William Plumlee
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Posts posted by William Plumlee
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Tosh,
Those memory problems ... forget about 'em.
Charles. Forget What?
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Were Omega-7 and Alpha 66 at cross purposes?
Would the former have much to gain by sheep-dipping the latter?
Would anyone you can name profit from deflecting attention from the former by directing it to the latter?
Charles. I thought I answered this one but can't find the post or reply... I will try to respond again later, but I have to go and make a dollar now.....my short term memory is not as good as my long term and that's not saying a hell of a lot about each one these days...
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LHO had two apts. "the crazy doorway" entrance' on Elsbeth St, 605 or 602 I think ( from memory) also mentioned on this Forum years ago. Ask Jim Marrs and Peter Lemkin about that apt. I took Jim Marrs to both of these apt, Becklet and Elsbeth, also Nigel Turner and Oliver Stone's people were taken there by me.. The apt behind the Beckley St address LHO visited the Cubans many times and I was there ( the back building directly behind Beckley). My initals were carved in a draining board at that rear apt. and as of 1991 were still there "WRP" as confirmed by the owners. The two Cubans who rented that apt were thrown out because of the messes they made and all the late night visitors and the carved WRP on the draining board. This was also told to the Church Com and Congressman Tomas Downing in 1975 before the HSCA was formed...... I was attacked at the time I post most of this information and it went nowhere...... I was just trying to help researchers.... that was information before the fact... given to law enforcement and later to this forum and its members... it did not happen I was told by many on this forum and I was called a fabricator and xxxx.... This is "Background Information for you I hope it helps in some way. There is a lot the research community does not know about all that... Harlendale, Franandez (pho sp) and those associated with Alpha-66 and Omega-7 of Miami... but what do I know.... I read about it in 1932 in The Dallas times Hearld in comic section.
Thanks for the post Tosh and the information. Can you expand any on who this Franandez was? I have not heard the name before.
If I remember right and that's getting harder to do.... "Cecil" Franandez at one time worked with Eugene Martinez on the "Raider Ship REX out of Port Everglades Florida and West Palm Beach. The REX was the communications ship which was parked next to the Kennedy Compond at West Palm when the President was in Florida and all radio communications was criptic feed and cleared at that point before it went to DC and WAVE Station Fla. (Miami Station not JM/WAVE).... WAVE Station was not JM/WAVE and it was not located at the same place as JM/WAVE. Cecil (code name) went to Dallas to set up a gun running operation to feed guns to the A-66 and others. Soon others followed Franandez to Dallas and set up other type operations. Some Omega 7 and some from the old M-26-7 of the early days of Castro's July 26th movement were also associated with this front operation which ran through Texas and the southern states. Franandez was a close friend of CRISPIN anf GONzalos two Cuban pilot who were lost in the BoP in aircraft 933. There aircraft was found a few years ago in the jungles of Nicaragua and their remains taken back to the USA by the military and the CIA. Franandez was shot and killed sometime in 1974 by unknown persons.
Lord help me if I made a mistake on this memory..., because if I did then nothing I say can be believed. I never knew Cecil's real name and there are thousands of Franandez'es ... perhaps it was meant to be that way.
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He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.
Dawn,
Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:
Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?
A: No response
[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]
Q: If not, why not?
A: No response
[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]
Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?
A: No response
Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?
A: No response
Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?
A: No response
Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?
A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.
Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?
A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway
They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)
Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?
A: No response
Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.
Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally,I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.
if there existed parental signatures and the like.That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.
How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER?It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.
We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.
He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.
If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.
I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.
; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ;Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received: (1) Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?
A: No response [current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]
ANSWER Not at 14..... I was on 4 years Federal Probation... The document provided which supports this is sanitized... but there are others in file as probation reports of the time which are not sanitized. If I am to post ever document to prove to you every matter I say then we will be here for years.....If it goes to a court or investigated by proper authorities then those none sanitized documents will be provided.... and too I will share my research to some extant... but not all, nor will reveal all my sources to you or anyone at this time. Point being: I was 14 years of age.., on federal probation.., and went into the National Guard and then into the Regular Army... then back into the Army reserve at Dallas Love Field.
I did not lie about my age my birth date is on my discharge papers as well as where I worked. It was NOT LEGAL to be in the National Guard at 14.., let alone be on Federal probation for ITSA. Did anyone do any kind of "background check" on me before enlistment. A Kid walks into the army National Guard and says I'm 18 or 17 and I want to join? And they say OK here is your Tank.
Some months later the kid says Ok I think I will join the Regular Army and he goes and says I was in the National Guard and want to join. They say OK. Here is your rifle and your MOS of 006 basic trainee. The birth date is on the discharge and enlistment..., but they too, did not do a background check.... However after a few months and a promotion as Cpl he is Honorable discharge from the Regular army for being a minor and is sent back (not to the National Guard, but the Army Reserve and assigned a MOS of 1795 a Tank Crewman.. The boy is only 16 and a CPL in the Army reserve. Nothing strange about any of that... happened everyday...
And too I was still on Federal Probation until I was 18. 2. Q: If not, why not? A: No response
Why not What? [current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal] Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up? A: No response
There were about seventy of us young lads all under age and had been in trouble with the law and were now in the army I was in training with a few of these boys. I did not do the paperwork or ‘Sheep Dip" the 71 boys that were about my age. Cover up by who? Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it? A: No response
I Have a full VA disability because of injuries received while in military service; gun shot wound and in WBAH at Ft Bliss Texas where I was taken. I was in 14 days in traction after a two week stay in Korea as a US Army member. Got shot in the butt and was taken back to the states. After some years that got me full VA because started having bad trouble with my back, legs and hip.., because at the time of the gun shot I was also ran over my a jeep. Of course the VA verified all this before benefits were awarded.
Again I did not do the paper work or the "Sheep-Dipping" and cover up of a young boy of 17 or so. Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN? A: No response
United States Army. Go read a book on who were there and why. Us Military served in Korea long after the conflict was over... It was not a WAR.
Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?
This was long before the term "Special OPS" term was used. This was a program similar to the "Dirty Doz" used in WWII and ran by old OSS officers who had came back from the war Europe as well as the Pacific.
A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.
Referenced Court Sealed Documents and Sanitized Federal Documents as to this event. Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?
A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway with court approval as well as the probation department of the US Government. They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Beaumont Army Hospital for 14 days.) Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it? A: No response
This has been studied and investigated properly by a Varity of Federal officials and private investigators
Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.
What's your game and what are you trying to say? You have indicated that I run away from the Hard question... and you tone is "No Respond" to your hard questions as if I am a "Fabricator, perhaps even a xxxx.
I posted a statement in an attempt to help researchers trace a path to were I am to day and why..., and tried to back it up with just a FEW of the many documents I now have which now support my military and CIA associations...... Your tone and style I feel is to get others to doubt anything I have to say... I have the proof of what I say and have said over the years... Because you are a Johnny come lately" is not my fault.
However, I do commend you in your effort to untangle this and the truth in your quest toward the JFK matter. What you think of me is of no importance. I am trying to help, but its difficult.
Now you run along... there is nothing to see here.... If you took your "Blinders"off and walk with an open mind you might learn something..... How can you get to the truth when you will not even read what is available on this subject.... are you really being Object as a researcher?
Have you missed the real point of this thread? Have you tried to disprove an event that happened? Are you saying that I was not in the National Guard at 14, went into the regular army discharged and back into the Army Reserve as a CPL with a MOS of 1795 Tank Crewman and who has 100% VA disability today because of injuries received while service connected? What's your game... to cause me hours of typing to defend myself and stop me and others from working on this COLD CASE? What is your motive?
Again get real..., and get with the program... If I can help you I will... But if you want to lead me down NEVER-NEVER LAND....and tell me Black is White and White is Black... then I will not Respond to any of your slanted question regardless of your motives... And I mean this in the nicest possible way.
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Sorry to see that this forum has become nothing more than a "Chat-Chat" forum for little kids... however little kids could get more done that what the grown ups do around here. It did not use to be that way.
What meaningful research has come from here in the past 12 months... nothing but name calling, tickling ears, fighting, and the likes... Take a look at yourselves... Shame shame... shame.... AND I too have fallen into the trap... but I'm going to extract myself and work in other avn... to do what this forum was set up to do... Inteligent Debate... Not CHAT CHAT CUSE AND CALL people liars and fabricators.
