David Josephs

Couple of things Richard...

The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes...

Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different.

I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish.

Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos?

That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true.

DJ

Gene Kelly wrote:

Richard: I'm inclined to agree with Bjorn that there were no real assasins in the TSBD that day. Surely some plotters intentionally being seen at the window, and perhaps even someone firing a gun from another spot in the building - all as diversionary tactics - but not the real shooters. The idea that a trained sniper (and his handlers, spotters, break-down man, etc.) would risk being in the same building where all of the evidence is being planted and overt attention is being drawn to doesn't fit with the elaborate nature of this plot.

Gene,

If any shots were fired from the upper floors of the TSBD, my argument would be a shooter in a West facing window (facing the triple underpass).

There are several hints this may have been the case:

- Virtually none of the hundreds of people in front of the TSBD looked up as one would expect if rifle fire was directly above them.

- a shot(s) from a West window would echo off the triple underpass marking that area as a possible source. A West window shooter combined with a shooter behind the fence are compatible with the crowd reaction of running up the knoll after the shots.

- The trajectory of Connally's wounds better fit a shot from that location then other locations that have been suggested.

I agree with you and others who feel the Rifle men and associates in the upper floor windows were showing themselves as a diversion.

Here Richard... it does appear as if the 6th floor WEST facing window is open prior to our three guys opening the west window on the 5th... or so they say (the 5th floor windows are open at 12:40)

and we do have the man in Dillard in the far WEST 6th floor window...

Re the echo.... as I had posted at some point, the openess of the overpass area is not a good echo creator as opposed to the building up at ELM/HOUSTON... a shot from down by the overpass WOULD echo off buildings and could appear as a shot from up there... I don't think it works the same way in reverse... Holland was very sure between the first shots from UP by the corner of Elm/Houston and the shot that was fired from the GK fence....

The idea that UNKNOWN and ASSISTED assassins shooting from and planting evidence in the TSBD and just walking out is not something to be considered becasue "it makes no sense" or is not understood by those of us who were not in on the plot... seems to me dismissing one of the most obvious and easiest ways to leave the TSBD.

Mr. BALL - Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?

Mr. MOONEY - I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department,

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

As mentioned on another thread/post... does it not make sense if MOONEY's ASSOCIATES - plainclothes officers - are coming down from where Mooney was rushing to, he would talk to these deputy sheriffs? WHO are they, WHEN/HOW did they get into the building so fast...

I am not saying these people coming down were necessarily sinister... but the idea of just leaving thru the front or back door with SS/FBI credentials is really not that far-fetched.

When the FIX is in and you are on the FIXED side... confidence and arrogance go a long way. HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT...

DJ

What I find most interesting is that any one of us is tasked with describing the picture of a 1000 piece puzzle yet when we open the box and dump all the pieces we find we only have 150 of them and nothing about the 150 suggests they came from the original box...

And then we all stand around and describe the picture we see...

Boggles the mind that 50 years hence serious and intelligent people cannot even agree on the extent of the wounds... while spending time arguing conspiracy or not with those who have not even bothered to open the box.

Pat - I don't know what to base the conclusion that at least two bullets found their mark with JFK's head... when the evidence from DALLAS suggests only one, the evidence from Parkland suggests only ONE.

There is little to nothing of evidentiary value in the WCR related to how JFK was killed. The Zfilm does not match the recollections of those there (the evenly spaced shots).. there is no explanation for the missed shots, or even the "1st" shot, while suggesting as strongly as possible the SBT is supportable....

You "photographic analogy" holds no water Pat... when you learn that the images from the traffic camera have no chain of evidence and holds none of its original identifying marks... how do you equate that film to that day's events? There is no 0183 on the Zfilm... none. Even Zavada can't get around that... there is nothing on the extent film which proves it's original... there's nothing on the xrays that proves they are original, infact they prove they are NOT originals but altered copies...

and THIS is what intelligent people discuss to determine the picture? The NIX and MUCHMORE films prove he was shot from the front... which is why THEY are not the focus of media attention... only the ZFILM is... how convenient.

