William Plumlee
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Posts posted by William Plumlee
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Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".
I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.
He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.
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All other aspects of the case remain open to honest differences of opinion.
But NOT the "how" of the case.
"How" was JFK killed? By criminal conspirators.
I have to quibble with your choice of words. IMO you have the right answer but the wrong question.
"Who" killed JFK? That's the question you've answered. Criminal conspirators. We just aren't sure who they were and how many make a bunch.
"How" was JFK killed? The correct answer is "with bullets." But we don't know using what guns, how many shooters, from what positions, and with whose help.
"Why" was JFK killed? We aren't sure about that either. All we positively know in detail after 44 years is when and where.
Very good points Ron.... I call that "focusing on the objective". something we seem to loose sight of in this FORUM
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Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
The assassination should have been a Dallas investigation and the Texas Rangers as an independent investigative arm should have been brought in to protect the evidence, at the time. However, LBJ and Hoover would have never allowed this to happen. I think today with this new find they (the Rangers) should be brought into this to protect what evidence is perhaps in those boxes today, as well as any new evidence that has been discovered over the years. And they should work with this DA and reopen this case and let Dallas now do its own investigation... perhaps set up an independent research committee of knowledgeable experts to work with the DA's office and review all the past and present evidence and see where it leads.
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For some reason I could not reply to Chris's question because of "quotes" did not match. ??? This is my reply to that question.
Chris's question:
"... Tosh -
Thanks always for your man-on-the-ground insights w.r.t. how things fit into the Texas political context relative to the times. I very much enjoy your posts on this forum.
Have you considered that while there certainly may be a lot of truth in all this about the racist background of law enforcement in and around Dallas in 1963 (and certainly the current DA emphasized this point during the news conference), that this may have morphed into sort of a straw-man cover story as to why this cache of materials has been concealed for more than four decades?
How can we be sure that there are not materials that would have been "new" or relevant to the Warren Commission in the 1960s or House Select Committee in the 1970s when sensitivities about the racial history being an impediment to Dallas' economic growth would not have been nearly as pronounced?
Who was the DA in the 1990s who violated federal law by not turning these materials over the ARRB? Should his pension be revoked if he is still alive? (Yes.)
If there are relevant documents that could have enhanced our historic understanding, especially given all of the publicity during the ARRB's tenure (didn't they even travel to Dallas for a meeting to try and get all extant documents from public agencies?) it's hard to imagine the DA sitting there and refusing to acknowledge that he had at least 15 boxes of materials based on his subservience to the Dallas Chamber of Commerce and how the release might have imperilled economic development. I would tend to ascribe far more sinister motives to ALL Dallas DAs who knew about these materials. There was some indication that some of Oswald's clothing was included. For all we know, the ability to test it for DNA may be gone if it has been mouldering in a cardboard box in an office safe for 45 years. This is an entirely unacceptable breach of the public trust, imho. ...".
Plumlee reply:
(my speculation)
I feel that there was or is information in those boxes pertaining to JFK that was withheld and the Dallas Police KKK and other profiling reports and information of a negative nature was put into it or vice versa, perhaps to confuse the issue or hide from the FBI and local enforcement. We have late fifties and early sixties Dallas information thrown in with JFK information as well as Rosco White's information all neatly in one place lost for years... kind of like a "Junk Drawer", Remember too, that Dallas was trying to rebuild its image after the assassination and was spending millions on new developments to attract new business to Dallas.
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William: ""On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976. ""
Within "Cover-Up " Shaw, Harris, 1976...same book you refer to, but the title is Cover-Up.....the photos were taken by Jim Murray...
He ran over to that side, and took the two below.......From the south side, approximately ten minutes after the assassination, the photo
you refer to is on page 126, ..none appear
within the book, of the south side during the assassination..
There are none that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..
The two appear below ....the top one below,not showing the transport truck, is the one printed within said book...
FWTW......
B.......
Thanks Bernice; Your photos are taken from the south knoll looking north, sometime after the shooting. The photo I mentioned is taken from the north side ( north knoll) looking south and was taken by Cancellara just a few seconds after the fatal shot.
There was another book by Gary Shaw and Harris published in 1976, title "Conspiracy". and it has the Cancellara (?) photo taken from the north knoll facing toward the south knoll about ten seconds after the shots were fired. (that photo has been posted on the forum many times. Perhaps some can repost that picture, uncroped.
I'll get the IBN and the address of the publisher. I have copy #648 of the first publishing of 3000 copies. When I get back to my office I will updated this post for you with that information. Shaws book was the first publishing of the 'South Knoll" picture which ??shows where Sergio and I were standing. And too, that was the first time I saw the Cancellar photo and I pointed out to Shaw and Bernard Finsterwald Jr., at the time of our meeting in Denver Colorado (1980-81) where we were standing at the time of the shots. Again Thanks for the postings of the other pictures and information. Hang in there...
BERNICE:
You were right on the name of the book being "Cover UP; The Governmenttal Conspiracy To Conceal The Facts About The Public Execution Of John Kennedy". by J. Gary Shaw with Larry R. Harris". It was produced, published and copyrighted by J. Gary Shaw in 1976. P.O. Box722, 105 Poindexter Dr, Cleburne, Texas 76031. (self published)
"... There are none (pictures) that we have of the south side, during the assassination, other than the Zapruder.....???..
..".The picture I made reference to is found on page 126 (top picture) above the Tyler picture on same page. The following page 127 is a full page overhead view of the Plaza. The picture on page 126 was taken by Cancellara on the north side faceing south toward the south knoll. It shows the 'forked tree' that some have said are legs but are really the shadow of the fork tree. We were in the shadow of the fork tree at the time of the shooting. I think page 155 shows Cancellara takeing the south knoll picture.
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Robert Larwon, Colorado Springs, Colorado film maker, circa 1967.
Who was he, where did he come from and what became of him?
BK
Bill:
The federal government shut him down and scared the hell out of him and Wade.
ON ANOTHER NOTE (not directed toward you Bill)
deleted by Plumlee as being not important and off subject. Sorry
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The assumption being made is that the conversation was part of a film script (Countdown to Dallas) that Henry Wade was working on. However, Michael Hogan has pointed out on another thread, that Countdown to Dallas was a proposed documentary on the assassination. If that is the case, the Oswald-Ruby conversation is not part of a script.