This forum is many things. In fact, it is what members want it to be. Over the years we have had several people posting who have been involved in some way with cases like the JFK assassination and Watergate. This has included Tosh Plumlee, Gerry P. Hemming, Harry J. Dean, Nathaniel Weyl, Dennis D. David, Doug Caddy, Alfred Baldwin, Adele Edisen, Doug Horne, Wayne Smith, Vaughn Marlowe, Judyth Vary Baker, Daniel Marvin. Angel Murgado, etc. There have been other important figures but they were given permission to use assumed names.
Some like Harry Dean and Doug Horne have openly answered questions. However, most of the "witnesses" have been selective in the questions that they want to answer. Others have become very hostile to those asking difficult questions. That is the way it is. It is up to the visitors to the forum to decide who is telling the truth.
It is also a problem keeping genuine JFK researchers onboard. John Kelin has told me that he will no longer be posting because of "insulting comments" made by members. It is impossible to censor all these comments but I plead with all genuine researchers not to resort to comments that will drive important people away.
John: I am trying to hang in there, but its difficult at times. I am updating my BIO for you and should have it ready in a few days... Its a finding time thing with me at the moment. But I will do it because I told you I would...,
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Dear Mr. Plumlee,
Thank you for your reply and clarification.
This Forum (JFK section alone) contains over 80,000 individual posts. Most of these (I guess about 60,000) were posted before moderators were appointed to the Forum. Moderators were appointed roughly one year ago.
It would be a huge undertaking to review all old posts on this Forum. This is why posts, such as the one you posted today (from the year 2005), have not been edited.
Sincerely,
Antti Hynonen
FINE. Lets move on and I will try my damest to answer the HARD question as I have the time AND TOO, I will try to stay on the subject and NOT be lead into NEVER-NEVER land by those who want a stroke or two or for their egos.. I will try to stay focus on what this Forum is trying to Do with the information on JFK that is available. I too, would like to fit this puzzel together. I was a very SMALL player in those days and some questions you can not apply todays standards to days of old. AND too, I was not of the grade to known many secret matters as to the planning and those involved (in spite of what some might think).
Things were different back in those days (50s-70s) and applying what we know today is like Monday night quarter backing... I respect what people think of me good or bad. I was a young man of 14, military a Cpl got into a big mess and at 18 I was flying for CIA companies and had association with the Pentagon, military, White House Sit Room and Nat Sec. as well as org crime and the likes... say what you want about me.... I can't change what I was involved in.... It was a different day and a different time and a different world back then..... I was asked to write this book DEEP COVER SHALLOW GRAVES... Years ago I tried to write it but there was no, or very limited documentation to support my claim..And my house got burned to the ground. Today there are a lot of supporting documentation.., some of which I have tried to share with you. I will forge ahead with or without this FORUM. I too, want the Blanks filled in for me... and believe me there are many.
I am traveling doing research in some real tricky matters. I sure some will say when I do not respond in a day or two that I ran from the Hard Questions......... Why is it so important to discredit me... If what I say and have said all these years is fabricated then why so much flak, yesterday and today... I once used the term:
"The Hip Bone Connected to the Thigh Bone and the Thigh Bone connected to the ...". That is my life from 14 on and now 70 plus....Can't anyone see? It will not be long before the Powers that Be are kicked out of office and then perhaps we can move forward toward truth as to Kenedy and other matters held Secret for all these years. If someone tries to Kill me it would only PROVE me... I think THEY who ever they are, would be sure I do not even stump a toe while walking on a deserted beach... forgive the typos and spelling I have other things to do but this was important.....
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Dawn Meredith posted: Tosh re-posted an old post by Hemming where he called Tosh names and used the A word. Tosh was edited. I understand the rules and abide by them. His point is that people here are calling him a xxxx, by implication and the mods say nothing, but if he posts the A word he is put on moderation. Perhaps he is being overly sensitive about this point (the A word stuff). But he has taken a lot of time this last week to try to respond with real and useful information. He's answered questions. Specific questions with specific answers. But the continual nitpitcking has gotten old for me. And I see that it has for him as well. Seems he can't win.
Dawn
Tosh is not on permanent moderation. I have not threatened to request that he be placed under moderation. As far as I know this is not the issue. As moderators, we have to edit posts which contain bad language, ok, at times we miss a few posts and would appreciate members pointing those posst out to us, via reporting them.
On a different note. If there are posts which a memebr deems hurtful, mean or otherwise inappropriate, please report such posts. I have had two reports from Tosh. Both for the same post - and yes, they were reports for his own post. I pointed out earlier, that he may edit his own posts. Members are under control (normally) of what is posted under their individual membership accounts. I.e. no need to report ones' own posts.
Kathy Beckett posted: This is quite OK by me, however, I am unclear at this point where the real problem lies. And because of the above, I am answering on the board, which I don't care to do, but someone needs to say something.Me too.
Here is the post of old: and what led up to the exchange: ref post "I Ran Drugs for Uncle Sam Dec 20, 2005
QUOTE(William Plumlee @ Dec 21 2005, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(George Bollschweiler @ Dec 21 2005, 12:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(William Plumlee @ Dec 21 2005, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Does anyone have a copy of the article, "I ran Drugs for Uncle Sam", by Neal Matthews, San Diego Reader, April 1990? If so would you care to post the " MILITARY MAP" that was printed with the article. I think anyone who thinks they know about these operations would find the names and places of interest that are recordered on this map.
There is a lot of talk and names being thrown around... Post the Map, if you have it, and the date the map went to the Senate of the United States. Take a look at those names and aircraft ID numbers.
Where are the researchers?.... You have missed the 'Meatball".
Tosh, here is a link to the article unfortunately the map itself is not very clear but I'm sure someone of the forum members can produce a better one. www.phoenixarchives.com/express/1991/0591/13-06.pdf
(don't know why its not working here but if you copy and past into goggle it does)
George
Fm Plumlee
Thank You George for the link. As you know that article has been hidden for over a decade. The map is a very important link in understanding the operations down there. I might add that this map was marked before the public firestorm hit in the mid eighties and the Iran/Contra matter became public knowledge (as noted in the Letter from then Senator Gary Hart, Dem of Colorado, to the Senate Foriegn Relations Committee in 1983) Do you have a copy of that letter. I think it has been posted on this forum a few months ago.
Thanks again. Good Research
Tosh
----------------------------GPH POST DEC> 21, 2005 5:37 in nreference to I RAN DRUGS FOR UNCLE SAM.......
And once again, here is "Tooshee" posting an exact description of his "snitch-self" !! This is the clown who heroically tells some San Diego trash-tabloid scribbler about "waving" a white hanky out the window as a signal to the nasty-ass dopers. Then, our hero, SITTING IN THE RIGHT SEAT of a DC-3, starts the left engine first.
Hey dumb-ass !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!
And then, amidst .50 calibre "Ma Duece" tracers, the dumb-ass pilot "turns into the wind??" Any comic-book reader knows that you ALWAYS TAXI BACK to the landing end of the strip -- and if the dumb-ass beaners have the Trucks/Toyotas at the wrong end -- tough titty, they follow as you taxi back. And shutting down even one engine, when it's NOT a refueling site ?? "WHAFOO YOU SO DUMB ??"
And that gas station "MAP" -- with a bunch of stupid scribbling on it ??!! WHAT ?? exactly is that supposed to prove. Yeah, about the same as your 2 page PDF "file?". And of course there is everybody on the planet who fails to grasp the insider scoop on Kiki Camera's demise ??!! Give us a break. What is it, you got another gullible fish on the hook again.
Sue a homeless skid-row snitch ?? You gotta be kidding. But, tell you what I will do, I've got 8 lbs. of snitch files on YOU, which somebody forgot to "Klassy-Lie" (LOL) -- and I think it is time for some of the members to do some interesting reading about "Tooshee-san" !!
When "Googling" turns up two pages of worthless crap, I can see why you feing ignorance of that search-engine. Please guys, gals, and gullibles -- find my "map" and my phony "I ran dope for the big Uncle" crap-story -- Huh, pretty please !!
Get a life, and go bug "Wimp-Drank-to-much-Beer".
END of THAT POST
I find the above very degrading toward me and toward this forum and its members... however, this post has stood on this forum un corrected when it has been proven that the person had lied and degrade another forum member.
I ask a question and received the above respond from that flake.
