David Josephs

Thanks Josh... This is Belin quoting Rather... or relating second hand stories from those that heard Rather say so? Mrs. Zapruder says the SS takes the film THAT NIGHT... There is no evidentary record of Rather being involved with Zap, Sorrels, Phillips or the two DPD cops that escorted them... Does Belin offer anything to coroborrate? DJ

Indeed Karl... I believe THIS is why the turn was cut out of the Z film and is not available in its entirety... the problem remains TOWNER... other than the splice AT THE CORNER... it seems to be smooth... Mr. TRULY. That is right. And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. Mr. BELIN. All right.

So what are you saying Mike? Greer slows the limo even further FOR the headshots... then accelerates away as described by the witnesses... that's how Hill can reach the limo so fast and has to hang on for dear life afterward.... and then there are the motorcops who basically STARE at the GK right after the shots

It seems to me that the limo traveling at 2-3 mph for a couple seconds would APPEAR as if the limo stopped from a variety of angles... yet it very possibly just keeps rolling... and to me, the image on the left shows that JFK's head may have moved ever so slightly toward the bullet from the front, but not as a response to a shot from the back and right Regarding Greer avoiding a frontal assassin... the composite I made showing Greer looking back starting at 303 makes it obvious he was not concerned with aNYTHING in front of him... the head shot comes AFTER the limo has slowed to a crawl... AFTER Hill is able to reach a car supposedly going 8+mph, in 2-3 steps and AFTER he stares at JFK until his head is blown off... Given what Kellerman does upon arrival at Bethesda (leaves Greer at the wheel just waiting at the entrance while he RUNS to the morgue... this is just before 7pm) and how that evening is orchestrated... I get the impression that Greer was betwen a rock and hard place.. There is simply no justification, after the turn onto Elm, for Greer to EVER stop accellerating... that he hits the brakes and slows the car to 2-3mph is very damning .... 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

Hey there Mike... Something you might look at a bit closer in this gif... the movement of Hill and his ability to get from one vehicle to the other in 2-4 STEPS... Which feet are hitting the ground and how Which foot jumps up on to the back of the limo and how, if traveling at anything more than a 2-4mph could he possibly overtake the limo? Given the FACT he starts by the driver and takes less than 2 seconds to get there... Soemthing is not right there... he accelerates away from the Queen Mary... the limo barely moves away from him.. I'd suggest driving with windows/door open at 2,4,6,8,10 mph... those vehilce look like they are moving at WALKING SPEED, about 3 mph... for Hill to accomplish this... 2-3 mph APPEARS like the limo is standing still... DJ ps... if you;ve EVER driven at 3mph, even 8 mph... and imagined that as the PROTECTIVE SPEED OF THE SS for POTUS... shock and horror SHOULD be your response... Greer, if not guilty of failure to do his job, should have been reprimanded for his driving alone... 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD.

Very interesting thought Richard about them all being "bad guys" yet a variety of DPD men ID themselves as being in those pictures... I am requoting the original post as many of the questions are answered there.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 page 6... Townsend, Stepars(?), Macky claim they are in photos #5 and #3 respectively... DOYLE states that they were SENTENCED to 6 days in jail yet only served 2-3 and were released... Wise on the other hand, has these three paraded to Decker and then released THAT DAY... Could the DPD be so corrupted that they literally assisted in the escape of the RR yard team? Or was the parade an opportunity to yet have even more accomplices escape? We need more info on CHAMBERS, MIDDLETON, VAUGHN, HARKNESS... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 this report is crucial as it completely contradicts the written evidence and testimony of these men.... The rpoerts of Wise are amazing in the lack of security related to these men... no cuffs, escorted around, to and from Decker/Fritz in a car with onoly 1 policeman where Wise tells us that one of the suspects sits next to him, also uncuffed.... not exactly worried about these guys... are they? Would there happen to be any "interviews" of men in jail that weekend WITH these tramps? They might have heard a pretty good stroy from these OTHER tramps DJ

Did the Warren Commission knowingly cover up a conspiracy? Glenn, When Allen Dulles withholds the FACTS about CIA/MAFIA assassination attempts on Castro - does this not go a long way in knowingly covering-up one of the ALTERNATIVES to Oswald=Lone Nut? One of the KEY ELEMENTS in determining whether Cuba, Castro or related COULD have been involved, and therefore takes attention away and adds reasonable doubt to the Oswald case? Is this not KNOWINGLY covering up a conspiracy? The conspiracy to assassinate Castro.. which, at the time of the WC, would have direct bearing on the JFK assassination Especially after Castro's warning whcih also losses meaning without knowledge of the attempts on his life... When Warren refuses to even LOOK at the files on Oswald.... and is told by LBJ to head the Commission due to what he knows about Mexico City... which is DIRECT EVIDENCE OF A CONSPIRACY to kill JFK, and that Warren MUST HELP AVOID WWIII... If Dulles, Warren, Hoover and LBJ all know that there is direct evidence of CIA assassination attempts AND Oswald enlisting help or working thru communist countries... How again is this NOT the WC knowingly covering up a conspiracy... infact they knowingly covered up MANY conspiracies.... Or am I missing the point too?

