William Plumlee
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Posts posted by William Plumlee
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While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans.
Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only.
If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ???
In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before.
Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH.
(I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum)
As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO
I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that.
Jack
Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid"
Dawn
As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time.
Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack.
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What do members think of Barr McClellan's "Blood Money and Power: How L.B.J. Killed J.F.K"? Has Barr published any new material on the subject since the publication of the book?
I am too close to this subject to have an objective opinion. Friends with Barr, friends with the man who got him the print expert, the now deceased Jay Harrison, friends with the expert, the late great Nathan Darby, friends with Richard Bartholomew, who also worked on this book....
That said, I believe Barr should have stuck with what he knew. And it was not "who killed JFK", in the sense that the critics know this case. Barr knew about LBJ, Ed Clark, Mac Wallace, all those parts of the book are awesome. BUT Mac Wallace was never target practicing with LHO, and other errors too numerous to mention. The "faction" part of the book needed a lot of editing.
Barr has been working to get the psychiatric records for a long time (good luck there!) and I believe this would substantiate a lot. Last time we spoke Barr was wroking on either an update, or sequel, not sure which, but he's not about to drop this matter. It cost him his law practice and he is deeply committed to his belief that LBJ had JFK killed. Nathan Darby was not the only expert who made the print match. And there is more to come on this matter as well.
Dawn
Thanks Dawn. Those are very valid points you made. I feel anyone serious about the assassination cannot really understand the machanics and background of same, unless they study and understand the Texas connection to the assassination. That does not rule out others associated with government agencies, military industrial complex, Hoover's FBI, and the likes. There were other fingerprints found much later than the ones Jay found. Those prints also were a match as to the person mentioned in the book. I hope to have more information on this after the meeting. Anything you would care for me to ask that source, just let me know via Email.
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While Estes may know a lot about the assassination, I don't buy his story (seconded here by Tosh Plumlee) that it was entirely a Texas operation, just the Texas way of doing business, a "turkey shoot" involving LBJ and his Texas friends. JM/WAVE, for example, was not in Texas, nor is the city of New Orleans.
Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only.
If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ???
In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before.
Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH.
(I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum)
As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO
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Tosh -
Sorry to keep jumping around within this thread, but this talk of radio station's broadcasting abort signals, etc. got me to remembering something else I wanted to ask you:
Do you have any recollection of Ray Carnay, former news director of KBOX in Dallas in the early 1960s? He used to interview Charlie Waters and other anti-Castro Cubans a lot on the air ...
No. I did not know him, but I did know Johnny Box (I think his first name was John) who owned KBOX he was a friend of Gordon Mc Clindon of KLIF. (Gary Mack might remember those days) Also Johnny Box also owned other radio stations around the country which had agency people place on retainer to monitor anything which might relate to "On-Going" operations of a sensitive nature concerning matters associated with government interest. ("perhaps under the heading of "Mockingbird", my opinion)
There was another person in this loop; Bud Camron Lee who was with Holliday Radio of Golden Colorado. (KXXI) that was an agency operation cover. Jerry Rohdes worked for this station before going with KIMN (?) and KAT Radio also of Denver (1959-64 era)
As to Francesca's question about radio KLIF:
I am not sure about how the coded song came to be played in Dallas on KLIF. I was just told it would be played if matters were not to continue. (We had used that proceedure on other occausions; example MIAMI and SWAN Island Radio, private) M. Rojas, my pilot, I was co-pilot, told me this..., I have never told anyone about that. I have wanted to see if anyone else knew about that song from Miami days and the Dallas connection to it. And if so then I would know something about the person who named the song, or that source, and where they came from..., its kind of like tearing a dollar bill in half and comparing the halves when a contact is made... So far nothing on this.
I did hear that another person knew about a connection to radio KBOX and a song that was a "contact" a way to make contact with the Dallas CIA Contacts DIV and their P.O. drop box. However, the source could not name the song and I decided there was nothing to the sources story.
(another reason for withholding this information was because it touched upon, ("Meathods and Proceedures") a that could get you in trouble with the Agency.)
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Also found this:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6
The McAllister Hotel that Tosh mentioned before is referred to on page 7
Francesca:
The following was posted on Nov.21,2004. This was before the declassified document appeared on the MF site.
"... William Galvez was with Castro in the southern part of Cuba at the time of the United Fruit hostages. There was one "Gingo with Matos for a short time before he went back to Gitmo and that was Tom Mosness (pho) also known as "The Cowboy
The rebel in front of me could be the one you speak of. But I had another name in mind a war name perhaps you can tell me that name? The picture was staged for press coverage and Velma Espin (Debora) gave me the M-1 and I fell in behind this person. Carlos was behind me. Later these rebels (Carlos) got me to a safe place and I was picked up by a Texaco PBY from Marathon and then went to Miami.
Carlos's daughter and her boyfried were both killed by Batista' goons at the Humboldt Apartment complex during a meeting. This was after the Palace Attack on Batista. Marquesto, an informant, was responsible for tipping off the police. Some years later Carlos killed Marquesto by throwing him, chained and bound froma C-46 Regina Air Cargo aircraft. I was co-pilot and Rojas was pilot IC. Sergio (?)Sanchez did have a brother who was with Castro in 1958 but not sure if he was at Rauls hidaway at the time of the hostages in 1957.
I was debriefed at Sloopy Joes on Flager St downtown Miami and the Mc Allister Hotel. (Biscanne and Flagger) We meet others across the street at Bay Front Park where we meet with Johnney Farentallo and John Martino and Larry Allen. John Martino went to a rooming house (Nellies? I think it was) to pick up a package and then all of us went to the safe house on SW 9th Terrace in Coral Gables. I had a room at the Green Mansions, Miami Springs across from Eastern Airlines. I worked for Riddle Airlines and Regina Air Cargo of Miami The Dodge Corp was our cut-out cover employment (Dodge Island is where stolden guns were stored from National Guard Armories. They were later flown, by me and others, to the M-26-7 and the Students. ...".
* "Poinsetta"
Tosh ...". (Found at 'Tosh Plumlee' topic, dated Nov. 21, 2004 End
* POINSETTA was a code name we used taken from the song. (The words from the song are: "Poinsetta Your Branches Speak to me of Love... Pale Moon casting Shadows from Above") This meant to ABORT the mission. It would play on Miami Radio stations which we monitored when flying into a hot area or a questionable mission.
It would also play on radio station KLIF in Dallas when we went into Dallas to stop the assassination.., if the abort mission had been called off for any reason.
Have you ran across the name "Mc Mahon" (not sure of the first name) and "John Mc Cord"?
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Moved from other thread:
"... By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye witness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetery with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pentagon, over there", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greenberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboard was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
Talk to the wives of the pilots killed in the crash...., talk to their children. Take a look at the passenger's list and go and talk to their families. Talk to the doctors at the hospitals. Talk to the doctors and asked what was told to them by their patients.
Then come back on this forum and tell us what you found out. Look these people in the eye and tell them their love ones are not dead, that they were not on an airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, because they did not exist. Tell the children of these families that their mothers and fathers did not die in a plane that crash into the pentagon. Tell the first responders that they are all liars and be sure and tell the families they are liars also. Look them in the eye and tell them that.
