David Josephs

Indeed Lee... and thanks for stepping back in... the lumps out here do wear us down... yet your contributions remain stellar Please keep up the great work DJ

As we watch Zfilm the limo speeds off and no motorcycles follow them... NONE. the rest of Chaney also makes sense... Mr. STERN - You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots? Mr. HARGIS - Yes. sir: I knew they were shots. Mr. STERN - All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your motorcycle? Mr. HARGIS - Yes, uh-huh---- Mr. STERN - Where? Mr. HARGIS - It was to the left-hand side of the street from---south side of Elm Street. Mr. STERN - And then what did you--- Mr. HARGIS - I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then I looked. Jim F.... rather than attacking JT, can you offer anything other than CHANEY's own words that he went up ahead to the lead car? Does anyone in the car corroborate the story? Are any of the three motocycle men in McIntyre CHANEY? and finally... in SUPPORT of the frontal shot... I offer this look at CHANEY and his mate as the shots are fired... WHERE ARE THEY LOOKING? (Note: FWIW, Chaney, the man closest to JFK outside the vehicle is NOT on the WCR witness list or is listed as the author of ANYTHING in the dallas archive.... but I'll keep looking) Jim, where did CHANEY say he motored forward to the lead car? Sorry if I missed the reference - an interview with you? DJ

Hi Chris, thanks for the great gif.... Seems to me that the distance steps from frame to frame, except for the splice, is uniform and the limo is nowehere NEAR that curb by those people.... Look where the turn STARTS in towner... looks like center lane to center lane.... andnot WIDE at all... curious DJ

Agree wholeheartedly Tom... I just can't visualize the process that allows what we see on the films to have been the end product of alteration unless either a) there were MANY more frames taken than what we finally see (faster camera speed - 24fps and all of Chris D's work makes perfect sense) what we see is a composite c) Your survey work is wonderful - thank you.... btw, how do I get a copy of "There is no Magic"? DJ Personally: If it carries any weight, I would go for the "fishy"!

Hi Nick.. I believe you meant to say THE MC, not "A" MC.... and when you add the number of 5th floor references from Sawyer... and what he and 2 others did between 12:34 and 12:37... the 5th floor gets more interesting.. Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a *second* search of the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped." Now is that what you told them on that day? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day. Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not? Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley. the 500 block, between W 7th & W Davis is closer to the Tippit murder than the 700 block at Neely WHY must we make the assumption that Whaley's passenger went NORTH afterward? Mr. WHALEY. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you before. So would I.... Mr. BELIN. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington. Mr. WHALEY. Does it make any difference? Mr. BELIN. It does not make any difference. Mr. WHALEY. It will all be what you said and what she took down? Mr. BELIN. What you said? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; and what I said? Mr. BELIN. Yes. Mr. WHALEY. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it. You think it possible that NECHES was changes to NEELY from the April 8 deposition? DJ

Then who is it that Roger Craig sees in the rambler? What happens to Oswald's jacket? NOT on the bus, yet 2 Jackets in the cab (or at least one that matches his DARK pants... Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. and if you see my previous post... Whaley is not exactly a lot of help to your conclusion.... and in the walk from Lamar to Commerce, in the midst of all this... not a single person remembers seeing Oswald.... you'd think people would admit to seeing him on that walk just cause they were there at the time, even if they didn't see him.... but we don't have that story... he just APPEARS .. Did they ever contact the woman who Whaley called a cab for to corroborate the story? DJ

