David Josephs

In the spirit of fun... and a bit of skepticism...

and to follow on what Blair commented upon - more Badgeman shadow and leaves and light

HERE is the kneeling 2nd shooter on the GK.... from the infamous Midget assassination division of the CIA (MAD)

cleverly disguised as part of a bush

much like badgeman... when you see this area of moorman without the enhancement, you be able to make this "person" out...

Hopefully this 2nd movie has more substance

DJ

Agreed...

And rather than reread the entire thread to find it... a Coke bottle was also found in that deep corner on/by the steps....yes?

I personally think the Lunchroom scene with Baker/Truly never happened... and if it was not Oswald who they run into on the stairs - anyone care to venture a guess as to WHO that was and whether Baker's affidavit was also a PLANT given the generic description he gives... this "man who works here" as described by Truly could have been anyone except Dougherty coming down as he was a huge man.

"...a white man. ...30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket"

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.
Mr. BELIN. About what weight?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

And then we have more of the most supressed testimony we have, that of Carolyn Arnold...

her FBI statement and why she was never called to testify.

One also has to decide if we believe OSWALD was actually on the bus or in Whaley's cab. John Armstrong who has held the bus transfer in his hands tells me it was indeed folded and creased given the struggle at the theater while that transfer was supposedly in his pocket... couple problems with that as well...

This is the transfer as shown in the WCR... see any folds or creases?

and then the book from which it supposedly came.... each of these BLANK TRANSFERS is stamped with the date it's good and the sequential number... the note says "receipt from the book of transfers..." so this receipt (complete with the "Shopper transfer" still attached suggests it came from the book and was removed at the staple.... AFTER the transfer supposedly given to Oswald. There are no clip-outs in this one so we know it was never used.

While not conclusive it does suggest very highly that the transfer #4459 was created after the fact. (one is to remember that along with the transfer was an Aug 1960 American Bakeries pay voucher for the person who lived at NEELY at that time, found by the FBI AT NEELY and taken by them, yet finds it way into "evidence removed from Oswald's person at DPD" )

and whether this is the same person we now call Prayer Man... the man who walks past REID is only in a T-shirt

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Could someone please remind me which image supposedly has the OSWALD figure coming down from the TSBD and is under the sign... maybe I can relate the two visually

DJ

Back to the topic (I needed to go back to post #1 to even figure out what we were talking about...)

I tried a few things to bring out more of the detail... The pixelation makes this person look wider than he is

He also appears to be wearing a short sleeve shirt, or something multi-colored folded up...

DJ

Thank you Marian - well written and well spoken....

Your father's was one of the first 3 books I purchased and read as I wanted to read the POV from as early a moment as possible... your father's was about as early as it got.

The bogeyman: Fascism, Communism and now Terrorism will always be a crutch onwhich those desiring the Status Quo will lean when those upsetting the Quo emerge.

That more planetary harm has been done in the name of DEMOCRACY (subtext Capitalism) than any other ideology is well understood...

While the nuances of these diverse ideologies are lost on most of the sheeple here in the US.

What most USAmericans fail to realize is the abject FEAR the USA/CIA put into the hearts of nations and their people from the early 50's on.

and how much the LEGEND of the USA has eclipsed the reality...

Why would any nation or people on the planet trust US ?

Copper particles on the holes in the BACK of the jacket and BACK of the shirt and in the hole in the back at T3

Nothing on the front of the shirt since the hole was ABOVE the tie and button, not beneath it.

We have OConnor telling us about a bullet removed from the intercostal muscles on the right side...

Belmot tells Tolson about a bullet lodged behind JFK's ear.

Either the cause of the shot was removed (the reason 2-3cms becomes 7-8 and ragged) or it melted... (that CIA backed assassins MIGHT use new technologies is really not so far fetched)

If a flechette - getting it out enroute was a necessity - and backs Lifton's notion that the body HAD to have been removed from the casket before being secured in the back of the plane.

The FBI did not believe in the SBT... until they had to account for everything with only 2 shots...

David - with all the BS explanations why not just state that a fragment cause the Tague problem and leave it at 3 shots 3 hits per the FBI... ??

and they STILL place a shot at Z375 for some reason... about 45 feet further down Elm.

There are times like these where CLARITY PREVAILS.... and remains so simple anyone can understand it.

It's akin to being told the sky is red, regardless of what your lying eyes tell you...

DJ

Doesn't THIS make the case pretty simple?

