David Josephs

I'd really like to hear more about the evidence related to those involved with the actual tramps.... There are two sets of teams within the DPD that deal with "three hobos" and they do not seem to cross... Wise's name is not on any documentation related to these men, while Chambers' is... Wise is mistaken about Middleton... supposedly he was not working that day And no one else is questioned about these men, the Chambers group does not ID any photos of these men as being the same as the ones they handled Doyle says they were convicted and jailed and released Chambers says he let's them go Wise says Decker talks to them for 5 mins and then lets them go... What up?

Barry, CE399 was not at Parkland It was not on the Govenor's stretcher It was not "pristine"... it was indeed fired and parts of the jacket and inner lead were no longer there before pieces are taken for "study" Case in point... any organic or fiberous material on a bullet that supposedly passes thru 2 men might help to prove such a theory, no? Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way. Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it? Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet. Is it just me, but if there was any material on this bullet, either organic or inorganic, wouldn't the FBI be interested in that as evidence? This FBI AGENT is happy that the bullet that supposedly passed thru jacket - shirt - skin - muscle - ?? - skin - jacket - shirt - skin - muscle - bone - muscle - skin - (I forgot shirt&jacket) - skin - wrist bone - muscle - skin - pants - skin - muscle AND all that blood along the way and this FBI AGENT is glad it was not necessary to CLEAN... so he would have actually CLEANED it first if it was...? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office. Todd says CE399 IS the bullet he gets from Rowley... yet Rowley cannot confirm it is the one he got from Johnson and GAVE to SA Todd. Todds initials are the first initials on CE399 before Frazier, Cunningham etc... From all indications Todd, who was the SA who badgered Perry, inserted the bullet currently in evidence as CE399 into the process after Rowley gave him a different bullet. CE399 was never at Parkland Mr Purvis and it did not exist until Todd gives it to Frazier... Now... where did TODD GET IT?

One of my favorite in fact... the range of expression and emotion... Tom, if that's Hunt... {sigh} cheers DJ

Agree completely Thomas... yet I believe this photo of Hunt is taken around the time the tramps are found, or at least in the RR yard still.. But as evident from this photo he was somewhere in DP during the shooting... I think he was on Houston... just need to check all the images again... More importantly though are the problems with Wise's FBI report and how it does not pan out... How are they released by Decker that afternoon yet are not signed out until the 26th? I'm saying there was a different group of tramps the Chambers/Wise Arrest reports are referring to... Has anyone ever published a photo of these men circa 1963 NOT from this batch of photos? If they were "convicted of vagrancy" per Doyle, wouldn't mug shots have been taken? Rereading Chambers FBI report Jones/Chambers/Grinell/Wagner are the officers involved...No Wise or Bass or Vaughn... CHAMBERS says he released the hobos... that they were very dirty, clothes dirty and wore no socks... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312 Page 3 - Capt Jones tells Chambers AT THIS POINT that they arrested the individual who shot Tippit and HE WAS THE ONE WHO SHOT KENNEDY.... This is AFTER a suggestion to test these hobos for gunpowder residue... Chambers says to them they are free to go.... yet is then confused about the ARREST REPORTS... I think it is safe to say that none of these policemen were ever shown these photos and asked if these were the same men... Two seperate sets of events... now where have we heard THAT before?

I do not believe the older tramp is Hunt... we have a photo of Hunt crossing the street, imo... yet you will notice how few shots the old tramp is visible in and the one full shot of him he is doing the sour face thing... The idea that Lansdale, if it is, is allowed to walk past the first policeman (which I see Denis has listed as Wise... Wise said he was in back?) and then walk past these MURDER SUSPECTS... is patently absurd... would NEVER happen in the real world of cops and robbers I cannot comment on the passing of info as that requires too much supposition for me... but everything else about these men, the police, Landsdale and the actual comments from one of the supposed tramps about a shower and clean up leads me to keep digging. More as soon as I dig it up DJ

After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions... The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10273-10392 MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures.. Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front... Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps... Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day... and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well... And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later... 1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn? 2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up... 3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this? mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots... Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question... False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do? Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder) Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them... If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off - It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection... DJ

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man. Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film) Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film. Tom I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck) Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm? The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot? Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car. Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there. Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred? Mr. HILL. Approximately there. Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill? This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location... Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions... Perfect DJ

Appreciate that position indeed.... Yet... it remains very difficult to imagine that the one piece of evidence offering the most definitive view of the assasiantion is authentic... when so many less significant pieces are obviously not authentic... In your heart of hearts... with virtually every piece of evidence against Oswald questionable we would be allowed to see a film of what actually happened? Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head. Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Z342... Altgens at 15 feet from JFK BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight. 'nuf said... cheers JT...

