David Josephs

Cliff - separating what they said into two posts makes this more confusing.... I posted what the CALL from Sibert to Killion was about... Sibert says it himself. Wrong again Cliff... your "general feeling" had to do with a "soft-nosed bullet" not soluble rounds.... or rounds that would completely fragmentize, the statement does not say that the doctors at the autopsy asked us to determine if there were such things as soluble rounds A general feeling existed during the autopsy that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. and the phone call had nothing to do with soluble rounds Sibert left to call SA Charles Killion (FBI Laboratory) to determine if any extra bullets existed SIBERT: Following discussion among doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuck Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize When the autopsy doctor appeared to have no idea of where the bullet entering the back may have gone, the doctors began discussing other possible outlets for the bullet. No word of ice bullets or soluble rounds here - yet you keep claiming it was these doctors who came up with that option and specifically asked about these types of bullets... I say BS. The "discussion" could have easily been, Humes, "I just don't understand where the bullet went" O'Neill, "Well, I know there are bullets that dissolve, plastic or ice bullets" Boswell, "huh?" Finck, "Really?" Sibert, "yeah, I've heard of those too" Humes, "You saying that bullets that dissolve could have been used? That might explain why there is no transit" Sibert, "Well, maybe there are other bullets still in Dallas... I will call Killion and find out" and not another word is EVER spoken about soluble rounds.... cause where in the world would a non-CIA associated assassin get soluble rounds, right? When Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back, Sibert left to call SA Charles Killion (FE1 Laboratory) to determine if any extra bullets existed. He was advised of the finding of a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital in Dallas and relayed this information to the autopsy surgeons. I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was ho doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body. I understand that Humes did call Parkland on 11/23/63 and learned at that time that a tracheotomy had been performed over a wound in the President's throat. So the result of the phone call was NOT the FBI making a case for soluble bullets or that they even existed, but for a bullet found in Dallas that fell out of JFK during external cardiac massage. and no matter how much SPIN YOU PUT ON IT, you cannot make what is plainly written and easily understood as a phone call to see if there are other bullets in Dallas as a confirmation of the autopsists desire to know if soluble rounds exist. DJ.

One of the problems with that scenario, David, is that it is inconsistent with an extremely shallow wound to the back. They could barely get the tip of their pinky to where the path ended. There was no "surgery" evident in the back at the completion of the autopsy or at any other time. So, if they surgically removed these bullets how did they do so without leaving any evidence of surgery? I am not necessarily convinced that the flechette dart was used, but I will not rule it out based on the evidence nor on arguments that I have thus far seen entertained by detractors. I've been looking at this evidence for almost 2 decades and even Fletcher Prouty told me when I brought it up that he was almost certain it was used. He based his opinion on the characteristics of the wounds and the effect on the target, that are unique to this weapon system. He was the one who originally got it approved for development for the CIA. Hey there Greg.... I tried to lay out my position in the above post.... I think the back wound was shallow and 1) either a pointed bullet was in there and fell out (Bell?). Whether that was the stretcher bullet or not, IDK. OR 2) the bullet was indeed still in JFK at 6:45 when Humes/Boswell used a clamp and simply removed it.... it then fell naturally to the 8:15 autopsy to state that the wound was indeed shallow and non-transitting (also remember that the FIRST reports were 3 shots, three hits, JFK - JC - JFK.... If the bullet they removed was anything but a CE399 twin... it had to disappear and other solutions created... and voila, CE399 becomes the shallow wound bullet.... until Tague has us run out of bullets... and the SBT is born. Whether there was evidence of surgery or not would be left up to HUMES to say so.... his sticking his pinkie into the wound could obliterate any signs of surgery... The Parkland ER personnel saw a bullet hole, an entrance wound to their trained eyes. So much so they postulated that the exit wound out the back of the head was the end result of this bullet. No bullets were looked for at Parkland, no xrays were taken. There was a wound of the right temple, the left temple, the throat and a 3 inch avulsed hole in the back of the head. I am DEFINITELY NOT stating that a soluble round or flechette was NOT used... what I am saying is Cliff's presentation of his THEORY as HISTORICAL FACT has a few holes in it. If they ASKED about these rounds... why was the answer from FBI, "we have CE399, found on a 'JFKs' stretcher" ? It fell out of JFK's back, NOT from JC. Discussing soluble rounds SERIOUSLY when Oswald had already been caught and publically convicted would have been absurd... There is also nothing to state WHO had this discussion - specifically. O'Neill's HSCA affidavit (curious - how come THIS affidavit is considered good evidence while the Baker/Weitzman/Boone affidavits were completely ignored at the WC hearings?) What irks me about Cliff's presentation is the one-sidedness of it... in ALL THE RECORDS O'Neill's one sentence is the only mention of soluble bullets. While at the same time basically confirming that a FMJ 6.5mm bullet did NOT hit JFK in the back... and that the wound did NOT transit.... end of SBT. The throat was not considered involved until the next morning's conversation with Perry.... since at no time did Bethesda even consider the throat the site of a bullet wound why continually refer to this evidence - which is only related to the back wound - as something "the autopsists wanted to know". And then conclude that their wanting to know makes it even more plausible and possible... isn't that a straw man argument? When Humes and Boswell couldn't locate an outlet for the bullet that entered the back, Sibert left to call SA Charles Killion (FE1 Laboratory) to determine if any extra bullets existed. He was advised of the finding of a bullet on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital in Dallas and relayed this information to the autopsy surgeons. I know for a fact that when the autopsy was complete, there was ho doubt in anyone's mind in attendance at the autopsy that the bullet found on the stretcher in Dallas came out of JFK's body. I understand that Humes did call Parkland on 11/23/63 and learned at that time that a tracheotomy had been performed over a wound in the President's throat. I do not recall anything about the tracheotomy incision that indicated a bullet had damaged the area. When shown a tracing of the tracheotomy during the HSCA interview, I had no recollection or comment concerning the apparent bullet wound perimeter. It was and is my opinion that the bullet which entered the back came out the back. Some discussion did occur c0ncernin.g the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed during the autopsy that a soft-nosed bullet struck JW. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" bullet, one which dissolves after contact. There was also no real sense either way that the wounds were caused by the same kind of bullet.