None of you have the GUTS to do that, because you are COWARDS and hide in your closets and spit out Venom, and call yourselves professional researchers.
You people make me sick. And I refuse to be associated with any of you. And too, I refuse to be a part of a Forum that would allow this type of SLOPPY Research and special interest to put this type of CRAP in this forum with nothing more to back up their research than their theories and opinions presented as facts. A new generation looks to us as examples. They only seek truth, because they care. They are only trying to establish the facts behind such a tragic event.
.
Pentagon Conspiracy my XXX . I have reviewed many threads these past few weeks and I have yet to see anything move forward on the JFK investigation except name calling, rock throwing, back bitting, and the likes.
And I will not let the door hit me in the XXX on my way out. TOSH
Edited for objectionable words.
T. It is news to me after all this time that you were on 'hand' at the Pentagon...but whatever. Jack White worked long and hard on your past and got Wilson involved, along with Wecht and myself. Let's not cast stones, as none of us are free of 'sin'. If ya want to know about 'crazy' meet my friend Wavy Gravy
http://www.wavygravy.net/ [or for insanity of a totally different kind - any 'W' site.....hang in there T....]
posted on another location:
"... As to Jack. He is a very good man and as we all know has done exceptional work in the past. We might not always agree with him, as you and I know, but each of us in our own way does try to help solve difficult cases and expose things we feel are true. Our intentions are good and we stand behind what we know and believe. There are others who have other motives and they know who they are.
By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind....".
I admire Jack and his past works and I think him a gentleman with honor. However, his current work stinks.
And too, Peter... you never tolf me that Jack was working on the south Knoll Photo and had asked Wilson to take a look. If you remember you told me "SOMEONE" was working on it BUT you could not say who at thiat time. It was to SECRET. for me to know.
My wife works at the Pentagon and was there that day. Where do you think I would be? And too, I do not tell people my every move, or even what I think and when I go to the bathroom. I guess thats "withholding information". And again too.., at that time we were not talking. Remember?
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I'm sure most folks will see it under YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY thread first. It has a rather catchy title, and. IMO,is a definite draw for the audience.
I would like you to know that not everyone has the same interests, and not everyone reads all the threads. To summarize everyone as being crazy may be just a bit much, ya think??
I apologize for lumping all on this forum as being CRAZY. The ones I made reference know who they are as well as the professionals who work hard on this forum.. Again I apologize to those but not the others. And my feelings have not change as to my association here.
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Moved from other thread:
"... By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye witness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetery with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pentagon, over there", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greenberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboard was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
Talk to the wives of the pilots killed in the crash...., talk to their children. Take a look at the passenger's list and go and talk to their families. Talk to the doctors at the hospitals. Talk to the doctors and asked what was told to them by their patients.
Then come back on this forum and tell us what you found out. Look these people in the eye and tell them their love ones are not dead, that they were not on an airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, because they did not exist. Tell the children of these families that their mothers and fathers did not die in a plane that crash into the pentagon. Tell the first responders that they are all liars and be sure and tell the families they are liars also. Look them in the eye and tell them that.
None of you have the GUTS to do that, because you are COWARDS and hide in your closets and spit out Venom, and call yourselves professional researchers.
You people make me sick. And I refuse to be associated with any of you. And too, I refuse to be a part of a Forum that would allow this type of SLOPPY Research and special interest to put this type of CRAP in this forum with nothing more to back up their research than their theories and opinions presented as facts. A new generation looks to us as examples. They only seek truth, because they care. They are only trying to establish the facts behind such a tragic event.
.
Pentagon Conspiracy my XXX . I have reviewed many threads these past few weeks and I have yet to see anything move forward on the JFK investigation except name calling, rock throwing, back bitting, and the likes.
And I will not let the door hit me in the XXX on my way out. TOSH
Edited for objectionable words.
You shouldn't direct this post at everyone Tosh. Most here are good solid researchers. If only the crazes would stop using this board to get publicity for their radio shows and D.V.D.'s etc this could be a really productive place. Denis.
I apologize for lumping all on this forum as being CRAZY. The ones I made reference know who they are as well as the professionals who work hard on this forum.. Again I apologize to those but not the others. And my feelings have not change as to my association here.
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I did a search on the MF site and I got hits under both the name 'Capehart' and 'Damon' but from what I've seen so far both sets of documents seem to be entirely separate from the other, as if two separate people.
Anyway, some interesting ones on Capehart - one CIA memo dated only 2 days before the assassination with some brief biographical data:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2
Then what I found interesting is that only four days after the assassination the CIA wanted to carry out a name check of him at various government agencies. I wonder why the sudden interest?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=381310
Francisca:
This not meant to offend you. I consider you a very good researcher. You can take the following for whats its worth. :
I told this source what I thought about this post when he was alive. I told forum members also:
THE Following is PURE BS.
from an old thread of GPH:
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"... Jim Lesar, Esq. is the highest rated FOIA expert in this community, and he might well agree that the good judge should have petitioned for a "Vaughan Index" while the matter was still in the "Administrative Law" arena.
As for Capehart, we knew him as "George Damon" during 1962. The NARA FBI files
[both "302s" & "LHMs"] describe him as a transient gun dealer. He first showed up amidst our Missile Crisis operations during the Summer of 1962, which automatically made him suspect. He arrived at the doorstep of our "Federicos" safehouse on NW 6th Ave., driving a gaudy white Cadillac convertible; with the top down of course.
[Tom Dunkin mentions having to sleep in a car outside Federico's one night]
Damon got to the point quickly, in his, what I then thought then, was a Texas, not "Okie" twang. He had guns for us, but we would have to run a "special" mission with these weapons before we could use them elsewhere. When warned that the local cops & ATTU were "coming-down-heavy" on gun-runners, he pulled out a brand new business card with the name of a Justice Department official embossed thereon, along with the usual color DOJ seal. He stated more than once that anytime he was stopped by Feds, he simply displayed one of these cards, and told the agents to make the call from a secure telephone -- which quickly caused them to ride off into the sunset !!
When I stated that this wouldn't work with local cops, he said that he didn't exhibit the card, but simply stonewalled them, or bailed himself out of the "vagrancy" charge; but if a ranking cop entered the picture, he would direct him to call the Miami FBI/FO for further info. This routinely caused his immediate release and the return of his impounded convertible "Canoe".
Manolo Reboso stated [at the Banak Lumber Company "cover" office] that he had seen Damon at Hickory Hill more than once, and that folks there considered him to be a quite reckless "wild-card" -- but in Spanish he used "rienda suelta" [loose reined]; and that we should be careful in dealing with this "Yonny".
Years later, when infrequently watching "Starsky & Hutch", the actor David Soul would remind me of this clown.
We never heard anything on him after 1962, and it was the FOIA releases which reminded us of this one of the many strange dudes-about-town of the era.
Cheers,
GPH ...".