Craig Watkins said these documents will be available to researchers. It seems to me that researchers need to take a close look at this contract. Who signed the contract? Did they make documentaries or feature films? Watkins said the contract suggested that Wade would have become a "rich man" if the film was made. Maybe he was offered even more money that stated in the contract not to make the film.
My guess is that the film was to have been falsely characterized as a documentary, that Wade would have served the function of the false authority from which an entirely fabricated "transcript" would draw its bona fides, and that the project went south, as they say, when the notion of producing a limited hang-out was rejected by conspirators on the grounds of lack of need.
(Of course these efficient killers of kings were wise enough to keep this stash intact; a strategically timed future release might reap the benefits of confusing and otherwise misdirecting investigators-to-come.)
Technically, John, the "transcript" was precisely a script component: a fictive construct disguised as a genuine document and inserted into a larger cinematic fabrication.
Of course researchers must take a close look at the contract and all other components of this newly discovered cache of materials. Forensic examinations of documents, films, still photos, etc. -- including the boxes they're in and the safe itself -- must be conducted.
In the meantime, let's do what we can to keep the material off the Sixth Floor.
This waqs posted in another thread today. I think it will also fit in this thread for those who might not have read it in the other:
"... Charles. I think now your right on. I have just been told by a retired detective of the Dallas P.D., as well as a retired Sgt., that some of the photos and even some fingerprints are in that collection. That there are "..MORE than just a movie script in those boxes..". Also, I was told by a different source whose father worked for Wade, that the FBI is now taking a second look ..'and that some in the DoJ are interested in launching their investigation as to WHY this material has been kept secret for so many years...,that other documents from investigative units between Dallas and Ft Worth are also lost somewhere in Ft Worth's files, which connected south Texas crime interest to the case ('Texas Mafia, although not said) "The movie contract was an after thought and used as a distraction". (not sure of just how this was meant) I have been sworn not to use any names at this time, because some of my sources think they will be called to testify, if and when????.
When I have my meetings in Dallas and south Texas, I will ask those questions your interested in. "Dallas officials are thinking about opening their own investigation into this". (if you remember, the FBI took the investigation away from local and it went into the black hole of federal and much of the HARD evidence concerning Texas's involvement in the assassination was with held with the nod of some in Washington DoJ and the WH) I hope you understand I have "ticked" some of the "Old Boys" off recently. Their throwing up their baby food and spitting cruse words.
P.S I just got off the telephone from a Dallas source: "... Bob. if you have anyway of getting information to the right people then try to get them to write to Dallas authorities requesting an investigation into this find, overwhelm them if you can.., before all this is again lost. I feel the time is right. I know some are trying to buy the rights to this information and lock it up again..".
Sounds like a good idea to me. Perhaps that would block any thing going to a museum or being purged or sorted out.
On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976.
This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Today, 09:56 AM
I just received a question from Dallas. "Why do you think the material recently found in a vault in Dallas was kept secret for all these years?".
My reply: "Well it was not because of the JFK matter or a cover up in that direction, in my opinion. The Dallas Police Department at one time from the late thirties until the early sixties had over half of its force connected or associated in some way with the Klu Klux Klan (KKK), minutemen, etc, and within those boxes is a lot of information that shows the attitude of Dallas P.D. toward the Blacks of Dallas.
To read those pages and reports today is very alarming and sickening. A black man was hung in Oak Cliff in 1948 while the DPD watched from a distance. " Let the little n bastard rot". It was said. On another example at a place near Bauchman Lake near Northwest Highway at Love Field and Lemmon Ave a young white lady was found raped and murdered and left under the bridge. She had been dating a Dallas Police office at the time. Within 48 hours there was an arrest, a black man, he was tried for the crime, convicted, in less than three days and executed at Huntsville Texas within the following year. Texas justice of the time. Thats the reason those boxes were with held by the many many people that knew about what was in that vauld and safe. There is some information on background concerning Roscoe White, that was not turned over to the FBI in 1988. Information concerning JFK is in those boxes, but the real reason was as I have stated. To release those documents and notes would be bad for Dallas and its Growth image.
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Good points all. Ruth Paine's "He keeps it in the garage." - has got to be one of the fishiest things said on a very fishy day. Also, no doubt the rifle got into TSBD that day (or earlier) but how? Not with LHO.
Frank,
There's a story-within-a-story here, I think.
Professor Evica's And We Are All Mortal was published 30 years ago. His definitive and to-date unchallenged treatment of CE 139 has been all but lost to the majority of serious, honorably intentioned researchers to the degree that a Gary Mack can state, as if it is a matter of established and unchallenged historical record, that Lee Harvey Oswald owned the alleged murder weapon in the JFK case.
John Kelin's recently published masterpiece, Praise from a Future Generation, would return our focus to the so-called first generation of Warren Commission critics and their discoveries -- not to mention the collective courage of their conviction that conspiracy in the JFK case is established historical truth.
Professor Evica, who emerged somewhere between the first and second generations of WC critics, cites Sylvia Meagher in his brilliant demolition of the Oswald-owned-the-gun "certainty."
In other words: The work has been done.
It is up to us to keep it in the public eye.
I respectfully urge you to contact John Kelin and make his work better known.
Best,
Charles
Thanks Charles; especially for the book titles; some of the stuff written long ago is barely worth it, what with what has come after. But you point out what is still valid and I will persue those books.
I work in main stream media (at KCBS and KCAL in L. A.) and am constantly moving to get the JFK/RFK stuff in the news here. We did OK with the cache of goodies recently found in Dallas; I say (just) OK as far as one reporter who put together a competent package, and another reporter who got an interview with Bugliosi - and he didn't even break a sweat to fob her off with some of the lamest BS ever repeated about the case. I.E. - "...the charismatic leader brought down by the commie loser is the basis of conspiracy theory...". Actually it's facts, I had to remind her, but your basic clueless TV reporter doesn't make much of a distinction between conspiracy in JFK and Elvis sightings. I am working on getting some CBS coverage of the RFK acoustic report taking place tomorrow 2/21/08.