The bullet ROSE at 11 degrees from back to front IF it has to exit that hole in the neck (which of course if did not and could not)

Gerald Ford helps us to understand the problem... the bullet hole is in the wrong place.... {the crowd murmurs with shock and awe}

I happen to agree with Cliff here... we can get all scientific about it as Dr. M has so successfully done... but Vince was right: the coat, shirt and bullet hole gives the entire thing away...

Just ask Arlen about those holes:

The Warren Commission, The Truth, and Arlen Specter

By Gaeton Fonzi
Greater Philadelphia Magazine, 1 August 1966

<snip>

“Well,” said Specter, when asked about this in his City Hall office last month, “that difference is accounted for because the President was waving his arm.” He got up from his desk and attempted to have his explanation demonstrated. “Wave your arm a few times, he said, “wave at the crowd. Well, see if the bullet goes in here, the jacket gets hunched up. If you take this point right here and then you strip the coat down, it comes out at a lower point. Well, not too much lower on your example, but the jacket rides up.”
If the jacket were “hunched up,” wouldn’t there have been two holes as a result of the doubling over of the cloth?
“No, not necessarily. It…it wouldn’t be doubled over. When you sit in the car it could be doubled over at most any point, but the probabilities are that…aaah…that it gets…that…aaah…this…this is about the way a jacket rides up. You sit back…sit back now…all right now…if…usually, as your jacket lies there, the doubling up is right here, but if…but if you have a bullet hit you right about here, which is where I had it, where your jacket sits…it’s not…it’s not…it ordinarily doesn’t crease that far back.”
What about the shirt?
“Same thing.”
So there is no real inconsistency between the Commission’s location of the wound and the holes in the clothing?
“No, not at all. That gave us a lot of concern. First time we lined up the shirt…after all, we lined up the shirt…and the hole in the shirt is right about, right about the knot of the tie, came right about here in a slit in the front…”
But where did it go in the back?
“Well, the back hole, when the shirt is laid down, comes…aaah…well, I forget exactly where it came, but it certainly wasn’t higher, enough higher to…aaah…understand the…aah…the angle of decline which…”
Was it lower? Was it lower than the slit in the front?
“Well, I think that…that if you took the shirt without allowing for it’s being pulled up, that it would either have been in line or somewhat lower.”
Somewhat lower?
“Perhaps. I…I don’t want to say because I don’t really remember. I got to take a look at that shirt.”

Unless JFK was tying his shoes - really fast while behind the sign - the SBT has been and will always be a fabrication...

or Check out WCD298 so the FBI can also explain it - with visual aids.

I'm working on some different options - yet if you look closely, that "raised arm" seems to NOT be connected to anything....

Yet I know that light and angles can make things look very different from what they are...

I will post what I can figure out

DJ

Not that I've seen Bob.... if so, he did an disappearing act with his hand and fingers.....

Also curious the distinction between Lovelady's pants and the man in the suit...

Download the image and try out a few options... I've tried, I've blown this up to 10 times the size to see if there are any clues...

Here is the same image without Lovelady colorized... sure LOOKS like his arm... but that's not possible

Hoax or not... the most intriguing thing to me is that the 133-C image, which was not discovered until just prior to the HSCA, is the SAME POSE as the ghost images that were superimposed onto at least two different backgrounds...

Since the image was not known, how is it that they were able to do a ghost pattern that exactly matched THAT image yet did not match the two known images in evidence unless they were made all at the same time ??

here is the Roscoe beach image on the BYP...

And here is a DPD photocopy of the ghosted BYP as well as a side by side with the original. Neither of these use the backgrounds of the BYPs 133-A or B (no foliage on the steps)

WHERE did they get the pattern for the cutout? and what's the deal with the dropshadow on the DPD photocopy of yet another version the image

DJ

Maybe this can shed some light....

The one area I did not colorize is the area that confuses me the most...

That arm SEEMS to belong to Lovelady yet is crossing in FRONT of the black man who is standing at least a few feet to his right.

Can anyone offer a color for that area that makes sense... and there is any chance "prayer man" is somehow captured there?

btw - the rectangular images can only come from the MINOX... a camera he should not have had access to, and was the subject of the FBI's story that they never rec'd it.

DJ

Photos

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10877&relPageId=27

Description

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10877&relPageId=4

Do those photos say "May 56" ?? or ??

Thank you Larry....

CONTEXT being the real key to the evidence...

