I begin I want you to know I agree with the conclusion that the holes in the shirt and jacket make the SBT impossible. Whether exotic weapons were also used... IDK but given it existed and these boys liked their toys, why not?

My concern with this approach is that it does not address the larger picture.... Gerald Ford fixed it and the WCR lied about it to support a conclusion that HAD to be accepted.... while the physiology is impressive... this overlay tells the entire story. SBT=impossible... we get that and so do MOST of the "newbies"....

Public attention will wane since there is little new or JUICY to keep the attention.... other than the discussion over the shameful way Dallas treated the anniversary.

At 6:45 EST (5:45 Dallas time and just over 5 hours after the shots) the Surgeon General of the Navy with the help/knowledge of Admirals Galloway and Burkley remove evidence from the medical record that points to more than one shooter..

This occurs during PHASE 1 - "the Commie did it possibly with the help/direction of Castro" A Castro/Commie conspiracy to kill JFK SUPPOSEDLY was the desired result of an investigation so the MILITARY could be unleashed.

There is good evidence that this was called off DURING THE FLIGHT BACK and that Oswald was to be the one and only.... at the same time evidence in Dallas is NOT TAKEN to support a GK shooter. No photos of the footprints and "assets" already working the crowd..... How would THEY know at 1:30 in Dallas that evidence of a communist conspiracy WITH OSWALD would also not be acceptable...

Unless there was foreknowledge - which in reality os the entire ball of wax.... FOREKNOWLEDGE removes all doubt...

Also during this flight, arrangements are in the works for personnel (Humes/Boswell/Kenney/Ebersole) at Bethesda to receive JFK's body at 6:45. Humes testifies to such.

Bethesda and the DC district are run by Galloway and Wehle (Lipsey is Wehle's asst)

Kenney is in the room with Hume and Boswell when JFK's body is "unzipped" - they would also be aware of the caskets and the returning of the body to the navy ambulance.

Thanks to O'Connor and a handful of others, we KNOW what happened in that morgue prior to 8pm.

WCR: (NOT possible unless the body is removed from the PARKLAND casket)

Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately?
Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination.

HSCA: (He's still off by an hour or so... and does not address what the MDW was doing)

Mr. CORNWELL. Approximately what time of the day or night did the autopsy begin?
Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening and after some preliminary examinations, about 8 or 8:15. Just very briefly, in what order or sequence did you conduct the autopsy?

ARRB: (And here it is... corroboration of the story of half dozen other men... )

Q. During the autopsy, was the room quiet and hushed or noisy and bustling? How would you describe the scene?
A. It varied. We were there for a long time. We were there from about 6:00 or 6:30 in the evening until 5 o'clock the next morning.

Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?
A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately.

As we both know the Casket does not even arrive out front until 6:55... is offloaded by the SS/FBI at 7:17... is REloaded and offloaded again by 8pm.

And yet this information floats out there without serious concern or comment to its impossbility.... or the implications it has to the testimony of these morgue "workers" ...

Like the bullet holes, THESE cannot be moved or changed or made to disappear by the CIA/FBI/SS or anyone else.

And yet we are discussing evidence that has no authentication, no chain of custody, nothing that would lead ANYONE to conclude it was a representation of JFK at Parkland...

Just the kind of dead horse stuff you mention in others.... the medical evidence is as far from "evidence" as it gets...

So what is the "big juicy" that may keep the interest of the common person? That the FBI lied and fabricated/altered/destroyed evidence?

Too much there to use - overwhelms the unitiated...

How about Hoover sending an Agent to Ft Worth TX on Saturday morning the 23rd to get the asst principal out of bed to TAKE the original school records of Lee Harvey Oswald from 1954

and yet another agent to NOLA to question the employees, managers and owners of Pfisterer Dental about 1956, 1957 and 1958.

What pray tell did HOOVER KNOW that prompted him to gather up materials from Oswald's past, specifically these two places and times, in the first hours after charging Oswald with JFK's murder?

Oswald was an FBI informant ... If HOOVER needed to protect that info from coming out...

what do Stripling Junior High School 1954 and Pfisterer Dental 1958 have in common? What was so important in Oswald's past that HOOVER needed to keep info from 1954 hidden?