This was post earlier 02-25-08
"... note: (RECAP)
In one field report a photo was shown to a questionable source and another was put beside it with the name Damon written in the margin. (which was not the name of the person in the photo) The source at first said he did not know any of those in the picture. Later he droped the name Damon and connected it with an operation that did not exist. A few days later this source contacted the Miami Station and told a story that Damon was CIA and worked for him in south Florida. A picture was shown this source without the name written in the margin. He ID'ed the photo as Damon. It was not. He was asked to state the name of the operation in south Florida. He could not do that. He took a lie detector test and failed. CI-3 source mention a fake name and the source ID'ed that name as the operation. The source was dismissed at that point. (Miami Station, field report..., classified)
As to Damon being Waters I doubt that as I recall..., Damon was taller and Damon was a code name at the time for operation DAMON, or DEMON ??? memory; concerning Dominican Security Forces. I did know a Damon or of a Damon but this was years later, and I do not think he was associated with the earlier operations (my speculations)
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The 9/11 posts have been moved over to this thread in the Political Conspiracies section.
If you want to primarily discuss 9/11, please do it there.
I am sure the following will be taken off the forum. But I wanted some to see it before it was removed. I will continue to work with any serious researchers into the JFK assassination and my associations with same: You can forward this if you like.
Moved from other thread:
"... By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye witness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetery with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pentagon, over there", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greenberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboard was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
Talk to the wives of the pilots killed in the crash...., talk to their children. Take a look at the passenger's list and go and talk to their families. Talk to the doctors at the hospitals. Talk to the doctors and asked what was told to them by their patients.
Then come back on this forum and tell us what you found out. Look these people in the eye and tell them their love ones are not dead, that they were not on an airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, because they did not exist. Tell the children of these families that their mothers and fathers did not die in a plane that crash into the pentagon. Tell the first responders that they are all liars and be sure and tell the families they are liars also. Look them in the eye and tell them that.
None of you have the GUTS to do that, because you are COWARDS and hide in your closets and spit out Venom, and call yourselves professional researchers.
You people make me sick. And I refuse to be associated with any of you. And too, I refuse to be a part of a Forum that would allow this type of SLOPPY Research and special interest to put this type of CRAP in this forum with nothing more to back up their research than their theories and opinions presented as facts. A new generation looks to us as examples. They only seek truth, because they care. They are only trying to establish the facts behind such a tragic event.
.
Pentagon Conspiracy my XXX. I have reviewed many threads these past few weeks and I have yet to see anything move forward on the JFK investigation except name calling, rock throwing, back bitting, and the likes.
And I will not let the door hit me in the XXX on my way out. TOSH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Moved from other thread:
"... By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye witness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetery with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pentagon, over there", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greenberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboard was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
Talk to the wives of the pilots killed in the crash...., talk to their children. Take a look at the passenger's list and go and talk to their families. Talk to the doctors at the hospitals. Talk to the doctors and asked what was told to them by their patients.
Then come back on this forum and tell us what you found out. Look these people in the eye and tell them their love ones are not dead, that they were not on an airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, because they did not exist. Tell the children of these families that their mothers and fathers did not die in a plane that crash into the pentagon. Tell the first responders that they are all liars and be sure and tell the families they are liars also. Look them in the eye and tell them that.
None of you have the GUTS to do that, because you are COWARDS and hide in your closets and spit out Venom, and call yourselves professional researchers.
You people make me sick. And I refuse to be associated with any of you. And too, I refuse to be a part of a Forum that would allow this type of SLOPPY Research and special interest to put this type of CRAP in this forum with nothing more to back up their research than their theories and opinions presented as facts. A new generation looks to us as examples. They only seek truth, because they care. They are only trying to establish the facts behind such a tragic event.
.
Pentagon Conspiracy my XXX . I have reviewed many threads these past few weeks and I have yet to see anything move forward on the JFK investigation except name calling, rock throwing, back bitting, and the likes.
And I will not let the door hit me in the XXX on my way out. TOSH
Edited for objectionable words.
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How do people simply discount the eyewitness statements?
14 Videos which have eyewitness accounts
I posted this earlier, but it is worth repeating:
104 directly saw the plane hit the Pentagon.
6 were nearly hit by the plane in front of the Pentagon. Several others were within 100-200 feet of the impact.
26 mentioned that it was an American Airlines jet.
39 others mentioned that it was a large jet/commercial airliner.
2 described a smaller corporate jet. 1 described a "commuter plane" but didn't mention the size.
7 said it was a Boeing 757.
8 witnesses were pilots. One witness was an Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower Chief.
2 witnesses were firefighters working on their truck at the Pentagon heliport.
4 made radio calls to inform emergency services that a plane had hit the Pentagon.
10 said the plane's flaps and landing gear were not deployed (1 thought landing gear struck a light pole).
16 mentioned seeing the plane hit light poles/trees, or were next to to the poles when it happened. Another 8 mentioned the light poles being knocked down: it's unknown if they saw them hit.
42 mentioned seeing aircraft debris. 4 mentioned seeing airline seats. 3 mentioned engine parts.
2 mentioned bodies still strapped into seats.
15 mentioned smelling or contacting aviation/jet fuel.
3 had vehicles damaged by light poles or aircraft debris. Several saw other occupied vehicles damaged.
3 took photographs of the aftermath.
Many mentioned false alarm warnings of other incoming planes after the crash. One said "3-4 warnings."
And of course,
0 saw a military aircraft or missile strike the Pentagon.
0 saw a plane narrowly miss the Pentagon and fly away.
Moved from other thread:
"... By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye witness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetery with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pentagon, over there", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greenberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboard was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
Talk to the wives of the pilots killed in the crash...., talk to their children. Take a look at the passenger's list and go and talk to their families. Talk to the doctors at the hospitals. Talk to the doctors and asked what was told to them by their patients.
Then come back on this forum and tell us what you found out. Look these people in the eye and tell them their love ones are not dead, that they were not on an airliner that crashed into the Pentagon, because they did not exist. Tell the children of these families that their mothers and fathers did not die in a plane that crash into the pentagon. Tell the first responders that they are all liars and be sure and tell the families they are liars also. Look them in the eye and tell them that.
None of you have the GUTS to do that, because you are COWARDS and hide in your closets and spit out Venom.
You people make me sick. And I refuse to be associated with any of you. And too, I refuse to be a part of a Forum that would allow this type of SLOPPY Research and special interest asshole to put this type of CRAP in this forum with nothing more to back up their research than their theories and opinions presented as facts. A new generation looks to us as examples. They only seek truth, because they care. They are only trying to establish the facts behind such a tragic event.
I will no longer be a part of this group...or this FORUM... I'm out of here... and I am sure some of you will say GOOD Riddance. But I could care less what you think. You have proven to me what you really are
Conspiracy my ASS.
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Francesca:
Do you have anything on Operation FULBERT or FUBELT Chile? I think it was launched around 1970 or there abouts.
I just had a look on the MF site but the only document that comes up mentioning it is quite heavily blanked out:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3
Francesca:
I take it you did find some information on Operation FULBERT. Right? I have not checked as yet because of time. I just recalled the name and thought I would ask. I wonder if James has anything on that? I think there could be some tie-in names in that operation which could help... But NOT sure. Thanks for the update. I will go on the CIA site when I have time and see what I can find (Electronic Briefing Room) I have been at this all day again. I am just trying to keep a promise I made to a friend on Posting.
