William Plumlee
-
Posts
1,053 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by William Plumlee
-
-
"... It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. ...".
Theodore Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris
April 23, 1910
And with that I leave you in Peace.
-
Okay Jack. Let's take just one of the things that you claim to "know" and that I too know a bit about. You write:
"I KNOW that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition because an undamaged steel building does not just collapse by itself. Many experts agree with this. I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided."
It is true that modern Class A steel frame buildings do not usually collapse. But WTC7 was not your usual Class A steel frame building and 9/11 was not a normal day.
The envisaged footprint of WTC7 was expanded by a third when it was built in the mid-eighties to squeeze out the last square inch of floor space. Since original pilings were already drilled to bedrock though the then existing ConEd substation, the expanded floor size could only be accomplished through the construction of three huge cantilever trusses which carried the expanded load back into the central structure. There was no redundancy in this design. If a major structural member failed, the building would come down. Secondly, there were 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel either in or under the building. Thirdly, "modern" construction techniques meant that wider spans of floors were supported by fewer columns. All this came together in a building that was much more delicate and subject to collapse than your ordinary steel building.
Secondly, you say WTC7 was "undamaged". You're wrong. Photos make clear that WTC7 was damaged by debris (flaming I-beams, facade members, aviation fuel) that hit it after the collapse of the South Tower and a second blow one-half hour later after the collapse of the North Tower. This building was hit substantially and fires started on numerous floors.
Finally, the severing of a twenty-inch water main on Vesey Street by the collapse of the North Tower meant there was no water to fight a high-rise fire in the building. After sending a reconnaissance team into the building to determine whether to try to fight fires in it, Chief Daniel Nigro made the command decision to let fires burn in the building unabated. Fires started in the building at around 10:30 AM and continued unabated until the building collapsed at 5:21 PM. These fires were fed by the 43,000 gallons of diesel fuel in the building. Video of the collapse shows that it started on a lower floor at the approximate location of Column 79. This is the unanimous opinion of the structural engineers who have studied the collapse. Column 79 lies in a direct line over the most northeast of the three trusses mentioned above.
I'll bet when you decided that you "knew" the building was brought down by "controlled demolitions" you knew nothing of the above. If you choose to know nothing, you can hold any belief you want to hold and call it "knowledge." Then (as with the Fetzer-White-Costella claim concerning Officer Chaney) you can continue to believe it forever, never admitting you made a mistake.
What we are talking about here are the costs of never admitting you're wrong. I'll bet you'll continue never admitting you were wrong about Chaney and never admitting you are wrong about WTC7. Am i right?
quote name='Jack White' date='Feb 24 2008, 01:07 AM' post='138519']
Some people "do not admit their mistakes" BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MISTAKEN.
For instance, I KNOW that a Boeing jetliner did not hit the Pentagon, because there
is no genuine evidence of aircraft wreckage on the outside of the building, and
the small hole in the wall is too small for the entire plane to go inside the building.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that no cellphone calls were made from "hijacked" airliners on 911, because
many experts have said that was impossible. It is possible to provide indisputable
evidence of any calls made. That has never been done. I will not admit I am wrong unless
indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition because an
undamaged steel building does not just collapse by itself. Many experts agree with this.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I KNOW that Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill JFK. There are multitudinous proofs of this.
I will not admit I am wrong unless indisputable proof is provided.
I could go on and on. Nobody should be bullied into accepting lies.
Jack
Jack I have to disagree. My wife works at the Pentagon for the Joint Chif of Staff J-2. I was there shortly after the crash and I saw the tail and the numbers in all the smoke and confussion AND DEATH. I watched as parts of the airliner was removed and firefighters fought the blaze while many were removing bodies. To tell me I did not see an airliner is a disservice to those who were killed. They were NOT killed my our goverment. I think some want to believe we would do something like that are real sick people. I think their motive is to sell stories and write books and add height to their lack of stature. At a time when we should rally together and stand firm as a solid nation, we have some who like to walk with lies and untruths to perhaps drawn attention to themselves and stroke their own egos.
I had respect for you as a researcher and as an American... that is now gone. I'm sure you do not give a crap what I think... But I am an American and I am damn proud of it. And in my own way I have fought hard for her and her flag. We are not perfect, but we are getting closer and you Sir are a real POS in my opinion.
-
DALLAS District Attorney Craig Watkins
Press Conference – February 18, 2008 10 am (CST)
Dallas County DA Craig Watkins: Good morning. This is an interesting and historic day for Dallas County. For those of you who have not been following this story, about a year ago we were made aware of a safe on the tenth floor of this building, and in that safe contained information about the Jack Ruby trial and the Oswald assassination. We started looking at this stuff about a year ago and determined after we started looking at it that we had to catalog it, and we have been doing that for just about a year.
Now just a little history on this deal. Every District Attorney to my knowledge has been made aware of the contents of that safe, and every DA up until the new administration, had decided that they wanted to keep it secret, for whatever reason, they kept it secret. We decided this information is too important to keep secret. Our motto has always been that here, under this new administration, everything is open. We don't have anything to hide. So we are making public everything that we have found in that safe.