That a trail of particles - tiny particle - is left in the head indicates that bullet could NOT have been FMJ and NOT fired from the rear. There is simply no way fragments migrate UPWARD against gravity and leave a trail from NO OPENING to and obvious one at the man's temple... these are the fragments HUMES/BOSEWELL could not remove prior to 8pm... but had so mutilated the skull from 6:45-7:45 that is would NEVER serve as authenitc evidence.

So we are left with DALLAS descriptions and Bethesda Alteration... we have multiple "front - right" witnesses and evidence...

It is possible that we misinterpret the arms up and "hands to throat" movement as THROAT related rather than having a bullet wedged in his upper back at the time...

We have O'Connor telling us of the bullet found and removed from the right rear of the president.

WE do NOT have reliable evidence about what happened related to the throat wound and it's path thru the body... a small exploding round COULD have done the lower right rear damage while the front right temple shot pops open more of the bones... yet that requires we believe the BETHESDA wounds are the same as the DALLAS ones... and that is simply not possible given the AUTOPSY description of the wounds AFTER 8pm.

The fragmenting of the FRONTAL right temple shot could also have created the right rear blowout yet we do not find any particles leading DOWN to the right rear... this would be the main reason for switching the brain and being deceptive with the xrays...

Pat - you still neglected to tell us which witnesses from DP that day stated they saw the FRONT of his head open as seen in the lateral forged xray... (You've read Ebersole's testimonies right? The man came back in the middle of the night to produce MORE xrays... IMO Ebersole is in the same position as HUMES and assists by creating completely fraudulent xrays...

At the end of the day, does it really matter? the evidence highly suggests a shooter to the right front of JFK.. the results of the assassination, recorded for history, is part of the cover-up.... and as Redlich states:

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

So why do you use this information in forming your arguments and conclusions rather than the independent studies and non-government recording of witness testimony?

I've addressed all your points, Robert. Let's see if you can address mine.

1. Do you think the film and autopsy evidence suggests more than one shooter?

2. If yes, well then why would "they" fake this evidence to suggest more than one shooter?

3. If no, well then please explain which take on the medical evidence you think suggests there was but one shooter, the autopsy report, or the report of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel?

4. Why do you think the Newmans, Zapruder, and Burkley thought the wound was by the temple? I mean what are the odds that the recollections of the wound location by not one, not two, not three, but FOUR witnesses would be recorded before the Parkland witnesses uttered a peep about the wound location, or wrote down a word, and that they all would by some amazing coincidence confirm the location of the wound in the Zapruder film, autopsy photos, and x-rays--which you claim are fakes? I mean, really, what are the odds?

The Zapruder film alteration theory is one unintended casualty in this thread. Mr. Ward already stated that his views on film alteration have "evolved", when confronted about the fact that McClelland credits the film for his transformation from a "lone nut" theory supporter to a conspiracy theorist. Prudhomme needs some time to make the case for alteration without undermining McClelland's credibility. Please give him time.

1. The ONLY thing the film and autopsy evidence reveals is a conspiracy to cover-up the actual wounds and results... there is NOTHING of evidentiary value in determining what occurred in DP on those films that can be stated definitively.

2. n/a

3. Got to leave that to Robert... didn't realize he thought there was only one shooter - is that actually the case?

4. Because he was shot in the right temple... it's the ONLY thing that explains the trail of particles left which could not be removed by HUMES before 8pm

If you can Pat - please explain how either the WCR or HSCA entry points leaves a trail of particles ABOVE the path of the bullet when - if shot from the front and hitting the right temple you have a perfectly logicaly explanation for them..

Thanks Pat

DJ

Do you completely discount Hill and Kellerman's testimony along with Bowron and everyone else at Parkland who only see a large hole at the back of his head?

And maybe also explain how both the very TOP and very BOTTOm of the brain is virtually surgically cut by this ONE bullet leaving debris as far from the base of the brain as is possible..

I've addressed all your points, Robert. Let's see if you can address mine.

1. Do you think the film and autopsy evidence suggests more than one shooter?

2. If yes, well then why would "they" fake this evidence to suggest more than one shooter?

3. If no, well then please explain which take on the medical evidence you think suggests there was but one shooter, the autopsy report, or the report of the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel?