Yes, HARVEY ... and it's too bad you aren't "into" that scenario Thomas. It remains the only plausible answer to many. many questions (i.e. why does HOOVER need to send agents to Stripling Jr High in Ft Worth and Pfisterer's in NOLA within 12 hours of Oswald being charged with JFK's murder - 11:30pm 11/22 -, and to the Red Cross within days for the 1956-62 original docs... any reason the 7 year old 1956 JR High Records, the 1956-58 employement records and the 1956-62 Red Cross Dependency Discharge records of the 1963 accused assassin would be of ANY VALUE to the prosecution? Have you EVER seen a letter TO Oswald in RUSSIA from his mother or brother? He has 1956 W-2's but not the stack of letters from his mother and brother....)

I'd suggest reviewing CE1961(military records of Oswald in the USMC) followed by the FELDE statement in ce1962.... which contradicts the Marine's info... or the handwritten notes by HARVEY upon his return to the USA detailiing where he was and when... they agree with FELDE and NOT the LEE history we get in the USMC docs...

One of the greatest failings imo of our research community is that we KNOW the FBI created/altered/destroyed evidence... yet we have trouble believing that Hoover was aware of these two men and knew exactly where to go to make their original records disappear (from 5-10 years before, NYC was 1952). Add to this the pile of evidence from every corner of the world and from each and every year of his existence that supports there being 2 men who became 1 set of historical documents .... and you have one of the most important safeguards that we'd NEVER know who LHO was...

You think Hoover made sure to confiscate James Earl Ray's Jr High School records on the day following the killing? What could possbily prompt Hoover to do this in Oswald's case ??

===============

With regards to the timing of the tramp photos....

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

According to these statements the amount of time between the shots and the moving of these men thru DP was not almost 2 hours.... but instead not very long after the assassination.

I've looked at the shadows in other images and the ones in the tramps photos actaully do appear to be only slightly longer in relation to the subject's body.

If you have better info on time stamping the photos... please share...

At this point in time I think LEE is preparing to assist or actually do the shooting in the killing of TIPPIT... LEE, the bigger man, MAY have been the owner of the medium sized jacket that was left to be found....... but that's just a thought. LEE had already left when this photo of HARVEY - if it is - was taken. I believe it was taken around 12:40-12:50. please correct me if I'm wrong.

All this is speculation anyway... for if it was much later, that couldn't be HARVEY... the man arrested at the theater.

DJ

Much appreciated Thomas.... and this by default helps to support Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald near the front entrance shortly before the motorcade arrived...

Which also helps support the notion that MRS REID sees LEE and not HARVEY... leaving the TSBD....

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

One of the three tramps photos shows what appears to be OSWALD near the entrance of the TSBD talking to a policeman(?) he is in long sleeves (far right)

I happen to believe the lunchroom scene NEVER OCCURRED and was created by Truly/Baker and Fritz to negate Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald right about the time of the shooting.

The very FIRST LINE of the FIRST PAGE OF FRITZ's NOTES starts off with

"claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in"

Who starts off by writing on the RIGHT HAND SIDE of a page and working back to the left? And don't you suppose OSWALD would know it was TRULY who was with the "off" who came in? No mention of that at all...

Not sure at all which question this is an answer to, if it was made up, or what order the questions where asked.....

Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

Simple question DVP - almost twice as much evidence comes BACK from the FBI then was sent to the FBI..

Each item of EVIDENCE that belonged to OSwald was initialed and photographed IN DALLAS before sent to DC the night of the 22nd.

There is evidence given to the FBI on the 26th WITHOUT the DPD initials - and items NOT LISTED on DPD inventories, yet was returned from the FBI...? as we see, ALLEN DULLES felt it necessary to rewrite Cadigan's testimony - the man that fingerprint tested and desilvered HUNDREDS of items that weekend while there is only one page of "inventory from Dallas" which Drain signed... Good trick turning what looks like a handful of items into HUNDREDS.

Drain signed Inv sheet 11176-G on the 22nd. Lt. DAY writes in his report that Drain and the FBI took ALL the evidence... that the CSSS collected.... except for the one 6.5mm hull Fritz keeps, LHO billfold with 16 pix, and a notebook from Beckley he had since the 22nd..... ooops.

The OSWALD PERSONAL PROPERTY EVIDENCE is - in very large part - FABRICATED BY THE FBI over the weekend following the assassination... when and if DVP can authenticate any single piece of evidence we can go from there...

In the meantime... he argues conclusions based on inauthentic evidence and tautological statements ... a pure WCR apologist at his best...

So one wonders if the cartridges Fritz picks up to show to Alyea are the same ones in evidence (or were ever there when they arrived at that corner) considering this FBI report from 11/23 stating that somehow 3 spent cartridges by the window does not constitute "physical evidence" along with a paper bag, boxes with potential prints, the movement of boxes AFTER the shots...

from this summary there was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL on the "sixth" floor at least...