Every item has a backstory and one that carries it forward... which interconnects with other individual ITEMS until context is revealed....

Nagell claims to have been tasked with killing Oswald prior to the assassination to STOP the assassination from happening...

Larry,

Was he supposed to kill LEE or HARVEY ??

Did he even know about a LEE and HARVEY ?

And finally, why is he carrying a fake DoD ID for Oswald...

Context....

DJ

do LN'rs think the Z film is altered?

that's nuts.

You lost me after "Do LNers think......" all indications so far point to "no"

DJ

In Vinces thread on Sam Kinney, the ex- SS agent states there was blood and brains all over the windshield of "Lucy", the followup car. More evidence of a shot from the front. LN'ers will argue that Lucy drove through the cloud of gore that's been removed from the extant Zapruder film, of course.

Not sure what this has to do with Oswald leaving the TSBD but....

Boring says the same thing, then recants.... he describes a piece of bone found in the follow-up car... then claims he never said any of it....

Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?

Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

I have yet to find an image of the limo which shows anything close to this condition... especially the HOOD. so IDK, just thought I'd mention it

DJ

Related to your comment about shutting DP down... items like the HARPER FRAGMENT, the manhole cover bullet, the TAGUE mark, and the other marks on the surfaces of DP could have been correctly investigated.

My point with the diagram is that even after alteration, Boswell describes the results of a shot from the front...

Each bit of evidence provided within the WCR builds the case for conpsiracy... even when they thought they were covering it up...

The physical evidence remains the fraud, while the witness testimonies shed light on what actually occurred...

Sorry for the confusion

DJ

One last comment...

The HARPER FRAGMENT was not found until after 5pm on the 23rd....

For over 24 hours that piece supposedly just sat there, undiscovered....

Yet we are to believe that a piece of Occipital Bone flew FORWARD as a result of the rear shot and lands in front of and to the south of the limo...

to be FOUND a day later... and then disappear.

As hard as they tried, HARPER could not be fit to the front of JFK's head.... while the description by Boswell gives away the charade

...

and just a question, why was this Rambler allowed to just "drive off"?

Blair,

below is how Craig described it:

David Belin: All right. And then what did you see happen?

Roger Craig: I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston... actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.... And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And... the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the... traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And they were gone before I could...

It was so heavy yet MOVING at a brisk enough pace that a detective could not hold up a badge and STOP TRAFFIC ?

In the MURRAY/ALLEN photos we see people moving across ELM... wasn't Oswald supposedly spotted under the freeway sign in one of the Murray shots?

At no time does it appear that people cannot get across ELM... nor is there anyone stopping traffic on ELM in from t of the TSBD.. so ??

Richard.... Ghosts in the Machine... :-)

Thanks for keeping an open mind Blair... I've doing a page-by-page run thru of H&L as I prepare to create a "cliff notes spreadsheet" version of H&L that focuses on the timing conflicts throughout his life...

Here is but one example of the MACS-9 location for HARVEY while LEE is at MAG-3... just up the road a bit. The record of those stationed with HARVEY versus LEE leaves no room for questions about there bing two different people... one a communist talking, small pain in the butt, and another the taller, AMERICAN who goes to Japan and gets an STD "on the job".

This does NOT include those that impersonated either Oswald to create even more confusion... (Read Oswald in Alice TX)

DJ

1959 3/15 :

HARVEY in the "LIGHTER THAN AIR STATION" at Santa Ana while GRAF tells FBI Agent Ely that the LHO he was with was NEVER at MCAF MACS-9 / MCAF Santa Ana CA

LEE

MAG-3 El Toro, CA Allen D. Graf was transferred from North Carolina to El Toro, CA in the spring of 1959.21 He told FBI Agent Birl Wilson that he was Oswald's Platoon Sergeant for 6-8 months at Marine Air Control Group 3 (MAG 3) in El Toro. Graf remembers LEE as a VERY GOOD MARKSMAN with a score of 229, NOT 191.... and DISAGREES with the FBI report attributed to him.

The person walking past Mrs Reid is NOT Harvey who was wearing the reddish-brown Briarloom button down collared shirt... which turns into the ARREST SHIRT as told by Whaley WITH a jacket matching his pants on top of that...

How are these the same people?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

thanks Richard, I am asking because I am trying to nail down the exact time the description of the "suspect" went out and why.

there is one story that it was after Oswald was missing in the head count and one that someone saw someone get into a rambler...