Now two documents that really stick out in this safe include an alleged conversation between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Now we are going to make those copies available to you. And in fact this is a copy of a transcribed conversation between Mr. Ruby and Oswald at the Carousel Club.
Now we don't know if this is an actual conversation or not. But what we do know is that as a result of this find, it will open up the debate as to whether or not there was a conspiracy to assassinate the President.
Another interesting document that we found in that safe was a contract signed by the (then) current DA Henry Wade for a movie production deal. This contract was signed on April 27, 1967 and it would have made Mr. Wade a rich man. But we don't know why this movie was never produced.
And aside from the fact that we have all this historic information about the Kennedy assassination, and what went on with the trial and investigation, there are other things that are very interesting in that safe.
In fact it takes us back to 1960, and the tone and the climate, not only in the criminal justice system, but our country, as it relates to race. And in some of those documents you would be surprised at how people of color are categorized. For example, I have a letter here from the Hunt County District Attorney at the time. His name was Cameron McKinney.
And he writes a really glowing letter to Mr. Hill and says….I am sorry Mr. Wade,…
"My my my goodness, Excellent, Perfect, Congratulations, sincerely Cameron McKinney."
Now this came from Hunt County…Greenville, I think is in Hunt County. Now on that letterhead you have Hunt County on the top of that, and right under that, in 1964, one of their claims to fame in Hunt County, is on the letterhead…they have "the blackest land and whitest people."
That tells you how far we've come in criminal justice, not only in this state but this country.
Now we also have another letter, it looks like from a police officer to Mr. Wade which deals with race. This is not dated, but I would assume that this letter was sent sometime in 1964.
You know when I went through all this information, it took me back. Even though I wasn't born at this time, it did take me back because I do remember seeing all the movies, and the situations people of color had to go through just to be treated fairly. This is black history month, so I thought it appropriate for us to address these issues at the DA's office and for the public to understand how far we've come, and how far we need to go.
Now this is from a law enforcement officer, a person who arrests folk, puts them in jail and is suppose to be fair. He says, "Dear sir, That Dego Wop Melvin Beli needs a psychiatrist more than that Kite, thought he could make a million dollars on the publicity by making a grandstand and make the police look silly…. It would make Hollywood. You did a good job sir."
Now throughout every document, and which is disheartening to me, and I don't understand it, you see that racist tone that goes throughout our criminal justice system in the 1960s.
And when I was elected in 2006, and all the racist's innuendos that I had to deal with. And so I specifically want the public to pay attention to what we have done in Dallas County to make ourselves look this way. Why we have to bring credibility to the criminal justice system, when a person's color was more important than his guilt or innocence.
And so as you're district attorney of Dallas County, I implore you to look at all these documents and ask yourself a question, why? Why did we do that? And then say to yourself, thank God we are past that. Thank God we can look at individuals and not at his color but his content.
We here in the DA office, finally, are in a position to do what is right, and bring justice to this county and to hopefully it will spread down to Harris County of all places, and throughout this state.
I'm glad to take questions.
Q1: Are you saying Henry Wade is racist?
CW: Well I didn't say that.
Q2: Are you suggesting that?
CW: I'm not suggesting anything. All I'm saying is that you look at the documents and you take whatever suggestions you want to take, from the writings of all the DAs who wrote him letters back in the 60s, from his own writings, look at his documents you make your own conclusions.
Q3: What is your conclusion?
CW: Obviously you know what it is. You look at these documents and you make your conclusions. But at this point it is history and let's make sure it stays history.
Q4: Was it ever communicated to you why these documents were kept secret all these years?
CW: It was never communicated to me why, but I have my own assumptions, but it's just an assumption. And I don't want folks to think this is the reason why they were kept secret. Now these documents don't shine a very good light on our criminal justice system.
And so all of those folks that may have been elected after Mr.Wade may have wanted to protect that. Now I was not a part of that. I'm not associated with the failed policies of the past. So I am shining a light on the past on those failures to show you how far we've come and how far we have to go.
Q5: Approximately how many documents are we talking about, and have you gone through them all yourself?
CW: I haven't gone through them all myself. These are the documents. We have started scanning these, and we are not done yet and don't expect to be done for a while. But you are all welcome to see these documents and come to any conclusions that you may come to.
Q6: Mr. Watkins, why do you lend the authority of your office to publicly acknowledge some of these documents that are highly suspect on the historical record, and have nothing to do with the evidence in Ruby's case, and fuel conspiracy type stories and fantasies?
CW: Well, I mean I don't appreciate that question the way you ask it. I believe that these documents are the people's documents. They can make their own conclusions as to whether they are suspect or not. I am not telling you that these documents are all true or are all fake. But I think, for historical purposes, we HAVE to make these documents public.
Q7: The purported conversation between Oswald and Ruby, is highly suspect, do you agree? So why do you lend the authority of your office for something like that?