Something has just came up which is of interest to me. It concerns an old friend, Tom Mosness (I'll double check the spelling) Any help would be apreciated.
I do not know anything about FULBERT/FUBELT myself but only that document on the MF site. Searching under 'FULBERT' didn't bring anything up, but searching under 'FUBERT' did but only that doc.
As you say James R or others may know more.
P.S. I am not sure if I posted this on another thread or not. I am tired and corn-fused. If I did then please forgive."... note:
In one field report a photo was shown to a questionable source and another was put beside it with the name Damon written in the margin. (which was not the name of the person in the photo) The source at first said he did not know any of those in the picture. Later he droped the name Damon and connected it with an operation that did not exist. A few days later this source contacted the Miami Station and told a story that Damon was CIA and worked for him in south Florida. A picture was shown this source without the name written in the margin. He ID'ed the photo as Damon. It was not. He was asked to state the name of the operation in south Florida. He could not do that. CI-3 source mention a fake name and the source ID'ed that name as the operation. The source was dismissed at that point.
As to Damon being Waters I doubt that as I recall..., Damon was taller and Damon was a code name at the time for operation DAMON, or DEMON ??? memory; concerning Dominican Security Forces. I did know a Damon or of a Damon but this was years later, and I do not think he was associated with the earlier operations (my speculations)
No I don't think you posted this elsewhere. Is this from a document or your own notes if I may ask?
I think others will be interested in this too. Thanks.
Its from a still classified document from a debriefing at JM/WAVE's "Quarter Eye" section of the Covert Action Group, (CAG) OMC-235, which was headed up by Ted Schackley. (sp) I have recalled it hear from memory. Of course I am sure some will say, "If its not in print or found in some book, somewhere.., or if Plumlee can't produce it, then it did not happen" We miss so much because of that attitude toward unknown matters not public. It will be in the book "Deep Cover; Shallow Graves"... sch release date Oct 2008. After that then it would of happened and be quoted as fact, I'm sure.
The history of "Quarter Eye" is very interesting in itsself..., but I go off subject..... in short... "Quarter Eye" was the old WWII Navy building used by the Navy's women Waves of WW11, as they were called. It was located on I Streed (I think), in Washington DC. Shortly after the CIA was formed this building was converted and used by them, the CIA, until Langley was built. Some years later when the operations in Florida were launched, that operation was first called WAVE; in reference to the Navy's ladies of WWII. For awhile, in Washington, it was known as 'WAVE Station". Then called Miami Station after operations had been moved down there. When Richmond Naval Air Station on the Campus of Miami University were taken over by the CIA it was called JM/WAVE. (about 1960-61, if I remember right)
Please forgive the drifting... old men are allowed to do that. That is one of the Perks of oldage.
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An old post:
QUOTE(dankbaar @ Jul 13 2004, 03:48 PM)
Jack,
You are turning the world upside down. When people disagree with
some of your claims, you call them provocateurs, accuse them of unfair and
personal attacks, bad behaviour etcetera, a thin excuse to avoid answering
real and valid questions, like what conspiratoral purpose is served by
putting Mary Moorman on the street or switching Mrs. Franzen for a "mystery
woman".
Who do you think you are to judge who are good and bad members?
While I can acknowledge you have done some excellent
photographical analysis, particularly on the backyard photographs, some of
your alteration claims are indeed nutty.
When reasonable input is brought to him, James Fetzer can admit he
needs to revise some of your work. But you simply seem unable to admit that
you can be wrong.
While I do not always agree with Bill Miller, I have never found
his behaviour less than impecable. So who is attacking who here? I share a
similar experience with him on the forum of Mr. della Rosa's, whom you
marvel so much. And I understand we're not the only ones. The common
denominator seems to be not our behaviour but the mere fact we challlenge
your claims.
You agreed to answer questions, but the tough ones you ignore.
Who do you think you are to play victim of unfair treatment, while
at the same time you may accuse Judyth Baker of lying and making up "phoney
claims" (your words). Who do you think you are to suggest it is right that
her supporters are denied access from defending her against your very
personal attacks. With a man of your grandness I must assume that the fact
that she totally ruins your "Harvey and Lee/Marguerite A and B" theories,
have nothing to do with your denouncements of her?
Think of that folks, there were not only 2 different Oswalds,
according to Jack, there were two different mothers (Marguerites), as early
as 7 years before the Kennedy assassination. And those who dare to challenge
that are provocateurs and liars. Well, Jack, I am not going to sit by idle
when you accuse what I consider extremely brave people, like Judyth Baker
and Chauncey Holt, of liars and hoaxes. If you want to brand that as
disruptive behaviour, so be it. I'm not falling for it, even if I would be
the only one.
You probably don't want to see a tie between Ochsner and Oswald,
but other people might be interested:
http://www.conelrad.com/media/atomicmusic/....php?platter=19
Read the backflap of this 1964 longplayer sponsored by Ochsner's
INCA, they are called "the truth tapes", implicating Lee as the lone
assassin. What does the head of the american cancer society have to do with
blaming Oswald as the lone psychopath nut ???? The answer is 1) a CANCER
bioweapon and 2) covering his ass!
Wim
Wim;
Careful, careful, or the "Boggy man" will get you for using that bad bad word.
I for one happen to believe Judith and you know my feelings about Holt. Jimmy is another matter, as you know. Judith, I believe because of things I knew about long before I even heard of her. It was those early tie ins which caused me to side with her. We all make mistakes and sometimes do not present our cases or points in the right manner or framed them in such a way that others think should be.
As to Jack. He is a very good man and as we all know has done exceptional work in the past. We might not always agree with him, as you and I know, but each of us in our own way does try to help solve difficult cases and expose things we feel are true. Our intentions are good and we stand behind what we know and believe. There are others who have other motives and they know who they are.
By mistake I called Jack a POS when I should have said his research on the Pentagon was a POS and it was not 'Pile of S..., it was a Piece of S..., this I will stand behind.
note: from an eye whitness who was stopped near the Arlington Cemetary with backed up traffic. "I saw this Big airplane swoop down and I said OH! MY GOD! RUN RUN, we thought it was going to crash on us. And then it went over and shook the ground. It hit the Pennagon, overthere", she pointed. Eve Brown, Falls Church, VA.
From Sam Bartel of Greensberg PA. "My wife and I were riding on 395 when we saw this AIRLINER flying low. At first I thought it was going to land at the airport, but I told my wife, Its to low and then OH Jesus!, I said. And then it hit..."
There are over a hundred of these type of reports. I guess these people as well as all the fireman and those inside with the smell of burning jet fuel, trying to save their friends from death, are all part of this massive "cover-up".
The 911 recorded calls, also show where many said "An Airliner just crashed into the Pentagon". The switchboad was jammed within five minutes with reports. I guess they too, work for the government and are part of a "cover up", and conspiracy.
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If there is benefit to be discerned from the exchanges I recently initiated regarding Gary Mack, I suggest it lies within consideration of the passionately and self-righteously delivered claim by so many posters ostensibly on the side of truth and justice that conspiracy is simply a matter of opinion.
And so Housman is brought to mind ...