4. Why do you think the Newmans, Zapruder, and Burkley thought the wound was by the temple? I mean what are the odds that the recollections of the wound location by not one, not two, not three, but FOUR witnesses would be recorded before the Parkland witnesses uttered a peep about the wound location, or wrote down a word, and that they all would by some amazing coincidence confirm the location of the wound in the Zapruder film, autopsy photos, and x-rays--which you claim are fakes? I mean, really, what are the odds?

The Zapruder film alteration theory is one unintended casualty in this thread. Mr. Ward already stated that his views on film alteration have "evolved", when confronted about the fact that McClelland credits the film for his transformation from a "lone nut" theory supporter to a conspiracy theorist. Prudhomme needs some time to make the case for alteration without undermining McClelland's credibility. Please give him time.

Perhaps you would like to show me, in Dr. Clark's WC Testimony, where Dr. Clark testifies that the large, gaping wound he saw in JFK's head (tangential or exit or otherwise) was anywhere but the right rear of JFK's head.

Pat Speer seems unwilling or incapable of performing this simple task. Perhaps you can do this for me?

Dr. CLARK - The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted. in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube . I then examined the President briefly.

My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation.

I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.

<snip>

Dr. CLARK - All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort.

Mr. SPECTER - And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference?

Dr. CLARK - He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head.

This comment has to do with the bullet ENTERING the throat and EXITING out the back/top of the head... It was a REPORTER'S question on what MIGHT have happened...

Since nothing was done to examine the neck or back wounds it is indeed very possible that the throat wound along with the right temple shot - but that it was from the throat wound that the lower back of JFK's head is blown out.

Yet good old Arlen wants to make sure it's in the record... the word "TOP" appears only twice, once here when describing the course of the throat shot FROM THE FRONT

and the other is this:

Mr. SPECTER - Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head?

Dr. CLARK - No, sir; I did not.

No sir, he did NOT say anything about the TOP of the head... and when it comes right down to it... who else really matters? who else was close enough to the head wound in DALLAS and saw it clearly who says it was at the TOP of the head

Hill?

Bowron?

McClelland?

PAT - is there anyone anywhere from Dallas who testifies to ANYTHING resembling the forged lateral xray? ie "I saw the entire top, front of his skull open up"

If you were to read the autopsy results - again - we find Humes describing the complete laceration of the TOP fo the brain matter attached to the TOP of the skull

along with the laceration of an area just above th base of the brain stem and top of the spinal column... in other words this one bullet supposedly created all the correct incisions for a craniotomy... destroying most of the RIGHT hemisphere while completely removing the connecting tissue to the skull on the ENTIRE left side, top and base of the brain... now THAT's a magfic bullet!

Clearly visible in the above described large skull defect and exuding

from it is lacerated brain tissue which on close inspection proves to

represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere. At this

point it is noted that the falx cerebri is extensively lacerated with

disruption of the superior saggital sinus

In addition, there is a laceration of the

corpus callosum extending from the genu to the tail. Exposed in this

latter laceration are the interiors of the right lateral and third

ventricles.

Intersting that Boswell put NOTHING on the frontal view of the Face on the Descriptive Sheet... there is simply no way that what Humes/Boswell describes is the condition of JFK at PARKLAND...

The TOP of the head may have ultimately been removed, but not by the shots in DP, but at the hands of HUMES in Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

Interesting you should state this Andric... the FBI was notorious for creating STRAW MAN docs from the evidence gathered....

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329093

This is the UNSIGNED UNCORRORATED report of the FBI interview with Bonnie Ray Williams stating he was on the 6th floor from 12:00 to 12:03.

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Whereas in reverse, we have the FBI report of McWatters stating that BELIEVES the man he picked up around Poydras/Elm takes the bus to "south of Saner Ave in Oak Cliff"

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=351

"SOUTH OF SANER" is at least 3 miles south of 10th and Patton and 4 miles south of Oswald's room...

Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point.

I am curious though...

WHAT do you think changes in this case if everyone who says the BACK of the head COULD have meant the TOP, the RIGHT REAR, the TOP RIGHT or any other such place Pat would like it to mean?

Are we back at discussion whether the BETHESDA wounds were the same as the PARKLAND wounds - or what?

Thanks

DJ

Yes Robert... I believe he says "IN" an accident.... yet the only other DPD sent to OAK CLIFF was Nelson... and he had disobeyed the order and returned to ELM/HOUSTON without a words notice.