CW: I am not lending my authority to this suspected conversation. All I am doing is providing you the information that we found. Now I didn't say it was true. I didn't say it was false. I said that it was in a file in a safe, and it needed to be look at, it needed to be open with anything else. So we're not trying to start this whole conspiracy argument over again. All we're doing is opening up the doors, and ending the secrecy that has been going on in this office for years, and let the public know that this office is not mine, it was not Bill Hill's or John Vance's or Henry Wade's, this office belongs to the people of Dallas County, and they should have access to this information.
Q8: What are your personal beliefs about conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination, do you think there's more to it?
CW: Well I have my own beliefs and assumptions, but I don't really believe that is relevant to this conversation we're having today. I think the people…..
Q9: Your beliefs are important. You're the DA of this county.
CW: In your mind you may think that. But I'm not making any kind of assumptions.
I am not going to tell you what I think about that because that's not for me to do.
There are folks who know more about this than I do, experts who can look at these documents and give you their opinions. I don't think my opinion means anything on these documents. We are releasing them as they should have been a long time ago, and we will let the citizens of this great county and this country to decide what it all means.
Q10: Craig, first of all it sounds like these are personal documents between Henry Wade and the producers, or whatever. If these are personal documents why are they in a public safe? Why didn't he take them with him?
CW: They were in a public building in a public safe that's part of a public office, and as such, we think these documents are public documents. And I can't answer the question as to why Mr. Wade had them locked them away in a safe. I don't know.
Q11: As for the movie deal, as far as you know did he get any money at all after signing that contract?
CW: I don't know. I don't know if he did or not.
Q12: Did you talk to any other DAs who had been here before you as to why they hadn't release them?
CW: No.
Q13: What else surrounded the fake or not fake transcript, are there other documents like that?
CW: That was pretty much the only one at this point that I have seen. Now the individuals who have been in the process of cataloging this may have come across other documents that I am not aware of. But that question is left best answered by those folks who have been doing this for the past year. Yes sir?
Q14: Do you plan on turning the JFK stuff over to say the Sixth Floor Museum, the JFK related stuff?
CW: We are in the process of deciding which organization is best served to keep these records, to preserve them and to make them public. We haven't made that decision yet.
Q15: Do you think the federal authorities will have an interest in them?
GW: I'm sure they will. No one knew about them until yesterday. So I'm sure the phone will be ringing off the hook from all across the country from those who want to view them and they will have the opportunity to view these documents.
Q16: Will these documents change the conclusions about the assassination?
CW: I don't know if they will change your conclusion or the conclusions that have been made. I do think it will stimulate a debate as to whether or not that was the proper conclusion.
Q17: Were these documents available to investigators at the time, and do you believe of all the investigations into the assassination, the people who needed to see the documents saw them?
CW: I have no clue. I don't know who was doing the investigation. All I can assume is that they did, and they were put into a safe at the end of a case.
Q18: How surprised were you when you found them and read through them?
CW: I really was not surprised. This office has been shrouded in secrecy for so many years, so I knew that we would find ourselves in this position at some point, so no, I was not surprised.
Q19: Craig, when you opened the safe, you must have said, there's a safe on the tenth floor, gee, what's in there? At what point did you decided to open it and look inside?
CW: It didn't come to our attention that way. When we got here, some investigators, like they have done with all DAs subsequent to Mr. Wade, explained to the elected official that there was a safe, and supposedly information in that safe concerned the Kennedy assassination. And I was told by those investigators, that those subsequent DAs wanted to keep it secret. And they didn't open it.
Q20: At what point did you decide to open it?
GW: When they told me we had a safe.
Q21: So you just learned about the safe?
QW: A year ago, when I got elected.
Q22: Okay, when did the safe actually open? If you learned about it a year ago and today was…What was the timeline on this?
CW: I took office January 1st, and I guess maybe a week after that I found out about the safe.
Q23: Who were the investigators?
CW: I don't want to say.
Q24: Did they work for Dallas County?
CW: Yes, they work for Dallas County.
Q25: …Suggests that the Ruby family had information about the President's ….. to Dallas prior to,….(unintelligible)……suggestion that what you see is more than what you know than what we're going to get?
CW: Well, I mean, I'm not making any assumptions. I'm just laying it out for you to look out. And for all you experts out there who follow this Kennedy thing, you can look at these documents and go back in your memory files and determine what all this means.
Q26: But you haven't had an expert examine them?
CW: No we have not.
Q27: So, what …..decision…?
CW: I never said, and in fact when you asked me that, I said and the ALLEGED conversation, so I don't know if it was a true conversation or not.
Q28: Have you contacted the Ruby family or the Kennedy family, and let them know what you found?
CW: Not yet, no.
Q29: Do you have plans to?
CW: Obviously.
Q30: In the interests of transparency, are you going to file a felony case against Lynn Flint Shaw?
CW: Hey, we're talking about Kennedy right now, we're not talking about that.
Q31: …real time?
CW: Yea, well that conversation is best left for another day. I'm here talking about the Kennedy assassination, not Lynn Flint Shaw.