Josiah, Cheers for your acceptional sparing efforts... but he aint gonna learn what he dont wanna know.... Not really sure why the discussion must center on z317 when z323 is the most obvious representation of this black-out... and if deep in shadow, what is that white spot on his jacket collar where there should be nothing but shadow? Does it not seem obvious that if we see the back of the head avulsed in 335/337... that this was present at 323? At the bottom left of this black area is a portion of JFK's skull which has been blown out yet not in deep shadow... Z337 makes the blow out to the back of the head obvious and also makes the xrays offered useless... his face and forehead where not affected yet the xrays show massive defects in these areas... This was why Jackie's statement was removed... "from the front, nothing"

Hi Don... "illuminating" subjects for me... ie the survey data mistakes and cover-up, deserves respect.... it is a very well done analysis that supposrts and makes sense of testimony at the scene.... but I do believe hew stops short BECAUSE of his conlcusions.... How he can quote Altgens yet not hear Brehm and Hargis and Hill describe skull being propelled back and to the left of JFK... along with all the other witnesses and the group that storms the GK.... Curry AND Decker sending men immediiately to the RR yard and overpass... etc.. And in our discussion over what Kleins sent customers who ordered c20-T750.. he readily admits that there is no evidence that any other customer ordering THAT item number rec'd the same type of rifle found in the TSBD... none. I indeed find him cryptic, eccentric, and very interesting. While presenting the data and evidence from which he bases his conclusions... The world accroding to FETZVISION and the wrath endured just to discuss anything with him is nauseating. IMO, HE'S one of the main reasons JFK CTs are not taken seriously on a grand scale... he'd rather fight you over Oswald in the Doorway... or Chaney motoring up much too soon... then discuss the evidence he offers and realize some of the holes in the logic, support and conclusions... I agree with much he concludes, like others, which makes his treatment all the more disturbing and deconstructive. yet again.... until the world was PROVEN round... you were seen as crazy if you said so... Jim MAY be in great company - and maybe time will tell. Cheers DJ

Tom, I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches... the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of... I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea) and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me. A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting. DJ

Jim... You are obviously married to your conclusions and the evidence you believe supports it... Personally, I do not see these different testimonies supporting the scenario as you describe it... Chaney DID NOT MOTOR FORWARD until after he stopped and well after McIntyre... Fixing that in time as you have requires very special FETZERVISION and removing the distinction between "fugurative" & "literal" speach. Which early Hargis are you comparing to the WCR Hargis, recorded statements? As there is nothing in the Dallas Archives authored by Hargis... but more probably is included in a batch of other reports? Let me ask you ... Do you see that a possible scenario is that in the time it takes Kellerman to call Lawson and turn... 2-3 seconds pass? (Hargis says the limo slowed AFTER the shots) That 2-3 seconds after z313 we see both Hill and Jackie on the trunk, and I believe we see Kellerman looking back Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot? Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car. Hill is telling us that z313 happens when he is near the back of the limo Altgens says the headshot happens 15 feet from him Funny thing as we ALL KNOW JIM... is that this doesnt happen until z342+ What I wold still like to understand is how the alteration of this specific instance was accomplished... Logic and evidence tells us the headshot occured 30-40 feet further down the road... that Altgens and Brehm were correct... the limo at worst was creeping along at 2-3 mph at the time of these headshot(s) - which I believe was one from the front, higher on the head and one from the back causing the lower damage... HOW DID "THEY" MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF THE HEADSHOT(S) OCCURRED 30-40 FEET EAST OF WHAT WE SEE IN Z/NIX/MUCHMOORE.... STOPPED OR NOT THE SHOOTING ITSELF OCCURRED FURTHER DOWN ELM... Jim, if you could explain that so we can understand it... it would go a long way in understanding the Zfilm alteration argument... I do NOT WANT the history of the film and every detail... just the headshot and how what we see today ie Moorman, can be accurate while the films are not... thanks DJ