What can I do, what can I write
Against the fall of night?
I have reached the conclusion that the fight, at least for me, is best fought elsewhere than in these cyberpages.
The truth may be rendered as a simple statement of fact and is inescapable save through ignorance and/or corruption:
Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in the JFK assassination who does not conclude that President Kennedy was murdered by conspirators is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.
The field is not mine to cede. I simply move to a different line to stage what passes for an offensive of my own choosing.
To those who, as a consequence of their dementia and/or criminal intent, deny conspiracy, I offer only this: Pray for a cure and/or forgiveness.
To those who choose to continue the fight on this, a ground that your sacrifices have hallowed, I offer my solidarity and respect.
As for me, I shall continue in a different manner to speak and to write against the fall of night.
Watch your newspapers.
Charles R. Drago
February 25, 2008
Charles: I know how you feel. If I can be of ANY help in your quest in the future, just let me know. I have a few promises to keep and I too will wrap it up as to working through Forums. They have become to contaminated and total objectivity has been lost to those who in my opinion have mental problums in one forum or another. Perhaps, I too, have mental problums or I would not be here. I have recently reviewed many threads posted over the years and I see nothing which has been accomplished in the directions this Forum was created for. I see a total lack of focus, both pro and con on the Kennedy matter. I see egos more than facts as to this case. As they said in OPS "CIP" "Keep in Touch". Your friend Tosh
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Francesca:
Do you have anything on Operation FULBERT or FUBELT Chile? I think it was launched around 1970 or there abouts.
I just had a look on the MF site but the only document that comes up mentioning it is quite heavily blanked out:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3
Francesca:
I take it you did find some information on Operation FULBERT. Right? I have not checked as yet because of time. I just recalled the name and thought I would ask. I wonder if James has anything on that? I think there could be some tie-in names in that operation which could help... But NOT sure. Thanks for the update. I will go on the CIA site when I have time and see what I can find (Electronic Briefing Room) I have been at this all day again. I am just trying to keep a promise I made to a friend on Posting.
Something has just came up which is of interest to me. It concerns an old friend, Tom Mosness (I'll double check the spelling) Any help would be apreciated.
P.S. I am not sure if I posted this on another thread or not. I am tired and corn-fused. If I did then please forgive.
"... note:
In one field report a photo was shown to a questionable source and another was put beside it with the name Damon written in the margin. (which was not the name of the person in the photo) The source at first said he did not know any of those in the picture. Later he droped the name Damon and connected it with an operation that did not exist. A few days later this source contacted the Miami Station and told a story that Damon was CIA and worked for him in south Florida. A picture was shown this source without the name written in the margin. He ID'ed the photo as Damon. It was not. He was asked to state the name of the operation in south Florida. He could not do that. CI-3 source mention a fake name and the source ID'ed that name as the operation. The source was dismissed at that point.
As to Damon being Waters I doubt that as I recall..., Damon was taller and Damon was a code name at the time for operation DAMON, or DEMON ??? memory; concerning Dominican Security Forces. I did know a Damon or of a Damon but this was years later, and I do not think he was associated with the earlier operations (my speculations)
Francesca: Not sure if this will help. There is a book out the might cast light on a few names who were players in the early days of the 'Cuban Project' It is also call the "Cuban Project " by Escalantee, Fabin???, I think... Perhaps you have read it. I have not. None the less some of it is very close to what I know, I have been told. A friend a few years ago told me to read about operation Pluto on pages 64-75, I think it was. I found a reference on Amazon along with a tag about the book:
The Tag Intro:
"...This is an intriguing tale of a "regime change" project that failed. The CIA's "Cuba Project" to remove Fidel Castro became the largest ever covert action program conducted by one nation against another. It included assassinations...".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...45/Mangoose.jpg
Perhaps this is of no help and I do not mean to clutter you work, but thought you might like to have it as "Background".
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Francesca:
Do you have anything on Operation FULBERT or FUBELT Chile? I think it was launched around 1970 or there abouts.
I just had a look on the MF site but the only document that comes up mentioning it is quite heavily blanked out:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3
Francesca:
I take it you did find some information on Operation FULBERT. Right? I have not checked as yet because of time. I just recalled the name and thought I would ask. I wonder if James has anything on that? I think there could be some tie-in names in that operation which could help... But NOT sure. Thanks for the update. I will go on the CIA site when I have time and see what I can find (Electronic Briefing Room) I have been at this all day again. I am just trying to keep a promise I made to a friend on Posting.
Something has just came up which is of interest to me. It concerns an old friend, Tom Mosness (I'll double check the spelling) Any help would be apreciated.
P.S. I am not sure if I posted this on another thread or not. I am tired and corn-fused. If I did then please forgive.
"... note:
In one field report a photo was shown to a questionable source and another was put beside it with the name Damon written in the margin. (which was not the name of the person in the photo) The source at first said he did not know any of those in the picture. Later he droped the name Damon and connected it with an operation that did not exist. A few days later this source contacted the Miami Station and told a story that Damon was CIA and worked for him in south Florida. A picture was shown this source without the name written in the margin. He ID'ed the photo as Damon. It was not. He was asked to state the name of the operation in south Florida. He could not do that. CI-3 source mention a fake name and the source ID'ed that name as the operation. The source was dismissed at that point.
As to Damon being Waters I doubt that as I recall..., Damon was taller and Damon was a code name at the time for operation DAMON, or DEMON ??? memory; concerning Dominican Security Forces. I did know a Damon or of a Damon but this was years later, and I do not think he was associated with the earlier operations (my speculations)
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I am not sure if my memory serves me right on this. I am working off recall as to Capehart; so if this does not fit in the record then please forgive. I have a "cobweb" of old memories. My motive is to try and help if I can.
There is a report (perhaps still classified) from the Santiago, Chile, CIA Station Chief (Harry Huckser) concerning one Charlie Capehart also known as "Blue" or "Blu", who was associated with special operations of a covert nature (not sure of the dates, (I can't remember for sure and will leave this blank for now) At one point he worked as a "Roughneck" in the oil and gas sector in the USA when he was "on the Farm" ( The Farm was a term used when an operative was not assigned to any operations at the time; another term used was "Free-Agent". Sometimes one could be, "at the Farm, or on the farm", for years before he was contracted out to a sanction operation.
(memory) At one point he was assigned to the "Dominican Desk" of the WH Div. of the TFW (Task Force-W) out of Miami Station. and was associated with Lester Murphy and others. Just what his assignment was I do not know. I was surprised his name popped up here. I will try to find out more on him and share with you. It was rumored he was in Dallas as a "**Spotter" I can not confirm that. (** Congress Thomas Downing, 1976) I can not recall at this time others who were associated with that operation who had connections to Capehart. Cut-Out names were used during those operations associated with TFW. Lester Murphy was "free lansing", contract employee.., for the Agency at tht tiime, I think.
On another note as to "Zamba". I was one of six pilots used in those operation to transport covert operatives into position on sensitive missions. As to Zamba being Morales? I can not say for sure. I would have to check the timeline for Morales. I feel this might have been a little before Morales. JM/WAVE was not yet formed and Miami Station was still understaffed. (impression)
Thanks again for your recollections. It's interesting to me that you mention Henry Hecksher as of course he was linked to Nagell - the 'BOB' he refers to in Dick Russell's book. To your knowledge was Hecksher closely associated with Capehart?