( no effort of course was made to stop the rambler...interesting that...)

so I am stuck in that little time macro...

Blair,

at 12:45 the police dispatcher broadcasts a description of an unknown white male, approximately thirty, slender build, height five feet ten inches, weight one hundred sixty-five pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a 30 caliber rifle.

There has been a good deal of speculation where that description originally could have come from.

Only a couple minutes earlier, Deputy Roger Craig, standing on the other side of Elm Street, saw a white male 140-150 pounds, brown hair, in his 20’s, white T shirt run down the slope and get into a Rambler Station Wagon.

A very interesting and problematic time macro ...

Richard...

Being a little picky here but CRAIG did not put the white T-Shirt on the Oswald looking character getting into the Rambler, but the man in Fritz's office:

As one gets deeper into the Harvey and Lee reality, I believe we can find that these two going their seperate ways after the fact can account for the sightings and feeds back into the conspiracy which sets HARVEY up for the shooting.

Not the ONLY theory, but one that does explain quite a few "macro" loose ends...

Cheers

DJ

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--

Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.

And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Mr. BELIN - All right.

Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

Exactly Bob... while making those "POW POW POW" noises with his mouth...

Williams/Jarman/Norman also heard him go, "Click-click....tink-poing-clink... POW"

Now they have to go back and draw in the blind laying next to the dotted line that was the bag... {snicker}

DJ

look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

I've always wondered what is keeping the bag upright in that photo.

I asked the same thing of GMACK who sent me this quote from Montgomery's oral history: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17096

Sounds like CYA to me.... yet I don't think a rifle of 7+ lbs or so would be as easy to hold as that... yet this blowup shows he is definitely holding SOMETHING

yet when found it was folded doens to a rectangle with nothing in it....

So HOW does it get into this picture (read below) ??

David,

The Museum never got an oral history from Sawyer, unfortunately, but here’s what L.D. Montgomery said on 11-25-2002. Please note that his memory of the event was very hazy and I’m not at all confident he was accurate:

L.D.: It must just have been a little… it seems like that paper, seems like it was a little stiff paper. I’m trying to think and trying to remember. Was there anything in it?

Gary: That was my next question.

L.D.: That’s what I was thinking. Was there a little piece of that white Venetian blind that was in there? That might’ve been what was holding it up. Because you know, he told ‘em that was a Venetian blind, but he had the rifle in there. But he may have had a little piece of that… you know, a long piece of that Venetian blind in there. That’s what I was thinking. Maybe that’s what it was that was in there, and that’s why it held that up.

Gary: You don’t remember looking inside?

L.D.: (nodding) Oh yeah, I remember looking inside. That’s why I was thinking. I was thinking that I remembered now that there was a piece of that in there. Uh-huh.

=================

Mr. BALL. You found the sack in the area marked 2 on Exhibit J to the Studebaker deposition. Did you pick the sack up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?

Mr. BALL. The paper sack?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?

Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You picked it up?

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; other than like I said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. In other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in.

That is why, the reason we saved it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?

Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?

Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. I think I still have that sack and bottle down there. The chicken bones, I finally threw them away that laid around there. In my talking to the men who were working on that floor, November 25, they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there.

Mr. McCLOY. Someone other than Oswald?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; so I discarded it, or disconnected it with being with Oswald. Incidentally, Oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. I checked that.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inside the bag, if you know, when you found it?

Mr. DAY. I did not open the bag. I did not look inside of the bag at all.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it?

Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?

Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.

Mr. BELIN. By this you are referring to the bag itself?

Mr. DAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken from the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. HICKS. Paper bag?

Mr. BALL. Paper bag.

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I did not. It seems like there was some chicken bones or maybe a lunch; no, I believe that someone had gathered it up.

Mr. BALL. Well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; did you ever see it?

Mr. HICKS. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I don't recall it.

Mr. BALL. I believe that's all, Mr. Hicks.

Mr. HICKS. All right.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled - it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Indeed Evan... one of DPD's finest was supposed to have made a list of everyone in the theater at the time... a list that has disappeared of course....

The story of the two Bentley's at the theater - neither called to testify before the commission

http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/OverlookedTheaterWitness_Page2.html

C. F. was driving south on Zangs Boulevard and had just turned east on West Jefferson Boulevard when a call came over the police radio saying that an unknown subject had entered the basement of the Oakland Public Library at the intersection of East Jefferson Boulevard and Marsalis Avenue. C. F. proceeded to the library along with several other squads that were available. The officers got out of their patrol cars, searched the building, and found out that the suspect in question was an employee of the library.