I'll capitalize the next part not because I'm yelling, but because I want people on the board to notice.
IF ANY OF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE OR DEVELOPMENT YOU FEEL NEEDS TO BE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA GIVE ME A SHOUT HERE ON THE BOARD. I'll get a direct line to our asssignment desk in the near future, as well as some friends at CNN.
Anyhow thanks for your help, Charles, and by the by, has there been a comprehensive book written about Ruth Paine and her role? I flipped through "Mrs. Paine's Garage" once upon a time but can't remember much of it. I've heard it's the worst book on the Assassination. All the best.
Frank:
Keep in mind not everything about JFK is found in books. The old thought of.., "if its not found in a book then it didn't happen" or "it must be true, because I saw it on TV"", mentality is not the mark of good research. Some of the books concerning the assassination quoted as factual are based upon very sloppy research, personal opinions, egos and special interest editors. Some of us have never wanted to be found in some of the books that are in print. Some of us have in NO WAY wanted to be in them or in anyway associated with them. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it did not. That's the price some of us pay when you get involved in JFK. Use and abuse and if you don't agree with the Experts and their theories then they we will just discredit you, say nasty things about you, and continue to sell their books. Shame, shame... There are some out there that know what I mean. This BUDS for you.
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Wade Denies Any Movie Offer Made or Accepted
Producer Says Curry, Marina Have Agreed to Play in Assassination Film
By David Morgan
Dist. Atty. Henry Wade Hotly denied reports Thursday that he would receive
$20,000 for his participation in making "Countdown In Dallas," a movie based on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
Wade blamed the film's producer, Robert Larson, for the reports.
"There's been no contract, no offers or anything. He's just here trying to raise money."
A story originating from the Los Angeles Times said earlier this week that Wade, Marina Oswald Porter and former Police Chief Jesse Curry would receive substantial sums for personal appearances in the movie, which Larson has been filming in Dallas.
Larson told The News Thursday that the Los Angeles Times reporter who was allowed to read the script found documents that indicated what participants might receive if the movie were completed.
"That's $20,000," Larson said, "is the problem. It was allocated, but that doesn't mean I offered Henry Wade $20,000."
Larson explained that the amount was only tentative, "like a hit record."
"If it (the movie) is successful, then we'll consider it. You more or less have to establish figures for targets."
Larson said he plans to continue with the movie, which already has cost him $50,000, despite the controversary, and said he's already received verbal agreements by Curry and Mrs. Porter that they are willing to play their parts. Mrs. Porte, he said, will have a major role.
Wade howeverr, said he'll have no more part of it.
"It's a thing to try to stir up publicity to try to get some people to put up money," Wade charge. "I mean to have nothing whatever to do with it. I'm fed up with it."
Wade said a firm which he is a partner, Flag-Star, Inc. was formed to 'work out some documentary sort of thing," hen added: "But as far as I'm concerned, it's through."
Larson said the Los Angeles story was "premature" and that the "onslaught of reporters discourged and embarrassed" Wade.
Larson said he is slightly discourged that City Mgr. Scott McDonald has refused to allow him to film policemen or the Municpal Building where Oswald was killed by Jack Ruby.
"However, he never got to read the script," Larson argued. "I don't think we would be doing the police department any harm."
Larson said he needed authentic backdrops for scenes in his filming.
"If I don't get the cooperation of Mr. Wade and the City of Dallas it will be impossible to make the picture. I wanted to be authentic and I don't think it would be the kind of picture you'd go on a Hollywood stage and produce."
Larson said that his company, Robert Larson Productions, Ltd. of Colorado Springs, Colo., has a shooting schedule of 32 days and a release date 10 months away.
"All I'm doing is trying to present a fair story of the assassination," he said.
Bill; I just received a call from a young researcher who thinks this is an ongoing project of today and wanted to know what I thought about it. Perhaps in the articles you reference you could put the complete date and year of the articles as well as its sources, etc Dallas Morning News....Times Hearld or others. The time frame of this is very important for a new gereration of research, as well as where the sources can be found... Thanks.
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Kathleen Collins Posted Feb 17 2008, 08:42 PM
Moderators: Please get the Search engine in this software fixed. I can never find anything, just the latest posts of that day.
Kathy
No can do.
Speaking of which how on earth would I go about finding a pic that Tim Carroll posted of the Plaza, showing the fence, probably after his trip to Dallas in 04. The search engines ...ah...well you know.
thanks
Dawn
Yes Dawn, I too am trying to find the raised Railroad bed that Gary said was not there. Also there was posted a picture of a train and box cars crossing over the underpass soon after the assassination. This picture would show the hight of the raise base of the railroad bed and ties from the baseline foundation of the underpass. There was a photo of an image on the west side of the underpass and it was said if that was a person he would have to have been at least seven feet tall.... hence the reason for the thread on the raised railroad tracks. This was about a year or two before Tim died, I think. (from July of 2007)
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As I understand Marita Lorenz claims, it was Hemming who took her back from Dallas to Miami by plane in the late evening of
21.11.1963. Thus Hemming was hardley at DP noon the next day.
Marita is a most unreliable source, IMO. Of late she has been kept close to those who would paint false portraits of events, as well. So many of these 'stories' by one operative are to cover-up the reality for another. More smoke and mirrors, I fear. I met with Marita a few years ago and was not impressed with her veracity. She is an interesting figure and person who was at least peripheral to some important events and persons - but that doesn't qualify her for a reliable source.
Peter. GPH was NOT in Dallas that day. I know we have been over this before. GPH was a convicted felon and did not have any or had any United States Government security clearances even before or after the event. He was never officially or otherwise associated with any CIA or governmernt sanctioned operations of the time or after. I pass no judgements on deadmen. I do honor the man for his early service to SOME of the Cubans and their cause. He fought honorable to some degree, for their democratic cause as a SOF. As I have said many times I do respect that.... But not much after that. I will let him rest in peace... He did earn that.
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The assumption being made is that the conversation was part of a film script (Countdown to Dallas) that Henry Wade was working on. However, Michael Hogan has pointed out on another thread, that Countdown to Dallas was a proposed documentary on the assassination. If that is the case, the Oswald-Ruby conversation is not part of a script.