There is another option directly indicated in the historical record. From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA: From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit: The autopsists wanted to know if there existed rounds which would "dissolve after contact". The correct answer would have been -- yes! http://karws.gso.uri...s/flechette.txt Page 3 of SIBERT Affidavit: Fair enough Cliff.... yet I am going to layout below the evidence you pointed us to and the conclusion that the Doctors DID NOT ASK ANY SUCH THING... NOR was that the consensus of the men in that room As I dig a little deeper into your source material I think we have a difference of opinion as to what was said…. (I do not see where I claim to know what happened... only the logic behind the different questions Humes COULD have asked... and whether or not he was involved in the pre autopsy surgery.) This has nothing to do with me. This has nothing to do with any theories of mine. I'm simply pointing out what they thought at the time and the evidence consistent with their observations. What THEY THOUGHT AT THE TIME... is something you conclude from what was said... you have no idea what HUMES was thinking... "If I ask about a soluble bullet, maybe they will forget the "surgery to the head" comment" is just as possible as anything else... given the time of arrival and the events between 6:30 and 8:00pm I find it funny that you take the facts available and create a THEORY to fit those facts - a very good theory indeed.... yet then call it HISTORICAL FACT. The existence of the weapon system is not in question...the THEORY you put forth is that it was used that day... based on your interpretation of the evidence available. Lifton/Horne's THEORY is that the body was operated on prior to the start of the official autopsy - again based on the evidence available - and these two theories are not in conflict at all... What I disagree with is your assertion that it was the DOCTORS who gave the soluble solution a thought, that THEY originated the thought and that there was any resolution to what YOU CLAIM, was THEIR question.... It's hard to deny the existence of additional bullets as described by the SS memos... the CE399 problems, and the reality that MORE THAN 3 SHOTS WERE FIRED... there HAS to be more bullets in DP or in the bodies... and there were. Why can you not even acknowledge that the autopsists saying something to the FBI in the room like, "So either of you guys throw away any bullets?" would be absurd... I fail to see any point to the above. What are you talking about? What I am saying here Cliff, is the question of what happened to the bullet that was supposed to be IN THE BACK WOUND is one of THREE possibilities.... 1) are there soluble bullets (Cause there is no bullet here, it is a shallow hole, and there is not transit lane - where the #$^$# is the bullet") 2) with "surgery to the head" there could have been surgery to other parts specifically to remove bullets... HUMES did not, and WOULD NOT ask if surgery COULD have been performed to remove the bullet(s)... NOR DID HUMES ASK IF THERE EXISTED ROUNDS THAT DISSOLVE... (unless you can prove it) 3) the bullet fell out the shallow wound… was pointed and found by Tomlinson… and is subsequently replaced with CE399. Cliff - "there were discussions" that did NOT make it into the FBI report from that day, or Humes' testimony, or Boswell, or Finck Mr. SPECTER - Have you been present here today during the entire course of Doctor Humes testimony? Commander BOSWELL - I have, sir; yes. Mr. SPECTER - Do you have anything that you would like to add by way of elaboration or modification to that which Doctor Humes has testified? Commander BOSWELL - None, I believe. Doctor Humes has stated essentially what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our conclusions. Mr. SPECTER - Now, Doctor Humes, at one point in your examination of the President, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your finger? Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. SPECTER - And at or about that time when you were trying to ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile in the body of the President, did someone from the Secret Service call your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital? Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; they did. Mr. SPECTER - And in that posture of your examination, having just learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at Point "C" on Exhibit 385? http://www.history-m...Vol16_0501a.htm Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher. The autopsists wanted to know if there existed rounds which would "dissolve after contact". This statement of yours is the crux of your argument Cliff... you ASSUME the doctors wanted to know something when all that is written is a DISCUSSION... and the discussion centers around the BACK WOUND, not the throat… At the time you are sourcing, the throat wound was not even a consideration… The Doctors, using only the physical evidence before them, can only conclude the back bullet fell out. SIBERT does not come back from his call with information regarding ice bullets… And O’Neill gives us the actual impression of what they saw: SIBERT: http://www.history-m...et/pdf/md46.pdf It was my impression that both Finck and Humes agreed that there was no exit wound of the bullet thru the back. The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments completely.. Following discussion among doctors relating to the back injury, I left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that would almost completely fragmentize Cliff - from this quote we conclude that Sibert was going to ask about a bullet that could completely FRAGMENTIZE... (as opposed to all FMJ bullets that are NOT DESIGNED TO FRAGMENTIZE.) not whether bullets were soluble. And since we can also conclude that this CALL TO KILLION comes after the back wound discussion mentioned by O’Neill below… the concept of SOLUBLE BULLETS was not mentioned again. In fact, when Sibert returns, he only mentions the bullet that becomes CE399… NOTHING related to info on soluble bullets. O’NEILL http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md47.pdf Funny again how you neglect to include the statements just prior to and just after your copy/paste..... Were any of the rounds fired “soft-nosed”… given CE399? Did Sibert or O’Neill come back from calling around to say that a soluble bullet was an option? It was and is my opinion that the bullet which entered the back came out the back. Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general feeling existed during the autopsy that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" bullet, one which dissolves after contact. There was also no real sense either way that the wounds were caused by the same kind of bullet. So what I would like to know is how you arrive at the conclusion from these documents that YOU referred us to, that Drs Humes, Boswell and/or Finck ASKED to find out whether the bullet could have been soluble… as opposed to complete fragmentation… I don’t see ANYTHING that refers to “blood” soluble… in fact, the evidence points to EVERYONE IN THAT ROOM believing the round fell out JFK’s back and was the bullet found at Parkland.

