David Josephs

During Waldman's testimony he is shown FBI Item D-77, the microfilm record of the orders during THAT time period... and they find and print order 270502 It is my claim that we see no other Klein's orders that identify any one other rifle from the lot of 100 included with C2766 as SOLD on orders listing the Item # as C20-T750 as the LNers claim occurred for the Hidell order becasue there NEVER WERE ANY. I contend that every other order for C20-T750 was shipped something OTHER than M91/38FC rifles and that every order that was shipped an M91/38FC rifle shows us a completely different Item #. In fact, we are not shown a single other order where a M91/38FC was shipped to ANYONE, for either a C20-T750 order or an order for its item number either. Does D-77 exist other than as a photo of the film cannister from Cadigan Ex #1 http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0133a.htm So that we can see some of these other orders? Did no one EVER ASK to see where the other 99 rifles from the 10 packing lists wound up and on which orders? Thx DJ Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is. Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that---of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI. Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI? Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963. Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation. Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints? Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22. Mr. WALDMAN. Yes. (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.) Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment? Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification purposes. Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. Mr. BELIN. And does it show arts' serial number or control number? Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766.

Hey Mike... maybe you can explain something then... As one looks at the photos, one is hard pressed to find anyone with that black an appearance as this person holding the baby in white... The other photos show her to have light colored clothing on... and we can see people also in light colored clothing waving at the top of Elm... THEY are not turned completely BLACK o nthe side facing away from the sun, and furthermore, the front of the "baby" shows no indication of being in the shade or in any shadow at all... the contrast between mother and baby is literally black and white... which seems to me, impossible. I am posting this as an example of what one can find with shadows, light, foliage and an imagination... There is of course no one kneeling there... but making it look like there is is not hard... Plus, she would have to come from somewhere and go somewhere afterward... Sitzman does not talk about a woman and baby, just a boy and girl. Now whether what we are seeing is a trick of the eye or a desire to see what's not there, IDK, but the events as described by G Arnold, Sitzman, Hill, Craig, Weitzman do not support the conclusion that it was a mother and baby.

The reasons you think we should believe McClelland saw a wound on the far back of Kennedy's head are the very reasons I don't believe he saw such a wound: his earliest statements. "The cause of death was due to massive head and brain injury from a gunshot wound of the left temple." Dr. McClelland's report on the death of President Kennedy, written on 11-22-63. "I am fully satisfied that the two bullets that hit him were from behind." Dr. Robert McClelland, as quoted by Richard Dudman in the 12-18-63 St. Louis Post-Dispatch. If you know of any statements by McClelland made prior to his Warren Commission testimony, in which he indicated he saw an exit wound on the far back of Kennedy's head, I'd appreciate your bringing them to my attention. Wasn't McClelland's report coroborrated by the Father who gave the last rites? I believe it was mentioned in JFK/Unspeakable that he saw a great and terrible wound over the left eye... and Mike.. both Zap and Sitzman tell us how Zap films the limo coming down Houton and turning onto Elm.. no breaks, no stops... the mathematics of the corner turn, frame #'s and other films that also do NOT capture the extra wide turn as described by Truly and the fact that the transition from a camera at full stop to instant start and instantly having a perfect interprocket image EXACTLY on the frame lines seems a bit too much to swallow,,, There is no start up lightened frames as we see on Z001... looks much more like a splice and reflim than a start/stop of the camera.

Thanks for the confirmation... I've tried and can't see them in anything... And I agree, Sitzman IS talking about the Kennedy's coming round Houston onto Elm... yet the Z film splices to them already on Elm... It is my opinion, based on work by Chris Davidson and others, that the corner turn was removed to align all the films... I've written about this before...this was why the frame numbers were determined by working BACKWARD from 312... and NPIC could not understand how LIFE determined the frames for the first and second shots... Do you know if there was mention of all that broken glass while all these people are milling around? and it looks to me that there is still a paper bag with a bottle in it... Does it makes sense that they would literally throwing the bottle on the ground and make it explode?

Doesn't her statement about when Zap starts filming... "just before they came around the corner" at :42 help support Zaps memory about filming the entire turn? re:BDM and the kids... Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence. Thompson: Darn right. I know. I've seen the films too. Now, to get to this area between the stockade fence and the cement abutment, or small mall: Did you turn after the shot to look in this general area? Sitzman: Yes. Thompson: And did you see anyone in this area? Sitzman: No, just the two colored people running back. Thompson: I see. They were already ... they'd gotten up from the bench and were now running around into the gap made between the stockade fence and the pergola. Sitzman: Either in the gap there or back in the alcove. I don't recall which way they went. I saw ... I heard the bottles crash, and of course I looked that way, to my right, right away, and they were getting up and running towards the back. And I turned back to see if there was anything in the front street, because then they didn't affect me one way or another. Thompson: To see if anything else was going on. Had you seen them sitting on the bench before you stood next to them? Sitzman: Oh year, yes. Everybody is ... oh, ten or fifteen minutes before, everybody was milling around down there, trying to find a place to stand and everything, and I know when we went over to get up on the marble thing, they were already sitting there. Seeing the height of the wall and the bench... anyone sitting there SHOULD be seen in either Betzner, Willis, Moorman, ??? at least the tops of their heads if Sitzman can see them... Are you aware of ANY photo or image that shows these two people at that bench?