Craig Watkins said these documents will be available to researchers. It seems to me that researchers need to take a close look at this contract. Who signed the contract? Did they make documentaries or feature films? Watkins said the contract suggested that Wade would have become a "rich man" if the film was made. Maybe he was offered even more money that stated in the contract not to make the film.
My guess is that the film was to have been falsely characterized as a documentary, that Wade would have served the function of the false authority from which an entirely fabricated "transcript" would draw its bona fides, and that the project went south, as they say, when the notion of producing a limited hang-out was rejected by conspirators on the grounds of lack of need.
(Of course these efficient killers of kings were wise enough to keep this stash intact; a strategically timed future release might reap the benefits of confusing and otherwise misdirecting investigators-to-come.)
Technically, John, the "transcript" was precisely a script component: a fictive construct disguised as a genuine document and inserted into a larger cinematic fabrication.
Of course researchers must take a close look at the contract and all other components of this newly discovered cache of materials. Forensic examinations of documents, films, still photos, etc. -- including the boxes they're in and the safe itself -- must be conducted.
In the meantime, let's do what we can to keep the material off the Sixth Floor.
This waqs posted in another thread today. I think it will also fit in this thread for those who might not have read it in the other:
"... Charles. I think now your right on. I have just been told by a retired detective of the Dallas P.D., as well as a retired Sgt., that some of the photos and even some fingerprints are in that collection. That there are "..MORE than just a movie script in those boxes..". Also, I was told by a different source whose father worked for Wade, that the FBI is now taking a second look ..'and that some in the DoJ are interested in launching their investigation as to WHY this material has been kept secret for so many years...,that other documents from investigative units between Dallas and Ft Worth are also lost somewhere in Ft Worth's files, which connected south Texas crime interest to the case ('Texas Mafia, although not said) "The movie contract was an after thought and used as a distraction". (not sure of just how this was meant) I have been sworn not to use any names at this time, because some of my sources think they will be called to testify, if and when????.
When I have my meetings in Dallas and south Texas, I will ask those questions your interested in. "Dallas officials are thinking about opening their own investigation into this". (if you remember, the FBI took the investigation away from local and it went into the black hole of federal and much of the HARD evidence concerning Texas's involvement in the assassination was with held with the nod of some in Washington DoJ and the WH) I hope you understand I have "ticked" some of the "Old Boys" off recently. Their throwing up their baby food and spitting cruse words.
P.S I just got off the telephone from a Dallas source: "... Bob. if you have anyway of getting information to the right people then try to get them to write to Dallas authorities requesting an investigation into this find, overwhelm them if you can.., before all this is again lost. I feel the time is right. I know some are trying to buy the rights to this information and lock it up again..".
Sounds like a good idea to me. Perhaps that would block any thing going to a museum or being purged or sorted out.
On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976.
This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Today, 09:56 AM
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Bumped from the Dallas County DA's office finds cache of JFK memorabilia thread:
QUOTE(John Simkin @ Feb 20 2008, 01:47 AM)
The assumption being made is that the conversation was part of a film script (Countdown to Dallas) that Henry Wade was working on. However, Michael Hogan has pointed out on another thread, that Countdown to Dallas was a proposed documentary on the assassination. If that is the case, the Oswald-Ruby conversation is not part of a script.
Craig Watkins said these documents will be available to researchers. It seems to me that researchers need to take a close look at this contract. Who signed the contract? Did they make documentaries or feature films? Watkins said the contract suggested that Wade would have become a "rich man" if the film was made. Maybe he was offered even more money that stated in the contract not to make the film.
***
My guess is that the film was to have been falsely characterized as a documentary, that Wade would have served the function of the false authority from which an entirely fabricated "transcript" would draw its bona fides, and that the project went south, as they say, when the notion of producing a limited hang-out was rejected by conspirators on the grounds of lack of need.
(Of course these efficient killers of kings were wise enough to keep this stash intact; a strategically timed future release might reap the benefits of confusing and otherwise misdirecting investigators-to-come.)
Technically, John, the "transcript" was precisely a script component: a fictive construct disguised as a genuine document and inserted into a larger cinematic fabrication.
Of course researchers must take a close look at the contract and all other components of this newly discovered cache of materials. Forensic examinations of documents, films, still photos, etc. -- including the boxes they're in and the safe itself -- must be conducted.
In the meantime, let's do what we can to keep the material off the Sixth Floor.
Charles. I think now your right on. I have just been told by a retired detective of the Dallas P.D., as well as a retired Sgt., that some of the photos and even some fingerprints are in that collection. That there are "..MORE than just a movie script in those boxes..". Also, I was told by a different source whose father worked for Wade, that the FBI is now taking a second look ..'and that some in the DoJ are interested in launching their investigation as to WHY this material has been kept secret for so many years...,that other documents from investigative units between Dallas and Ft Worth are also lost somewhere in Ft Worth's files, which connected south Texas crime interest to the case ('Texas Mafia, although not said) "The movie contract was an after thought and used as a distraction". (not sure of just how this was meant) I have been sworn not to use any names at this time, because some of my sources think they will be called to testify, if and when????.
When I have my meetings in Dallas and south Texas, I will ask those questions your interested in. "Dallas officials are thinking about opening their own investigation into this". (if you remember, the FBI took the investigation away from local and it went into the black hole of federal and much of the HARD evidence concerning Texas's involvement in the assassination was with held with the nod of some in Washington DoJ and the WH) I hope you understand I have "ticked" some of the "Old Boys" off recently. Their throwing up their baby food and spitting cruse words.
P.S I just got off the telephone from a Dallas source: "... Bob. if you have anyway of getting information to the right people then try to get them to write to Dallas authorities requesting an investigation into this find, overwhelm them if you can.., before all this is again lost. I feel the time is right. I know some are trying to buy the rights to this information and lock it up again..".
Sounds like a good idea to me. Perhaps that would block any thing going to a museum or being purged or sorted out.
On another note. I asked about photos of the south plaza, an area I am very much interested in, and I was told there were pictures of the south knoll taken at the time of the shooting. Who took those pictures I do not know, but I was told that Life Magazine had one of them after they bought it from one of the people who took it... Perhaps Peter Lemkin can fill in at this point. I think he knows how this photo came into being. This particular photo also can be found in Gary Shaw and Harris's book "Conspiracy", published in 1976.