When I asked and posted a reply from two pilots who stated this person was wrong and it was not corrected... I ask why the DOUBLE STANDARD......... To let this post stand by being called a xxxx by tone, style, and context. is the reason I am Pxxxed.... THe point of the post was to prove you can start a DC-3 from the right seat and I posted the reply frpom two qualified pilots..... I only ask a questionI got slammed by that AH and then this forum:
HERE IS THE POST ABOUT THE MAP AND ETC> THAT I POSTED AND EDITED THE CURSE WORD BEFORE I POSTED>> ALSO NOTE THE INFORMATION ON HOW TO START A DC-3 WAS NOT ADDRESSED And too, I PROVED THIS PERSON WRONG BY POSTING INFORMATION FROM TWO PILOTS ABOUT STARTING A DC-3 FROM THE RIGHT SEAT.
ARE THERE ANY FORUM RULES AS TO DEGRADING POST ....MISS INFORMATION..... DEROGATORY REMARKS....KNOWINGLY TAKING INFORMATION Out OF CONTEXT, MISS QUOTING AND MAKING INFERENCE THAT ONE IS A xxxx AND THE LIKES. EXAMPLE:
Plumlee "...A few weeks ago I was told by a young researcher 20 years old, that I had never been a pilot and was never in a DC3 type aircraft. So xxxxx took anything I had to say with a grain of salt and as a result did not background check anything concerning JFK because XXX said I was a BS artist. Following is an example of how dis information is put forth. You can not prove a negative. Those who hi jack threads and put false information on forums do more damage to the research community than hundreds of CIA "clean-up artist".
I only post this as an example. Why it was never posted before now is beyond me.
E-Mail copy: (OK'd by sender)
Rodney. The following information was posted awhile back to discredit me. (2005) Another DC-3 pilot (Dixion) came to my rescue, but it was not posted or addressed on that forum at the time. And now I am being told because of that post that I have never been in a DC-3. Ha 2500 logged hrs in that bird. One old DC-3 pilot did come forward in by behalf but it did not get posted.
Would you care to comment on this? The following is the exchange......... ...".
note: From another post in respond to a question Mr Plumlee asked the Forum
"...And once again, here is "Tooshee" posting an exact description of his "snitch-self" !! This is the clown who heroically tells some San Diego trash-tabloid scribbler about "waving" a white hanky out the window as a signal to the nasty-XXX dopers. Then, our hero, SITTING IN THE RIGHT SEAT of a DC-3, starts the left engine first.
Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......
.................
,.... .... ....
gals, and gullibles -- find my "map" and my phony "I ran dope for the big Uncle" crap-story -- Huh, pretty please !!
Get a life, and go bug "Wimp-Drank-to-much-Beer". ...". end of post.E Mail reply with permission Reply to above derog post by XXX:
from MV Dixion to Education Forum Att. Mr Simkin, Education Forum:
Mr. Dixion's reply to XXX postings in reference to DC-3. ( Dixion was a DC-3 pilot DC-10 capt. for Cont. Airlines.
Mr. Dixion's reply to post
"... The following is not true. I tried to counter this wrong information but could not because I am not a member, nor do I want to be one. I thought you might like this information. I would think other DC-3 pilots would come forward and support a fellow pilot.
December 06. Capt Dixion's reply. note. He could not reply to post because he was not a member of that forum.
"....My name is M.V. Dixion and I live outside Escondido Ca. I was directed to this website by another pilot friend of mine. I am a retired Airline pilot and flew the DC-3 for seven years in the 1960-67, and have over six thousand hours in that aircraft. I retired from the Airlines after 35 years, with the same company, in 1994 as a DC-10 Capt. based out of LAX.
I notice the slam on this fellow pilot and thought I would add my two cents worth.
1. Yes you can start a DC-3 from the right hand seat. In fact I have flown the DC-3 solo many times from the right seat.
2. The gentleman who stated that the hydraulic punp is on the left engine is wrong. The DC- 3 had hydraulic pumps on both engines Pratt&Whittney 1830's (and 1830-92 series of engines) Perhaps the gentleman has his aircraft mixed up. The DC-4 had the hyd- pump on the number 3 engine Ask any pilot about this.
I think this person wants to discredit Mr Plumlee who ask for information about an article and map. I see it as an attack on the person who ask for information. But that is not my interest to get engaged in that sort of debate. Anyway the information about the DC-3's hyd pump is wrong, as well as other statements made by himIIf you have questions you can reach me through the ALPA and I would be happy to reply in more detail. I do not like to see a pilot take in in the shorts as this person seems to want to do to the DC-3 pilot, Plumlee) who only ask a question about a map..
I reference this exchange on the Education Forum.
Poster's, remarks and reply to Mr. Plumlee's question asking for help in locating a map of Central America: (2004-2005)
Hello Tosh, (Rondey Stitch 2008)
Thanks for giving me the referrals. I copied them to my computer and will print them out and absorb the details when my printer is fixed. Everything sounds interesting.
........ .......... .....
I read the negative comments. If it were me, I'd ignore it. Further, if you had a type rating in the DC-3, that would immediately discredit the other party and then I'd drop it.
I flew the DC-3 (got my type rating in it from American Flyers, Fort Worth, in 1951, and also type rated in the DC-4, with lots of time in that. It has been many decades ago, but I can not see any problem with either pilot's positions starting the engines. The sequence of engine starts in the DC-4 were 3, 4, 2, 1.
The ratings I received were DC-3, DC-4, DC-8, Convair 240//340/440 and the 880 jet; Martin 202/404; Curtis C-46. I received one of the first ATP pilot ratings in Japan, # 170 (Orville Wright was before me!!!)
Again, why not get your story out, and it could be not only in print form but on the Internet.
Best wishes,
Rodney Stich End of Email
P.S. I was warned when I used the word S... and the word A.. H...e in a reply and If I did not stop I would be taken off the forum. Makes me wonder about this form of selective enforcement found on this Forum.
I support the work on this forum and John Simkin's dedication to try and get to the truth about Dallas and beyond. I would like to see its members focus on issues and supporting evidence and the facts and information which is available from dedicated researchers.
I have been warned by the powers that be not to go on Forums anymore. Well I am not the type that will be intiminated by those A.. H... e's
Here I am. Now take you best shot.
CODE
Edited for language.
This post has been edited by Antti Hynonen: Today, 12:44 AM
I DO NOT WANT TO GETR INTO A LICKING MATCH WITH THIS FORUM BUT I SEE IT HAS GONE INTO DOUBLE STANDARD MODE>
PS I EDITED THE ABOVE POST BEFORE I POSTED>>>> LATER I USED YOUR WORD AXXX AND GOT EDITED ....FACT
I don't really give a S;;; Its your deal.... I tried... I see this as a double standard... this is one of many I have had to deal with for the four years I have tried to exchange and give information I might have in reference to the JFK matter.... muy threads have been hi-jacked and I have been warned... and bla bla and whine whine... SHOVE IT UP YOU KNOW WHERE>>>
Now I posted the original post. This all over the word AXX of which I edited from the orginal post of Dec 21, 2005 @5:37
The reason this came up was because a lady of 20 years told me I was wrong and I had never been in a DC-3 as she obtain from the post in question...
Now I am taking your time to untangle this mess in place of doing real research... for that I am sorry..... BUT not for pointing out this 'Double Standard".
I am clearing the air and trying to answer the questions directed to me as I said I would..... I know you have not read this nor care... I used a dirty word and that is the issue... not the question I asked and the nasty reply I received.... consul me again i do know the forum rules and I do abide by them and I expect others to do likewise... I have just wasted an hour responding to this type of BS in place of working on the case at hand...
DO You SEE what I mean?... The tone and the style and the context of the original reply and post of "I Ran Drugs for US" by this person
is the issue not the little curse word AXXX. The mis information in the post has never been addressed even when good people send letters proveing the information posted by the PERSON is wrong and presented in a manner to DEGRADE.
I try to help you people the best I can... But I get taken off into never never land with this type of stuff rather than doing any meaniful work..And answering the HARD QUESTIONS. You are the Moderators You untangle this false information posted by one of your forum members.. I do not have time for this crap.
READ MY BOOK AND THEN THROW IT IN THE CRAPER.... IT MIGHT EVEN HAVE A BAD WORD OR TWO IN IT>>> AND THAT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT INFORMATION IS IN IT>
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Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I am in transit and its hard to find a computer hook-up and the time to reply.
Perhaps I confused the issue on this bullit.