He is then ordered to 4340 W. Davis Street at 1:19, yet there are already a number of DPD cars in the OAK CLIFF area... and 4340 is EAST, as far east ast anyone seems to be going that day...

So WHY send him from ELM/Houston all the way out there unless Dispatch does not hear where he is and sends him anyway??

This accident is 4 miles WEST of 4340 on W. Davis... and now we add Mentzel and Courson to the list.

================

Malcolm:

• There are certainly doubts over why Tippit stopped Oswald (his killer?) initially
• Could Oswald even be at the scene of Tippit's murder at the time of the shooting?
• Why was a fake wallet planted?
• Tippit's actions and behaviour that day were very unusual and never properly investigated by the Warren Commission. See Tippit's timeline for that day.

1 - Unless OSWALD was indeed LEE and not HARVEY... since LEE, Ruby and Tippit were known to have been together... having LEE take care of Tippit (one of the few who was aware of H&L)

and lead the chase to the Texas Theater makes a lot of sense. IMO LEE is walking back from Ruby's place and down a street that TIPPIT had been seen many times before for some reason.

While Markham claims this person walked across PATTON going EAST in the same direction as the police car that soon followed... Scoogins on the other hand sees the police car and then sees it stop by someone heading WEST on 10th.

Is it really probable that Scoggins misses seeing OSWALD walk right past his car just seconds before Tippit arrives from the EAST??

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.
Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?
Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east On east Tenth.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him

So Scoggins tells us he sees TIPPIT every day... interesting. do we have any more info about Scoggins' familiarity with Tippit and that particular area...? Maybe the Gentleman's Club ??

2 - No, IMO HARVEY was taken to the Theater by the same car that honked and was at the theater before 1:10. HARVEY proceeds to move from seat to seat apparently in search of someone.

3 - WESTBROOK - if the analysis is correct - MUST have the wallet with him when he arrives at the scene... Not a soul sees this wallet next to Tippit while he's there or after he is taken away... this realization is terribly important.... it establishes fore knowledge of Oswald, the need to connect Hidell with Oswald with Tippit with the rifle.... (not a single question is asked of Oswald about the Tippit killing other than "did you do it?"

WHY is he even walking there given the information in reports by both Kelley and Fritz about OSWALD claiming to have taken a BUS to his ROOM and a BUS to the THEATER...

Does the following interrogation notes not just SCREAM set-up after the fact? Fritz is literally quoting Oswald - in order to establish that his story changed.... Kelly corroborates as expected. yet are we seeing a problem here with the times and date that needs correcting...

Bookout's report (CE1988) also states that OSWALD said he took a bus to his residence... and remember the cabby's name mix-up at the start...

Whaley's testimony is completely full of it... He tells us 15 times in his first appearance that he went to NECHES and N. BECKLEY.. (Which does not exist) and that he let his fare out at 500 N. Beckley

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley."
Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the uproar?"
And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him.
But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.
Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?
Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley.
Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?
Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.

Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to Washington, approximately?
Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. BELIN. You testified before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped."
Now is that what you told them on that day?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day.
Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not?
Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound Bus Station* * *"
Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man?
Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon.

While Tippit's actions that day are indeed peculiar and important... I believe what he did in the 2-3 weeks prior is even more important in establishing the connections.

I also believe that Roberts is not truthful when describing his being in a jacket when he leaves after changing his clothes... Repeatedly we have the interrogation notes talk about the changing of his clothes but NEVER is there mention of his wearing a jacket, or the discarding of said jacket....

Which, in turn, leads us back to WESTBROOK who is credited with finding the Jacket... yet cannot remember the name of the officer who pointed the jacket out to him, nor do his initials appear on the jacket....

Westbrook (Hill and Sawyer) are seemingly ALWAYS in the right places at the right time to find evidence to incriminate Oswald....

Okay, Mr. Caddy, I take back everything I said about the material you post being trivial.

This is most amazing, the interview with Tippit's father. If what he says is true, this means there would have been two DPD members searching for LHO possibly before LHO was "discovered" missing by Roy Truly. I wonder how difficult it would be to track down which other officer was involved in the accident and to track down how that officer was dispatched.