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"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald."
Thus Gary Mack gives away his game.
Mr. Mack spoke those words, as I type this, some three minutes ago, at the end of the Monday, February 18 edition of "Countdown" on MSNBC.
Once more for emphasis:
"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald." -- Gary Mack
Contrast this with the truth:
No hard evidence whatsoever leads to Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin -- lone or otherwise -- of John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
I reiterate: Anyone with reasonable access to the evidence in the JFK case who does not conclude conspiracy is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime.
Without any room for equvication, Mr. Mack's access to said evidence is reasonable in the extreme.
Let there be no doubt, from this day and time, about whose side Mr. Mack is on.
Charles:
Gary has his had in the monkey trap and can't let go of the peanuts even if he wanted to. He does not know if he should sling sand or dig dirt. I think he is a good man and does mean well... BUT he cannot pull back at this late date even if new evidence comes forward or it is proved beyond doubt that Oswald never shot anyone.... to much to loose including his established reputation, not to mention his and Dallas's investment in that thing he has up there. I see the thing up there as a clean up and a clearing house where he knows it or not. I remember when he used to be very objective. But objectivity does not pay the rent or please Dallas's special interest... I feel sorry for him and others who have walked or put their hands into that trap.
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Duplicate post... sorry... its getting late and I have been at this all day.
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From The Dallas Morning News:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...by.3bde49f.html
This was posted earlier today and soon disappeared. You find it and the time it was posted when you look at the Plumlee postings for the day. I thought it might help.. But, ??? If I have made a mistake, then I apoligise. Perhaps I post it in another thread topic that I can't remember or find. However, it is fitting for this thread. Not sure about the other one if its there. Old men do things like that.... just ask Jack White and a few others. Ha.
Posted on: Today, 02:43 PM[/b]
I was asked some years ago by a Dallas Police Sgt. if I knew anything about this. It has been known about for a number of years. A well known Texas researcher also had information on this before he died. I believe it was first found at about the time of the famous fingerprint and palm print, one of which was found hidden behind some file boxes in the Dallas PD (or Courthouse) basement. Again, that print was not the one referenced in the recent book. (can't recall the name of the book)
When Oliver Stone was going to do a movie on JFK the transcript in question was offered to him for a rather large fee. It was turned down. I was even told that the Dallas FBI had reviewed the transcript and said it was nothing but a script for a movie. This is old stuff and it was held back so as NOT to contaminate the record or perhaps any ongoing investigations by the Dallas PD. There was one pending at the time. The FBI did not even take it for testing. That is how much they thought about it. It was put back into the vault and forgot about. The section quoted as Ruby and Oswald was something H. Wade had mention to friends and potential publishers as he was developing the script. The Dallas PD talked many times to the relatives about this find. And I think they supported the conclutions. Although, I do not speak for them. (some of this is hear say and from second parties discussed some years ago)
There is more to come on this and another find about three or four years ago, involving a fingerprint that matched Wallaces (not the one mentioned in the recent book) This print and background information was found after a water leak in a basement and a remodeling job at the DPD (Ithink I got this right on where it was found) This find is still being investigated by DPD, I have been told this by a very reliable source in the Dallas PD just before he retired. If that (the new fingerprint) is prove true then that will turn some heads in a different direction in reference to the JFK assassination. Anyway, I am sure some will run with this new find of today and try to make some bucks ($) off it. Perhaps we will see it on EBAY soon.
Note: At one point in the Dallas investigation, it was thought that Ruby killed Oswald for the reason found in the transcript and the dialouge was written later to support that theory and sell the movie. (There was nothing sinister on Wades part. He just thought it would make a good movie and because of his connection to the case would be an easy sale... my speculation )
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Plumlee Reply to Dawn:
Danger by intimidation. Its not healthy to be to secretive now days in reference to Texas. The flock of turkey shooters are getting jumpy and some of them are a little near sighted with age and might hit the wrong target or go to sleep before they can pull the trigger. However, they do have young friends sworn to uphold the honor of Texas and LBJ and his old gang. I know I have recently pissed some of them off and that pisses me off that they are pissed off at me. And we are at a stalemate at the moment, but that could change very quickly. We will see how that works out very soon.
As I have told you (and Jay knew this also) I do have a solid ace in the hole and if pushed I will raise the pot and play it on the table when called.. I am getting old and I am getting tired, but I have my own mission and its going in the right direction. I use this forum as a spring board to communicate various things of interest to them. The Forum does not care what I have to say, did , or think.., but THEY in south Texas (your neck of the woods) sure as hell do.
Its all there for those who will get their heads out of the sand and get with the program and just look at the information contained within various postings over the years... Time is short... and this is Not a game for me nor an EGO trip.
I have to be discredited because some researchers have spent their whole life chasing disinformation and a false story and cannot reverse themselves at this late date because they would become tarnished and their books would not sell anymore. That day is coming fast. They see themselves as the experts on this subject and if you do not play their little game of hide and seek the information and stroke their egos, then you cannot play in their little sand box. Any information obtained from an outside source passed to their self established groupies goes into the Black Hole. They see it as a threat to their credibility, or to their manhood... they are Gods unto themselves as they look in the mirror and smile.
I am not bitter, just disappointed. Its time for us old dogs who have been pissing in the tall grass for years to move over and have faith in a new generation of young dogs that has not become contaminated by false leads and disinformation regardless of the source. We need to teach them how to piss in the tall grass. I think they want that. I have faith in this generation and their work. God knows they have to climb a high mountain to get beyond what has been established as FACTS by various special interest from Texas and Washington DC., and the US Government and its alphabet agencies.
So now back to work and thanks for letting me, rant, spit, and drool.
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Channel 11 archived the news conference in their video library.