Yes indeed Daniel... nice catch. I remember the Osbourne dialog... and the HSCA dance around.... The HSCA is at least admitting that Osbourne was there... (50) John Stringer, the medical photographer, likewise recalled some discussion at the beginning of the autopsy concerning the scope of the autopsy. He said he believed Dr. Burkley played a central role in the discussions and seemed to be acting on behalf of the Kennedy family . (39) He specifically recalled Dr. Burkley indicating to the doctors that they should not conduct a full autopsy, saying, "* (,you) shouldn't do a complete one if (you) don't have to." (40) (51) Adm. David Osborne (then captain) stated that at the beginning of the autopsy there was tremendous pressure to perform a "quick post" and to leave the hospital . (h.1) (58) Special Agents Sibert and O'Neill confirmed that the pathologists had X-rays taken before and after making incisions. The FIRST incision was at 8:15 according to the official record - the FIRST incision in an autopsy is the "Y" incision - the head and neck were NOT cut into or investigated thoroughly. The Body officially arrived at the morgue at 8pm yet Humes tells Finck at 7:30 when he calls him, that photos and xrays had already been taken. ?? The FOX photos are obviously PRE incision... AS Xrays were being taken from the morgue to be developed, the technician sees Jackie and party arrive and enter the hospital WHILE JFK IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE COFFIN.... Neat trick - huh? DJ This is from volume VII, with the paragraph numbers in parentheses. ------------------------------------------------------------------- (84) In a committee telephone interview with Admiral Osborne, another issue arose. He stated that he thought he recalled seeing an intact slug roll out from the clothing of President Kennedy and onto the autopsy table when personnel opened the casket and removed the clothing from the body of the President. (85) The committee reviewed thoroughly all documents and recontacted those persons who moved the body of the President from the casket onto the autopsy table and then prepared the body for examination. Paul K. O'Connor, who along with James Jenkins, had the duty of preparing the body for the autopsy, said the body had arrived at about 8 p.m. and was wrapped in a body bag [note, this is Lifton's guy--J. McA.], the head in a sheet. O'Connor said he assisted in unwrapping the sheet and could not recall any foreign object, specifically a missile, being discovered during the autopsy or while unwrapping the sheets. We all are aware that when leaving PARKLAND, JFK was nude, wrapped in sheets, with more sheets around his head.. A clear plastic LINER was placed in the coffin first to keep the blood from seeping... So how is it that the HSCA can conclude an 8pm arrival.... in a BODY BAG no less, when the evidence celarly suggests a different story? (86) Jenkins likewise said he could not recall any foreign objects being discovered or discussed and specifically could not recall any missile or fragments of a missile falling out onto the autopsy table or floor. (87) Throughout the committee's investigation, no one had ever mentioned the discovery of a missile in Bethesda Naval Hospital. The only bullet recovered was the one discovered at Parkland Memorial Hospital. So what about Osbourne's mentioning it - how does he become "no one"? (88) Following this investigation, the committee recontacted Admiral Osborne and informed him that the body of the President had not arrived in any clothes, but was wrapped in sheets, (116) and that no one else recalled anything about the discovery of a missile. And what about the body bag? Admiral Osborne then said that he could not be sure he actually did see a missile and that it was possible the FBI and Secret Service only spoke about the discovery of a missile. He did say he was positive only one bullet was ever recovered, whether it was discovered at Bethesda Hospital or Parkland Hospital. Success for yet another governmental "official" investigation.... the FIRST story was wrong... what was FIRST REPORTED AND SEEN..? a mistake Is it me, or does that seem to happen ALOT in this case???

Mark... everything related to the Silly Bullet Theory was worthless... other than to convince the gullible public of what couldn't have possibly occurred. One can almost see the wheels spinning in Specter's head... to come up with what as to be the most sensational question ever asked... Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. Assume first of all that 1) the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. 2) copper-jacketed bullet (DJ: that unlike this one, severely fragmented and exploded into a cloud of dust particles) 3) fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, ballistically arced very slightly while traveling 189 ft (58 m) in a downward net angle of 19 degrees (allowing for the 3 degrees downward slope of Elm Street), after an initial supersonic rifle exit muzzle velocity of 1,850 to 2,000 feet per second (560 to 610 m/s), then entered President Kennedy's rear suit coat at about 1,700 feet per second (518 m/s), 4) with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, 5) striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity DJ: LOOK at where this bullet hole is... LOOK at where his neck is by comparison UNDERSTAND THAT SPECTER says 45 degrees downward.. in reality it was about 20 degrees... DOWNWARD... Put your finger between your shoulder blades and point DOWN at 20 degrees.... throat EXIT? no way. but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? SPECTER: IOW... if I ASSUME the hole we are talking about is and exit would, and further assume that FACT TO BE TRUE... My question Dr Perry et al.... was the HOLE I TOLD YOU WAS AN EXIT, an exit hole? And people out there can still cling to the "no conspiracy" stance

Ok Cliff... Not a theory... defined as: a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation. In other words Cliff... your proposing an explanation for the information you've gathered. "Possibilities" you call them that are based on your interpretation of the information available. Why can you not even acknowledge that the autopsists saying something to the FBI in the room like, "So either of you guys throw away any bullets?" would be absurd... "Are there bullets that dissolve?" is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why a man who was shot, WITHOUT A TRANSIT LANE, has no bullets in his body. What other choices are there Cliff? It was taken, it was never there, it dissolved.... The hole suggests it WAS there, and as I say, if HUMES and BOSWELL took the bullets out of JFK themselves, asking whether there are dissolvable bullets is pretty clever - don't you think? Or would you have them ask, "Wow, Surgery to the top of the head... did someone at Parkland dig the bullets out of the body as we can't seem to find any in this shallow wound... if "THEY" operated on the head it is no great stretch to assume THEY removed the bullet in the shallow wound..." ? Difference between us is you have a vested stake in your theory, which I would expect... it's a GOOD theory... but please don't pull a Fetzer on me just because I happen to think there were other scenarios that satisfy the evidence, and don't necessarily buy into yours - agree to a little friendly disagreement here Cliff... Only time will tell... hopefully. Peace DJ