That's okay Jim... You have thoughts that are wrong quite often as I come to see... The "testimony" of the men you list do not PROVE that these events occured before the TUP at all... and what I am trying to point out ARE the Zfilm problems as they relate to the memories of these men... for example... Mr. STERN - But, you cannot now recall more than two shots? Mr. HARGIS - That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. Mr. STERN - Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have Just described? Mr. HARGIS - You mean about the blood hitting--- Mr. STERN - Yes. Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going," Mr. STERN - Someone inside-- Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. Mr. STERN - Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots? Mr. HARGIS - Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was Just a little back and left of--Just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from. there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. yet after this statement you are ok with his recollection? not so much Jim.... seems to me he has a few problems with time and sound... And at that time the Presidential car slowed down - so according to Hargis, the limo slows AFTER the headshot... yet that contradicts Altgens and Brehm who both say the limo barely moved between z255 and z313... 10-15 feet during this period... and then they slowed AFTER that? to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through - how can Hargis possibly know this? Is "he" JFK or ?? and please address Bell and McIntyre... Didn't Chaney himself say in that interview he did not remember doing that... that he stopped and then raced to the rest of the cars AFTER? Here is classic Fetz... the man asking the question states the 60-75 #... NOT Chaney Chaney says he stopped... which the films show He refers to the JFK limo as the "lead car" in the first sentence... and then again by mistake... He does NOT believe the lead car stopped... YOU posted the comments on the statements. And it is misleading and simply false. A(Chaney): I don’t recall myself stopping but as I stopped to think of it I must have come almost to a stop for Hargis to have got off his motor over on the left-hand side and run between those two cars and run in front of me. Apparently, I did too. I don’t recall stopping but I must have The Nix film shows this plain as day... More importantly is WHY you maintain this line of reasoning when there are so many other areas that do not work related to the Zfilm... and why... when you are engaged with someone who agrees that the Zfilm is a real problem, do you treat them like you do? Just your warm, charming and winning way? Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement. This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use... You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo. So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP. In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across..

Hi Andric... I believe you must read Kellerman's testimony with an understanding of the extremempressures he may have been under to tow the company line.... 3 shots and only 3 shots... and while he does eventually come around to that, he is very careful to speak of "opinions" Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. Please notice here how all of a sudden they wake up and go on the offensive. Yes, his testimony does ultimately state he HEARD 3 shots... Does it also suggest that he believed there were more than 3 shots? maybe check out his comments in RED.... He goes as far as he can imo... as do many of the witnesses within the government/military... That's the great thing about this case... there is more to read between the lines than what was ever actually said... for these witnesses... for the non-governmental witnesses... the WC simply ignored, changed etc.... to suit the purpose.... Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. Representative FORD. Is that why you have described-- Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were? Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots? Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting? Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement. This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use... You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo. So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP. In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across... Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital? Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most. Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car. He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)... Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Just after it. Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for? Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head. Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head? Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas. Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it? Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital. Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat? Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap. Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time? Mr. HILL. Inside the car. In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic... the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder.... Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in McIntyre and as he is seen later in Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. JFK TWO IN THE HEAD ONE IN THE SHOULDER ONE IN THE NECK JC CHEST WRIST THIGH Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? How is this anything but near the right temple? "TO THE RIGHT OF THE EAR" How is it poossible to locate something to the right of the right ear and have it be in the BACK of the head? and do we have any idea 2which photo he is referring to? Where is this entrance wound? Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir. Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture? Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.

Unfortunately, it does not "prove" anything. It does however serve to support the other testimonies as to when the third shot impact occurred. In fact, if one will correlate the testimonies of Kellerman and Greer regarding transmission over the radio, with the testimonies of Agent Hill, they will find other testimonies which, when all placed into perspective, will serve to indicat that the third shot impact occurred just as James Altgens said it did. Directly in front of where he was standing. Tom P.S. And of course Nellie as well as JBC have repeatedly stated that the third shot impact which blew cerebral tissue all over them, occurred AFTER JBC was leaned over in the seat with his head in Nellie's lap. From this, and the survey plats and survey notes in my possession, it would now appear that the Warren Commission was severely lacking in their attempt at making one of the three shots (the third shot) disappear. Yes Tom... supports the other statements about the final shot location... but does not agree with your 3 shots 3 hits conclusion.... There was a frontal shot to his head from the front... whether this is the left or right temple entrance... who knows since we've never seen the actual authentic evidence... Yet there are so many people supporting a GK shot... as opposed to any other spot in the entire Plaza... Nobody runs to the south knoll, Dal Tex, or even the TSBD (Baker only goes cause he sees the pigeons fly off the roof) Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around. Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from? Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner. In building the case for z alteration, this is yet another brick...