Couple of concerns with your conclusions Mike... 1) If it was a high to low shot from behind... why are the fragments leading away from SOLID BONE at the back of the head, when there should be an opening for an entrance wound at the back..? 2) Looking at the following images... the pre/post of JFK's skull shows there would be bone where the xray shows it's gone... if the skull is gone there, what is holding JFK's face and forehead up? and finally... can you explain the HUGE difference in the headwound from Parkland to Bethesda? What started as a small temple wound and a 3-4 inch blowout in the right rear becomes 3/4 of his skull gone... based on Boswell and the xrays...

Thanks Josh... interesting. I am of the opinion that copy #184, the missing copy, was of the original film and ultimately becomes the basis for the existing copies... this MAY be the copy Max refers to that is sent to DC, or is taken directly to Hawkeye which becomes the "original" SS agent Bill Smith delivers to NPIC. I am suprised this hasn't gotten more attention... Max referring to Zapruder's as the "master" as opposed to the "original" is also interesting to me. If it was not #184, then at some point the in camera original is altered and duplicated onto K2 film stock and PRESENTED as the original, while the actual original is ??? DJ

Thanks Josh... This is Belin quoting Rather... or relating second hand stories from those that heard Rather say so? Mrs. Zapruder says the SS takes the film THAT NIGHT... There is no evidentary record of Rather being involved with Zap, Sorrels, Phillips or the two DPD cops that escorted them... Does Belin offer anything to coroborrate? DJ

Indeed Karl... I believe THIS is why the turn was cut out of the Z film and is not available in its entirety... the problem remains TOWNER... other than the splice AT THE CORNER... it seems to be smooth... Mr. TRULY. That is right. And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. Mr. BELIN. All right.

So what are you saying Mike? Greer slows the limo even further FOR the headshots... then accelerates away as described by the witnesses... that's how Hill can reach the limo so fast and has to hang on for dear life afterward.... and then there are the motorcops who basically STARE at the GK right after the shots

It seems to me that the limo traveling at 2-3 mph for a couple seconds would APPEAR as if the limo stopped from a variety of angles... yet it very possibly just keeps rolling... and to me, the image on the left shows that JFK's head may have moved ever so slightly toward the bullet from the front, but not as a response to a shot from the back and right Regarding Greer avoiding a frontal assassin... the composite I made showing Greer looking back starting at 303 makes it obvious he was not concerned with aNYTHING in front of him... the head shot comes AFTER the limo has slowed to a crawl... AFTER Hill is able to reach a car supposedly going 8+mph, in 2-3 steps and AFTER he stares at JFK until his head is blown off... Given what Kellerman does upon arrival at Bethesda (leaves Greer at the wheel just waiting at the entrance while he RUNS to the morgue... this is just before 7pm) and how that evening is orchestrated... I get the impression that Greer was betwen a rock and hard place.. There is simply no justification, after the turn onto Elm, for Greer to EVER stop accellerating... that he hits the brakes and slows the car to 2-3mph is very damning .... 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

Hey there Mike... Something you might look at a bit closer in this gif... the movement of Hill and his ability to get from one vehicle to the other in 2-4 STEPS... Which feet are hitting the ground and how Which foot jumps up on to the back of the limo and how, if traveling at anything more than a 2-4mph could he possibly overtake the limo? Given the FACT he starts by the driver and takes less than 2 seconds to get there... Soemthing is not right there... he accelerates away from the Queen Mary... the limo barely moves away from him.. I'd suggest driving with windows/door open at 2,4,6,8,10 mph... those vehilce look like they are moving at WALKING SPEED, about 3 mph... for Hill to accomplish this... 2-3 mph APPEARS like the limo is standing still... DJ ps... if you;ve EVER driven at 3mph, even 8 mph... and imagined that as the PROTECTIVE SPEED OF THE SS for POTUS... shock and horror SHOULD be your response... Greer, if not guilty of failure to do his job, should have been reprimanded for his driving alone... 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