David, Governmental investigations and inquiries SHOULD NOT REQUIRE BELIEF - the evidence and conclusions presented SHOULD MAKE LOGICAL SENSE and be supportable. That YOU NEED TO BELIEVE in these reports is probably the beginning of your problems... We BELIEVE in G^d, we BELIEVE in concepts... We PROVE innocence/guilt with authenticated evidence... got any? American Politics rule #1 - Don't Believe ANYTHING until it has been officially denied (from one of DVP's "Gov't inquiries")..... C. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy. 1. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. 2. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. 3. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved. 4. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual membersmay have been involved. 5. The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

David, the SBT does not work because an object cannot exit at a point HIGHER than the entry, when traveling DOWNWARD at 17+ degrees and NOT striking any bone... NOt having a reasonable explanation that YOU like does not give the SBT any more validity... it simple means that YOU do not accept other explanations... The responsibility os on YOU david, not us... YOU claim the SBT works... yet your supporting evidence proves the opposite... Maybe if you took the time to make your case, instead of tautological reasoning, you'd have a SBT to defend... rather than one that trips you up each and every time you try to.

No worries Dawn.... from the macro, people are people with their flaws.... mega wealthy "people's" flaws simply affect more "other" people.... add the desire to organize and have an overriding purpose to control and IMO, we have the core group that JFK's PEACE would have affected the most. Hrnce they had the most to both gain and lose.... All the other players were just that... players on stages at so many levels and inter-dependencies one gets the feel;ing that we, they nor anyone actually knew what was going on... Peace DJ

The above statement by Don Jeffries is nearly as absurd as this one by the late conspiracy icon Mr. Weisberg. This question that I posed yesterday is worth repeating again today -- Why do so many conspiracy theorists fight the "Oswald Did It" evidence so vigorously? The only possible way to make Oswald an "innocent patsy" is to either totally ignore the evidence against him (for two murders, not just one)...or for the CTers to fall back on the lame claim of "All the evidence is fake". Because the only way that Oswald can be innocent of killing both JFK & Tippit is for all of the evidence to be manufactured. And just exactly how likely is that (even in a CTer dream world)? Evidence that can be AUTHENTICATED does not support that conclusion David. Evidence that CANNOT BE AUTHENTICATED does support that conclusion. If you want to conclude "Oswald did it" you have to present supporting evidence which could pass the requirements a court of law would expect and demand. You fail to do so repeatedly... the "commissions" and "committees" which have presided over these "investigations" did not have anywhere NEAR the evidentary expectations even your local traffic court would expect. So David, as you seem to be asked in most every case and discussion... present and authenticate the evidence that the WCR used to reach its 12 conclusions, that the subsequent investigation used to reach their conclusions.... and just present a case that is not so easily refuted by the same evidence you use to make it...

The possibility also remains that those "in the know" would not be concerned even if Lee had run out into the street and hit JFK with a bat.... the EVIDENCE was not going to show him visible in DP, the witnesses would all be "wrong" ala the GK... I really do not think we grasp the magnitude of arrogance related to whatever "evidence" was to be gathered that day..... Think about it... they REMOVED a 2 second stopping of the limo during the headshots... Evidence of more than a couple shots the FACT that men showed fake SS credentials in DP immediately afterward.... Wouldn't you suppose that whoever was using Oswald would use these "weaknesses" to their advantage... talker, arrogant, disrupter, etc.... and NOT be worried about the evidence.... DJ

And miss out on this? and don't miss the FBI/DPD wind up Doll... pull the cord and listen as it takes back every Mistake about Oswald's innocence ever uttered. you think they'll have a 21 gun salute or just the 3 that fired that day for accuracy?