'Stanley Zamka' was an alias of Morales so I assumed that was him mentioned in the McAllister hotel document , unless I'm wrong and it was someone else using that name?
Might be better I'm thinking to post further info on Capheart/Damon on the thread about him blow so it's all in one place and easy to find:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=Capehart
I think Capehart worked Chile when Hecksher was CIA Station Chief down there. I always thought that Morales was known as 'Zamba' and too, which Morales are we talking about, the "Big Indian" or the other one... there were two Morales attatched to Miami Station.., if I remember right. Perhaps some can clear this for me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I tried to post my reply on the above referenced site. But it did not work... "site could not be found"
Thanks. I was talking about the 'Big Indian' David Morales. I don't know about him or the other one being known as 'Zamba', only 'Zamka' but perhaps someone more knowledgeable can help - Larry or James maybe? I did not know of two morales at JM/Wave but again I am not as knowledgeable as others on this.
Sorry the reason you couldn't post on the Capeheart thread is that I'm a fool and I pasted the link wrong!
The correct link is:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=Capehart
That should work. I came up with some hits on MF that I will post on there.
Francesca:
Do you have anything on Operation FULBERT or FUBELT Chile? I think it was launched around 1970 or there abouts.
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I am not sure if my memory serves me right on this. I am working off recall as to Capehart; so if this does not fit in the record then please forgive. I have a "cobweb" of old memories. My motive is to try and help if I can.
There is a report (perhaps still classified) from the Santiago, Chile, CIA Station Chief (Harry Huckser) concerning one Charlie Capehart also known as "Blue" or "Blu", who was associated with special operations of a covert nature (not sure of the dates, (I can't remember for sure and will leave this blank for now) At one point he worked as a "Roughneck" in the oil and gas sector in the USA when he was "on the Farm" ( The Farm was a term used when an operative was not assigned to any operations at the time; another term used was "Free-Agent". Sometimes one could be, "at the Farm, or on the farm", for years before he was contracted out to a sanction operation.
(memory) At one point he was assigned to the "Dominican Desk" of the WH Div. of the TFW (Task Force-W) out of Miami Station. and was associated with Lester Murphy and others. Just what his assignment was I do not know. I was surprised his name popped up here. I will try to find out more on him and share with you. It was rumored he was in Dallas as a "**Spotter" I can not confirm that. (** Congress Thomas Downing, 1976) I can not recall at this time others who were associated with that operation who had connections to Capehart. Cut-Out names were used during those operations associated with TFW. Lester Murphy was "free lansing", contract employee.., for the Agency at tht tiime, I think.
On another note as to "Zamba". I was one of six pilots used in those operation to transport covert operatives into position on sensitive missions. As to Zamba being Morales? I can not say for sure. I would have to check the timeline for Morales. I feel this might have been a little before Morales. JM/WAVE was not yet formed and Miami Station was still understaffed. (impression)
Thanks again for your recollections. It's interesting to me that you mention Henry Hecksher as of course he was linked to Nagell - the 'BOB' he refers to in Dick Russell's book. To your knowledge was Hecksher closely associated with Capehart?
'Stanley Zamka' was an alias of Morales so I assumed that was him mentioned in the McAllister hotel document , unless I'm wrong and it was someone else using that name?
Might be better I'm thinking to post further info on Capheart/Damon on the thread about him blow so it's all in one place and easy to find:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=Capehart
I think Capehart worked Chile when Hecksher was CIA Station Chief down there. I always thought that Morales was known as 'Zamba' and too, which Morales are we talking about, the "Big Indian" or the other one... there were two Morales attatched to Miami Station.., if I remember right. Perhaps some can clear this for me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I tried to post my reply on the above referenced site. But it did not work... "site could not be found"
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Please don't let this go off-track to a 9-11 specific debate; there are plenty of threads in the Political Conspiracies section in which that can be discussed.
Jack - please see here.
Thanks all.
Tosh has called me a pile of s---, so I will post anything I please to counter his
misinformation.
Why do you censure me instead of him? I thought name-calling was prohibited.
Jack
Jack: Please accept my Apologies for calling YOU a POS. You have not yet got that far in your research, but in my opinion your getting there fast. Perhaps I should have said..., "Your research in this reference is a POS".
However, I have lost a lot of respect for you, because of your position on this matter and others.
How can you say I did not see what I said I saw? What does that say about what you seem to be calling me?
AND too, what has my wife to do with any of this because she works at the Penntagon. Do you see something sinister in that? Are you trying to say something else?
Anyway its not important to me what you think about me or my wife. I will.., to the best of my ability.., try and stay focused on the FACTS and not speculate on anyones theories.
Again I apoligise for turning it personal. I just feel your off your Meds. Hang in there old man you've done good work in the past... lets, together, do some real factual work in the future.
The writing style the Tosh here now and the Tosh who was recently reported
killed in a plane crash differ significantly. I am not the only one who has noted
this.
Jack
Not sure what that means? Are there Two different people known as Tosh posting as one on this Forum? Is this another conspiercy launched by UFO people? Or is it a CIA thing? Jack the real true story follows:
The real, or the other Tosh who was reported killed in a plane crash, the one who it has been said 'Faked' his own death; was in reality abducted by little green men with short arms and tattoos. He was taken away in a big ole' spaceship along with Follet (?) Bronson's friend. They are on the moon being debriefed as we speak.., in one of those buildings up there. The building.., is on the Dartk Side of the Moon and you can't see it from earth.
The real Tosh should be back soon and has a few pictures he will share with those who are interested. I am not sure if Elves will be with him or not. I think Elves has another engagement and might not be able to make it. I hope Tosh gets back soon. I have had about enough of this Earth stuff and would like to get the Hell out of here. I have work to do on Jopalenia. There in a real war up there and that universe is about to blow and they do not even know it. I do hope I can stop it in time, and save that university. I will try to reach you in your dreams..., If I can get clearences from Gorge and the united League of Tarpanoleis. I am sorry if I offende you.... They told me to say that.
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Tosh,
I don't get it! A fundamental principle of reasoning is that the actual must be possible (meaning that nothing that actually happens can violate the laws of logic or the laws of science, in this case, of physics, engineering, and of aerodynamics. Here are some examples of what I have in mind:
The hit point at the Pentagon was too small to accommodate a 100-ton airliner with a 125-foot wingspan and a tail that stands 44 feet above the ground; the kind and quantity of debris was wrong for a Boeing 757: no wings, no fuselage, no seats, no bodies, no luggage, no tail!
The Pentagon's own videotape does not show a Boeing 757 hitting the building, as even Bill O'Reilly admitted when it was shown on "The Factor"; but at 155 feet, the plane was more than twice as long as the 77-foot Pentagon is high and should have been present and visible, but it was not
The image just above the gate mechanism in the single frame that shows what might be a plane is not only too small to be a Boeing 757 but is trailing white smoke, which is consistent with a missile but not jet engine exhaust.