David... Mr. L.... you, nor anyone else has can say who ran into that house - other than from Roberts' words... none. No corroboration... no one sees Oswald between this room and the theater... NOONE David - in a residential neighborhood in the 60's with mom's kids and elderly at home... Nothing. So please... the corroboration of the evidence... the authentication of evidence - which includes FBI reports... is paramount. Butch Burroughs says he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15... his is also an uncorroborated account with the same amount of weight as Roberts... but cause that would mean Oswald did NOT kill Tippit his story is ripped apart and attacked, like the 1:06 Markham Time... If Oswald was on the bus then it was NOT Oswald in Whaley's cab... or Click's cab.... unless the man bought a jacket on the walk from one to the other You want to put your stock in this man's testimony? I'm sure you know that Neches and Beckley do not intersect... Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. Where'd the jacket come from David? He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley." Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the uproar?" And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him. But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him. Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street? Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley. Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block. Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard goes on up, and Beckley turns off. Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here. Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it. This is the intersection right there. Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there. Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off. Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right? Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches. Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley. Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of North Beckley. Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X". Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner of Neches and Beckley. Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. O.K. David - tried to find this marked map - any ideas cause those two streets do NOT cross... and as he says, he KNOWS the area... The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years. Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven. Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will tell you what is on all four corners. Mr. BALL. That would be-- Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner. Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley. ther is no such place David... and the 37 year Dallas veteran doesn't know this? Now let's add that the first two pages of his testimony do not offer a date, while the last page does: and out of nowhere Whaley drops Neches completely and is now at Neely... The testimony of William W. Whaley was taken at 1:50 p.m., on April 8, 1964, Mr. WHALEY. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley and Neely, he said, "This will do right here." and I pulled up to the curb Mr. BELIN. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that was the 700 block. Mr. BELIN. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of North Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Had you crossed Neely Street yet when you let him off? Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. Mr. BELIN. About how far north of Neely street did you let the man off? Mr. WHALEY. About 20 feet. Mr. BELIN. Then you went down to the police station to identify this man? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. You saw a lineup? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all? Mr. WHALEY. There was four of them, sir, and from the right to the left, he was No. 3. Mr. BELIN. Starting from the right to the left, from his right or your right. Mr. WHALEY. From your right, sir, which would have been his left. There were numbers above their heads, sir. Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, what number did you say the man was in the lineup? Mr. WHALEY. No. 2 Always seems to be #2 - huh? And now the kicker... David, do police normally have witnesses sign their statements before or after their conclusions and identifications? Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped." Now is that what you told them on that day? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day. Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not? Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley. Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound Bus Station* * *" Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man? Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon. Mr. BELIN. You signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup. Mr. WHALEY. Before I left there, I signed this typewritten, because they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. I had to wait. Mr. BELIN. But was this before or after you saw the lineup. Mr. WHALEY. After she typed it up. It was after. Mr. BELIN. It was after? Mr. WHALEY. That is when I signed it, after. Mr. BELIN. Now, when you signed it--what I want to know is, before you went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you saw was the No. 8 man in the lineup? Mr. WHALEY. I don't remember that. I don't remember whether it said three or two, or what. Mr. BELIN. Did they have any statements on there before you went down to the lineup? Mr. WHALEY. I never saw what they had in there. It was all written out by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and that could be writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed my name because they said that is what I said Thanks Lee... and yes - I agree, the point is NOT whether those offering evidence are being truthful... but whether what/who they saw was authentic or not... a doctor looking at a faked/altered xray will tell you what the Xray says... NOT whether the xray is authentic - we need Mantik for that... Let's go down this path for a second please Lee - I'd like your take.. How does Oswald REALLY get from Baker/Truly to the theater... and where does he actually stop? i.e. Roger Craig's (Ruth's) Station Wagon? - So he NEVER goes to his room or does he make the stop... hears the horn... and leaves VIA the police vehicle which takes him to the theater? I think if we construct a timeline removing all current knowledge from the equation... we need to get our patsy to the theater ahead of the guy that ducks in, the guy Brewer sees.... So first we need to see if he REALLY went to his room... In the same vein as Beldsoe... could Roberts here have been coached a bit? This is once again CLASSIC Ball questioning and leading of the witnesses.... Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week. Mr. BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door? Mrs. ROBERTS. No. Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home? Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day. Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday--- Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it. Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday. Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute---he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry. Mr. BALL. And about what time was this? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up---I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes. Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in a hurry"? Mrs. ROBERTS. No. Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot? Mrs. ROBERTS. No. I don't think there's any mystery as to who ran into the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley around 1 p.m. Earlene Roberts' account--that it was Oswald, who ran in, and then ran out, zippering up a jacket he had donned--is in the accounts published in both Dallas newspapers, the New York Times, carried in all the media, and then documented in FBI reports based on interviews that took place promptly. Why does it matter that, months later, when under oath, there's a minor glitch when, asked a question designed to permit her to tell her story, there's a brief moment of confusion. I don't believe the passage you've isolated, from the transcript, in any way undercuts the account she provided multiple times, starting on the afternoon of 11/22/63. DSL