About four years ago I and others made a request to the DPD to scan the upper east side of the NORTH KNOLL of the Plaza. While we were having coffee I was asked to draw a rough map of the area we wanted to scan with our metal detector(Whites DFX) . (confidentiality) from the DPD brought out an old DPD file with a bullet attatched to the file and report. They said the old file had been found missed place and lost. It was found "stuffed" behind a file cab in the year 1978 (the year the file was discovered) BLANK put the bullet on the "X", which I had drawn for them, on the rough crude map and took a picture of it. (seven pictures of the bullet in the old file.., and one picture of the bullet with the map I had drawn)
The "Fork Tree" is about where Sergio and I were standing when the shoots were fired. The "parked truck" and the south edge of the triple underpass was the path we took after the shots were fired as we crossed over the RR tracks and left the Plaza.
I was under the impression that the bullet had been found sometime around 1971 or there about. (Landscapers were doing work around that location (putting topsoil down and doing gen yard work) I was told the old file and report said the bullet was about "2" inches deep when found, but about "6" or "7" inches deep after the top soil had been placed.
We concluded that this bullet had no value as to any investigation because the "chain of evidence" had been broken and the details of the original find were lost to time. Our request to scan the area (about 2002 or there about can't remember for sure the year) was not approved by the City of Dallas. They did not want people digging up the Plaza "..looking for things that were not there") I always wondered about that bullet... was it planted there over the years by ??. Was it there in 63?" on and on. I am sure we will never know and it means nothing today as far as evidence is concern. It too, is just another "wild story" that lingers around the JFK mystery and that day one much like the person who said " a shot came from over my left from where I was standing near the "Forked Tree".
I saw your thread and remembered this information and posted. There are other pictures of this bullet and I have copies of it I obtained from the DPD. Now how I got this is my research and I will keep that all confidentual for now.
I do not take any stock in bullets found after the fact.... this long after the fact... I just reported a story about a bullet found in an old file given to me by a friend of the DPD, after I requested to dig up the Plaza looking for a bullet that might have been fired from the south end of the underpass.
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Sorry to see that this forum has become nothing more than a "Chat-Chat" forum for little kids... however little kids could get more done that what the grown ups do around here. It did not use to be that way.
What meaningful research has come from here in the past 12 months... nothing but name calling, tickling ears, fighting, and the likes... Take a look at yourselves... Shame shame... shame.... AND I too have fallen into the trap... but I'm going to extract myself and work in other avn... to do what this forum was set up to do... Inteligent Debate... Not CHAT CHAT CUSE AND CALL people liars and fabricators.
No thanks to you.
As someone who fits the same Operataional Profile as the accused assassin, someone who has been through the system, as someone who could help explain some of the tradecraft, lexicons and procedures, who knows many of the players personally, and still being alive, you are in a unique position to help independent researchers interested in resolving many of the outstanding questions about the assassination.
Instead, you keep harping about whether people believe you and your bizarre story of being sent to DP as part of an assassination abort team, and nitpicking with those who ask legitimate questions that could help them advance their own research.
Now you are doing what TG did before he got monitored and disapeared - making numerous irrelevant posts and responding negatively to minor points.
Why don't you just post some more interesting official documents (not the same one over and over) and let us ask you some questions?
For starters, did you know or ever meet John Martino and figure out his relationship to Rosselli?
And what's your story about the bullfighter?
Thanks,
Bill Kelly
Thanks Bill:
I feel I have in the past helped research into the JFK mess. I have given names dates and safehouses.. I have said how I knew Martino, Roselli Hunt Farrentello, and a host of others as well as LHO... If you think I am an assassin thats O.K. too. I have tried to help and I have spent hours answering questions only to be taken off into never never land and hijacked threads that go nowhere and cursed out on this forum. I'm sorry you feel the way you do but I respect that.
Yes. I knew Martino and was "an associate" what that means I moved money and flew people around the country Mafia as well as CIA and Military from the Pentagon. I have said Farrentello and others introduced me to Rosellie at Bay Front Park Biscane Bay at the end of Flager St not far from Sloopy Joes". and on and on and on... I was at one time to detailed I was told.... another not detailed enought......
All I can say at this point is read my book... don't buy it... just read it. In there you will find some your answers. I'll send you a FREE copy.
As to documents many have recently been declassified and released and others I have posted and some have posted many I do not have.
All I can say at this time is read it in my book due to be released this fall "Deep Cover Shallow Graves". Seems the new releases and declassified documents and the release of detailed reports of the Kerry Committee as well as the CIA declassified 80TXXXX and a few 302 and 202 and a few more 104's perked the ears of a reliable and established publisher. Most of the info was stated before the releases and the names of which I allegde years ago are in the new releases..... any more than that? I can't help you at this time..... I recently tried to start in 1952 and bring it foerward, but that was blocked.
If I could have got to that point then I would have explain what happen to me after I was released from ther service. I worked for Southwest Airmotive, Trans Texas Airline... Then Riddle Airlines, and Regina Cuban Air Cargo carrier (1955-61) as an Aircraft Mechanic and thereafter Flight Mech. In 1972 some of the companies I worked for proved to be CIA Front companies.... Southwest Aero Charted, Inter-Mountain, Evergreen before it was Evergreen,, World Air, and many which I have already named... but they will be in the book in more detail with some more interesting names.
I told John Simkin I would expand on my BIO after he ask me two. I told him I would and I am in process of doing, In spite of what you think I do try to keep my word... some of the info I just told you about will be in that Bio... names and places and dates... In spite of what you think... I am and trying to do my part... Time is an important commodity for you as well as I. small points big points take time some prople do not want to hear or read what I have to say so they block it in many ways...... anyway I do apreciate your honest, but negative feelings toward me and that his O.K also. I wish you the best and I do hope you find your answers someday.
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Sorry to see that this forum has become nothing more than a "Chat-Chat" forum for little kids... however little kids could get more done that what the grown ups do around here. It did not use to be that way.
What meaningful research has come from here in the past 12 months... nothing but name calling, tickling ears, fighting, and the likes... Take a look at yourselves... Shame shame... shame.... AND I too have fallen into the trap... but I'm going to extract myself and work in other avn... to do what this forum was set up to do... Inteligent Debate... Not CHAT CHAT CUSE AND CALL people liars and fabricators.
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ARE THERE ANY FORUM RULES AS TO DEGRADING POST ....MISS INFORMATION..... DEROGATORY REMARKS....KNOWINGLY TAKING INFORMATION Out OF CONTEXT, MISS QUOTING AND MAKING INFERENCE THAT ONE IS A xxxx AND THE LIKES. EXAMPLE:
Plumlee "...A few weeks ago I was told by a young researcher 20 years old, that I had never been a pilot and was never in a DC3 type aircraft. So xxxxx took anything I had to say with a grain of salt and as a result did not background check anything concerning JFK because XXX said I was a BS artist. Following is an example of how dis information is put forth. You can not prove a negative. Those who hi jack threads and put false information on forums do more damage to the research community than hundreds of CIA "clean-up artist".
I only post this as an example. Why it was never posted before now is beyond me.
E-Mail copy: (OK'd by sender)
Rodney. The following information was posted awhile back to discredit me. (2005) Another DC-3 pilot (Dixion) came to my rescue, but it was not posted or addressed on that forum at the time. And now I am being told because of that post that I have never been in a DC-3. Ha 2500 logged hrs in that bird. One old DC-3 pilot did come forward in by behalf but it did not get posted.
Would you care to comment on this? The following is the exchange......... ...".
note: From another post in respond to a question Mr Plumlee asked the Forum
"...And once again, here is "Tooshee" posting an exact description of his "snitch-self" !! This is the clown who heroically tells some San Diego trash-tabloid scribbler about "waving" a white hanky out the window as a signal to the nasty-XXX dopers. Then, our hero, SITTING IN THE RIGHT SEAT of a DC-3, starts the left engine first.
Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......
.................
,.... .... ....
gals, and gullibles -- find my "map" and my phony "I ran dope for the big Uncle" crap-story -- Huh, pretty please !!
Get a life, and go bug "Wimp-Drank-to-much-Beer". ...". end of post.E Mail reply with permission Reply to above derog post by XXX:
from MV Dixion to Education Forum Att. Mr Simkin, Education Forum:
Mr. Dixion's reply to XXX postings in reference to DC-3. ( Dixion was a DC-3 pilot DC-10 capt. for Cont. Airlines.