You should be able to pick it up here:
http://cbs11tv.com/video/?cid=7
Steve Thomas
I was asked some years ago by a Dallas Police Sgt. if I knew anything about this. It has been known about for a number of years. A well known Texas researcher also had information on this before he died. I believe it was first found at about the time of the famous fingerprint and palm print, one of which was found hidden behind some file boxes in the Dallas PD (or Courthouse) basement. Again, that print was not the one referenced in the recent book. (can't recall the name of the book)
When Oliver Stone was going to do a movie on JFK the transcript in question was offered to him for a rather large fee. It was turned down. I was even told that the Dallas FBI had reviewed the transcript and said it was nothing but a script for a movie. This is old stuff and it was held back so as NOT to contaminate the record or perhaps any ongoing investigations by the Dallas PD. There was one pending at the time. The FBI did not even take it for testing. That is how much they thought about it. It was put back into the vault and forgot about. The section quoted as Ruby and Oswald was something H. Wade had mention to friends and potential publishers as he was developing the script. The Dallas PD talked many times to the relatives about this find. And I think they supported the conclutions. Although, I do not speak for them. (some of this is hear say and from second parties discussed some years ago)
There is more to come on this and another find about three or four years ago, involving a fingerprint that matched Wallaces (not the one mentioned in the recent book) This print and background information was found after a water leak in a basement and a remodeling job at the DPD (Ithink I got this right on where it was found) This find is still being investigated by DPD, I have been told this by a very reliable source in the Dallas PD just before he retired. If that (the new fingerprint) is prove true then that will turn some heads in a different direction in reference to the JFK assassination. Anyway, I am sure some will run with this new find of today and try to make some bucks ($) off it. Perhaps we will see it on EBAY soon.
Note: At one point in the Dallas investigation, it was thought that Ruby killed Oswald for the reason found in the transcript and the dialouge was written later to support that theory and sell the movie. (There was nothing sinister on Wades part. He just thought it would make a good movie and because of his connection to the case would be an easy sale... my speculation )
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Nobody lied, Professor Fetzer. You have simply chosen to interpret certain witnesses’ words to suit your purposes.
You quoted Bobby Hargis’ remarks as follows: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” (Hargis stopped his cycle in Dealey Plaza. When Chaney slowed and then sped up to catch the motorcade it would have seemed to Hargis that he “immediately went forward.” This report from Hargis came from a Daily News article.)
Or Chief Jesse Curry, whom you quoted but cherry picked.... here is the full quote: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at this time, and I didn’t know a – I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’” (12H28)
Or SS Agent Winston Lawson, whom you also cherry-picked.... here is a fuller quote from a report he typed out: “As the lead car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President’s car and our lead car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. A motorcycle officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot.” (17H632)
Or a fuller quote from SS Agent Forrest Sorrels: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.” And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’” 7H345)
None of these witnesses lied. They found themselves in the midst of a chaotic set of events and recalled the sequence and timing of things as best they could. You cherry-picked their remarks for your own purposes.
But now the real question. What do you think happened, Professor?
Against the film evidence of the Zapruder, Muchmore and Nix films, do you believe that Chaney stayed right on the tail of limousine into the underpass? Since the Altgens photo doesn’t show this, was the Altgens photo faked up? And then what happened? Both the Daniel film and the Mel McIntire still photo show the limousine overtaking the pilot car with Chaney hundreds of feet behind. Did Chaney zoom up to pass the limousine and then turn in the other direction to meet the pilot car? Or are the Daniel film and the McIntire photo faked up also?
How about a couple of reasonably frank answers. After all, you started this.
To All of the above postings. What a total waste of Good brains.... brains replaced by inflated egos. No wonder nothing concrete ever gets done in reference to JFK and what really happened that day.... of course that is my opinion and I think as you review the many many threads on this you will see what I mean... Get with it gentelmen. Look around. The birds are flying away and you can't see them. Your locked in your own egos. What a shame.
Remember: X is an unknown and a Spurt is a drip under pressure. We seem to have a lot of experts on this forum.
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Tosh:
I have a question for him. It relates to a friend of Jay's Stephen Pegues. Stephen was writing a book about the TX. Mafia . He and Jay were collaborating. On the 3rd of Sept of 97 Pegues had tacked down (located by Jay) the daughter of Malcolm Wallace ( (Alice Meredith Nix) and she agreed to be interviewed about her father. Jay and Peagues were to meet in Dallas the following day. Jay was there but Stephen Peagues never showed. Jay learned that night that Peagues had suffered a fatal heart attack. His manuscript on the TX Mafia was missing from his belongings. It was Jay's dying wish- one of them- to get this story out. Walt Brown told me Estes had obtained the rights to this story. Last year when Floyd Stephens died of a heart attack (while investigating the Tx Mafia) Floyd's wife asked me to contact Estes and tell him. I obtained his mailing address and wrote to him. He called me immediately and we had a lovely chat. I asked him about the Peagues matter and he told me that yes he had aquired the rights to this. Would you ask him if this is still going forward. Thanks muchly, I seem to have misplaced my notes from that phone call and am just going by memory here.
Thanks Tosh.
Dawn
Yes Dawn, I will do that. Also when I am down that way I will drop in to see you. I'm going to see Leslie also.
To some degree I do know something about that manuscript (from Jay) and the way I read it the work is still in progress... something about libility and waiting until Lady Bird past on... However, I will ask him... Its a good valid question. I have been warned indirect not to go there and that warning came from Texas officials. and Thanks for the info and reply... until then keep cool and be safe... Tosh
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Perhaps someday soon this JFK investigation will go where it should have gone long ago, toward LBJ and his gang of assassins.. Texas and its background leading to the assassination is an important chapter in reference to what really happened in Dallas that day...In time I feel it will all fit into place and the real story about the "Texas Connection" to the assassination of President Kennedy will come forth. I hope it happens in my life time.... but its not suppose to. Not until all the players oare dead and gone... there are not to many Texas players left today.
Tosh,
Have you read Estes's book Billie Sol Estes: A Texas Legend? There's quite a bit in it about the assassination, but below is how Estes sums it up in one simple and remarkable paragraph (pages 141-142). I'd be interested to know how this summary strikes you, knowing Texas as you did.