The aerodynamics of flight would have made the official trajectory--flying at over 500 mph jusy barely above ground level--physically impossible, since the accumulated pocket of compressed gas (air) beneath the fuselage would have made it impossible to have flown closer to the ground than 60 feet.
If a Boeing 757 had flown just barely above ground to impact on the first floor, then its engines would have plowed massive furrows in the lawn, which is perfectly green, smooth, and uncluttered by any debris in photos taken shortly after impact.
If a Boeing 757 had flown just barely above ground to impact on the first floor, then wing/wind/wake turbulance would have massively disrupted the law, which is perfectly green, smooth, and uncluttered by any debris in photos taken shortly after impact.
If a Boeing 757 had come it at an angle instead, it's right wing would have hit the building first, spinning the plane clockwise and snapping off the tail or creating a massive crater; but there is no crater and the tail is not sitting on the lawn.
A piece of wreckage that was later photographed from more than one location has been traced back to a crash in Cali, Columbia, in 1998, and, like the other debris that subsequently appears on the lawn, appears to have been planted.
Pilots for 9/11 Truth have analyzed black box data allegedly from the Pentagon plane and discovered that it contradicts the official account in direction, approach, and altitude: it was 300 feet too high to have taken out the lampposts and 100 feet too high to have hit the building itself.
Jack's photo studies of the Pentagon illustrate many of the points I have made here. Indeed, the massive black smoke that intimidated the members of Congress when they looked across the Patomic is coming from a series of enormous dumpsters, not from the building itself.
You should not be faulting Jack. He has done his homework. The question is how you could be making reports about the Pentagon that cannot be true, because no Boeing 757 hit the building, although one may have passed over it. You are violating laws of physics, of engineering, and of aerodynamics.
Okay Jack. Let's take just one of the things that you claim to "know" and that I too know a bit about. You write:"I KNOW that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition because an undamaged steel building does not just collapse by itself. Many experts agree with this. I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided."
It is true that modern Class A steel frame buildings do not usually collapse. But WTC7 was not your usual Class A steel frame building and 9/11 was not a normal day.
The envisaged footprint of WTC7 was expanded by a third when it was built in the mid-eighties to squeeze out the last square inch of floor space. Since original pilings were already drilled to bedrock though the then existing ConEd substation, the expanded floor size could only be accomplished through the construction of three huge cantilever trusses which carried the expanded load back into the central structure. There was no redundancy in this design. If a major structural member failed, the building would come down. Secondly, there were 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel either in or under the building. Thirdly, "modern" construction techniques meant that wider spans of floors were supported by fewer columns. All this came together in a building that was much more delicate and subject to collapse than your ordinary steel building.
Secondly, you say WTC7 was "undamaged". You're wrong. Photos make clear that WTC7 was damaged by debris (flaming I-beams, facade members, aviation fuel) that hit it after the collapse of the South Tower and a second blow one-half hour later after the collapse of the North Tower. This building was hit substantially and fires started on numerous floors.
Finally, the severing of a twenty-inch water main on Vesey Street by the collapse of the North Tower meant there was no water to fight a high-rise fire in the building. After sending a reconnaissance team into the building to determine whether to try to fight fires in it, Chief Daniel Nigro made the command decision to let fires burn in the building unabated. Fires started in the building at around 10:30 AM and continued unabated until the building collapsed at 5:21 PM. These fires were fed by the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel in the building. Video of the collapse shows that it started on a lower floor at the approximate location of Column 79. This is the unanimous opinion of the structural engineers who have studied the collapse. Column 79 lies in a direct line over the most northeast of the three trusses mentioned above.
I'll bet when you decided that you "knew" the building was brought down by "controlled demolitions" you knew nothing of the above. If you choose to know nothing, you can hold any belief you want to hold and call it "knowledge." Then (as with the Fetzer-White-Costella claim concerning Officer Chaney) you can continue to believe it forever, never admitting you made a mistake.
What we are talking about here are the costs of never admitting you're wrong. I'll bet you'll continue never admitting you were wrong about Chaney and never admitting you are wrong about WTC7. Am i right?
quote name='Jack White' date='Feb 24 2008, 01:07 AM' post='138519']
Some people "do not admit their mistakes" BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MISTAKEN.
For instance, I KNOW that a Boeing jetliner did not hit the Pentagon, because there
is no genuine evidence of aircraft wreckage on the outside of the building, and
the small hole in the wall is too small for the entire plane to go inside the building.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that no cellphone calls were made from "hijacked" airliners on 911, because
many experts have said that was impossible. It is possible to provide indisputable
evidence of any calls made. That has never been done. I will not admit I am wrong unless
indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition because an
undamaged steel building does not just collapse by itself. Many experts agree with this.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill JFK. There are multitudinous proofs of this.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I could go on and on. Nobody should be bullied into accepting lies.
Jack
Jack I have to disagree. My wife works at the Pentagon for the Joint Chif of Staff J-2. I was there shortly after the crash and I saw the tail and the numbers in all the smoke and confussion AND DEATH. I watched as parts of the airliner was removed and firefighters fought the blaze while many were removing bodies. To tell me I did not see an airliner is a disservice to those who were killed. They were NOT killed my our goverment. I think some want to believe we would do something like that are real sick people. I think their motive is to sell stories and write books and add height to their lack of stature. At a time when we should rally together and stand firm as a solid nation, we have some who like to walk with lies and untruths to perhaps drawn attention to themselves and stroke their own egos.
I had respect for you as a researcher and as an American... that is now gone. I'm sure you do not give a crap what I think... But I am an American and I am damn proud of it. And in my own way I have fought hard for her and her flag. We are not perfect, but we are getting closer and you Sir are a real POS in my opinion.
James;
With respect. I will not be drawn into a debat on this. All I know is what I saw and too, what I saw on the "certified, time logged" radar tapes from Air Traffic Control. I talked to three people who escaped with their lives and spend days in a burn ward. I know what they told me. I talked to a Sargent who pulled people from burning Jet fuel and others who were still in shock days after.., and I know what they told me they saw and did after the impact. And I know what I saw.
Now if you want to call me a xxxx, then that is O.K. by me. I have been there before. I do not care to become involved in a "special interest conspiercy", regardless of the motives.
I do believe in little green men bouncing around in space; laughing their ARSE off at us. Its no wonder they do not want anything to do with earthlings after reading somethings we put in print.
You have a good day and leave me out of this. I did apoliges to Jack for the POS comment. Now I go in peace and I wish you the same. Just log me down as "disinformation" agent and be done with it.
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Please don't let this go off-track to a 9-11 specific debate; there are plenty of threads in the Political Conspiracies section in which that can be discussed.
Jack - please see here.
Thanks all.
Tosh has called me a pile of s---, so I will post anything I please to counter his
misinformation.
Why do you censure me instead of him? I thought name-calling was prohibited.
Jack
Jack: Please accept my Apologies for calling YOU a POS. You have not yet got that far in your research, but in my opinion your getting there fast. Perhaps I should have said..., "Your research in this reference is a POS".
However, I have lost a lot of respect for you, because of your position on this matter and others.
How can you say I did not see what I said I saw? What does that say about what you seem to be calling me?