Are we quite sure this 2nd DPD member was not NELSON in car 87 who decided to go to ELM/HOUSTON instead of where he was assigned?

Here are the only references to an accident occurring. West Davis and 5700 Live Oak are about 8 miles apart in very different areas of Dallas...

Stanglin ??

1:11 Dispatcher: Signal 7, 817 West Davis. 1:11 (Accident)

1:11 45 (Ptm. N.L. Stanglin): There's a minor accident in the 5700 block Live Oak. Do you want me to stay here or answer my call?

1:12 Dispatcher: 45, Signal 9, manager's office, 4916 Live Oak. 1:12. (Theft)

1:15 Dispatcher: Handle the accident. Disregard Live Oak. 1:15

I've always wondered:

Oswald was arrested at 1:40pm, his arrest warrent states he is the murderer of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit.

Between 1:40pm and 11:26pm when he is finally and supposedly formally charged with JFK's murder (although there is quite a bit of confusion regarding his "in-and-out" of the cell at 1:30 am for his arraignment, 2 hours after booking)

The TIPPIT complaint is signed at 7:05 and he is arrainged at 7:10 for TIPPIT murder... Not a single question appears to have been asked about the TIPPIT case to this point...

Is there a single evidenciary question asked about the Tippit murder asked between 1:40pm and 1:30am? It does not appear they cared much about asking or accusing him of the Tippit murder...

Kelley:

I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he

had not. I then asked him If he had shot the President and he said he had wt.

I asked him if he had shot Governor Connally and he said he had not. He did

not intend to answer further questions without counsel and that If he could not

get Abt, then he would hope that the Civil Liberties Union would give him an

attorney to represent him. At that point Captain Fritz terminated the interview

at about 11:30 A.M.. 1-23-63.

144 replies later, nobody in this thread has bothered to discuss the research cited by Speer proving that looking at a human head upside-down (as in the case of any doctor who observed the wound while standing behind JFK's head in Parkland) significantly impairs one's ability to tell the location of features relative to the others. Commenters keep asking Speer why many witnesses placed the head in the occipital region, when they could have easily found out (by reading the website patspeer.com) that Speer explains why he thinks these location estimates were wrong.

Similarly, the findings quoted by Speer proving that people have a symmetry bias (which may explain why some witnesses drew the wound in the exact center of the head) have been quoted by zero people in this thread.

There may be several explanations as to why commenters are ignoring these topics:

1) They didn't read Speer's chapter because they thought it's too long to read.

2) They didn't read Speer's chapter because they thought it was too boring.

3) They are so confident that the location is in the back of the head that they thought, "I don't need to read anything new. I know what happened."

Or a combination of the above.

Simply amazing that anyone can make a case for the people within 0-3 feet of JFK that day (both carrying him from limo to ER and standing at the table - these are Actual ER DOCTORS and NURSES who have actually dealt with gunshot wounds stating this - as opposed to a couple desk jockies with their bosses' bosses' boss standing over them telling them what to do, say, cut, look at, NOT cut, NOT to move or touch.....)

And then to use "cognitive psychology"

What exactly is the POINT here ?

To use ANYTHING we can find to claim those that saw what they saw in DALLAS, were wrong?

That their drawings are wrong

Their statements are wrong

Their photos are wrong....

Pat wrote:

This led me to wonder if the Parkland witnesses weren't mistaken.

I spent several months reading books on cognitive psychology, and communicating with cognitive psychologists.

This led me to conclude that viewing Kennedy while he was on his back had confused a few of the Parkland doctors as to the exact location of his head wound, and that the others--most prominently McClelland--latched onto what those doctors had reported, and made their recollections their own. In other words, I believe they saw a big hole in the middle of some brain-soaked hair, but were unclear where this wound was on Kennedy's head, and that some of them recalled it was behind the ear, and took from this that it was on the back of Kennedy's head, without realizing that "behind his ear" when Kennedy was lying on his back meant top of the head

Mrs Bowron met JFK at the limo and helped him onto the stretcher... His head was NOT laying on a table, She was Not looking at him upside down

Same thing with CLINT HILL... Both are witnesses to JFK's wounds and have nothing at all to do with "cognitive psychology" or him laying on an ER table...