"The real story behind the assassination is just plain simple. Nothing elaborate, just a country turkey shoot with some country boys doing the shooting. The fact is President Kennedy did not understand Texas and its business ways. Even today, if I want to make sure something happens, I invite the people to meet me in my county. If things do not work out, I have them arrested. Pretty soon, they see things my way. Kennedy should never have come to Texas. He knew a majority of Texans hated him but he just did not realize the danger. He was a member of the intellectual elite and pretentious. He did not realize that LBJ and his friends intended to kill him."
Ron; I have not read his book. However, the above is right on in my opinion. When I first heard that Kennedy was going to Texas (I was told he was going to Austin Texas then Dallas) Being raised in Texas, I thought then it was a bad bad mistake.
Billy Sol said it the only way an insider Texan could. That was the overall mood for the special interest that ran Texas politics of the time. Kennedy was warned many times to stay out of Texas. He was even told he was walking into a real Texas 'Turkey Shoot", if he went down there . "The Texas Good Old Boys were waiting for him", he was told. He laughed it off. Kennedy did not understand Texans and Texas special interest politics. That is what got him assassinated. I too, have said the assassination was a simple case of the Good Old Boys getting together for a day of target practice. I was told I was "insensitive". My reply was, " You don't understand Texas politics". Billy Sol, and I are on the same page in reference to who and why the assassination of President Kennedy was launched. However, I did not hate Kennedy like some down there. It was a sad day for me in more ways than one. I liked the man and his ideas.
This thread started out about President Kennedy's love child and bent toward Johnson killing Kennedy. I want to bend it in another direction, at least for one Reply.
To Tosh: You are very learned about Texas politics and the elite families. Clint Murchison III's ex wife died mysteriously a few years ago at age 47. Her body and face were very bruised. The autopsy surgeon claimed she died from food poisoning. Her sister told the press, "She fell. That's all." The woman was taking psychiatric pills.
I think she was murdered. The coroner was surprised how diseased her liver was for her age. She died from listeria, a bacteria I think. It's possible she was poisoned over a period of time. Maybe she was given a bad mushroom, which destroys the liver immediately. The Coroner kept quiet. The case was closed. Tosh, when I look in Texas newspapaers and magazines, I can barely find anything out about her. Just that she was a socialite and worked for children's charities.
Tosh, what is your opinion on Murchison III ? Is he a chip off the old shoulder?
Kathy
Kathy: Following are my thoughts and matters talked about over the years by my family which left these impressions on me. They are incorporated here only to support my answer.
NO. He has tried to escape that past and become a man of his own making, however some past family matters cannot be escaped. In some cases he has tried to buy his way around and away from those attachments by helping unfortunate people and the arts. Not saying he is 100%, but on hindsight none of us are 100% Right? If your from Texas in the 30, 40's, and 50's and do business in Texas there would be no way you could stay 100% clean and stay in Texas business. The children of that era inherited that legacy.
During those years before and after her death the Texas media was controlled as to information about Texas's elite. Most everything had to be cleared if it concerned anything to do with the early Texas"CLAN" or Texas insider politics. The Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Herald as well as the Dallas P.D., was among those local newspapers and law enforcement under that control. If you check who the editors and who their connections to Texas politics were I think you will see what I mean.
We lived not far from the Murchison Sr in Highland Park, on Lexington Ave near Harvard Ave south (?) of SMU and University Park, Gordom Mc Clindon ( the owner of the old KLIF radio station) was also friends of the Murchison and of my family. My step-father (Clearence Morgan as well as my father worked construction for the Murchison's as they developed various properties around Dallas.
Also, Murchison Sr., knew Billy Sol Estes and the Texas Oil people (Zapada Oil of Midland for one, I think) Within all that the Murchison got caught up in the JFK matter because of their past dealings with the TEXAS GOOD OLD BOYS and LBJ's gang and the murders of the time. There was a time you could not do business unless you went through them. LBJ had become a Senator about that time I think.
Back to her death. The Murchison knew that her death would lead into all those past dealings with some who could have been connected to the assassination of JFK. To some degree she was an ‘Out of control woman' when she was pissed, I was told. I was also told she was going to tell all she thought she knew about LBJ, which was really nothing but hear say at the time. She was warned by the family to drop it or bad things could happen to her and the family if she brought attention to the Murchison family. Again I was told Murchison III did fear for her life if he could not bring her under control. She had called The Dallas Morning News many times claiming "inside information" I was told this was when she had been drinking (not sure about that could have been Texas gossip of the time) Shortly after a few of those phone calls she was dead. The family wanted it kept quiet because they knew that all types of speculations as to LBJ and JFK past would be "splashed", in headlines across the nation, involving the Murchison family in the arms lengths dealings with LBJ, Estes, the Clan, Dallas P.D. and the Texas Mafia as it was then being called.
The Media worked with the family. If she was murdered, then I believe Clint Murchison III had nothing to do with it. It would have been beyond his control. I believe the family wanted to distance themselves from all that by down playing her death. She was a very (physical) as well as mental, sick woman..., but a very good woman as long as she remained on medication..
I know this is long, but its hard to give a simple YES or NO on some of these matters:
On another matter. I have a meeting scheduled meeting with Billy Sol. Do you have any questions you would like me to asked him?
I'm sorry I deverted the thread and now we can go back to the dirt.
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To my knowledge he never used them or actually had any need of them.
His first murder, Kinser, was done with little attempt at all to hide his true identity.
His alleged follow-on murders for Johnson were more in the nature of hits e.g. find the victim
off by themselves and just kill them. Nothing really covert.
And, if you accept the Loy Factor story, Mac even used his true last name with Factor, who
knew him as Wallace.
-- Larry
Does anyone know if he ever used any aliases?Thanks
Have you contacted Larry Hancock? He has carried out detailed research into Wallace.
There was no reason for those boys to cover their tracks or use alaises. The golf course hit (one of many of the time) was just a walk up, by one person and POW. It had nothing to do with Texas politics. It was all about a girl friend I was told. Even if they, or he, were caught with the smoking gun in hard and if they were Texas connected they had a "get out of jail free" card. There were a whole flock of good old Texas boys that would do the dirty work for the special interest of the power elite of Texas. Those boys paved the way for LBJ into State and National Politics. It was a tight organization and not many escaped their wrath. JFK found that out the hard way. Texas to this day has more power in national and state politices than most Americans can comprehend. And It's not over yet. The way to Washington DC is via Texas. If you do not play their game, they will just kill you and be done with it; and go home and have dinner.