Mr. Dixion's reply to post
"... The following is not true. I tried to counter this wrong information but could not because I am not a member, nor do I want to be one. I thought you might like this information. I would think other DC-3 pilots would come forward and support a fellow pilot.
December 06. Capt Dixion's reply. note. He could not reply to post because he was not a member of that forum.
"....My name is M.V. Dixion and I live outside Escondido Ca. I was directed to this website by another pilot friend of mine. I am a retired Airline pilot and flew the DC-3 for seven years in the 1960-67, and have over six thousand hours in that aircraft. I retired from the Airlines after 35 years, with the same company, in 1994 as a DC-10 Capt. based out of LAX.
I notice the slam on this fellow pilot and thought I would add my two cents worth.
1. Yes you can start a DC-3 from the right hand seat. In fact I have flown the DC-3 solo many times from the right seat.
2. The gentleman who stated that the hydraulic punp is on the left engine is wrong. The DC- 3 had hydraulic pumps on both engines Pratt&Whittney 1830's (and 1830-92 series of engines) Perhaps the gentleman has his aircraft mixed up. The DC-4 had the hyd- pump on the number 3 engine Ask any pilot about this.
I think this person wants to discredit Mr Plumlee who ask for information about an article and map. I see it as an attack on the person who ask for information. But that is not my interest to get engaged in that sort of debate. Anyway the information about the DC-3's hyd pump is wrong, as well as other statements made by himIIf you have questions you can reach me through the ALPA and I would be happy to reply in more detail. I do not like to see a pilot take in in the shorts as this person seems to want to do to the DC-3 pilot, Plumlee) who only ask a question about a map..
I reference this exchange on the Education Forum.
Poster's, remarks and reply to Mr. Plumlee's question asking for help in locating a map of Central America: (2004-2005)
Hello Tosh, (Rondey Stitch 2008)
Thanks for giving me the referrals. I copied them to my computer and will print them out and absorb the details when my printer is fixed. Everything sounds interesting.
........ .......... .....
I read the negative comments. If it were me, I'd ignore it. Further, if you had a type rating in the DC-3, that would immediately discredit the other party and then I'd drop it.
I flew the DC-3 (got my type rating in it from American Flyers, Fort Worth, in 1951, and also type rated in the DC-4, with lots of time in that. It has been many decades ago, but I can not see any problem with either pilot's positions starting the engines. The sequence of engine starts in the DC-4 were 3, 4, 2, 1.
The ratings I received were DC-3, DC-4, DC-8, Convair 240//340/440 and the 880 jet; Martin 202/404; Curtis C-46. I received one of the first ATP pilot ratings in Japan, # 170 (Orville Wright was before me!!!)
Again, why not get your story out, and it could be not only in print form but on the Internet.
Best wishes,
Rodney Stich End of Email
P.S. I was warned when I used the word S... and the word A.. H...e in a reply and If I did not stop I would be taken off the forum. Makes me wonder about this form of selective enforcement found on this Forum.
I support the work on this forum and John Simkin's dedication to try and get to the truth about Dallas and beyond. I would like to see its members focus on issues and supporting evidence and the facts and information which is available from dedicated researchers.
I have been warned by the powers that be not to go on Forums anymore. Well I am not the type that will be intiminated by those A.. H... e's
Here I am. Now take you best shot.
CODE
Edited for language.
This post has been edited by Antti Hynonen: Today, 12:44 AM
I DO NOT WANT TO GETR INTO A LICKING MATCH WITH THIS FORUM BUT I SEE IT HAS GONE INTO DOUBLE STANDARD MODE>
PS I EDITED THE ABOVE POST BEFORE I POSTED>>>> LATER I USED YOUR WORD AXXX AND GOT EDITED ....FACT
I don't really give a S;;; Its your deal.... I tried... I see this as a double standard... this is one of many I have had to deal with for the four years I have tried to exchange and give information I might have in reference to the JFK matter.... muy threads have been hi-jacked and I have been warned... and bla bla and whine whine... SHOVE IT UP YOU KNOW WHERE>>>
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Dear Mr. Plumlee,
For some reason you can not receive personal messages. So here is my reply to you.
Thank you for your reports. I have now edited the not permitted curse words from the post you reported. Unfortunately we can not allow cursing on the Forum as this is an educational forum for students and teachers.
See rule:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=Swearing
You reported a post of your own. You can of course edit your own posts yourself, and therefore reporting your own posts is unnecessary. In my posting from earlier, (replying to the double standards, you raised), I mentioned that members ought to report posts which are offensive or otherwise in violation of Forum rules, by this I of course meant that members ought to report posts by other members, but I guess this works as well though.
As a reply to your question:"If you want me to get off this forum and not "breath your air" or help in any way..., then just tell me. And I am gone."
Please don't get me (or other moderators) wrong, we are not trying to chase you off the Forum in any way, we have been given this moderation task with a goal to keep members adhering to Forum rules, that's all we're trying to do.
Kind regards,
Antti Hynonen
Moderator
Education Forum
SIR I am not the one who did the cussing! You did not read the post I was making reference and Why I calll Double Standards... Its useless...
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Not sure if this is going to work. If not I sent it to John and if he wants he can post it. The picture is a Dallas FBI taken in Dallas in Novermer 63 and was located a few months ago at the DPD.
This is the thirt time this has been posted and taken off:
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I have posted in good faith; references and documented my comments the best I could and shared my information good or bad with all members. This was to support what I have said and posted in hopes of helping forum members understand where it all started with me, my going into specialized military training when I was 14 years of age..... I feel some on this forum are playing fast and loose with the truth and my references and documentation... I feel it is intentional and not in accordence with forum rules. There have been others incidences (documents, military and CIA information) in which the same has happened. I do not expect anything or action to be taken on this... I just wanted you to know... I think this forum is "Slanted" and not what it claims to be....I see that Some can make derogatory statements with NO references, by tone, style, and context, and degrade those who are trying to abide by the rules and find truth and they are allowed to "hi-jack" threads and the information contained therein; And too, to degrade the source of the information. Sorry. I do not expect you or this Forum monitors to do anything... I just put it on the record and will move on..
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There is a big difference between a" Sealed Court Case" and a sanitized released court case; (meaning blacked out sections or pages) An "Un -Sealed" court case is not sanitized. A Court Sealed case is not sanitized when or after it has been ordered unsealed by the court.
When by a court order the case is unsealed, that case is NOT sanitized when it is released. The Plumlee case was "Sealed by Court order then "unsealed" some fifty years later, but it was sanitized after its release. Who sanitized it?
Why was the terms of Plumlee's 1952 Court procedings sanitized in full after they were unsealed?
It was said on this forum that the 1952 document, which Plumlee referenced, said nothing about any four years probation or going in to the military at 14. How would anyone know this?... all the pages were sanitized. I see this as "playing loose" withf the facts and the documents and the references supplied by Mr. Plumlee. Was this intentional? If so then I have to ask why? What would be the motive for doing this? Would this be considered as a violation of Forum Rules?
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Not sure if this is going to work. If not I sent it to John and if he wants he can post it. The picture is a Dallas FBI taken in Dallas in Novermer 63 and was located a few months ago at the DPD.
I have tried to attatch the documents which were taken off once again. Why were they taken off in the first place?
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Peter:
This looks like the document, and I am on the phone with Terry right now too and she is also looking at it, but the places that said "53-cpl" and "55 cpl" are not on this document.
Tosh told me he had sent you the same document that got removed.
For the record Tosh did not remove this document, and would like to know how it got removed.
Dawn.
Dawn Hope this attatches. Its VA Award... Not bad for an young boy who never saw combat and only had a MOS of 006 and was a Sherman Tank driver among other things in the years to come. I'll post the other part of the army file with the MOS etc that was taken off the Forum when I started this thread and the other ones, which have also been taken off... I would like to know why they were taken off? I backed up what I said with certified documents (and got attact and implied I was a xxxx... so much for my efforts. I am sure if this does attatch.., it too, wil be taken off... Do you see what I mean? When I get a chance and the time I'll catch up on the questions.... I am traveling at the moment and computer time is limited. As to that other thing and its posting just give it no time or space...It and they will soon go play in another sand box... they have a mission to disrupt good research and researchers to stroke their egos.
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HA.. This should start some CRAP.......... Can I say That?
.......... LEE HARVEY OSWALD DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE! . ..... Only Perverts (might not have spelled that name right) belive outherwise, IMO....