I've understood your point and responded Cliff... to reiterate... Given the choice between A) the SS/FBI destroyed the medical evidence and STOLE THE BULLETS FROM THE BODY and are there bullets the FBI is aware of that dissolve in the body? Why do you assume that asking the question suggests they were agreeing on a solution to their problem of no bullets? OR when we now know that JFK was on the Bethesda morgue table by 6:45 with Humes and Boswell, Kellerman and ?? doing their thing to him so that at 8-8:15pm we see "surgery to the top of the head" theses are PROVEABLE FACTS of the case... YOU make observations of the Zfilm and conclude what you do... an interesting theory with all the components of a real possibility That the throat was opened beyond the tracheotomoy, that bullets disappeared from a variety of locations, that the physical evidence was controlled and tampered with by the SS/FBI is impossible to refute.... I did not say Parkland got the throat wound wrong.... THEY knew JFK was SHOT Cliff... SHOT... so a wound on the throat the size of a small hole would NATURALLY cause ER personnel th think it was a gunshot, a very small caliber gunshot... yet these people also thought that this was the entry for the large blowout hole in the back of his head.... why is that not a possibility? A FLURRY of shots could include one to the right temple, one to the left temple, one to JC, one thru the windshield to his throat, one to the back of his head.... just as easily as the theory of a dissolving poisonous bullet.... I am stating what the Exec Session transcripts stated about an autopsy report that is no longer in existence.. I am saying that the dissolvable bullets/poisonous flechettes you talk about were supposedly so small as to not be detected upon entry... NOT to leave a 5mm hole that looks like a frontal bullet shot... otherwise why bother if it's going to appear like any other bullet which would cause medical personnel to dig into the wound to find this bullet?? Here's a theory - the shallow shot to the back hits nerves, that when combined with the corset he was wearing, made him immobile. Now I realize that the other passengers do NOT agree with this statement.... yet there a number of uncoroborrated realities we need to put some faith behind, no? If the throat wound did not occur until AFTER these shots, as a result of either a subsequent shot, the FLURRY, or a fragment exiting Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice. Mr. KELLERMAN. Ok. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly. Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day? Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association? Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you. Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice? Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pin-point just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker. Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then. Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit." Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir

Too many big words again Mikey? sorry, I'll try to dumb it down for you Q: Do you agree that one of the two bullets, either CE399 or a 30 cal bullet was in Dallas that day and fired from a gun and ended up in near pristine condition, looking like it did not hit anything? A: NO, - CE399 was NOT in Dallas... - the 30 cal bullet was mentioned by a few people as being a clean, pointed bullet and having been seen and held at Parkland by Tomlinson... THIS is the bullet given to Wright, which Wright gives to Johnson, which Johnson gives to Rowley. - CE399 as we now know it came into existence when Todd handed Frazier the bullet and he, Frazier, and two others THEN put their initials on it... in DC - the OTHER BULLET (in the SS memo) may have been the pointed one... yet has disappeared to History. Like the Limo stop... there are those that saw it and swear to it... but the physical evidence for it is very hard to come by. MIKE: So I will assume that you believe a 30 caliber bullet was fired from a gun that day and ended up on Connally's stretcher in near pristine condition. A: Why would you ASSume that when you keep saying I have not answered the question? - there is nothing you have to prove anything was fired THAT DAY - there is nothing you have to show it was Connally's stretcher - in fact, the evidence shows it was NOT either JFK or JC's stretcher that was moved - we have TESTIMONY that the bullet was in the condition you describe... So what? Q: How did the 30 cal bullet get fired from a gun and end up in near pristine condition on Connally's stretcher? A: WHEREVER IT WAS FOUND.... - EITHER - SOMEONE (Jack Ruby) PUT IT THERE... - or Parkland, being a busy ER hospital, could have had another patient with a gunshot wound... WE DONT KNOW, MIKE. If you can cannot those dots with something other than your opinion... sure would like to see it...

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952? Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please. In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then. Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School. Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school. Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Stripling JR High is in Fort Worth Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume. Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school. Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth? Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School. Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that? Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School. Now, Lee and the MO moved to NYC in august 1952... HARVEY went to PS#117 in 1952, was barely in class and had problems with the law and his truancy at PS#44 in 1953, the attendance suddenly changes... and the ongoing court appearances for HARVEY'S behavior while LEE, who arrived in NYC with his mother, is a model student at PS#44 ROBERT visited NYC in the summer of 1953 when Harvey was between 7th and 8th grades Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave. Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family. Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay? Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address. Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school? Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not. Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record? Mr. JENNER. Yes. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. DULLES. Back on the record. Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City? Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir. Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee? Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did. Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions. Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry. Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had? Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera. Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life? Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment. Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave? Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him So, according the the WCR records and the testimony of HIS BROTHER ROBERT... Robert KNOWS his young brother and Mother are in NYC in 1953... he visited them there first in 1952(!), and took the photo of HARVEY we see above during the summer of 1953. The records of Oswald from Stripling are woefully incomplete... there is nothing to coroborrate Robert's testimony and insistence that his brother was in Ft Worth at the same time he is visiting them in NYC, both in Fall 1952 and Summer 1953. Robert KNEW that Lee could not be both in NYC and Ft Worth... LEE was never there... Harvey on the other hand..... John PIC: Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late Septemberearly October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere betweenSeptember of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx. ... "To visit my mother and my brother..." from Harvey and Lee, Armstrong: The Warren Commission ignored Robert Oswald's testimony about Stripling and concluded that "Lee Harvey Oswald" left Fort Worth in August of 1952, and moved to New York with his mother where he attended the 7th grade (1952-53) and the first half of the 8th grade (fall semester, 1953). He then moved to New Orleans where he attended the last half of the 8th grade (spring semester, 1954), all of the 9th grade (1954-55 school year), and graduated from Beauregard in June 1955. He briefly attended Warren Easton High School in the fall of 1955 (New Orleans), dropped out, worked in New Orleans for the next 8 months, and then moved to Fort Worth. According to Warren Commission version of his background, it would have been impossible for "Lee Harvey Oswald" to have attended even a single day of school at Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth, from September 1952 thro June 1956 Finally... the assisstant pricipal of STRIPLING JR HIGH As I continued to locate and talk with former Stripling teachers, many suggested that I call "Frank Kudlaty," the former assistant principal at Stripling. I telephoned Mr. Kudlaty, introduced myself as a JFK researcher, and asked if he knew whether or not "Lee Harvey Oswald" had attended Stripling. Without hesitation Frank said, "Yes, he attended Stripling." Somewhat surprised I asked, "How do you know that." Frank replied, "Because I gave his Stripling records to the FBI."Frank explained, during a videotaped interview, that before the FBI agents arrived at Stripling on Saturday morning (November 23), he briefly reviewed Oswald's school file. He explained that when a student enrolled in a new school, in this case at Stripling, the previous school routinely sent copies of his school transcripts. Occasionally, if the records were not sent, the new school would write and request copies of the school records from the previous school. Frank said that when he examined Oswald's file he saw neither copies of school transcripts from a previous school nor a letter from Stripling requesting such records. Frank said this was very unusual, as Oswald must have attended school prior to his attendance at Stripling, yet there were no records .