Thank so much Don... great explanation... Although... the earlier Moorman photo does show considerable background blur.... it still seems to have been able to sharpen up what should have been very blurry... Cheers DJ

As we watch the Zfilm, we see Moorman pan as the limo passes her (not my gif btw) Shouldn't we be seeing the same effect in Moorman as we expect in Zapruder? - where either the limo is in focus and the background blurred or vice versa? Or is the polaroid fast enough to freeze the entire image in focus? One would think that with as many things moving during that photo, more would be out of focus... like we see in the previous Moorman photo or in reality, they were moving v - e - r - y slowly so there was no motion to blur.... thanks DJ

Typing a little too fast... Not Lee, but Harvey looked like a real partier... let me ask YOU... is there any "authenticated" EVIDENCE that LHO actually did ANYTHING ?

Trask is the source for most if not all this information…. According to the Lancer Timeline, Trask-120; Wrone-26; Zavada Study 1 “In the morning of 11/23 the FBI view a 16mm version at KODAK….” this could EASILY be 0184…. unless you have anything related to a different 16mm showing? and as you said – they only had 3 rolls of 8mm… why again couldn’t 0184 be a 16mm copy of 0183 that was left at KODAK? Everything I have ever read says there was no break in production of 185,186,187 and 0183… and there is no explanation for the missing number… To continue: Phillips sends this note to Rowley: which suggests the film sent is an 8mm 50+ foot film including Z’s family… according to Zavada’s study… only SS copy #1/0187 meets this requirement… SS #2/0186 – was spliced and looped…. 0183 and 0185 go to LIFE and Zapruder is not left with a copy at all? … According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder. Note: Disregard personnel scenes shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date. The third print is forwarded. Zapruder is said to have taken the original AND BEST FIRST DAY COPY home with him at 11pm 11/22. Let’s say 0183 and 0185 (cause 0186 was DEFINITELY the one given to the FBI and the other copies do not have the copy # on them, only the 0183 reproduction) 0183 – the original – is taken by Stolley on the morning of 11/23 0185 – the BEST COPY – is taken by Stolley on the afternoon of 11/25 (author cites an email from you on 5/14/10) ================================== According to Phillips’ letter to Rowley, Sorrels has 2 copies – 0186 and 0187, with the THIRD PRINT FORWARDED?? Which print would THAT be? ===================================== 9pm 11/22 - Zap and Schwarz drive to DPD HQ, find Sorrels who then asks Zap and Schwartz that 2 COPIES BE taken to Max Philips Zap and Schwartz find Max, give him TWO COPIES and retains none (Zap is supposed to have 0183 AND 0185 that night already, and now also 0186 and 0187 from Sorrels to give to Max) If 0186 is given to Kelley in the morning… in Tink’s Six Seconds, page 311-312 Max sends 0187 to Rowley and retains 0186 to give back to Sorrels… Trask p120 0186 is given to Kelley on 11/23 who in turn gives it to FBI Bookhout to Barrett to Shanklin – HOW DOES KELLEY HAVE A COPY to give to the FBI – From Max or Sorrels? When did this transfer take place? 0187 HAS to be the copy that Philips sends to Rowley BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SECOND PRINT – NOT the THIRD PRINT… How can Max forward THE THIRD PRINT 0187… when LIFE has 0183, Zapruder has 0185, MAX/KELLEY has 0186 11/22 while the FBI has 0186 on 11/23 FROM Kelley, and Sorrels IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE been given TWO PRINTS, this date? Can anyone explain that for me?

Around 1962, Hunter was an early volunteer test subject (along with Ken Kesey) for psychedelic chemicals at Stanford University's research covertly sponsored by the CIA in their MKULTRA program. Thanks Martin... was sure it was at Harvard though... but Stanford makes more sense.... Whose "test program" was it at Stanford? From what I remember, Bear got the recipe and made it himself... lots and lots of it... there were an awful lot of underground chemists at the time... But I will look more deeply into it DJ

btw - something many may have not known... One of the subjects in Tim Leary's experiments was Robert Hunter... who joined with Jerry Garcia to become the main lyricist for the band.... ...you aint gonna learn, what you dont wanna know.... ... if you get confused.... listen to the music play... Peace DJ