[see:http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/013008shaw.73532592.html]
Q32: You say it will be open for the public to read, when will it be available for the public to do that?
CW: Well I foresee that we will have all this stuff completed and cataloged within the next month, and after that we will have an organization that we will release this to, and one of the stipulations is that that organization must make it public before we will release it to them
Q33: I want to go back to the timeline for just a second. You opened it a year ago. Today you are releasing it. What happened between a year ago and now? Have people been looking at it for a full year, or within the last month did you decide to….?
CW: We have been looking at this for a year.
Q34: When did you make the decision to go public, did you think of it immediately?
CW: We chose the date a couple of months ago, thinking that we would be finished cataloging all the information. We stuck to that date, which is today.
Q35: But I mean at what point did you decide to go public with it?
CW: We knew we were going to go public with it at some point, but we had to get everything organized and catalogued, and so when we got close to being finished we chose this date thinking we would be finished cataloging by this date but unfortunately we are not.
Q36: Did anybody advise you not to go public?
CW.: No.
Q37: Have you gone through everything, and cataloged it all or are there still documents you have to go through?
CW: There are still documents we need to go through that have not seen yet.
Q38: We see all these documents there….. How many documents would you say are JFK related in general?
CW: I would say 90% of those documents, 99% of it deals with JFK, Ruby and Oswald.
Q39: With the number of media people here, did you anticipate this level of attention?
CW: Obviously we are talking about the Kennedy assassination and conspiricists have been swarming this area for years, and so we knew that this would stir media attention.
Q40: You say there's documents related to this….. chance to go through them, or do you think there's more?
CW: We don't know what we haven't seen yet. Once we look at it, I can tell you what it is. But at this point I don't know what it is.
Q41: How many are Kennedy related?
CW: About 90%,
Q42: You've gone thorough 90%
CW: Yes.
Q43: Was the transcript of the alleged conversation mixed in with the other documents or separate from others?
CW.: It was actually mixed in with other documents.
Q44: The holster and the brass knuckles, who did they belong to?
CW: Jack Ruby, that is the holster of the gun he shot Oswald with, and those are brass knuckles that he had on him when he was booked at Dallas County Jail.
Q45: Can you describe any other material that's not….?
CW: We have some film that we haven't looked at; we have some recordings that we haven't listened to. We have a lot of membership cards to the Carousel Club, Jack Ruby's club. We have a lot of business cards of the Carousel Club, things of that nature.
Q46: Clothing?
CW: Clothing, Jack Ruby's clothing. Lee Harvey Oswald, we have his clothing. Autopsy photos.
Q47: From the day they were arrested?
CW: Yes
Q48: Were they in any kind of order, or were they just thrown together?
CW: No they were in no order. The safe they were in is about two thousand pounds, six feet long and six feet tall, and they were kind of just thrown in there.
Q49: You're talking about evidence here, is it your call or the Commissioner's Court, their call on how to dispose of this? And secondly why wouldn't you want to turn it over to the Sixth Floor, which is legitimate, it has its own collection now and can look deeply into the history, and put it on display for the public, where of course hundreds of thousands of people visit every years, why wouldn't you turn it over to them?
CW: Well, as for the Commissioner's Court, this is the property of the District Attorney's office and we can do with it as we please. And secondly, we have not decided not to turn it over to the 6th Floor Museum. What we are going to do is talk to a number of several different organizations. The Sixth Floor Museum may be the best place to turn them over. But we would like to keep the possibilities open to make that determination.
Q50: What are the other alternatives, the Smithsonian?
CW: Smithsonian……there's other places, a whole list of them.
Q51: You're not going to keep it in Dallas?
CW: We don't know that yet.
Q52: Are you going to sell it?
CW: No. We're not going to sell it. (Laugh)
Q53: So it won't turn up on E-bay? (Laugh)
CW: No.
Q54: One other question. You say there's been people working on this for over a year. Can you describe the group that has been looking at it, besides yourself, and what they've been doing?
CW.: Basically, most individuals that have dealt with this, they really haven't had time to actually read the documents. Most of the time has been spent scanning the documents, and cataloging the documents, so the majority of individuals probably could tell you very little about the content in those boxes.
Q55: So it's not that an assistant DA looking at them, it could be clerical or administrative staff?
CW: Yes.
Q56: What condition are the documents in?
CW: They're still in pretty good shape, 1960s shell paper; everything is typewritten from a typewriter, handwritten. It's in pretty good shape.
Q57: Aside from the alleged conversation, did anything jump out at you, I mean really shock you?
CW: No, that's pretty much it. That's pretty much it.
Q58: Craig, what shocked you more, the Jack Ruby documents, the material things, the clothing and holster or the racist tone you found in some of the letters?
CW: I think what really shocked me the most was the tone of the times. You know I was born some four years after the assassination, and I have seen all the documentaries on civil rights issues and I was surprised at how prevalent it was in our society.
Q59: What happens now? Is everybody allowed to go look at the documents?
CW: You all can go downstairs and can take a picture of the safe. We're not going to let you go through the boxes today, but you can take pictures. Once we complete the catalog process and we find a place to store these documents, then you will have the opportunity to view everything.