As before you avoided answering the question. Are you really that dense a human being Mike... or you taking stoopid lessons from GMACK and DVP? You, yourself tells us that Pool/Tomlinson rode a SS agent up in the elevator and when they returned HAVING LEFT THE STRETCHER BY THE ELEVATORS UNATTENDED.. A bullet supposedly rolls out... which Tomlinson gives to Wright.... this is AFTER Seth sees and greets JACK RUBY at PARKLAND HOSPITAL... I can state as FACT, CE399 was not in Dallas I can also state as FACT, the bullet these men did see and touch was NOT ce399, nor has it been seen since... so I PERSONALLY cannot conclude anything about THAT bullet (unlike you who can jump to any unsupported conculsions you want and declare them FACTS), other than that it was seen by witnesses, which SUGGESTS that it was in Dallas, at Parkland. That there was mention of another whole, intact bullet by the SS, that was involved in the assassination.... the SEPARATE BULLETS that hit JFK and JC.. Tell me Mike... what did the BULLET that killed JFK look like? Given they SECURED IT that evening.... thanks and please, Show me where, in either reply, I AVOID anything.... other than the pitfalls in your lack of knowledge...

Sorry buddy, I don't do "short" - I prefer to support my posts with actual evidence and then authenticate/coroborrate that evidence.. I try not to deal with opinion unless I say I am expressing an opinion. So Mike.... you can ask me anything you like... as long as you agree to provide evidence and authentication for your argument against..... There is evidence that a pointed round was found... yet disappeared... it is SAID not to have been disformed and it looked intact There is NO EVIDENCE that ce399 was in Dallas, in contact with either JFK or JC, and no Chain of custody until TODD gives it to Frasier in DC.... CE399 only appears on the scene as a result of Chief ROWLEY giving it to ELMER TODD on his way to Frasier... (please remember that TODD was the agent sent to convince the Parkland docs, specifically Perry, that the throat would COULD BE either entrance or exit... after hounding him repeatedly.. Todd himself expresses regret at the manner inwhich he did his job regarding Perry.... Reading the Bell Article linked here will help with your understanding that the WCR conclusions are CRAP.... the physical evidence? more Bullsh!t The medical evidence? Please. As I've asked you in the past Mike... you can present any piece of evidence from the WCR or HSCA and we can show you how it is not only NOT supported by the evidence but more than likely the evidence states exactly the opposite - and not in a single instance, but in ALL instances..... http://jfkhistory.co...ellArticle.html Wright's and Tomlinson's unanimous rejection of CE-399 was further confirmed by this top secret FBI airtel, which was never shown to the Warren Commission. WFO (FBI Washington Field Office), neither DARRELL C. TOMLINSON, who found bullet at Parkland Hospital, Dallas, nor O. P. WRIGHT, Personnel Officer, Parkland Hospital, who obtained bullet from TOMLINSON and gave to Special Service, at Dallas 11/22/63, can identify bullet. Instead, the FBI told the commission that the two civilians had been interviewed by special agent Bardwell Odum, who was told by the men, that the stretcher bullet "appears to be the same one". But when Josiah Thompson and Dr. Gary Aguilar contacted the National Archives, they found no record of such an interview, in spite of the fact that the FBI was required to document interviews like that. And when they contacted Bardwell Odum in person, he denied ever conducting such an interview and stated that he had never even seen CE399. ...... Considering the time zones, it was between 90 minutes and 2 hours after the arrival of those fragments at the FBI labs, that Tomlinson was awakened by someone from the FBI, demanding that he "keep his mouth shut" about the bullet he found at Parkland hospital. This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records. Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh, excuse me, that's Saturday morning (11/23) - after the assassination, the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my mouth shut. Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet? Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found… Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did they say - was there any particular thing about what they said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period? Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period. and finally Mike... your graphic on the SBT and Specter shows just how little you understand here... you PROVE the SBT is impossible without the 3 degree slope of ELM, the trajectory from 6th floor SE corner would be 20 degrees (17 plus the 3 degree slope) What you've done is prove a shot MUST have come from Dal-Tex to enter at a SBT angle thru JFK.... which of course is unacceptable to the WCR and if you look at Altgens 6 you see an open window on the 2nd floor behind the fire-escape.... Plus the bullet was moving RIGHT to LEFT... how far to the LEFT did the bullet travel between JFK's throat and JC's armpit given the extreme R2L angle and where was JC sitting? how far to the LEFT and BELOW was JC's injuries? The SBT is impossible Mike.... It was then and is now AN INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE..... Plus, we show you the angles right here - as I did before... and asked that you draw an entrance and exit location that conforms to the SBT.... Burkley said the bullet entered at T3.... which is even lower than the throat.... and HUMES/FBI tells us the bullet only went in an inch or so and PROBABLY fell out due to external cardiac massage. When/where did THAT bullet fall out and disappear to?