All the officers re-entered their patrol cars and left the scene. C. F. began driving west on East Jefferson Boulevard. He was then sitting at a red light at the intersection of Zangs Boulevard and East Jefferson Boulevard. When the light turned green he traveled approximately 20 yards past the intersection when another police radio dispatch was broadcast that a suspect had entered the Texas Theater and was in the balcony. C. F. was almost directly in front of the Texas Theater at the time of this broadcast, and so he pulled into the first parking spot in front of the theater. He was the first squad to arrive there and as he got out of his car another arrived right after him. C. F. entered the front door of the theater with his shotgun and was told by a theater employee that the suspect had gone to the balcony.

By this time there was another police officer beside him (name unrecalled) and they both went up the stairs to the balcony. As far as he could see there were 3 to 5 people in the balcony at that time, and he could hear voices saying turn up the house lights, but unfortunately the house lights were already on and it was still very difficult to see. At this time C. F.’s uncle Paul and another detective arrived in the balcony. Paul told C. F. to search everyone in the balcony and to get their names. Just as C. F. began to do this someone downstairs hollered, “The son of a bitch is downstairs!”

All the officers turned and exited the balcony, ran down the stairs and turned left into the theater. As C. F. entered the seating area he could see an officer wrestling with a white male who had a pistol in his hand. As he approached Paul Bentley was off to his left. When they reached the two men who were fighting C. F. hit Lee Oswald in the face with a vertical butt stroke of his shotgun. Paul Bentley then punched Lee tearing some of the skin off Lee’s forehead with the Masonic ring that Paul wore on his hand. At this point several additional officers grabbed Lee and then C. F. heard someone shout, “I got his gun!”

At this point the officers were able to get Lee under control and while they were handcuffing him C. F. pulled away from the scuffle. As Paul Bentley and other officers were removing the suspect from the front door of the theater C. F. went out with them. The officers then put the suspect in an unmarked police car and departed the scene. C. F. also left the scene, returned to the Southwest Substation, turned in the police car and shotgun, and returned home.

and FORD should know....

Can we PLEASE stop talking as if CE399 was ever in Dallas... it was not... unless someone can provide ANY EVIDENCE to that effect.

CE399 was fired either into water or cotton and given to Frazier by Todd....

Where did TODD get it?

Rowley cannot ID the bullet as the one he got from Johnson, Johnson cannot ID the bullet as the one he GAVE to Rowley...

It was not at Parkland, it was NOT in Tomliinsons's hands, NOT with Wright, NOT with Johnson, NOT the one given to Rowley by Johnson...

and NOT the bullet Rowley gives Todd.... yet IS the bullet Todd and Frazier's team initials... and IS the bullet that required no cleaning

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.
Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet.

Are we also aware that the WCR tells us in order for fragments to have been left in JC at all, these fragments could ONLY come from the rear of the bullet..... which in turn means it would have to come in contact (the rear of the bullet) with these surfaces to have left anything...

My understanding of the wrist injury is that that injury would actually cause the hand to clinch and stay clenched... not fly open... THAT is why JC holds his hat thru the entire thing... they had to pry it from his hands...

I am sorry I don't have a source at my fingertips... but know I looked into it a while back... in most cases traumatic injury casues the contraction of muscles not the expansion or opening of them...

On the flip side... has there been any corroboration that the injury would cause him to open his hand ??

Robert - I've checked the testimonies of Mr and Mrs, and the nurses who brought him in... no mention of the hat....

When the time finally arrives when the JFK community finally accepts that NONE OF THE EVIDENCE OFFERED IS ACCURATE we can stop pretending to fit the square peg in the round holes.

one last time for those who missed it: this is much worse than the Katzen bach memo... this is AFTER they have already collected quite a lot of info...

Needless to say, the FBI reports are taken basically verbatim and becomes the core of the WCR... and the SS report is just a joke.

April 27, 1964

MEMORANDUM

TO: J. Lee Rankin

FROM: Norman Redlich

<snip>

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

I had always assumed that our final report would be

accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the

approximate location of the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare

such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an

occurrence which is physically possible. Our failure to do this will,

in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty

that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same

questions which have been raised by our examination of the films. If

we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer

them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with

fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions

by the investigatory methods available to us.

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.