IT COULD HAVE BEEN ME, drinking a Dr. Pepper that day, BUT THE STARS WERE NOT IN ORDER AT THAT TIME......
Now come on Jump on My AXXX..... I am tired of "Pussy-Footing" with some on this Forum and your secret Emails... Say what you have to say and be done with it.... BUT Please Reference and Document your sources and your information... and stand behind your statements. I deal in Facts or at least I try to the best of my ability, and I do respect those who make an attempt to do LIKEWISE...... I do not know everthing, but I SURE AS HELL KNOW SOME THINGS.....
high ball *7.... GOING FOR * 8 SEE YA IN THE SPRING... ITS HOT WHERE I'M GOING... A STUPID PLACE TO GO THIS TIME OF YEAR. BUT I NEED THE BUCKS... NO. I DON'T THINK ITS Hell... but some down there say it is...., at this time of year.
back to Florida and all those 85 year old drivers, eh?
Yep.... bought a brand new Golf Cart... a two stroker with an electric three prong batt. that plugs into my Condo.... I'm gonna chase Gators with my Golf clubs..... And Too, Im gonna chase K all around the little city and try to gret some.... at least I hope.... dream on.... dream on... old man dreams... what a life....... see ya...
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HA.. This should start some CRAP.......... Can I say That?
.......... LEE HARVEY OSWALD DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE! . ..... Only Perverts (might not have spelled that name right) belive outherwise, IMO....
IT COULD HAVE BEEN ME, drinking a Dr. Pepper that day, BUT THE STARS WERE NOT IN ORDER AT THAT TIME......
Now come on Jump on My AXXX..... I am tired of "Pussy-Footing" with some on this Forum and your secret Emails... Say what you have to say and be done with it.... BUT Please Reference and Document your sources and your information... and stand behind your statements. I deal in Facts or at least I try to the best of my ability, and I do respect those who make an attempt to do LIKEWISE...... I do not know everthing, but I SURE AS HELL KNOW SOME THINGS.....
high ball *7.... GOING FOR * 8 SEE YA IN THE SPRING... ITS HOT WHERE I'M GOING... A STUPID PLACE TO GO THIS TIME OF YEAR. BUT I NEED THE BUCKS... NO. I DON'T THINK ITS Hell... but some down there say it is...., at this time of year.
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Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.
1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067
Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'
"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin BormannIn August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.
Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.
Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.
Is any of this true?
Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.
"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.
3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.
Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm
(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)
(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)
(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.
Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'
John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html
Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html
Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.
Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.
Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.
Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.
However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?
It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.
Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!
There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.
One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.
In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!
From the Whitewash...
Mr. Dulles.May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.
...
"Mr. Dulles.He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."
Brilliant Allen.
DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter
I hope this attatched and I hope its the right picture.... if not I'll delete.
PHOTO TWO:
Tosh, What is the date on that drawing and for whom did you draw it?
Again IF I REMEMBER RIGHT He said 1978 or there abouts Jay Harrison had all the details in his files... He gave me a copy before he died. And said he would "Kill Me", if I told anyone before he died. Some years later my brother became aware of this, I am told (3rd hand) I understand another person also had this information and he was with the Texas Rangers, or the Texas Department of Public Safty (not sure) I think, and his Grandfather was killed by Wallace at a Golf Course in Austin Texas... not sure of all the details.....
I protect my family and always have. My brother was with the Dallas PD, as you know, and I did not whant to cause him or my mother any problems. My mother is still alive at 90, and a few years back she was told I was dead in an aircraft accident in SA... that was not true, as Jim Marrs knows... my mother is 90 years old. and I will protect her from this until the day I die as well as my brother.
Ask Jim Marrs about this..... Perhaps he will crawl from benieth the rocks and say something.... I mean this in the nicest way.. Jim?....
I did not draw it for anyone. It was a causual conversation at the Rainbow Club in Dallas with an undercover Dallas PD contact....who processed it.
He showed me the bullit... and I told him... It meant nothing, because the chain of evidence had been broken. He told me. "We'll see" We never did. Years later Jay mention he received this information from that person... (un named on my part, still alive) You have no idea what your messing with.
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My time is short. However I did want to post this for those who may be interested.
(1) I had nothing to do with my reported DEATH. Police reports are available for those who want to take the time to check. My home in NM was broken into and computers were stolen and all the passwords were on those computers. Some weeks later one of the computers was found in ABQ new Mexico in a Pawn shop.. (police report to that effect) On the date after my friends death, Tim Carroll, the noticed was posted as to my DEATH. It was said posted by my brother, who is a retired DPD Sgt;. Narcotics Div. He was with the Dallas PD for over 35 years before being honorable retired from Service.. I am very am proud of him, my little brother.. .. (...another swig from my Rum and Coke, Thanks....., I'm back)
I do not expect you to understand any of this. But with your indulgence, I will continue:.
I did not report my death as some of you have said. Those who know me know I would not do that.
I can not disprove a negative...,nor will I try. I was asked by many people on this forum to come back and post. I did. If the information I have locked up inside me is of no value in this search for truth..., then that is O.K. with me. But it can't be said I did not try. There is nobody going to kill me... for what I know.., or think I know..., In fact its the other way around.. They had better make sure I do not even stump my toe.... because what I have said in the past will be proven and confirm my "Wild Tails"..
I believe in the work that this forum is doing and its members. That is why I became a member. And I give a Thumbs Up to John Simkin for his dedication and that of his crew. And in my way have tried to help the community as a whole in its search for truth in reference to JFK and that tragic event on that bad day in America's history.. For me, It has been difficult.
(I'm going to fix another Rum and Coke and try to make sense..., forgive me)
Thank You. .....,.I'm Back. (That's three and I don't drink anymore.., or less..., at least at my age... that was a #3... Kay would shoot me if she knew I was doing this)
But, to me this is very important as it was with Tim Carroll and Jay Harrison before they took the "Old Check Ride" with God.. (One more for a toast to them)
I'm Back: I think:
I am trying to gather recently released documents and assimilate them into some kind off order which proves what I have stated for over forty years. I am the last of the breed. Hunt is gone. Sturges is gone,WarBarbell is gone..., "Wild Bill" Harvey, is gone, Roselle is gone, Giacana, is gone, Martino, is gone, Varona is gone, Justo Carrilo is gone, Bill Morgan is gone..., Fuller is gone..., Paul Huges is gone, Sullivan as well...(forgive my typos and spelling...but I'm under doctors care at this moment and stupid and crazy... I admit it or I would not be doing this) (downed..., #4..thanks)
Damn right they are going to kill me.., they are jocking into position as I type this. The only thing I have going for me is what I have said in the past. Paranoid? Perhaps. None the less, its info before the Fact (my reading glasses just quit working)... Perhaps.... Who cares? Only Kathy. My lady Kay knows the real story.., However, she does not know what I know deep down... it can't be verberlized) I signed on in a black envoirment long ago.., not really knowing the GAME .... and as the years piled up on me, I became aware, you can't get out..., you can't get out even if you wanted to..
many and this Forum.... that's OK... I am not responsibility for your ignorance or what you think or where you come from in life.. You have no I deal how this Game is played.
(One more and I'll get back to the basics) Pardon me I have to PEEE.., damn I wish I could spell, but they did not teach that to me in the School of the America back in those days. They taught other matters, of which others would not understand. (GOD this is GOOD). One more, and I'll continue.... of course, with your indulgence.
I really don't know where I am going with this... I am an old man... just reaching out... who claims to have a story and wants to tell it before he dies..... there have been at last check Ride in the Sky......(#5..., on the way... please forgive..., got to let my dogs out to PEE And... OH... I can't say that word... sorry...... I'm back... Thank You)
Where was I? Oh Yes.., I remember... No where...Ha.... the story of my BS life... I will continue with my Ramble with your indulgence... I am a phonetic speller and even that does not work sometimes.... thank God for spell check..., but I cant find it)) This will never stay posted, even if it gets posted... its to rabbling and says nothing.... please forgive...
#1 I saw JFK get his head blown off. I was there. I know a team failed in their mission... that has hurt me for over forty years in spite of what you might think.
#2 I know how the team got into Dallas out of Dallas and why they were there in the first place. AND They were NOT an Assin Team, as some you have stated on this forum.
#3 I know what was going on in Dallas and Texas before it happen.