Q60: We are looking at month or more before that happens?
CW: I don't know how long it will take to happen. We'll do it as soon as possible.
Q61: Did it change your perception of the assassination?
CW: My perception. No it didn't. Allrighty. Thank you.
END OF TAPE
"....Now this came from Hunt County…Greenville, I think is in Hunt County. Now on that letterhead you have Hunt County on the top of that, and right under that, in 1964, one of their claims to fame in Hunt County, is on the letterhead…they have "the blackest land and whitest people."...".
I was raised in Dallas and had relatives who lived in Sulphur Springs and Greenville Texas. Greenville had an arched sign over the highway at the city limits which read; " WELCOME to GREENVILLE. The Blackest Land and the Whitest People". Below that sign was another which read. (forgive) "If your a n, Your Black Ass had better be out of this County By Dark". KKK and a picture of a noose was tied at the base of the sign. Yes we have come a long way. I am not sure when those signs were taken down. I think it was sometime after the early seventies.
I have a story about Dallas. When I was 10 years old. (1947) I was riding a street car on Cole Ave, near Cole Park in North Dallas, and a Black lady friend was riding in the back of the street car. She worked for my mother as a maid. We all loved her and she loved us and in Texas in the forties that was not a good thing. In fact she really raised me because in the war years my mother worked, as most mothers, at Haggar Slacks making uniforms for the servicemen. (Haggers was near Love Field) "Ma Bell", as we called her was a real gentle religious woman. (others my age called her "n Bell") I went back to sit with her. I crossed the line being a seat that was turned backwards.
She said, "OH! Mr. Bobby you shouldn't be here". "Your my friend". I said. The street car stopped and the conductor came back and demanded I go back up front. I said NO; and he hit me in the mouth, grabbed me and pulled me to the front of the street car. I called him a SOB and he hit me again. "Your Folks Au'ta Whip You with a barbed whip and teach you a thing or two, Boy.
After a few minutes and the street car did not move; a Dallas Policeman came on board and physically removed me from the street car and took me to a real jail. My father had to come down to Police HDQ and get me out. My father had to listen to a lecture from the police Captain about how to control me and teach me about the ways of the Real Texas. The parting words to my father were, "...We'll be Watching.., You Hear?...".
True story.
Bill thanks for posting the above. I feel the reason that these boxes being kept secret, as I said earlier, was because of the race tone which is found in some of those letters and information and not because of any thing that points to new information on JFK. Dallas tried to rebuild its image after the assassination and to have this public would not be accepted and the money would not come into Dallas during the big building boom of the sixties, seventies and eighties.
You can forward this to Crig Watkins, if you like... I understand he likes a good story.
-
Press Release - February 18, 2008
Fidel Castro's Hand-Drawn Revolution Battle Map in Auction
Dallas, Texas: Fidel Castro's hand-drawn and signed map depicting his unsuccessful July 26, 1953 revolution-launching attack on Cuba's Moncada Barracks (Cuartel Moncada) will be offered in a public auction by Heritage Auction Galleries of Dallas, Texas (www.HA.com), February 21, 2008. The unique map was created for and given to journalist, Bernardo Viera, two days after Castro was freed from 19 months in prison in May 1955.
At the time, Viera was Castro's friend and a fellow member of the Orthodoxo political party. Four years later he became one of the first journalists to publicly reject Castro's support of Communism. He was arrested and exiled to Venezuela.
Now 76 years old and a resident of Miami, Viera kept the remarkable map for over a half-century and has consigned it to the auction.
"This is undoubtedly one of the most extraordinary and historically important documents created by Castro ever to be offered for sale. The map involves the start of the famous 26th of July Movement, the 1953 assault on the Moncada Barracks that eventually brought Castro to power in 1959 when he overthrew the government of Cuban President Fulgencio Batista," said Sandra Palomino, Heritage's director of manuscripts.
The 13 by 8.5 inch folded map is drawn in blue ink and signed by Castro, "A mi brillante amigo Vierita Fidel," (To my brilliant friend, Viera, Fidel).
"I went to see Fidel Castro at his sister Lydia's home the same day he arrived there from prison on May 17, 1955. I asked him how the assault to the Cuartel Moncada had taken place, and Castro then proceeded to draw on a piece of paper while he explained. When he concluded his explanation I asked him to sign the drawing," recalled Viera.
Several days later, Viera left Cuba for Europe where he was a correspondent for Bohemia magazine.
"When I returned to Cuba in 1959 to support Castro I realized that he had left the (Young Orthodox) political party we had all belonged to and he was now associated with the Communist party. After writing against Castro's new ideals, and being arrested for doing so, I left Cuba as an exile in Venezuela," explained Viera.
"The map was reproduced in the first edition of a book, Fidel Castro: Vida y Obra (Fidel Castro: Life and Work) by Luis Conte Aguero, that was published in Havana in 1959. Subsequent editions deleted references to him and the map after Viera's exile," said Palomino.