Yet, I guess if one can use forged and fraudulent physical evidence to come to ironclad conclusions rather than the corroborated recollection of those who actually came in contact with the man at the time...

you too can have your own chapter in the WCR charade.

For someone who has done the JFK community so well over the years - to have this discussion over the PARKLAND people being wrong about the headwound seems at least to me as you taking 10 years and 20 steps off your analysis.

Pat - so Bowron and Hill were also wrong? The NURSE does not know the difference between the BACK and TOP of the head ??? and the SS agent has no clue either.

You next going to prove how CE339 exited JFK's throat and got to Rowley's office?

Clint Hill sees JFK laying with the BACK AND RIGHT SIDE OF HIS HEAD FACING HIM DIRECTLY

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly?

Dr. CARRICO - Sure.This was a 5- by 7 1-cm (sic) defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound.

Mr. SPECTER - Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent?

Dr. CARRICO - No other wound on the head.

Pat, why not just use the coat, jacket and backwound rather than a drawing? and the facts offered.... 20 degree downward angle at the point of contact, 11 degree upward movement of the bullet, 25 degree downward movement thru JC.

Except we are talking about the headwound and what appears to be you desire to assist Bethesda and the ONI prove THEY are correct about the wounds.

JFK's head did not come apart in their hands like HUMES tells us... his condition was such that the ER staff attempted life saving procedures... if the wound was as it appeared at 8pm in Bethesda, what kind of sick sadist of a doctor preforms a tracheotomy on a man whose head is open as BOSWELL described?

Whether in the rear, right rear, or just RIGHT, how do you explain the disconnection of the brain from the skull on the LEFT side of the entire skull... so much so that the brain literally FALLS out of the opening in the skull...

Seems to me you nbeed to read the autopsy section of BEST EVIDENCE again Pat. What Humes describes and what PARKLAND saw are mutually exclusive

I find it unfathomably naive to conclude in the midst of the most glaring of evidence and CONTEXT, that LHO did ANYTHING alone.

It was suggested by Ron Paul at the debates a few years ago that 911 was the result of 60 years of US Foreign Policy.

JFK was intent on changing that policy and was deemed potentially successful, so he was "neutralized"

There isn't a time in all of History when you can find WHITE MEN not raping any and all resources wherever they can.

Where both sides are played against each other for the entertainment and profit of a few.

The 50's administations created the 60's need to "Protect and expand" the MICC which as Ike said had only become the dominant political and economic power during his administration,

while he watched helplessly and NIXON wrung his hands.

I was raised by very intelligent people who taught me to question things, to not simply accept at face value. Maybe it's a JEWISH thing? Judaism is an ongoing logical conversation with G-d and one's faith.

Nothing is taken as true until it can be referenced and agreed upon... as we see from the Talmud.

To support the WCR and LHO as Lone Nut is to close one's eyes to the CONTEXT of the times... JFK was not the only person who was killed to further the MICC agenda... far from it.

----

On the tape, recorded in May of 1972, the president confided to two top aides that the Warren Commission pulled off "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated." Unfortunately, he did not elaborate..

Just THINK of the reputation and activities of the man saying THAT and in 1972 no less!. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Watergate, CREEP, MLK, RFK, etc, etc...

That people with a brain in ther heads can look at history and not see what RICH WHITE MEN have done and continue to do is a head shaker for me...

That anyone can believe these MEN simply stood by and watched JFK do his thing hoping some little man would take care of it for them is simply too difficult for me to understand

DJ

You should provide the link to that article Vince...

One of the very best - and opened the door to the SS for me at least....

Any thoughts on DILLION's involvement?

Kelley goes a step further to say OSWALD "says" he took the bus, via a transfer, all the way to the Texas Theater..

He then claims, after FRITZ mentions the cab, that Oswald changed his story....

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=29105&relPageId=1

Fritz's interrogation notes suggest a different means of OSWALD getting to his room...

"He told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked on to his house"

Followed by a "QUOTE" from Oswald.... changing the previous answer to now include a cab ride...

This is one of the few "QUOTES" attributed to OSWALD... This screams to me that Fritz simply wrote what needed to be written...