Nice job Mike... Quote a post from DVP who posts a letter from GMACK... this is YOU THINKING? Hi Dave, So folks want to know about "missing" initials on CE399? The evidence is pretty straightforward, beginning with CD7, p 288: http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=330106, which reports receipt of the bullet from Rowley the night of the assassination and that both Frazier and Todd then etched their initials on the nose of the bullet. There is no evidence, or reason to suspect, that this did not happen. Then, four months later on March 31, Frazier testified that the same bullet no longer had everyone's initials because a stain obscured part of it and some of the nose had been scraped off by the FBI lab for testing (3H428): Will try again, slowly.... ROWLEY was in DC, he is in charge of the Secret Service... TODD was given CE399 by Rowley, in WASHINGTON DC TODD gives FRASIER the bullet IN WASHINGTON DC Tomlinson, Wright, Johnson, and Rowley ROWLEY COULD NOT IDENTIFY THE BULLET as the one he rec'd from Johnson.... Yet TODD tells us that CE399, with his and Frasier's and "others" initials, IS IN FACT THE BULLET HE REC'D from ROWLEY If Rowley cannot ID ce399 as the bullet he GOT from Johnson, yet Todd CAN ID CE399 as the bullet he got from ROWLEY ... wait for it..... Where did Rowley get THE ce399 he handed to Todd if not from Johnson? and to address you other link - which is a link to something you actually wrote.... REALLY? CE399 is pointed? THIS is a pointed bullet as compared to the FMJ bullet below and the one pictured at your link....? And this is what you post to PROVE that CE399 was in Dallas? When you prove the opposite with this post... This proves that the bullet, the POINTED BULLET TOMLINSON IDS LATER was the bullet he gave WRIGHT, which WRIGHT gave to JOHNSON and which JOHNSON gave to ROWLEY. It is only when ROWLEY give a bullet to TODD that it becomes the CE399 in evidence.... How is this not obvious to you, and your mentor DVP? If CE399 was not in Dallas, which you cannot prove it was, it is a completely fabricated item of evidence with the sole purpose of incriminating Oswald while laughing at the USA for how gullible we are.... I'm now fully convinced, like LEE and the others here... you are a fraud and a xxxxx with nothing better to do... I pity you that you have nothing better to do with your time or life but be a disruption, a gnat on a bull's ass, a xxxxx

Just cause it's fun to see if you'll EVER post anything of substance... #1 WHAT EVIDENCE puts CE399 in Dallas Mike? Let alone thru JFK. You are aware that the only initials to authenticate the chain of custody BEGINS with FBI Agent Frasier in DC... right? and that Frasier basically REMOVES ALL HUMAN DEBRIS FROM THE BULLET THEREBY DESTROYING ANY CHANCE TO SEE WHO THAT BLOOD EVIDENCE MIGHT BELONG TO Mr. EISENBERG - Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr. Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in the laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. It was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it actually would not have been necessary. Mr. EISENBERG - Is that true on both fragments? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. EISENBERG - You also mentioned there was blood or some other substance on the bullet marked 399. Is this an off-hand determination, or was there a test to determine what the substance was? Mr. FRAZIER - No, there was no test made of the materials. Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis. Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way. Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it? Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet Cause we wouldn't want to test and type the blood on these bullets and find out ???? #2 If CE399 is indicative of the ammo used in the other two shots that were claimed to have occurred.... why did it leave fragments in the brain too small to even be removed, when the bullet was DESIGNED not to fragment unless fired at ridiculously high velocities Any reason one bullet remains pristine, while the other obliterated? (hint: two different types of bullets) Mike... you are so far out of your league here it is humorous to watch you flounder around as if you have something to contribute or clarify. CE399 was not in Dallas... unless you have someting that proves it was... you'd be the first

Mike... if you actually arrived WITH A MESSAGE, that would be one thing... all you have is some opinion and the ability to stomp your feet and hold your breath until you get your way... you know, like a child. If you are here with a message, then WIN ONE already Mike.... The NPIC and LIFE magazine looked carefully at this film... agree? You are stating that JC is shot right around z222/223... agree? Why is it that neither LIFE nor the NPIC found a shot occurring between 213 and 242? How is it possible to have "Frames on which Shots occur" that do not match with the LIFE analysis? Did LIFE actually see a shot at Z190... or did they simply work backward from 312 and figure out WHEN the shots HAD TO BE? and what do you have to impeach the testimony of the man who was actually hit? Is this still the Mike Rago opinion hour or do you have the BALLS to defend your position with evidence and authentication rather than... "I think...." Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally? Governor CONNALLY. The second one. Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir? Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot, In the first place, don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything. It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot. Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot? Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all. Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. btw - here are the zframes LIFE/NPIC says shots may occur... Do you see any shots other than 312?

David David.... Like CE399, the tramps in the photo have been shown NOT to be the ones identified... but why let things like facts, evidence and proof stand in the way of your propaganda mission... right? Except the REAL tramps were booked and spent 3 days in jail.... whereas the tramps in the photo were all released that afternoon... Chambers tell us they let them all go... after an initial discussion... and for the life of him cannot understandhow his name got onto their arrest reports.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312 page 3, 2nd paragraph http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 page 3 2nd paragraph as well states that DOYLE, one of the people YOU SAY was one of the tramps arrested... tells us that they were booked and sentenced to 6 days in jail yet only stayed for 3.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 page 5 - Wise telling us how smelly and dirty these men were even though they said they had gone to a mission, showered and eaten before being captured....

Was curious whether there was any rhyme or reason to the VC numbering system Waldman devised to track rifles..... The question is how these serial numbers were transfered to the master VC sheet... C2766 was assigned VC836.... vc 834, 835, 837, 838 are all from different cartons....with the highest numbered carton packing slip, 4376, containing VC#'s Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the rifles? Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer. This seems to suggest that the Serial numbers are assigned a VC number upon ARRIVAL - as this # is what Kleins uses to TRACK THEIR RIFLE UNTIL SOLD. If you are opening carton after carton and putting these rifles into Kleins inventory, how is it that the sequential VC numbers do not come close to matching items even on the same packing slip? and finally - to my point that I refuse to let drop.... At least ONE OF THESE RIFLES had to have been sold prior to VC#836/C2766 - yet the records have been saved in such a manner as we cannot confirm or refute whether Kleins shipped any of these other rifles to anyone over the previous 6 months... WE cannot see the records of the shipping companies or any other entitiy coming in contact with Kleins and their shipping of FC rifles in place of C20-T750.... The Money order is very suspect and the weight of this shipment makes it IMPOSSIBLE that these were 40" 7.5lb rifles.... (each carton holding a rifle weighed just under 1lb, the master shipping crate - made of wood and strong enough to hold 750lbs of rifle ALSO weighed something)... So we have 100-7.5lb rifles, 100-.8lb cartons which ALONE weigh close to 850lbs... Any reason why a shipper would UNDER WEIGH a shipment they get paid to ship? the 36" rifle weighed 6.5lbs... plus cartons and crate equates to 750lbs.... So were the packing slips created BEFORE or AFTER the rifles arrived at Kleins to include C2766? and please equate the "10 MODEL NO." 38 E to a MC model.... FBI D-178 shows that 288 cartons of "38 E" rifles are enclosed with 170 "91-E" and 62 "38-I" yet when rifles are removed from inventory they are listed as 38 E 91 I... after the first batch, 170 cases, is removed by Rupp on 8/29/62 I still contend that we are not allowed to see other Kleins orders for C20-T750 since not a single one was shipped a rifle from this list of FC rifles.... otherwise our FBI would have printed a whole batch to show the PATTERN established... No orders at all in the records makes it impossible to know what Kleins was doing with their FC rifles and C20-T750 orders... convenient, right?