"A first edition copy of the book accompanies the map in the auction, along with a letter of authentication written and signed by Viera and his daughter, Bernadette Viera-Rausseo."
The Moncada Barracks facility in Santiago de Cuba is now a school and museum, and is frequently visited by foreign dignitaries including Venezuelan President Hugo Chàvez last month.
For additional information, contact Heritage Auction Galleries, (800) 872-6467, or online at www.HA.com.
End
I am not sure what it sold for. If I find out I will pass it along FWIW
-
Well that is MOST disappointing about Keith. He can tell the truth about W on tv but lie about the assassination. Out of fairness however I am willing to bet that he is not permitted to go there. The media is totally controlled on this issue. Whatever personal beliefs a commentator may hold must remain private if he wants to continue on the air.
Dawn
Have you watched Hannity and Colmes? Hannity hand-picked Alan as his liberal partner. You can see how puny he is. When 9/11 comes up, Alan starts off by saying, we all know our govt has nothing to do with 9/11. The only one I believe on that station is Greta Von Susteren. Geraldo has come out several times with "Oswald killed Kennedy." I guess everyone has a price.
Kathy
I know how to stop the gossip and dirt, name calling found on this thread.... I'll just post on this thread AND THAT WILL ABOUT DO IT.
-
Tosh thanks for the information - a lot to take in! But very interesting indeed...
Re: the McAllister, I found some more documents that fit right in with what you say.
This one seems to refer to Morales checking there (he was Zamka wasn't he?) and is dated 1959:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=472954
One of a newspaper article relating to Marco Diaz Lanz:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=977113
The print unfortunately is very small.
And this one is very interesting and mentions a radio station, GP Hemming and LHO.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=5
The following pages after that are also interesting as they appear to relate to Oswald in Miami amongst other things.
Yes That is what I thought. Frank Struges was also know as Frank Forini, "The Blade", as I have stated before to investigators in the mid to late seventies. I talked to Thomas Downing and his Investigators about the Hotel McAllister and a 1963 meeting at Bay Front Park between Roselli, Martino, Sturges, Farrentello, and myself, in 1975 before the HSCA was even formed.
John Martino and I met with John Roselli and Frank around 1962-63, in reference to leaks concerning covert operations and none sanctioned training operations being conducted in south Florida and other places, and how it was putting our operations and operatives in jeopardy. Roselli was very upset at Martino and asked, "How could this happen?". He told Martino to get his act together or there would be trouble. Frank wanted nothing to do with any of it at the time (his quote.."... I'm not CIA and I am not concerned with what you do, just get the damn money to them and leave me out of this..". I was there and I heard this from his own lips. The time line date I remember as being in the spring of 1963 when I had a room at the Mc Allister and just before Rosellie gave me the $15,000 to buy aircraft in Tucson, which later ended up in a bus locker in West Palm Beach and was found by the FBI and CIA and given back to Rosellie sometime after June/July of 1963. There had been many meetings before this particular spring meeting. Point being the Mc Allister was a CIA safe place as well as a transit place for stagging and rotating personal on assignments.
I am not sure about the Damon/Waters. I did know Damon and he was an associate of Warbell. (memory)
As to the radio broadcast. GPH and crew were trying to raise money from the Cubans to finance their, or his, operation in south Florida. The CIA was the one who turned the federal government onto GPH and crew and in time shut them down and arrested some of them. GPH at this time made application to go to work for the CIA and was turned down as being "..a loose canon and not to be trusted..". (documented)
In 1959 and 1960. Larry Allen and John SMITH, and Rex Beardsley, had rooms at the McAllister and ran a gun running operation from there for the CIA. This was before JM/WAVE was formed and before the "Miami Station" was set up and maned.
There is a detailed classified field report still classified which is a detailed assassination team's outline for hit on a leader in the Dominican Republic. This was planned out of the McAllister. A team was sent in and they were successful.
I cannot go into detail because it is still classified, but I have been told it is soon to be released. I will only say it is very detailed and used people from Dallas as the team members. I was not one of them, but I was the pilot. (INFO BEFORE THE FACT)
On another classified CIA operational (CAG) Covert Action Group, from TFW-Section C; concerning kidnapping of forigen leaders is also about to be released. I have been warned to "Back off this". (AGAIN BEFORE THE FACT)
A representitive from the CIA and the Pentagon and I will be meeting in May at Langley to discuss some of these new releases and other documents. (referenced before the fact) No secrets here.
-
Why can’t we admit we made a mistake when we make one?
This is an important question. The main problem is psychological. In most situations, if we make a mistake and this is pointed out, we are willing to be corrected. However, JFK researchers, when publishing their information on the case, they are immediately faced with hostile critics. When mistakes are pointed out, instead of questioning their research, they immediately question the good faith of the critic. The issue then becomes one about the character, history, etc. of the researcher and critic than the original statement. The situation becomes worse because each figure in the debate usually has loyal followers. These people also become involved in what by this time has become a hostile debate. By this stage, it has become psychologically impossible to retract what has already been said.