B - Did you mean to say the LEFT HAND TURN from Houston to Elm or The RIGHT HAND TURN from Main onto Houston? both are not in the film yet there could not be a right hand turn from Elm to Houston.. right?

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. Doesn’t this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later.. The gif below is from z350-400... This would be the only time that Kellerman would see them both on the back of the limo... "Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. Is this how y'all see it? DJ

Maybe someone can explain what happened at 154-158 and 207-212... In BOTH instances the intersprocket area gets blacked out... In the WCR version of 212... not only is there a tear in 207 just below Rosemary Willis... but there also seems to be a straight razor slice both under this tear and in z212 (or may be artifacts from the copying process?) My question... If the tear is published in the WCR and z207 was damaged to that extent... how do we see a normal z207 and 212 after the fact... with z208-211 re inserted and no evidence of the splice? How was z207 and 212 FIXED? z207 looks pretty badly damaged yet comes out clear and fine later on... Where as 155 remains pretty badly damaged... do you have any idea what happened to those frames for them to come out looking like that?

He looks ALOT like him... right? Now I have a few more problems with this TIPPIT thing... What is being done to Tippit from 1:25 DOA until 3:15 when Rose finally starts the autopsy...? Why to Methodist if he was DOA, when Parkland does the autopsies? Which ambulance picks him up? 601,2,3,5,6,7, or 10? or a Dudley ambulance... do we have those records? I also want to go back to this FBI report... At Methodist, although a bad copy, Liguori does mention the temple shot..... yet only 2 other wounds... one being the brass button wound, from which Moellenhoff gives Davenport the bullet, the other a wound to the abdomen.. Except Rose, at Parkland, describes 4 wounds with 3 bullets recovered.... Why would Methodist remove a bullet from a dead cop at the request of another cop BEFORE the autopsy? Isn't that tampering with evidence? What is going on prior to the autopsy so that 5 shots becomes 3 wounds, becomes 4 wounds and only 3 bullets?

Craig... on the one hand you assert these people "haven't a clue" about photography... and in the very next you as ask THEM to explain that which you KNOW thay can't... Since you ask the questions, knowing full well their answers... why not just answer them here... Why 317 is the focus and not 323... I am at a loss... 323 shows this blackout much more clearly and looks much more artificial than any other frame...imo.. So explain Craig... why, if the blackness in this frame is all the result of shadow... why do they ALL not blossom out like what we see at the back of his head... Greer's hair is still n place, Nellie's, JC's Jacket, Jcakie's hair... ALL are blackened by the shadows yet do not grow to extend past their recognized boundaries The right side of JAckie's face is in the exact position that the back of JFK's head... why are we not seeing a dark shadow there or her hair contrasted out to bleed into her face... JFK shows blackness on the back of the head right above and below very light areas... sincere question here CL... why, of all these shadows... does JFK's look so artificial? thanks DJ

thx Duncan... do you have video of the others arrested looking like Oswald... I thought there was one or two more... One in Dallas (?) Cheers DJ