Ken Kesey and the merry pronksters were NOTHING compared to Augustus "Bear" Owsley Stanley... he dosed more people than maybe even the CIA.... and the Grateful Dead was the soundtrack of that Psychedelic Revolution.... Kesey simply had MONEY from the book and helped finance much of these activities.... and finally... look around... there aint no revolution no more.... the hopes and dreams of the counter culture can now be heard in a 20 second soundbite on your iPod... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/us/15stanley.html?_r=1 In 1963, Mr. Stanley enrolled at the University of California, Berkeley. The next year, he encountered LSD, a transformative experience. “I remember the first time I took acid and walked outside,” he said in the Rolling Stone interview. “The cars were kissing the parking meters.” Mr. Stanley had found his calling, and at the time it was at least quasi-legitimate: LSD was not outlawed in California until 1966. What he needed to do was learn his craft, which he accomplished, as Rolling Stone reported, in three weeks in the university library, poring over chemistry journals. Soon afterward, he left college and a going concern, the Bear Research Group, was born. In 1965, he met Mr. Kesey, and through him the Dead. Enraptured, he became their sound man, early underwriter, principal acolyte, sometime housemate and frequent touring companion. With Bob Thomas, he designed the band’s highly recognizable skull-and-lightning-bolt logo. Mr. Stanley also made many recordings of the Dead in performance, now considered valuable documentary records of the band’s early years. Many have been released commercially.

That's cause he's figured out that the "Sixth Floor Museum" would be a complete oxymoron... Maybe a change to "The Sixth Floor Ripley's Believe It or Not museum of BS the governement wishes was true" Cause you know Ron... Historians write history, and the 6th Floor is about HISTORY... regardless of the accuracy, authentication or reality of what is being presented... DJ

My bad buddy... saw it change to Jarman... thanks... and welcome back to the fray... always enjoyed reading your posts DJ

Wow. Lee, could you give the cite to that info? I can't seem to locate it. In fact, Norman is not even listed in the index of people who testified to the HSCA. You must have him confused with someone else. Hi Barry, There are many interviews by the HSCA that are still not released in full. I'm very interested in seeing the dozens of pages of testimony given to them by William Lowery that is still withheld. I can assure you that Norman was interviewed by investigators of the HSCA, as was James Jarman. In fact, it is James Jarman's HSCA testimony that throws a spanner in the works concerning Bonnie Ray Williams chicken dinner on the sixth floor story. Please read through pages 13 through 17 of the following link that has several pages of Norman's HSCA recorded testimony. Cheers Lee http://digitalcollec.../0/title/Page 1 I stand corrected Lee. This is absolutely dynamite. A fantastic find, thanks! Not trying to be a buzz kill... but the testimony linked to is the WCR testimony...NOT the HSCA of Norman... Is there a llink to his HSCA testimony? DJ

Can't deal with the argument presented so resort to insults and non-sequitor? nice. In Internet slang, a xxxxx is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion While the word xxxxx and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling describing intentionally provocative actions and harassment outside of an online context. SOUNDS familiar.. again nice to see you staying with within your limits and abilities When asked what he did, does the man EVER SAY, "I stopped filming the motorcade for a few seconds"? No. In fact he says quite the opposite... Regarding the 10% decrease ... can you at least provide Zavada's tests that prove such a thing? As sadly, my week with the original frames was last month... And no Craig, it is only consistent with SOME of the stop/starts and completely DIFFERENT from the most recent STOP/START at z001... Please post any other STOP/START frames you have and prove what you claim, that the others did not look like z001, and had the 10% decrease in the following frames Didn't they used CAMERA ORIGINAL stock to create the copies... the copies are IDENTICAL to the original... and two of the tree copies do not have 0185 or 0187, just 0183 print thru... Zavada NEVER got the orignal film... he got what was given to him... Alterations and copying occuring well before he had his hands on any "original"... unless you can prove otherwise Repeating the same answer does not make it any more correct Craig... Zapruder does not say he stopped filming... Zapruder DOES SAY he saw, while filming, the turns onto Houston and onto Elm... The film itself is not proof of itself... but nice try. Like saying CE399 was THE bullet because we have THE bullet and it's obvious... Why don't the other two prints have their print copy numbers on them Craig? Yet the one produced between the other two, does.... 0186... If the film was altered and copied onto CAMERA ORIGINAL STOCK... wouldn't the final copied film LOOK original under any analysis?

You do realize there is a HUGE difference between HEARING 3 shots and there actually being more shots fired, right? And I'm not talking silencers which, on rifles in 1963, were r4eally supression devices, not silencing ones... In any case.. 3 teams, all with Collins Radios.. FIRE is spoken into the radio 3 shooters fire at the same time 1 SOUND = 3 SHOTS A FLURRY of shells enter the limo.... THREE shots cannot account for all the damage done in DP in those few seconds.... let alone that one bullet can account for what the autopsy said happened to his head and one more for his back and throat... Why do you suppose Homer McMahon, a photo anlysis EXPERT, would say he saw 6-8 shots from 3 directions... if he didn't? When at the same time the FBI/SS is INSISTING to witnesses and government analysist alike that there was only 3 shots, and there will always only ever be THREE shots..