It is not true that all researchers fall into this category. Larry Hancock, for example, has spent many hours on this forum defending the material published in his book. As far as I can remember, he has never attracted very much criticism (one member did claim he was a CIA disinformation agent but no one took him seriously).
However, Larry relies on documented information. Much of the hostile debate focuses on film and photographic evidence. This material is open to a variety of different interpretations. Personally, I rarely read the threads on this issue. It has no interest to me at all. I am already convinced that there was more than one gunman. It is far more important to find out who was behind the conspiracy than where individual gunman were standing.
The other source of conflict concerns confessions and denials from people who may or may not be connected to the assassination. Some researchers believe characters such as Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, James Files, Judyth Vary Baker, etc. whereas others seriously doubt their testimony. These people are often the source of hostile debate.
A third factor concerns the identity of the individual/group behind the conspiracy to kill JFK. This is usually tied up closely to the political views of the researcher. Therefore, someone who believes the CIA was involved in the conspiracy, are likely to be very hostile to any researcher who claims to provide evidence that Castro organized the killing of JFK.
"...Some researchers believe characters such as Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, James Files, Judyth Vary Baker, etc. whereas others seriously doubt their testimony.
Thank you John for your vote of confidence. I have never supported those stories. I have always tried to reference everthing I have had to say on this subject to the best of my ability. However, I was called a xxxx and foul things were said about me on your forum and I was cursed out on this forum... go back and take a look at some of the curse words used on me.., and it was said that there were no documents as Plumlee referenced. Sometime later, even years later, those references of mine, as to documents, were declassified and released. They, or some, and there are more to come, have now surfaced and proves what I said years ago... recent example the Mc Allister Hotel in Miami, Beckley St. Apartment house, MF's web site ,ect. as to past references. I tried to get to you and others.(just one of many)
However I will just continue to be one of your "Characters", and let my story and basckground be interwoven with the likes of GPH and the lot. Again thanks for the information. I now know where I stand in your thoughts. Been there before.
If you want me off this forum... just say so..... But do not lump me in with those stories.. I am the first to admit that years ago I got sucked into a big mess of special interest people who only wanted to use my background to fit their theories... and a flood of secret emails were sent over the years to defuse me and discredit what I have had to say because it not not fit into their projects or stroked their egos in the right manner. Some of these issues have never been address in my behalf nor corrected when proven I was right ... there were documents which supported my position as I said then, released now. Its no use... You can't overturn a negative or prove one.
As I said IF you want me off you forum just say so. And I'm gone. I will no longer whip a dead hourse.
-
Also found this:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6
The McAllister Hotel that Tosh mentioned before is referred to on page 7
Good work Francesca. Some of those mentioned were also connected to the Dallas Cubans working for the early Alpha-66 group. I knew of this document but was told it was secret and as I had referenced it and said it was secret I was called a xxxx. I have not had time to go over it, but what year was it declassified? Thanks
Hi Tosh, no problem. Have much enjoyed this thread - very interesting. I know it's been diverted but hopefully the moderators won't mind as I was the one who started it and I don't
It says it was 'released with deletions' on 13th May 1998. The rest of the document (20 pages in all) looks interesting but I will read it tomorrow. I must get some sleep now
The Mc Allister Hotel was east of Sloppy Joe's on Flagler Street. That is the place where we were debriefed and given maps and other material for various missions into Cuba. I had a room there in the spring of 1963 (March-April) before the assassination. John Roselli, John Farrentello, Sturges, (Forini the Blade ?) and others would meet there or at Sloppy Joe's and then go over to Bay Front Park (some called the park "Biscanne Park") where we would get maps at the hotel and then go over the maps and information at the park before going on the mission(being out doors was a safe place to talk, etc.)
The Mc Allister was a "contact or "drop place" for sensitive information to get back to JM/Wave HDQ or Miami Station... it was a type of "Cut-Out" or an approved "Limited Hang Out". Another place was an apartment house on Southwest 9th Ter., in Coral Gables as well as another known as The Green Manisons Resort Hotel, across from Eastern Airlines, in Miami Springs. I believe Waters was at all these places as well as the Dark Horse Bar in West Palm. I do not believe I ever saw him there at least under that name. But most all of us used cutout names and aliases.
I was not aware that this document had been declassified. I referenced it some years ago, but was told I was not being trueful because there were no documents that mentioned the Mc Allister Hotel in Miami Florida, or it being used as a safehouse... (reference West Palm FBI interview June of 1963, in reference to gunrunning to the Cuban Rebels)
A few months before the Bay of Pigs, I flew to Maranda outside Tucson to pick up a WWII A-26 fighter bomber and bring it back to Miami for "retro-fitting" for the up comming BoP. That was the aircraft that Crispin and his co-pilot were found in the wreckage in Central America some thirty years or so later. Their bodies were recovered around 2000 I believe. The Mc Allister was at that time used for covert meetings concerning the early planning for the BoP.
Again "The Thigh Bone connect to the hip bone type thing... sorry for the drifting..