Yes he did Jim... yet not until 1978 at the HSCA What's his story about not giving any statements prior to this? And I also notice he says both were coming East on 10th.... fwiw Below that is Cimino's statement... which ends with him seeing the hole in the head... Yet still Jim... how do all the eye witnesses miss this last shot? 3-4 RAPID shots (cause it was an automatic pistol) a pause and then a single shot.... Markham, Scoggins AND DB miss that.... and why are each of these statements so similiar? FRANCIS KINNETH, 1425 Caidwell, Dallas, Texas, advised he was employed on a construction job at the intersection of Denver and Tenth Street, Dallas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. He advised at approximately 1:00 PM he had heard approximately two or three shots and, looking in a westerly direction, he saw a parked police car and a uniform police officer lying on the ground in front of same. At the same time he observed an individual running west on Tenth Street turning south on a street, the name of which he does not know. ELBERT AUSTIN, 8317 Fourth Avenue, Dallas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was working on a construction job at the intersection of Tenth and Denver Street, Dallas, Texas. He advised he was a brick mason's helper and was assisting in the construction of an apartment house. Me stated sometime after 1:00 PM he was on a scaffold in front of the aforementioned apartment house when he heard approximately two or three shots and, looking in a westerly direction, he saw a policeman lying in front of a police car on the left front side. L. J. LEWIS, 7616 Hums, Pleasant Grove, Texas, advised he is presently self-employed as a wholesale car dealer. LEWIS advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was on the used car lot of Johnny Reynolds Used Cars together with HAROLD RUSSELL and PAT PATTERSON, during which time they heard approximately three or four gun shots coming from the vicinity of Tenth and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. Approximately one minute later he observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying either an automatic pistol or a revolver in his hands, and while running was either attempting to reload same or conceal the weapon in his belt line. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm BAYLOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER Wednesday, Feb. 1st, 1978. OFFICE OF PHOTO DEPARTMENT OF HOBIEZELLE HOSPITAL 3500 GASTON AVE, DALLAS, TEXAS. Investigators Jack Moriarty and Joe Basteri, menders of the Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington., D.C. are in the office of the Director of Photography of the hospital mentioned above, and Mr. JACK RAY TATUM, The Director, has been interviewed with regard to his first hand knowledge, of the Fatal shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit, here in Dallas, Friday, November 22nd, 1963. Mr. Tatum will reiterate his statement to be reduced to typewritten form (By Moriarty) "Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it." Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street. At that point this young man looked around him and then started to walk away in my direction and as he started to break into a small run in my direction, I sped off in my auto. All I saw him to the intersection and run south on Patton towards Jefferson. Q. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald, Officer Tippit or anyone else at the scene. A. No Q Did you not report this information to the authorities? A. There were more than enough people there and I could not see what I could contribute. Q. Is there anything you wish to add to your statement? A. At this time I can't think or anything. Jack Moriarty Joe Basteri Jack R. Tatum Feb, 1 1978 FRANK CIMINO, 403 East Tenth Street, Apartment 7, Dallas, Texas, advised that on November 22, 1963, he was residing in an apartment at 405 East Tenth Street. He Stated that at around 1 p.m. he was at his apartment listening to the radio. He heard four loud noises which sounded like shots and then he heard a women scream. (DJ: This corroborates Helen's story along with a number of others... 1:06 is yet again supported) He jumped up. put on his shoes and ran outside the house, and a woman dressed like a waitress was out in front of his residence shouting, "Call the police". She also advised a man had just shot a police officer and stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street. He looked in this direction but did not see anyone. He then walked over to the officer and saw he had been shot in the head. and finally Jim... if you or I or anyone saw this person running doing ANYTHING and then, after Oswald is captured and given those ridiculous line-ups...is asked to ID which in the line-up they saw... or which in a photo they saw... Oswald comes to mind... no?

Follow me aloing for a minute.... A lot has been written about the shells at the Tippit scene being described as AUTOMATICS by Hill 1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. and the comment back was how do the shells get so far away from the body if auto shells that eject after firing... that they HAD to be regualr shells that the killer emptied and threw here and there... My point? No one testifies to this person kneeling down to pick up these shells... How is it that we know the killer(s) didn't do that? I ask because the killer also went around to Tippit laying on the ground and shot him in the head... at quite an interesting angle.... yet the witnesses say no such thing.... Aren't Markham and Benavidas and SCoggins the BEST of the Tippit witnesses? Yet not one of them sees this final shot? [/color] Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots (DJ: so we have the first TWO SHOTS and these OTHER TWO SHOTS) and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell. Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell? Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - What else did you see? Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear? Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast. LIKE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON?? Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots? Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear? Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall. Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall? Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, and I started to get out-- since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher. Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? Mrs. MARKHAM. Three. Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do? Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street. Mr. BALL. What did the man do? Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun. Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk? Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back. Mr. BALL. Toward Patton? Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot. Mr. BALL. Which way? Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir? Mr. BALL. Which way? Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way. Tippit autopsy report Can ANYONE provide PROOF, that Tippit was shot in the head at 10th and Patton... according to this FBI report... Dr. Liguori does not mention a headwound at all and bullets are removed in the ambulance, at Methodist AND at Parkland??? We KNOW he was shot in the head.... Why didn't anybody see it? How is it possible that these three BEST WITNESSES do not recall an execution style shot to the head? and to bring this full circle... Seems very likely then that if they missed what is assumed to have happened BEFORE the killer runs away, they would easily have missed him picking up the shells....