AND too, what has my wife to do with any of this because she works at the Penntagon. Do you see something sinister in that? Are you trying to say something else?
Anyway its not important to me what you think about me or my wife. I will.., to the best of my ability.., try and stay focused on the FACTS and not speculate on anyones theories.
Again I apoligise for turning it personal. I just feel your off your Meds. Hang in there old man you've done good work in the past... lets, together, do some real factual work in the future.
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Why can’t we admit we made a mistake when we make one?
The other source of conflict concerns confessions and denials from people who may or may not be connected to the assassination. Some researchers believe characters such as Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, James Files, Judyth Vary Baker, etc. whereas others seriously doubt their testimony. These people are often the source of hostile debate.
"...Some researchers believe characters such as Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, James Files, Judyth Vary Baker, etc. whereas others seriously doubt their testimony.
Thank you John for your vote of confidence. I have never supported those stories. I have always tried to reference everthing I have had to say on this subject to the best of my ability.
Tosh, it was a mistake to put you in the same sentence as Gerry Hemming, James Files, and Judyth Vary Baker. I did not mean to imply that I do not consider you an unreliable witness although I can see why you thought this from the way I expressed myself. I have criticised the evidence provided by Hemming, Files and Baker on this forum but I have not done that in your case. I apologise unreservedly for my poor use of words.
John.
Thanks. We all make mistakes. God knows I head that list. You take care and forget it. We all have a lot of work to do; and I feel we should ALL rise above personal feelings and focus on the difficult job at hand.
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Drago to Mack:
Right after you provide me with hard evidence that Oswald was firing,[/b]
Mr. Mack was not quite clever enough when he constructed his question on the false premise that "hard" evidence exists to establish that LHO fired at President Kennedy on 11/22/63.
The burden is yours, sir. You are making the accusation, Mr. Mack. Where is your proof?
"We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle. No one has been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand." --Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, quoted by United Press International, November 5, 1969
There is no reliable eyewitness testimony placing LHO in the "assassin's nest" during the shooting.
There is no sustainable explanation for how LHO could have done the shooting, paused to admire his work (as eyewitnesses described a "figure" in the "assassin's window" doing after the final shots), wiped down and hidden his weapon beneath boxes, descended from the sixth to the second floor of the TSBD without being seen by individuals on the only available staircase during the time frame, and arrived in the lunchroom to enjoy a soft drink no later than 90 seconds after the shooting ceased.
CE 399 -- the so-called "magic" or "pristine" bullet -- may be ballistically linked to a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle allegedly purchased and owned by LHO. However, there is no sustainable evidence whatsoever to support the contentions that LHO ever transported that weapon to the TSBD, that the bullet now in evidence was the projectile found in Parkland Hospital, and that it struck either JFK or JBC.
No sustainable evidence whatsoever.
Neutron Activation Analysis (NAA) tests linking bullet fragments recovered from assassination victims to LHO's alleged ammunition have been fully discredited, have ZERO scientific reliability, and thus have no bearing on this case in terms of establishing LHO's guilt or innocence.
There is no sustainable forensic evidence to indicate that LHO fired a rifle on 11/22/63. Positive parrafin tests of his hands are just as likely to have resulted from his handling of printed materials during the performance of his TSBD job as from firing a pistol.
Parrafin tests of his cheeks -- where evidence of having fired a rifle would be expected to be noted -- were negative.
The presence of LHO's palm print on a portion of the rifle barrel that is not visible when the weapon is fully assembled is suspect. The print was not noted during initial intense examination by the FBI in the Bureau's state-of-the-art lab; rather, it was miraculously discovered after LHO was killed, and after a suspicious visit to the funeral home by government agents who may have applied the print post mortem.
LHO's post-assassination behavior hardly can be described as "flight." He went home, and in a relatively unhurried manner.
No one ever has suggested a plausible motive for LHO to kill JFK.
So, then ...
No means.
No motive.
No opportunity.
No physical evidence.
No photographic evidence.
No eyewitness evidence.
The only argument in support of LHO firing at JFK is an argument from false authority -- the state.
Charles Drago
Oswald's brother, Robert, has said on television that the reason Lee (Harvey) shot Kennedy was to make a name for himself, to go down in history as having shot a young president, the most prominent and celebrated man in the world.
Now, if this is true, why did Oswald tell the press he didn't shoot anyone and that he was a patsy? You would expeect him to be smiling and acting like a psychopath.
Kathy
Kathy:
Keep in mind that Oswald was not on very good terms with his family. He was a "lost sheep" from their viewpoint. And too, to me it is obvious that Robert was "speculating" at the time he made that statement and after seeing the wealth of information the FBI shared to the family. Iit was no wonder they too thought Oswald did the deed. In their eyes Oswald was "strange" and did strange things which they could not explain. Remember too, it was a different time and place for America. The Cold War was raging and Communism was the real threat, AND, in those days, our government cou;ld do no wrong. It was a different time and place..., before Watergate, Nixon, Iran/Contra and the likes.
Oswald and Ruby: The Transcript
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by William Plumlee
Bill and Steve:
Just something to consider.
I was told some years ago that there was an Oswald/Ruby transcript in the Dallas DA files.
The source (Jarginan) had stated to the DPD his knowledge about this Ruby Oswald conversation. He was asked by the DPD to come in and talk to Wade. Wade had him, 'write it out". He was asked to take a lie detector of which he (Jarginan) agreeed. He was also put under oath (I was told) before he provided the transcript.
A Dallas detective was assigned to the case and given a copy of the transcript. Jarginan failed the lie detector, and the detective checked his story and came back with an interesting story in itself. Jack Ruby's club had been closed for a small remodel job at the time Jarginan had said the conversation had taken place. Wade became suspicious and decided not to continue the investigation. I think the movie contract was dated sometime after the lie detector and the completion of the investigation.
This is all hearsay from second and third parties and was told to me some years ago in general conversations with two DPD detictives concerning the secret papers in Wades safe. The DPD detectives investigation was put in the DPD vault (not the DA's safe) It should still be there.
note: There is a difference between the Vault and the Safe. The Vault is in reference to the DPD and the Safe is located in the DA's offices. Two different places.
I think this story should be easy to verifie. Check and see if Ruby's Club was closed during this time for remodle and if there was a building permit that reflects this. If it was not closed and the detective on the case said it was, then I think this should be looked into further and the detective should be looked into as to his associations. I do not know who this detective was. As I have said this was from second and third parties in an off the record type conversation of a few years ago. Jay Harrison knew about the Vault, but I am not sure about the safe. If he did then that information should be in his files... where ever they are. ???
I have been in touch with the Dallas DA, but I do not expect anything to come of it. I think the DA now feels he made a big mistake in opening this can of worms.
P.S. It was also said The Dallas Sportaturom (sp/), Ed Mc Lamora ? had a picture on the wall in his office which I think plays a part in all this but for the life of me I can't remember just what those details were all about. (something to do with Oswald and Ruby, but I do not think there is much to it... and perhaps I shoul'nt have brought it up. Anybody know anything about that? I do know I talked to the FBI about that picture and reference to it is in their files. AND, I was told in Wades files. again hearsay.