Very interesting thought Richard about them all being "bad guys" yet a variety of DPD men ID themselves as being in those pictures... I am requoting the original post as many of the questions are answered there.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 page 6... Townsend, Stepars(?), Macky claim they are in photos #5 and #3 respectively... DOYLE states that they were SENTENCED to 6 days in jail yet only served 2-3 and were released... Wise on the other hand, has these three paraded to Decker and then released THAT DAY... Could the DPD be so corrupted that they literally assisted in the escape of the RR yard team? Or was the parade an opportunity to yet have even more accomplices escape? We need more info on CHAMBERS, MIDDLETON, VAUGHN, HARKNESS... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 this report is crucial as it completely contradicts the written evidence and testimony of these men.... The rpoerts of Wise are amazing in the lack of security related to these men... no cuffs, escorted around, to and from Decker/Fritz in a car with onoly 1 policeman where Wise tells us that one of the suspects sits next to him, also uncuffed.... not exactly worried about these guys... are they? Would there happen to be any "interviews" of men in jail that weekend WITH these tramps? They might have heard a pretty good stroy from these OTHER tramps DJ

Did the Warren Commission knowingly cover up a conspiracy? Glenn, When Allen Dulles withholds the FACTS about CIA/MAFIA assassination attempts on Castro - does this not go a long way in knowingly covering-up one of the ALTERNATIVES to Oswald=Lone Nut? One of the KEY ELEMENTS in determining whether Cuba, Castro or related COULD have been involved, and therefore takes attention away and adds reasonable doubt to the Oswald case? Is this not KNOWINGLY covering up a conspiracy? The conspiracy to assassinate Castro.. which, at the time of the WC, would have direct bearing on the JFK assassination Especially after Castro's warning whcih also losses meaning without knowledge of the attempts on his life... When Warren refuses to even LOOK at the files on Oswald.... and is told by LBJ to head the Commission due to what he knows about Mexico City... which is DIRECT EVIDENCE OF A CONSPIRACY to kill JFK, and that Warren MUST HELP AVOID WWIII... If Dulles, Warren, Hoover and LBJ all know that there is direct evidence of CIA assassination attempts AND Oswald enlisting help or working thru communist countries... How again is this NOT the WC knowingly covering up a conspiracy... infact they knowingly covered up MANY conspiracies.... Or am I missing the point too?

David, Governmental investigations and inquiries SHOULD NOT REQUIRE BELIEF - the evidence and conclusions presented SHOULD MAKE LOGICAL SENSE and be supportable. That YOU NEED TO BELIEVE in these reports is probably the beginning of your problems... We BELIEVE in G^d, we BELIEVE in concepts... We PROVE innocence/guilt with authenticated evidence... got any? American Politics rule #1 - Don't Believe ANYTHING until it has been officially denied (from one of DVP's "Gov't inquiries")..... C. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy. 1. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. 2. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. 3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved. 4. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual membersmay have been involved. 5. The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

David, the SBT does not work because an object cannot exit at a point HIGHER than the entry, when traveling DOWNWARD at 17+ degrees and NOT striking any bone... NOt having a reasonable explanation that YOU like does not give the SBT any more validity... it simple means that YOU do not accept other explanations... The responsibility os on YOU david, not us... YOU claim the SBT works... yet your supporting evidence proves the opposite... Maybe if you took the time to make your case, instead of tautological reasoning, you'd have a SBT to defend... rather than one that trips you up each and every time you try to.

No worries Dawn.... from the macro, people are people with their flaws.... mega wealthy "people's" flaws simply affect more "other" people.... add the desire to organize and have an overriding purpose to control and IMO, we have the core group that JFK's PEACE would have affected the most. Hrnce they had the most to both gain and lose.... All the other players were just that... players on stages at so many levels and inter-dependencies one gets the feel;ing that we, they nor anyone actually knew what was going on... Peace DJ

The above statement by Don Jeffries is nearly as absurd as this one by the late conspiracy icon Mr. Weisberg. This question that I posed yesterday is worth repeating again today -- Why do so many conspiracy theorists fight the "Oswald Did It" evidence so vigorously? The only possible way to make Oswald an "innocent patsy" is to either totally ignore the evidence against him (for two murders, not just one)...or for the CTers to fall back on the lame claim of "All the evidence is fake". Because the only way that Oswald can be innocent of killing both JFK & Tippit is for all of the evidence to be manufactured. And just exactly how likely is that (even in a CTer dream world)? Evidence that can be AUTHENTICATED does not support that conclusion David. Evidence that CANNOT BE AUTHENTICATED does support that conclusion. If you want to conclude "Oswald did it" you have to present supporting evidence which could pass the requirements a court of law would expect and demand. You fail to do so repeatedly... the "commissions" and "committees" which have presided over these "investigations" did not have anywhere NEAR the evidentary expectations even your local traffic court would expect. So David, as you seem to be asked in most every case and discussion... present and authenticate the evidence that the WCR used to reach its 12 conclusions, that the subsequent investigation used to reach their conclusions.... and just present a case that is not so easily refuted by the same evidence you use to make it...