What puzzles me is how fast this limo always seems to be going, but I've heard it claimed it was only traveling 5mph on Elm. And this faster speed is seen in Towner and Hughes and the Z-film. Did the people who developed these films take out frames to speed the films up? How was President Kennedy shot so accurately going that fast? The limo had to stop and not just at the corner. But I think you're right about the wide turn. It was probably done on purpose right there near the Dal-Tex building. And that's why The Cuban was giving a signal to Greer. It wasn't the peace sign or a the sign of victory. An important researcher told me it meant Attempt 2. And I believe that. Kathy C Hi Kathy According the the survey data... the limo goes from 3.74 to 17.1 to 18.7 to 12.06 to 28.69 to 11.12 mph between z168 and z222 and varying intervals... the most interesting being the 28.69mph from z207 to z208... In one frame they say the limo moved 2.3 feet... yet at 206 and 209 the limo is moving at 12 and 11 mph... CANT BE. From 161-166, 5 frames, the limo moved .9 feet - 2.24mph... yet from 166-185, 19 frames and 19.2 feet (based on the surveys) equates to 12.6 mph The more we look at the ACTUAL EVIDENCE OFFERED about the speed - the more we see LARGE fluctuations in this speed which is both not consistent with their training nor with what we see on the film... Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile? Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close As you elude to Kathy... the 18.3 fps - if off by 20% - could account for the additional frames... or it really was 18.3 and frames were removed - the JUMP at z135 to the limo is, to me, a tell tale sign. Reading Zaps testimony... I guess we're just supposed to take the word of Mr Liebeler - huh? Like a little Specter here... "Are copies of your film that we say are copies of your film, really copies of your film? Mr. LIEBELER - Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. 185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera? Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how to express myself. Mr. LIEBELER - Well, they were. and sure seems to me that Zap never stopped filming and WANTED to catch the motorcade turn onto Elm... Mr. LIEBELER - As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not? Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's right. Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct? Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street. This is starting to get VERY interesting... DJ

The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to... Towner suggests no slowing or drastic right-to-left recovery.... Could be I'm just not seeing Twoner correctly and that Truly overstates the turn... Need to find other testimony about the turn.... I was under the impression a number of people testified to seeing dust kick up from a bullet hitting the street BEHIND the limo just after the turn.... Barbara something... I will look but I am SURE there are accounts of that shot... and you're right... if only Truly mentions it I'd find that suspect.... Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street? Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten. Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling? Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street. Does this look like Kellerman has something to say about the turn, but doesn't? Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street? Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels. Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time? Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25. Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be? Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen. Repeatedly we hear 12-15 mph when we both know the turn at Elm/Houston could NOT be taken at 15 mph.... According to the info Purvis found regarding the Plat Surveys and distances... the WCR claims that from z168-z171 they were traveling at 3.74mph yet from 171-185, 17.1mph... Are we going to believe that they SLOWED from 12-15mph down to 3mph AFTER the 120 degree turn? onlt to immediately speed up? Tom's data is pretty compelling in that we have distances, # of frames and "supposedly" an 18.3fps rate... So either Truly is exaggerating a bit... or something is fishy with the films and locations related to the turn and frames 207-208 which we can talk about in a different thread...