Nice start Mike.... Tomlinson cannot positively ID Wright? Nope SA Johnson? Nope Cheif Rowley? Nope again... Only Todd says thatwhat Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier and was CE399... No one in Dallas can confirm it as the bullet found.... only becomes CE399, the MAGIC BULLET, in DC why is that Mike?

I typed up a response and then lost it... We have SS docs that talk about bullets that disappear We have reports that prove CE399 was not in Dallas and added after the fact as evidence and the FBI/SS would NEVER TAMPER WITH THIS IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, right? Cause I see you have 100% proof that a blood soluble flechette was used and that the SS/FBI did not simply make bullets go away? when in thie report below, from that day, tells us the SS has in their possession two bullets.... and one of them is directly linked to JFK's headshot... So the bullet to the head, that the SS has in their possession, disappears... and you conclude that instead of a fragment exiting the throat, as was seen in THE autopsy report on Jan 27th and then that too was disappeared since it was inconsistent with the SBT.... it was a soluble bullet carrying a paralyzing toxin... cause the thenology existed at the time.... I repeat... the doctors asked about soluble bullets because 1) they were either in on the alteration and helping point in other directions or 2) they could not conceive of the SS/FBI or anyone altering the body and removing these bullets before hand... or the SS/FBI tampering with evidence.... Humes was a good military man... but documentation doesn't lie, too often... and this as well as another document describes a bullet When we have photos of blond man picking up a bullet from the grass by the manhole cover

Do whatever gives you the most jollies Mike... I could give care less.... Yet you seem unable to prove your points in any manner on any thread and my (and other) posts continue to show that... so instead of IGNORE... which you obviously can't seem to do either How about PROVING SOMETHING within your theory? and then, Google the name Audrey Bell and read about yet another bullet... or what Tomlinson actually said about the shape of the bullet he held... anything is better than you throwing it against the wasll and hoping it sticks No, I am saying CE399 was NEVER in Dallas.... and these people prove it... when everyone up to the agent who got the bullet from Chief Rowley and supposedly gave it to Frasier cannot ID the bullet, yet Todd confirms that what Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier... Who do you supposed gave CE399 to either Rowley, Todd, or Frasier... cause it did NOT come from Dallas... but this one did: Any idea where this second bullet is? Taking some advise from the others here would serve you well Mike... doing a little reserach BEFORE you commit to indefensible positions might help...

Yes, Mike... They shot the same bullet type thru a cadaver's wrist... the results in the WCR... and the 800lb Gorilla is not two wounds not bullets... it what did the SS do with the bullets they clima were in their possession the other 800lb Gorilla is WHERE did CE399 come from? Do you understand that if you shoot those bullets thru water... or cotton fiber, you get the same slight deformation... Look at the top of CE399... THAT was supposed to have shattered ribs and wrist AFTER passing thru JFK (Which Drs have already told you was impossible) and still have enough power to lodge in JC's leg... Plus, the men who handled what became CE399, ALL COULD NOT, WOULD NOT AUTHENTICATE THAT BULLET AS THE ONE THEY HANDLED... So how can CE399 be the SBT whan none of those who had it can identify it? One last question.... Here is what happen to a POINTED FMJ bullet at different speeds... the MC in evidence does not fire much past 2100fps.... So we would EXPECT the bullet to remain somewhat intact.... As you know... the headshot produced MANY very small particles of metal... and a sort of fog at the front top of the brain... ASK anyone familiar with FMJ and why they were designed... to NOT BREAK UP AT HIGH SPEEDS when traveling thru a body... a more human bullet since the wound was clean and there would be less infection and death for the injured... So why didn't the headshot just go thru and thru, like the SBT, and come out pristine - these were two bullets, from the same lot, from the same rifle... ACTING as if they were not.... Any ideas?

Problem being that neither LIFE nor NPIC found a shot between 213 and 242... That JFK was hit either at 190, 203 or 213... and JC says he was hit AFTER the first shot.... so does Nellie and then there's those pesky downward angles that don't add up.... You're getting close... DJ