#4 I know there is a "Clean-Up crew THAT USED TO BE OPERATIVE to make sure that what I and others know never sees the light of day.... they are OLD like me.... but they are still around... but not connected with the government today and Never was associated with CIA or Military Operations. They roll around in their ‘Wheel chairs and spout BS stories about their 15 minutes of fame and cling to a memory that lingers in their imaginations of things they wish they were a part of, but could never meet the grade or complete the sacrifice required.
#6 and I am out of here..... what you do with this and my past information; I don't really care.
The truth about JFK is about to explode... and I mean that in the most nicest way.. (should not use that phrase today) because that is a reason for THEM to kill me. Ha... so long... I have to PEE again and "Snowflake" my puppy just pissed on the carpet.... and Kay is going to shoot me when she gets home...
Thanks for letting me vent.... I do appreciate that... and I do wish all of you who search for the truth the very best.... your friend Tosh
P.S. You Know What? I have not said a damm thing in this message.... sorry. Much like some who post on this forum..
T.
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The corruption of innocence is the key.
It is as ancient as the scriptures.
See: Original Sin.
This may -- and I carefullly choose my word -- take us deeper than we care to go.
In My Life. I sure as hell went deeper than I wanted to go. Monday night quaterbacking did not work in my day. Sure as hell will not work today...
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Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.
1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067
Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'
"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin BormannIn August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.
Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.
Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.
Is any of this true?
Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.
"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.
3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.
Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm
(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)
(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)
(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.
Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'
John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html
Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html
Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.
Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.
Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.
Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.
However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?
It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.
Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!
There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.
One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.
In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!
From the Whitewash...
Mr. Dulles.May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.
...
"Mr. Dulles.He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."
Brilliant Allen.
DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter
I hope this attatched and I hope its the right picture.... if not I'll delete.
PHOTO TWO:
-
Primarily a site to dump stuff. Evidence seems to suggest the use of a .45 during the shooting.
1. There is what Sam Pate has indicated he learned based upon his relationship with Hargis and other DPD, in addition to an FBI agent - that a man named Bruno used a .45.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=55067
Forget about the shots and how many there were, the shot that removed a large portion of JFK's head was hit by a 45 cal. Auto with a silencer and it was only a loud muffled sound according to motorcycle police officers. There were more shots than the Warren Commission's report. OK, put your thinking cap on...your comments are rather silly. If I made "live" reports from the scene within a couple of minutes after the shots were fired and later during that day that the tapes Karl also taped from my "Live" reports were removed and the replocated tapes several days later. Now how in the heck do you expect to hear the shots that never existed ? Make you feel a little silly ? The FBI sent them to be analyzed by some firm and they said there were 4 sounds that were found on that tape. If the guy with the 45 cal. auto with a silencer on it just how many others had the silencers ? The mans name who fired the fatal shot was named BRUNO and he was from Chicago and he and Jack Ruby were goon squad men for the Teamsters Union in the windy city many years ago. Jack Ruby had lived in Dallas for almost 8 years before JFK was killed. I knew Jack very well for about 6 years before Kennedy was killed. Forget about the oneman shooter or two men shooters, there were several of them and some are still around and many of their offsprings are also in the business. Me Scared ? Bet your sweet you know what everytime I think about it and knowing that everyone of them knows me. I can tell you, many of the people on the last anniversary hit right on the head many who were involved in Kennedys death and somebody wants me to tell all I know ? Get Serious. Sam Pate2. There is the Mae Brussel material concerning a story reported by the London Guardian - which indicated that a man with the code name 'Zed' used a .45 for the final shot to Kennedy's head. I think it should be pointed out here that more recent research indicates that Bormann committed suicide - and his 'appearances' were possibly the result of disinformation campaigns sponsored by the Soviets. Some stuff on the topic can be found in 'US Intelligence and the Nazis.'
"Treason for My Daily Bread" -- Argentina and Martin BormannIn August 1971, a French paper headlined a news story, "Martin Bormann behind the Kennedy murders." It listed an international band of killers that was located in Texas. They carried out the two assassinations at the German command.
Six years later, June 8, 1977, the London Guardian reported, "Bormann Linked with Kennedy Murder." This story was based on a new book titled, Treason for My Daily Bread by Mikhail Lebedev.
Lebedev detailed how Martin Bonnann left Europe, established his current life in Paraguay, and how the fatal head shot to Kennedy was delivered by an agent paid by Bormann, alias of Zed.
Is any of this true?
Many of these allegations and names come together with both Paris Flammonde's The Kennedy Conspiracy and the Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal, known as the Torbitt Document.
"Zed" allegedly used a .45 for the final shot. Buddy Walters, murdered January 10, 1969, picked up a .45 slug in Dealey Plaza and gave it to the Dallas Police.
3. There is the HSCA report on a .45 round clanging off one of the DPD Motorbike's fenders - which could help explain how a .45 round could have ended up where we see photographs of something that resembles a .45 round being retrieved. An enlarged and enhanced crop of the area attached.
Wasn't able to quickly find the HSCA document...
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id173.htm
(120) When Richard Randolph Carr testified in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy trial of Colay Shaw in New Orleans on February 19, 1969, he stated that heard a shot and then three more shots in succession at the time of the assassination.(341) When asked if he could tell where the shots came from, Carr replied that "the last three" came from behind the picket fence located at the top of the grassy knoll, and that one of the shots "knocked a bunch of grass up"; he could tell by the way the grass was "knocked up" that the bullet came from that area.(342) Trying further to pin down the supposed location of the shots he heard, Carr stated that the sound came from the end of the cement arcade at the top of the knoll which was closest to the underpass.(343) When asked if he could determine from the direction in which the bullet hit the ground which direction it was traveling in, Carr said that if the bullet had continued, it would have gone from the area of the picket fence in the direction of the Criminal Courts Building.(344)(121) On August 13, 1978, the committee received information that a person in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963, had noticed a bullet fall to the ground near the motorcade at the time of the shots. Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Tex. called the committee to report that he was present in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination with a friend, Mike Nally.(345) According to Rodgers, Nally's uncle was a motorcycle policeman riding in the motorcade.(346) The uncle had apparently related to his nephew that when the shots were fired, he heard a clanging noise off the fender of his motorcycle.(347) the policeman looked down and saw a .45 caliber slug roll of into the [*PAGE 23 FOLLOWS*] street.(348) The policeman then had to leave the area quickly as the motorcade was speeding from the plaza.(349)
(122) Rodgers said the next day Mike Nally came to him and said Nally's uncle had instructed him not to report the story and Nally passed that instruction on to Rodgers.(350)
(123) Based on the data provided by Rodgers, the committee was unable to locate Nally or to identify Nally's uncle.
Probably because he lived on 'Harlemdale.'
John S Craig below mistakenly identifies Buddy Walthers as FBI. Buddy was a Sheriff's Deputy with the DPD, and appeared to stand guard over the round, which was scooped up by a man whom to my knowledge, remains to be identified. If I recall, someone informed me that this individual had been identified, but no bells are ringing upstairs on a name.
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/guns_dp.html
Deputy Sheriff Craig claimed a .45 calibre slug was found in Dealey Plaza by government authorities. Some researchers believe that FBI agent Buddy Walthers was photographed picking up a .45 calibre shell on the opposite side of the grassy knoll just off Elm street. In August of 1978 the HSCA received a phone call from Charles Rodgers of Lake Dallas, Texas, who was present in Dealey Plaza during the assassination with a friend Mike Nally. Nally's uncle, who was a motorcycle policeman in the motorcade, told his nephew Mike that when the shots were fired he heard a clanging noise on the fender of his motorcycle. When he looked down he saw a .45 caliber slug roll off into the street. The policeman was unable tostop and investigate since he was part of the motorcade that began to speed toward the hospital. Rodgers said that Mike Nally told him that his uncle had instructed them not to mention the story about the .45 calibre slug. The HSCA was unable to locate Mike Nally or even identify the name of Nally's uncle. [95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car. [96]There is the report in the book 'Red Roses of Dallas' by a man named Gun that Walthers told him that a .45 was recovered by himself and an agent of the SS. Garrison seemed to have reached the conclusion that while Walthers first testified to the existence of a bullet, which was collected by an SS agent [while DPD Joe Foster looked on], on the south side of Elm - distinct and separate from the bullet which struck the curb on Main that wounded Tague - he since recanted in order to save his job.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat...0052-10212.html
Walthers sounds like a real scumbag from what Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig has to offer, so it's plausible. Buddy also fails to appear in photos and films where he claimes to have been stationed during the motorcade. This is just a great read...