dup -

Thumb, left butt cheek and all? Cheers Duncan DJ

Exactly... turn your hand so your thumb tucks under your left butt cheek... Your thumb would be pointing to about 2:00 if 12:00 was straight ahead... landsdale's is at about 3:00... and this after swinging his arms as he walks.... DJ

Thanks David... But that WIDE turn over by the curb does not seem to be in any of the films.... and then getting from that curb to the limo's position in 135 seems a bit of a stretch.... especially if the SS follow up car and other cars followed... The SS car is right behind the limo at 135... Both cars made this wide turn? DJ

Cmon now Duncan... REALLY? Put your left hand at your side... now look down... Left Thumb at the front, fingers extend back toward the rear Ring finger even has a ring on it in the photo Now tak a photo from the left rear... nothing out of the ordinary here buddy... the thumb is farthest from the camera, not closest as you are proposing... men in 1963 did NOT wear rings on their index fingers as well DJ

Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway. Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street? Mr. TRULY. That is right. And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. Will do a search and see about other info related to this turn and who describes it... yet there is something very fishy about Towner and the Zfilm if this WIDE turn and almost stop occurred... while I took a few frames out of the Towner gif... we all know the film is smooth other than the break... and does NOT appear as if the limo slows, turns radically left or any of it... Is there ANY evidence for this turn beyond testimony? DJ

Thanks Lee... and yes - I agree, the point is NOT whether those offering evidence are being truthful... but whether what/who they saw was authentic or not... a doctor looking at a faked/altered xray will tell you what the Xray says... NOT whether the xray is authentic - we need Mantik for that... Let's go down this path for a second please Lee - I'd like your take.. How does Oswald REALLY get from Baker/Truly to the theater... and where does he actually stop? i.e. Roger Craig's (Ruth's) Station Wagon? - So he NEVER goes to his room or does he make the stop... hears the horn... and leaves VIA the police vehicle which takes him to the theater? I think if we construct a timeline removing all current knowledge from the equation... we need to get our patsy to the theater ahead of the guy that ducks in, the guy Brewer sees.... So first we need to see if he REALLY went to his room... In the same vein as Beldsoe... could Roberts here have been coached a bit? This is once again CLASSIC Ball questioning and leading of the witnesses.... Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week. Mr. BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door? Mrs. ROBERTS. No. Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home? Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day. Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday--- Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it. Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday. Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute---he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry. Mr. BALL. And about what time was this? Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up---I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes. Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in a hurry"? Mrs. ROBERTS. No. Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot? Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Jack D being used is no big stretch at all... yet keeping him quiet about it seems to me a tough sell. I was under the impression that JD, on that day, looked ALOT like the man in the SW window per Rowland.... and I can't remember ever reading if they tested the 3 rifle rest boxes for nitrates... to prove the rifle was actually fired from that window... ? Cheers DJ

DSL wrote: David... Curious... how on the one hand do you make this statement that I AGREE WITH completely... Yet not a few sentences later you hold up three FBI reports as the "Gospel according to Mary B" http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0439-001.gif NOT possible the FBI simple wrote the same story 3-4 times on different days? It does not strike you as complete OVERKILL on the Bledsoe/Bus/Oswald issue? and maybe things have changed in Dallas... but there is no MURPHY & ELM intersection prior to Lamar as the reports state - were there street name changes? DSL wrote: Yes, the rifle is real - just not the one ordered or used in any assassination Yes, the shells are real - yet depending on who you believe they were bunched together, picked up, dropped down, and never properly marked or kept in DPD's possession Yes, the SN is real - and as the workers there said, they had to move boxes to replace the floor... boxes were moved to the corner, WHEN did Oswald create this and WHY aren't his fingerprints all over the SN boxes.. ALL of them? To the first quote I posted here of yours... THE EVIDENCE IS NOT AUTHENTIC David... What criteria do YOU use to accept one FBI bogus report over another? Weren't there a number of witnesses who said their FBI statements were NOT WHAT THEY SAID? btw - I respect what you've offered the JFK research community - yours was one of the first books I purchased and read... and I'd STILL like to know more about the front right AF-1 door that was opened for Jackie to deplane in privacy... Since JFK could not have been in that casket and had to get to Bethesda... well, you know the rest.... So to understand how you seperate wheat from shaft in the voluminous mountain of "UNAUTHENTICACTED" evidence may help us to understand your supportive reasoning for Bledsoe Thanks DJ