If she didn't know what was wrong with him -- why would she pull him down? In a first-shot/kill-shot scenario the danger was that he'd only be winged, and like a good military man hit the deck. They could not assume a successful first-shot/kill-shot. Could they? There's a bigger point being lost here. This idea of a blood soluble strike came from the autopsists. That's not what I said Cliff.... I said that was all Jackie needed to do.... You don't think the soluble round shot could not have "nicked" or "winged" him and there would be NO CHANCE for a kill shot.... The FIRST SHOT, the unexpected shot, is the best chance for a kill shot... even a perfect paralyzing shot leaves room for some heroic action by someone around JFK... With no one infront of them, Greer's job was to get the heck out of there, Kellerman's SHOULD have gone thru hell and high water to cover his president... If anything, the stopping of the limo should have caused a few SS men to jump on JFK to protect him... Bolden tells us that probably wouldn't have happened in any scenario.... The autopsists were GUESSING cliff... they did not see a round in the body... so, not realizing that the body had altered, or actually taking part in the alterations themselves and that the bullets that SHOULD have been there, were no longer there and the FBI/SS would NEVER TAMPER WITH THIS IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, right? these "autopsists" were guessing as to what happened, and a soluble bullet made more sense at the time ... then what really happened - Humes/Boswell altered the wounds IMO Humes was trying to leave clues to clear his conscience... Amazing how "soluble bullet" makes more sense to you then the Secret Service disappearing evidence which it had in its hot little hands.... thanks to Palamara: The Secret Service was responsible for so much in this case, far more than most people know or suspect. To recap: 1) PROTECTION OF JFK; 2) PLANNING OF TEXAS TRIP; 3) INSIDE KNOWLEDGE OF JFK’S PERSONAL LIFE, NA-TIONAL SECURITY ISSUES; 4) PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE (INCLUDING WINDSHIELD); 5) JFK’S BODY AFTER DEATH---PRESENCE AT PARKLAND AND BETHESDA (AUTOPSY); 6) AIR FORCE 1 AND AIR FORCE 2; 7) C-130 TRANSPORT PLANE; 8) AUTOPSY X-RAYS/ PHOTOS; 9) AUTOPSY REPORTS; 10) JFK’S CLOTHING; 11) THREE PIECES OF SKULL; 12) CE399/ "MAGIC BULLET"; 13) RECORDINGS OF DALLAS POLICE RADIO; 14) PRIME ASSASSINATION WITNESSES; 15) INTERVIEWS OF TSBD WITNESSES; 16) INTERVIEWS OF PARKLAND DOCTORS; 17) TV, RADIO RECORDINGS OF PARKLAND DOCTORS; 18) CAPTIVITY OF AND INTERVIEWS WITH MARINA OSWALD, INCLUDING TRANSLATION; 19) FIRST REENACTMENTS & SURVEYS: 11/25,11/27, AND 12/5/63; 20) ASSASSINATION PHOTOS & FILMS.

Yo Mike... this really too hard for you to follow? The hypethetical that Specter introduces describes the SBT to a "T"... 45 degree downward entrance (ala Humes and the FBI report) Jones tells you to produce a hole like what we see, the bullet would have simply dropped out the front of the neck... Using the image I posted... wanna show us the SBT in action? or you gonna stick tail tween legs and shuffle off? ?? Personally, I do NOT subscribe to the ice bullet, flechette theory... when we have a perfectly 2or more perfectly logical explanations 1) What we see on the medical evidence is complete BS and not indicatvie of the injuries sustained.... there is evidence of another shot entering at the base of his neck per Lipsey, and I believe by Kellerman yet Specter botched the question so bad we are not sure... If the Lipsey entrance was there, a fragment could have exited the throat Mr. Rankin: Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time. We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent, since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the right of the backbone, which is below the place where the picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through. So that how it could turn, and -- Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a finger's length. Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said 2) While the hole in the windshield is still, imo, not a settled issue... I guess it takes reall hangers to shoot thru a windshield between 4 people in a moving vehicle.. Unless maybe the limo stopped... but that's not when we see the reaction to the throat... Shooting him to paralyze him, to me, makes no sense.... you run the risk of anyone, someone, coming to his aid... all Jackie needed to do was pull him down... Greer and the other SS agents, save Hill, appear frozen and doing anything BUT protecting JFK.... As others have put so well... JFK leaving Dallas alive was not acceptable... Dick Russell discusses conversations with men who say they too were ready to shoot JFK along the freeway route should he get out of DP alive (but that's another story for another thread).... I am NOT discounting your good work or your conclusions, just respectfully disagreeing at this point as the evidence used to reverse engineer the assassination is akin to being given an automobile and told to reverse engineer an elephant... the extant physical evidence CANNOT lead to an understanding of the assassination's physical realities.... As I've repeatedly held, the witnesses and non-government investigations, along with what was NOT edited out of the WCR testimonies will give you a much clearer picture of what occurred than ANY of the physical evidence... The physical evidence is a roadmap to the conspiracy... One only need follow it. DJ You're sadly mistaken. During the autopsy Humes probed the wound with his finger and found it shallow. Finck probed the wound properly with a metal probe and declared there was no lane of transit. And yet people still argue for the SBT! Answer to your question about 313... No. Mike... your "let's pretend" arguments remind me of Arlen Specter's Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? Just like you Mike... "Let's PRETEND" So our Mr Specter here is asking whether - IF YOU ASSUME THAT THE WOUND I AM DESCRIBING IS A WOUND OF EXIT, Would the hole be consistent with an EXIT wound? Is an EXIT WOUND (as Arlen described it and asks that you ASSUME it to be true), an EXIT WOUND? Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. Mr. SPECTER - Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it? Dr. JONES - Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. So what up here Mike? If the bullet was barely going fast enough to exit the front... how did it do all those things to JC? IT DIDN'T. Finally, if we assume Arlen's LET's PRETEND is fact... where is the EXIT POINT of a shot that HITS NOTHING, and ENTERS JFK's BACK wherever you want it to.... and travels downward at 45 degrees? (Hint: the bullet would have been shot from the moon, down thru JFK;s head, out his throat and basically down into the floor in front of JFK) But how about YOU do something other than offer your opinion.... Show us how a 45 degree shot does what you say it did....

Hey Jim... I've been talking with Armstrong and asked him if he tried to get those orders.... He told me that when he was there in the mid-90's they told him there was no such cannister of microfilm.. even though it was a WCR exhibit. ======= The above is a pretty simple question to answer, even for DVP.... only a fool would believe the HIDELL order was the only C20-T750 ordered in all those months... So we will assume a "yes" on Q1 2) Do you believe that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER? C'mon now Dave.... since there HAD to be other C20-T750 orders... did Waldman write the seriel # shipped on ALL of them? Would these seriel numbers be from the list of 99 other FC rifles? Waldman #4... or from a different type of rifle? STOP telling me what I think, and start telling us what you believe here.

A CTer who thinks LHO never ordered a rifle by mail order in '63 and who thinks ALL of the paperwork connected with that rifle purchase is fake and fraudulent is preaching to me about "logic". Oh, my weak bladder! Have at least some pity on it, will ya Davey! Let's try this in small, spoonsize bites for Mr Big Brain here.... David, 1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63? Simple yes or not will do