The possibility also remains that those "in the know" would not be concerned even if Lee had run out into the street and hit JFK with a bat.... the EVIDENCE was not going to show him visible in DP, the witnesses would all be "wrong" ala the GK... I really do not think we grasp the magnitude of arrogance related to whatever "evidence" was to be gathered that day..... Think about it... they REMOVED a 2 second stopping of the limo during the headshots... Evidence of more than a couple shots the FACT that men showed fake SS credentials in DP immediately afterward.... Wouldn't you suppose that whoever was using Oswald would use these "weaknesses" to their advantage... talker, arrogant, disrupter, etc.... and NOT be worried about the evidence.... DJ

And miss out on this? and don't miss the FBI/DPD wind up Doll... pull the cord and listen as it takes back every Mistake about Oswald's innocence ever uttered. you think they'll have a 21 gun salute or just the 3 that fired that day for accuracy?

Thank so much Don... great explanation... Although... the earlier Moorman photo does show considerable background blur.... it still seems to have been able to sharpen up what should have been very blurry... Cheers DJ

As we watch the Zfilm, we see Moorman pan as the limo passes her (not my gif btw) Shouldn't we be seeing the same effect in Moorman as we expect in Zapruder? - where either the limo is in focus and the background blurred or vice versa? Or is the polaroid fast enough to freeze the entire image in focus? One would think that with as many things moving during that photo, more would be out of focus... like we see in the previous Moorman photo or in reality, they were moving v - e - r - y slowly so there was no motion to blur.... thanks DJ

Typing a little too fast... Not Lee, but Harvey looked like a real partier... let me ask YOU... is there any "authenticated" EVIDENCE that LHO actually did ANYTHING ?

Trask is the source for most if not all this information…. According to the Lancer Timeline, Trask-120; Wrone-26; Zavada Study 1 “In the morning of 11/23 the FBI view a 16mm version at KODAK….” this could EASILY be 0184…. unless you have anything related to a different 16mm showing? and as you said – they only had 3 rolls of 8mm… why again couldn’t 0184 be a 16mm copy of 0183 that was left at KODAK? Everything I have ever read says there was no break in production of 185,186,187 and 0183… and there is no explanation for the missing number… To continue: Phillips sends this note to Rowley: which suggests the film sent is an 8mm 50+ foot film including Z’s family… according to Zavada’s study… only SS copy #1/0187 meets this requirement… SS #2/0186 – was spliced and looped…. 0183 and 0185 go to LIFE and Zapruder is not left with a copy at all? … According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder. Note: Disregard personnel scenes shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date. The third print is forwarded. Zapruder is said to have taken the original AND BEST FIRST DAY COPY home with him at 11pm 11/22. Let’s say 0183 and 0185 (cause 0186 was DEFINITELY the one given to the FBI and the other copies do not have the copy # on them, only the 0183 reproduction) 0183 – the original – is taken by Stolley on the morning of 11/23 0185 – the BEST COPY – is taken by Stolley on the afternoon of 11/25 (author cites an email from you on 5/14/10) ================================== According to Phillips’ letter to Rowley, Sorrels has 2 copies – 0186 and 0187, with the THIRD PRINT FORWARDED?? Which print would THAT be? ===================================== 9pm 11/22 - Zap and Schwarz drive to DPD HQ, find Sorrels who then asks Zap and Schwartz that 2 COPIES BE taken to Max Philips Zap and Schwartz find Max, give him TWO COPIES and retains none (Zap is supposed to have 0183 AND 0185 that night already, and now also 0186 and 0187 from Sorrels to give to Max) If 0186 is given to Kelley in the morning… in Tink’s Six Seconds, page 311-312 Max sends 0187 to Rowley and retains 0186 to give back to Sorrels… Trask p120 0186 is given to Kelley on 11/23 who in turn gives it to FBI Bookhout to Barrett to Shanklin – HOW DOES KELLEY HAVE A COPY to give to the FBI – From Max or Sorrels? When did this transfer take place? 0187 HAS to be the copy that Philips sends to Rowley BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SECOND PRINT – NOT the THIRD PRINT… How can Max forward THE THIRD PRINT 0187… when LIFE has 0183, Zapruder has 0185, MAX/KELLEY has 0186 11/22 while the FBI has 0186 on 11/23 FROM Kelley, and Sorrels IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE been given TWO PRINTS, this date? Can anyone explain that for me?

Around 1962, Hunter was an early volunteer test subject (along with Ken Kesey) for psychedelic chemicals at Stanford University's research covertly sponsored by the CIA in their MKULTRA program. Thanks Martin... was sure it was at Harvard though... but Stanford makes more sense.... Whose "test program" was it at Stanford? From what I remember, Bear got the recipe and made it himself... lots and lots of it... there were an awful lot of underground chemists at the time... But I will look more deeply into it DJ