If OSWALD really took a bus home, the BLEDSOE bus and WHALEY cab stories are fabricated (and to me proven by the description of the ARREST clothing rather than what he was wearing to work...

The final line on this page reinforces that OSWALD changed his clothes when he got home.... one of the few constants in his "as told to" comments.

Sam Kinney told me (it's on tape- no second-hand neighbor revelations LOL) that the right rear of JFK's head blew out and he had THE piece of the back of JFK's head in his hands on the C-130. He put in a phone patch to Dr. Burkley...it went to Tommy Mills...and who knows what became of it.

Or the piece BORING recants on the very next day after revealing it... the piece found in the SS follow-up car... that also disappears to History

Nice to see one for our side once in a while...

Way to go Vince...

Now, I'm sorry if I missed where you address this... your thoughts on DILLION leading the Treasury and the SS behavior.

Thanks

DJ

What are we missing here Pat ??

McClelland mistaken again in this photo along with everyone else? (yes, I know there are Bethesda witnesses in this mix... and THEY also place the wound in the same spot)

Since the bones were hinged OUT, is it not conceivable that one or more of these bones would hinge UP requiring holding it down from the TOP of the head? One does not hold NOTHING over a hole in the skull... the only things left to HOLD on JFK's skull was the TOP/FRONT of the head.. the BACK was gone.... just not according to the autopsy report and xrays...

Where he once assured journalists suspecting shots came from the front that "there is no reason to suspect that any shots came from the front,"

Pat... how about we take a second and look at the construction of this statement...

1 "there is no reason"

2 "to suspect"

3 "that any shots came from the front"

Is this the same as saying "THERE WERE NO SHOTS FROM THE FRONT" of course not... he is discussing REASONS to SUSPECT... and covering his ass...

according to the FBI/SS "reason" and "Suspicion" were not to be considered that afternoon...

Pat - this doesn't scream "play along to get along" to you?

Continues to blow me away that anyone would use the frightened, coerced testimony over their own common sense in order to prove something...

McC and Huber put a nasty wound over the left eye.. two of the FOX photos put one over the right.

SO...when people cite McClelland as proof the back of Kennedy's head was blown out, I just have to shake my head.

and when I look at this drawing and hear people claim McClelland was ANYTHING BUT a "blow-out to the rear" witness.. I too have to shake my head...

That you present this Pat as if there was no fear in these men's hearts... that they were so incredibly stupid as to not read the writing on the walls... as soon as the body was TAKEN

I suppose you also think that whatever was happening to the Parkland staff was not discussed among them... That Todd's work on Perry was on an island.

Pat - do you not see the "save my ass" changes to McClelland's story as just that? How do you view this drawing and still claim McC was NOT a BOH witness, regardless of what he needed to say afterward...

This sounds more and more like a McAdams exhibit each time I read a new post of yours.... you going with the revised FORD PLACEMENT of the backwound too, since he MUST be right and everyone else wrong... just like this drawing - which matches the descrption of the wound by most everyone in DALLAS..

???

I am sick of being patronised on TV by talking heads saying the people believe in JFK conspiracies because "Oswald" doesn't balance "JFK" on the scales of life. That is rubbish, and they know it's rubbish. Do they think no one has looked at evidence?

I often wonder if the TV talking heads have looked at the evidence themselves, or are they just parroting the party line. Even if they had looked at the evidence, they may not feel free to comment on it. That would be straying off the reservation, which can damage or even end one's career.

Hey there Ron,

Of course they didn't look at the evidence - it takes YEARS to look at the evidence - which has always been my particular pet-peeve... the CT crowd is not unified behind a proof for the message.

I say we can offer a simple picture worth a thousand words and an explanation which first makes the SBT impossible which in turn destroys the LONE NUT theory...

Discussing Oswald on the 6th floor is yet another problem of awareness of the evidecnce that is very hard to sort out and present simply.

I agree the back wound was an entrance and the throat is the exit, and the bullet transversed mostly soft tissues. I believe this exit bullet then plinked the Limo windshield and it was not deformed much. This one never touched Connally, and Connally's bullet was separate from any of JFK's bullets!

Agree with who Jim, Bugliosi?

HERE is where it entered, the throat wound is 11 degrees HIGHER than the back wound.