Nice post, David. Maybe the man Officer Baker encountered on the third or forth floor was our infamous "Tan Jacket Man" and Truly covered for him by lying, "I know that man, he works here." --Tommy [...] I'd really like to hear more about the member's thoughts (and your thoughts) on Sawyer... Running up to the 4th floor "for a minute to look around" between 12:34 and 12:37 appears very strange and suspicious to me... Sawyer like a few others, always seems to be in the right place at a good time.... Behind Baker and Truly... Sawyer and friends are the next DPD individuals above the 1st floor TSBD.... on the 4th, 5th and 6th floors, at the BACK DOOR..... If anyone was to move or plant evidence, he and the two other officers are prime candidates Cheers DJ Yes, David. He Sawyer sounds pretty fishy to me, too. --Tommy Truly didn't have to lie about it, a lot of men in coats worked there - most on the second - fourth floors in offices leased to the various publishers. They didn't work for the TSBD like Oswald but they were contract partners - and shared office space. Just as Oswald the patsy worked there, I would venture that the Sixth Floor sniper also had a good excuse to be there. Among the Sixth Floor Museum oral histories is one by a guy who drove a truck delivering and picking up books, and he used the second floor lunchroom and bathroom facilities and had full run of the place. Because of that, the pool of suspects is limited, but not many people want to bother reviewing the backgrounds of those who worked there, or for the DPD. BK Morning Bill... The question remains though... Why does Truly testimony corroborate Baker's TESTIMONY yet their tetstimony contradicts his affidavit... How can Baker completely neglect to mention the door, the window, the vestibule... and yet be able to simple CHANGE the story in front of the WC... With no questions or concerns... And if the man on the stairs was not Oswald, and DID work there... who was it? DJ

Nice post, David. Maybe the man Officer Baker encountered on the third or forth floor was our infamous "Tan Jacket Man" and Truly covered for him by lying, "I know that man, he works here." --Tommy Thanks Tom... Yet I'd really like to hear more about the member's thoughts (and your thoughts) on Sawyer... Running up to the 4th floor "for a minute to look around" between 12:34 and 12:37 appears very strange and suspicious to me... Sawyer like a few others, always seems to be in the right place at a good time.... Behind Baker and Truly... Sawyer and friends are the next DPD individuals above the 1st floor TSBD.... on the 4th, 5th and 6th floors, at the BACK DOOR..... If anyone was to move or plant evidence, he and the two other officers are prime candidates Cheers DJ

To the point of the thread... they simply walked in and walked out... hiding in plain sight.... I think Baker sees one of these men as does Sawyer... and that Sawyer is involved in some shady stuff here Baker encountered one of these men: As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. and Sawyer, another... This - TO ME - is one of the more strange responses and LACK of follow up... and the constant reference, without prodding to the FIFTH floor Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car? Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there? Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floorDJ: the TOP FLOOR as we see later was the FOURTH FLOOR..., which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. DJ: and THAT's IT... no more about the man coming off the elevator from what may have been the 4th floor.... Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. Mr. BELIN. To the right? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. DJ: Always thought this was Haygood and Harkness... Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? Mr. SAWYER. No. Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building. Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out. Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance? Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building? Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out? Mr. SAWYER. I did. Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor? Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? Mr. SAWYER. Correct. Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? Mr. SAWYER. Officers. Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass. Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add? DJ: Could BELIN get away from the man, the elevator, the 5th floor and the overpass any more quickly... "IN ANY EVENT"??? yet Sawyer keep it up till Belin shuts him down Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. DJ: This is just STRANGE, no? Sawyer and 2 cops run up to the 4th floor FOR A MINUTE - see nothing and then he alone returns.... seems you'd have to walk UP past the 5th floor to get to the 6th.. wonder who moved a rifle from the 5th to 6th floors... ? Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