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Perhaps someday soon this JFK investigation will go where it should have gone long ago, toward LBJ and his gang of assassins.. Texas and its background leading to the assassination is an important chapter in reference to what really happened in Dallas that day...In time I feel it will all fit into place and the real story about the "Texas Connection" to the assassination of President Kennedy will come forth. I hope it happens in my life time.... but its not suppose to. Not until all the players oare dead and gone... there are not to many Texas players left today.
Tosh,
Have you read Estes's book Billie Sol Estes: A Texas Legend? There's quite a bit in it about the assassination, but below is how Estes sums it up in one simple and remarkable paragraph (pages 141-142). I'd be interested to know how this summary strikes you, knowing Texas as you did.
"The real story behind the assassination is just plain simple. Nothing elaborate, just a country turkey shoot with some country boys doing the shooting. The fact is President Kennedy did not understand Texas and its business ways. Even today, if I want to make sure something happens, I invite the people to meet me in my county. If things do not work out, I have them arrested. Pretty soon, they see things my way. Kennedy should never have come to Texas. He knew a majority of Texans hated him but he just did not realize the danger. He was a member of the intellectual elite and pretentious. He did not realize that LBJ and his friends intended to kill him."
Ron; I have not read his book. However, the above is right on in my opinion. When I first heard that Kennedy was going to Texas (I was told he was going to Austin Texas then Dallas) Being raised in Texas, I thought then it was a bad bad mistake.
Billy Sol said it the only way an insider Texan could. That was the overall mood for the special interest that ran Texas politics of the time. Kennedy was warned many times to stay out of Texas. He was even told he was walking into a real Texas 'Turkey Shoot", if he went down there . "The Texas Good Old Boys were waiting for him", he was told. He laughed it off. Kennedy did not understand Texans and Texas special interest politics. That is what got him assassinated. I too, have said the assassination was a simple case of the Good Old Boys getting together for a day of target practice. I was told I was "insensitive". My reply was, " You don't understand Texas politics". Billy Sol, and I are on the same page in reference to who and why the assassination of President Kennedy was launched. However, I did not hate Kennedy like some down there. It was a sad day for me in more ways than one. I liked the man and his ideas.
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FROM AN OLD POST. OCT. 28, 2004 BROUGHT FORWARD IN REFERENCE TO RECENT QUESTIONS ASK ABOUT THE SOUTH KNOLL
Then it was said that this alleged assassin had maybe fired from atop the South end of the overpass. The problem I found with that was there were no witnesses that heard such a shot. Furthermore, there was a News truck in the parking lot and the newsman never saw anyone on the South knoll side of the underpass, nor did he hear any shots from there. JC Price atop of the now Dallas Morning News building had a birds eye view of the plaza and he never heard a shot from the South side of the overpass, nor mentioned seeing anyone there. James Tague is another witness who only heard gunfire from the North side of Elm Street. So I have not spent a great deal more time on the South Knoll shooter claim because it is too far fetched in my view.This is the first I've ever heard of a newsman and news truck in the South Knoll parking lot. As for earwitnesses, Tosh has a funny story about setting off a firecracker on the South Knoll during a subsequent visit and having everyone in the Plaza turn toward the North Knoll. He says the police were there rather quickly. I think Al Carrier's stuff is very good about the advantageous LOS from the front on the South Knoll, as well as how it could explain the lack of a left side head blowout. As I have said previously, Al gave me permission to post his stuff here, but I just don't feel comfortable doing that. When I'm there in a few weeks, I will be taking many pictures and hope that my study of the classic gunman LOS is not thwarted by an overgrown pyracantha [sp?] tree. I want to again emphasize that I have no certainty about this issue, and that maybe walking the walk rather than just talking the talk will convince me on a personal level that I have resisted. I just don't know. I'm going on the same weekend as the conferences but not attending any except possibly the COPA Friday night, so I hope you can appreciate what an effort that is to make in order to have the sun and conditions be optimal for the understanding of light and shadow.
Tim
Plumlee reply:
"... I have read most of the material that has been presented on this thread about the lights and shadows, a person there.., a person not there..., why he was there and why he was not there. All seem to present good points in their arguments. But all is just wild speculations as far as I am concern. Some have become so entrenched in their work that this subject matter has become their main focal point and they have become blinded to others valid points or none valid points and miss the whole picture. JFK was EXECUTED, in public. There is no simple answer. And lights and shadows, people there, and people not there brings us no closer to the truth, or identification, of who shot him, or how many additional shooters there were, if any.
Now I will throw my spuculations into the fray.
(1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.
Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.
(2) I do not believe that a professional snipper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.
(3) I was there. I helped Sergio spot for that type of stuff. And there were others, from our team, who were at the North Knoll. I have been told by the expert researchers, over the years, that they (my team) were part of the assassination team and that I was also. B.S. That too, is speculation or their part and not a proven fact. I have never said that I know all the facts behind the assassination. But, I damn well know a few of them. If we had tried to interfer with the assins and "Take them out" , as some have said (if we had found them) Then a lot of innocent people would have been killed or hurt that day and the OPS and the background information of how it was obtained would have been compromised. It would have been a blood bath in the plaza. Our job was to interupt their timing and remain "in the background" None of this was to ever be known by the public. It was a military Covert Ops. Anyone ever associated with that type of warfare knows what that means.
I hope this helps.. Its not meant to be critical. Thanks for all the information. Tosh
Dallas County DA's office finds cache of JFK memorabilia
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by William Plumlee
Thanks Bernice. Your most helpful. I think Peter Lemkin has a very good uncroped photo of the Cancellare which he gave to Tom Wilson to work on, in reference to two people at the fork tree shadows. Also I think our friend James Richards has a good clean copy. I could be wrong on this.
Do you have a picture of a train or box cars parked on the underpass a few hours after the assassination? If so this would show the height of the tracks above the baseline located at the bottom of the banisters of the underpass.
Thanks
note: the area in question as to the forked tree shadows is located on the far left of the picture you posted (Cancellare) above the lone man standing and just abouve the car top.