The alleged origin of said shot is 17 degrees above horozontal plus another 3 degress for the road's slope...

Unless JFK is tying his shoes at the moment of this shot.. it is NOT POSSIBLE for a downward sloping shot to change direction given your explanation:

"transversed mostly soft tissues" Nothing deflected this to change it's downward course... while the course thru JC is at an even HIGHER angle and is NOT traveling right-to-left (back to front) at the same angle as would connect JFK's wounds.

Nothing in the SBT lines up Jim... the throat wound was ABOVE the shirt (meaning an even higher angle upward)

and the last straw in your presentation is the Chain of Custody of CE399... maybe tell us who admits to taking THAT BULLET from Dallas to DC? As I see it, Rowley gets one bullet and provides another.

According to the SS, Agent JOHNSON gives Frazier the bullet... not Rowley. (Rowley tells us the bullet he gets from Johnson is NOT CE399, Johnson says CE399 not fthe one he got from Wrights and so on....) whereas Todd confirms the bullet he gets FROM Rowley is CE399... and the ONLY initials are those that follow ROWLEY...

How do you conclude a 5mm hole is a 6.5mm bullet's EXIT?

Here are the first pages after the "Especially printed for the friends of PETERSON" title page...

I says "printed in 1964" and appears as if these WHITE pages were added after the book was already printed...

Inside dust cover says this is the FIRST PUBLICATION IN AMERICA - also says it was printed in 19 different countries

DJ

The other story related I've read before was if the Daley Plaza hit was called off say due to rain, they had another team in the Trade Mart ready to go sort of like RFK's hit in 68 at the Amassador Hotel. JFK would have been hit somewhere behind the stage on his way in or out of the trade mart.

If true...then a different Patsy than Oswald.

Somehow, I think they would have pinned it on Vallee....

Yet that is a wonderful point David.... I seem to remember the DPD picking some people up in the TM area... Larry Hancock talks of the DPD's main concern as being the Trade Mart demonstrators...

Assets were maneuvered into place... somehow Oswald was not out on the street waving to JFK at the time....

You think Rose would have been as docile as Dr. Thomas T. Noguchi....

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Robert_Kennedy_Assassination

Freed's account in fact matches Robert Kennedy's autopsy report. Coroner Thomas Naguchi determined that RFK had been shot three times,

all from the rear at a steep upward angle, with powder burns indicating that the fatal shot being fired from 1 or 2 inches away.

and yet... Sirhan is somehow convicted...

Again, D. Russell talks of these techniques in his articles and travels... THAT is one of the best brain twisters yet....

WHO was the backup Patsy?

Hi,

There is a special edition for this book that is extremely interesting! Printed especially for Peterson Engineering Co.

It appears Peterson Engineering Company is connected to PINGO, which is in the book. Based in Texas Oil well business, and the appearance is bragging on Hunt.

URL 1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gearhart

URL 2:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321224683850?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Citation:

"Offered is "Who Killed Kennedy?" by Thomas G. Buchanan and published by Putnam. This hardcover is in very good condition wrapped in a very good dust jacket. The jacket has light edge wear. The book hinges are strong and the pages tight in the binding. There is a section in front of the book titled 'This edition is especially printed for the friends of Petersen Engineering Co: Creators of PENGO products,' with several pages of product photos. 207 pp."

I wasn't aware of this edition -- it seems very odd to me that Putnam would do this.

Hi Marian... this is the version of the book I have....

I can scan the first few pages with the "message from Peterson" and post if anyone is interested

yet there are indeed a handful of product pages at the beginning of the book that are just fluff.

The irony of these two entities within the same pages if amazing.

Did he ever do articles prior to this book on the culprits he identifies?

Given his understanding of the matter one would think he had been looking into the growth of BIG business, the mafia, Mil Intel & the CIA in the 50's.

Need to revisit the book...

Cheers

DJ

or this guy in BOND

and what colorization SHOULD have been done - I may have missed a few leaves... but unless this film has a clear version of the red area, which is very possible... this wont amount to much.

(a side note: Didn't Dick Russel write a few articles about the Phillipine angle to this assassination and that there were a number of armed assassins between DP and the TRADE Mart to make sure the job was done... I believe it's in his "On the Trail" book that reprints all his articles..)