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
He came to the Sheriff's Department as a patrolman but because of his close connection with Justice of the Peace Bill Richburg -- one of Decker's closest allies -- Buddy soon was promoted to detective. He had absolutely no ability as a law enforcement officer. However, he was fast climbing the ladder of success by lying to Decker and squealing on his fellow officers.
Walthers' ambition was to become Sheriff of Dallas County and he would do anything or anybody to reach that goal. It was very clear Buddy enjoyed more job security with Decker than anyone else did. Decker carried him for years by breaking a case for him or taking a case which had been broken by another officer and putting Walthers' name on the arrest sheet. Soon after he was promoted to detective he became intimate with such people as W. 0. Bankston, the flamboyant Oldsmobile dealer in Dallas who furnished Decker with a new Fire Engine Red Olds every year and who was arrested several times for Driving while Intoxicated but never served any jail time.
Buddy's acquaintances also included several independent oil operators throughout Texas, several anti-Castro Cubans and many underworld characters -- especially women! He was frequently crashing parties which were given by wealthy friends of Decker's -- of course while he was on duty. He often became drunk and belligerent at these parties and at one point, when asked to leave, he threatened to pull his gun on the host. This information can be verified by Billy Courson, who was Buddy's partner at that time.
Walthers hit the big time when, in 1961, two Federal Narcotics Agents came to Decker's office with charges that Buddy was growing marijuana in the back yard of his home at 2527 Boyd Street in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. This could be considered conduct unbecoming to a police officer -- but not for Buddy! After a secret meeting between the Federal Agents, Decker and Buddy, the matter was dropped and -- needless to say -- covered up, thus enabling Buddy to continue his career as Decker's Representative of Law and Order in Dallas County.
However, the Dallas Police began receiving complaints that Buddy was shaking down underworld characters for loot taken in several burglaries and selling the stuff himself. After several reports the Dallas Police began to investigate and, finally, obtained a search warrant for Buddy's home. Their BIG mistake was securing the warrant from Judge Richburg -- which was bad enough -- but Buddy's wife also worked for Richburg and this made matters worse. Strangely enough, they did not find anything. However, a few weeks later they were a little more careful and made a surprise visit to Buddy's home, where they, indeed, recovered such things as toasters, clothing and various items -- just as their informers had said. It would seem they had him this time, wouldn't it? But not so. Buddy explained that he had recovered the merchandise from where it had been hidden and had not had time to make a report on them and turn them in to the Property Room! The Dallas Police didn't buy this story but the pressure was again brought to bear by our Protector, Bill Decker, and the Dallas Police were left out in the cold -- no charges filed! They were certainly furious but what could they do? If WE as citizens cannot fight the Establishment, how can the Establishment fight the Establishment?
It was clear in my mind, and if the people with whom I worked could talk, I am sure they would agree that Buddy had a powerful hold on Decker. I base this on the fact that Buddy's popularity with Decker greatly increased after the assassination. Buddy was a chronic xxxx -- he was always telling Decker things he thought were happening in the County which he was checking on. Things which he was not doing. He also told Decker that he was in the theater when Oswald was captured and that he, in fact, helped the Dallas Police. This was completely untrue. Buddy never entered the Texas Theater -- his partner, Bill Courson, did.
Buddy also told Decker about a family of anti-Castro Cubans living in the Oak Cliff area and said that he was watching them. This part may have been true because we received the same information from the Dallas Police Intelligence Division. But one day Buddy made a visit to the house in Oak Cliff and when the Police and Sheriff's Deputies went to question them a few days later, they were gone. Did Buddy warn them? After all, he was very, very close to Jack Ruby. In fact, every time Buddy was in trouble with one of Jack Ruby's employees -- especially Nancy Perrin Rich -- Decker would send Buddy to straighten things out and put Nancy in her place -- with the help of Judge Richburg. Touching Jack Ruby was a no-no!
There were many other things which made Buddy suspect as a not-so-law abiding lawman, such as the swimming pool he built in his back yard (on his salary?). The concrete was furnished by a local contractor free of charge. Buddy used many pills he carried in the trunk of his unmarked squad car for trading with certain underworld characters -- pills for information. I learned from what I consider a reliable source that these pills had been confiscated (although no reports were made nor the pills turned in). Most of those involved in this exchange were women. It would seem that Buddy Walthers could not be terminated from the Sheriff's Department, no matter what.
One incident in 1966 which would have resulted in the firing of any other deputy occurred when Buddy was sent to Nevada to transfer a suspect wanted in Dallas. It seemed Buddy was given a certain amount of travel money which he lost at the gambling table in Las Vegas. Broke and in trouble, Buddy called none other than W. O. Bankston, who wired him enough money to bring his prisoner back to Dallas. Many times I wondered who was REALLY Sheriff but Buddy was about to reach the end of his rope.
In late 1968, when the Clay Shaw trial was being prepared, there was talk of bringing Buddy to New Orleans to testify. Well, that was a blow to the power which ruled Dallas. They could not have this half-wit on the witness stand. When the word reached Dallas, Decker was working on a double-murder which occurred in his county and had a lead on the suspect in January of 1969. The Shaw trial was scheduled for February and Decker sent Buddy and his partner, Alvin Maddox (who was about as efficient as a nutty professor), to a motel on Samuell Boulevard in Dallas to question a Walter Cherry about the killings. Cherry was an escaped convict and a suspect in the double-murder. Decker sent them to talk to Cherry without a warrant. When they entered the room at the motel Buddy was shot dead and Maddox wounded in the FOOT. Coincidence? Maybe! At any rate Buddy had been silenced. One more point for Dallas!
From the Whitewash...
Mr. Dulles.May I add one other thing just to interrupt. I wish you would add to your list a book called "The Red Roses of Dallas" by a man named Gun. He is a more reliable correspondent.
...
"Mr. Dulles.He might have been lying. This book is full of lies. But I think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and I will see that a copy is sent to the Bureau."
Brilliant Allen.
DPD found a file in the basenent a few years ag. It was turned over to the FBI.. (as I was told by a DPD Sgt. (certified) I hope the link comes out for you... I have a copy of the file. This bullit was found on the North Knoll at the far east end directly inline with the south end of the Tripple Underpass. Documented: This picture is not really a good one... but it makes the point... there are 7 pictures.... the drawing is from a "Subject" interviewed on another matter
I hope this attatched
Not a JFK Debate Forum Anymore
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Sir I respect your tours of duty (if any) and your military lineage. And I respect your opinions of me. If it makes you feel better to slam me and infer I am a xxxx and have never done or been what I say..., then that is O.K. too. I am not here to prove anything to you. However, for you to talk about medals, law, and the likes and apply all that to establish your self serving fact to cover your false observations about something you know nothing about is the mark of a very stupid man.
I could question your motives and I too could get into a pisxxing match with you on various matters... but you would not comprehend and would keep rattling about matters you know nothing about...... I will not justified my existence to you are anybody... so you keep on turning and churning and calling "white black" and "black white" the likes.... It makes no difference to me.
Sir I don't give a damn who you are or what you think you know about me, or What you think you are in the world of life..... I do not care what you post and I care less about the information feed to you by those who hide behind their BS and get people like you to wash their dirty linen to cover their tracks. I do know them and too, I know their motives..... Your nose is so brown I can see it from here. I know your type; a hanger on from another planet I believe.
If you have something to say to me then say it straight out in one complete sentence. You do not have to back it up.., just say it..... I respect your views, but being the type person you are, I do not expect you to respect me or my life. So be it.
You go on and suck up this space and others time with your views and expertise and self serving manner. That is ok with me. But if you have to do it... do it professional. Better yet I will say it for you...
I'm full of Crap.. (Oh you said that) I have never done the things I have said and proven... OH Yes, You Said That. I did not prove anything its all lies and fabrications in your view. Right? OH you said that.... You have established your point.
Now would you care to contribute constructively to the research to this Forum in its search for the truth of the JFK assassination?.. Would you care to record your views and put them out their for others to review and question you on?. Do you have an opinion about this case and can you contribute something factual and constructive one way or the other.... or are you just the type that does not have an opinion... You have an opinion about me and go to pains to express it.... Can you go through that same 'pain" and time, to put your thought down for the members of this forum to evaluate? I think not...its easier to slam me and others and create a false illusion of smoke and mirrors. I have wasted enough time with the likes of you.... I have to move on... you have shown me nothing When it comes to OPS your less than nothing... and so is your friend...
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