"Another correction in my testimony before the commission"

May shed some light.... I'll keep digging... Great work Gil... thanks for the "push" DJ

Always seemed to me that Sprague and Prouty had a unique view of the assassination and surrounding events... I find it very difficult to believe what these men open our eyes to is just more propoganda... Does ToA standup over the years? Sprague was fired for appearing as if he was going to actually investigate something... Thank goodness he did get some of the work done and continued it on his own... Add to this the desciption of at least 6 shots seen on the Zfilm at NPIC that night and Homer's declaration about seeing 6-8 shots and I believe Sprague is not so far off from what happened. Cheers DJ http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp17.html The CIA's problem Given this background of the HSCA status in late 1976, it can easily be seen that the CIA was up against much more serious opposition than it ever had been before in the JFK murder and cover-up. They had ruined Jim Garrison's reputation and curtailed his investigation by various dirty trick means. They had been in solid control of the Warren Commission by the simple expedient of having four of the Commissioners belonging to them; Dulles, Ford, McCloy and Russell. They were also able to kill enough people who knew the truth, to slow down any truth-seeking that might have taken place. They also hid documents, destroyed and altered evidence, lied about other evidence, and bald facedly (Dulles) admitted that they wouldn't tell the President or the Commission if Lee Harvey Oswald had been a CIA agent (which he had been). In the Rockefeller Commission situation they were in complete control of that attempt to reinforce the Warren Commission's findings. And in the Church Committee investigation, the Schweiker/Hart subcommittee on the JFK case was very limited and controlled in what they could do. But in the new situation, in Richard A. Sprague and his professionals with so much knowledge of the CIA's role in the murder and the cover-up, they faced a crisis. They knew they had to do several things to turn it around and to continue to keep the American public from realizing what was happening. Here is what they had to do: Get rid of Richard A. Sprague. Get rid of Henry Gonzalez. Get rid of Sprague's key men or keep them away from CIA evidence or keep them quiet. Install their own chief counsel to control the investigation. Elect a new HSCA chairman who would go along, or who could be fooled. Cut off all Sprague's investigations of CIA people. Make sure none of the people were found or bury any testimony that had already been found, or murder CIA people who might talk. Keep the committee members from knowing what was happening and segregate the investigation from them. Create a new investigative environment whose purpose would be to confirm all of the findings of the Warren Commission and divert attention away from the who-did-it-and-why approach. Control the committee staff in such a way as to keep any of them from revealing what they already knew about CIA involvement. Control committee consultants in the same way, and staff members who might leave or who might be fired. Continue to control the media in such a way as to reinforce all of the above. Continue to murder witnesses or assassins in emergency situations if necessary. The CIA successfully did all twelve of these things. The techniques they used were much more subtle and devious than those they had used before, although they did continue with murders of potential HSCA witnesses and with media control Chapter 5 The Assassination of John Kennedy http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ToA/ToAchp5.html The assassination of President Kennedy can be considered one of a series of acts by the Power Control Group to regain the control they had lost when Nixon was defeated in 1960 and Kennedy threatened their existence. The evidence pointing toward intelligence involvement and the use of a variety of intelligence techniques in the assassination is substantial. Until and unless an investigation is conducted by a group with power and money equivalent to that of the Power Control Group, with the power to issue subpoenas and to protect witnesses, it will be very difficult to draw a completely accurate picture of the conspiracy to assassinate JFK.