P.S. I was just told by a person in Dallas that they have a reference to the Mc Allister in their files. I am not sure if it was found in the new files released by the DA or if it was one of the files found during the remodling of the DPD basement of a few years ago. The Fort Worrth PD also has a file on some of those who claimed they were associated with the Mc Allister Hotel of Miami. Damon is a familiar name to me around 1959-61 and I connect it to the "LaBarr(pho-spel) training camp near Morgan City La. The hotel Dixie was a safehouse for that operation and a military black man by the name of 'Leroy" was kind of like the 'caretaker" of that operation. (Can't remember his last name, but ))
note:
In one field report a photo was shown to a questionable source and another was put beside it with the name Damon written in the margin. (which was not the name of the person in the photo) The source at first said he did not know any of those in the picture. Later he droped the name Damon and connected it with an operation that did not exist. A few days later this source contacted the Miami Station and told a story that Damon was CIA and worked for him in south Florida. A picture was shown this source without the name written in the margin. He ID'ed the photo as Damon. It was not. He was asked to state the name of the operation in south Florida. He could not do that. CI-3 source mention a fake name and the source ID'ed that name as the operation. The source was dismissed at that point.
As to Damon being Waters I doubt that as I recall..., Damon was taller and Damon was a code name at the time for operation DAMON, or DEMON ??? memory; concerning Dominican Security Forces. I did know a Damon or of a Damon but this was years later, and I do not think he was associated with the earlier operations (my speculations)
-
Someone kindly sent me this link to an article in The Fourth Decade magazine about the 'Cozy Eight Apartments' on Beckley:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=7
Is this one of the apartments you meant Tosh?
"...that he was staying at the"Carlton Boarding House in the Oak Cliff"...".
No. The Cozy Eight was near the Beckley rooming house address and I feel someone assumed he rented or mis understood what Oswald said as to having an apartment in that building instead of the rooming house... I think it was across the street but not real sure how close the apartment was to the rooming house. Perhaps Oswald could have used the Cozy Eight as a reference point for his rooming house apartment. (my speculation)
The Cozy Eight was not in the price range for Oswald at the time. The Beckley Street Rooming house was in front of the apartment house which was located to the rear of the rooming house. That was a "safe house " and used by some of the Dallas Cubans associated with A-66 and other groups of the time.
-
Also found this:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6
The McAllister Hotel that Tosh mentioned before is referred to on page 7
Good work Francesca. Some of those mentioned were also connected to the Dallas Cubans working for the early Alpha-66 group. I knew of this document but was told it was secret and as I had referenced it and said it was secret I was called a xxxx. I have not had time to go over it, but what year was it declassified? Thanks
-
I have a meeting scheduled meeting with Billy Sol. Do you have any questions you would like me to asked him?
Tosh, I have a question for him, which I guess is really a question for both of you, since you have said you agree with Billie Sol that LBJ was behind the assassination and it was a case of how business was conducted in Texas. There were apparently planned assassination attempts in Chicago, Tampa, and Miami, in that same month leading up to the Dallas trip. Doesn't this indicate that the assassination was not just a Texas operation? Or were these other plots independent of the one in Dallas?
Ron
I believe they were all ran through the WH and it was a Texas group from beginning to end... I do not care what Lady Bird said... she never knew everything, even when Johnson was a State Senator, and before. She was not like Nancy Regan. Sometimes a place for a hit will dictate itself in spite of where you would like for it to happen. I do know the Mafia was monitoring this and some therein felt thery had to stop it, knowing it would point to them and their Cuban connections. I feel LBJ and his clan was banking on this. Thats a report that has not been released as of yet.
-
Murphy was placed with Dominicana by the Agency and was working as a cut out for the CIA on an Intel operation for the Pentagon and the CIA... The details of this stuff is still Classified. Did you know that? How did you get hold of this info... if I might ask. (not to offend) (William Plumlee)
No offense at all, Tosh.
You're right, the spooks did place Murphy with Dominicana. He unfortunately became mixed up with the likes of Espaillat, Bernardino and the dreaded Johnny Abbes Garcia. I came by all this DR internal stuff as a contact of mine was right in the mix at the time. As you can appreciate, he wants to remain anonymous.
James
James. I do understand... please believe me... I should be doing that. Ha. To late... Im cooked. Is Garcia still alive? I heard he died or was killed a few years back. You know he was an assassin, free lance for hire.. mafia, CIA and higest bidder.... often went into Cuba. I believe. Could of perhaps been in Dallas... but that is speculations on my part.
-
Tosh,
Espaillat had at one time been with Rafael Trujillo's intel group and was mixed up, along with Felix Bernardino in the death of Jesus Galindez and Gerald Lester Murphy - Murphy having previously flown with the Compania Dominicana Aviacion.
Espaillat and Robert Johnson went to Canada and I submit they were responsible for dispatching a French mercenary (explosives expert) to Dallas as part of a back-up plan.
As for a picture of Andreas, is that Sergio? If so, yes.
James
You did it again. Lester was a very close friend of mine. We used to fly the same Twin Beach. (N-1800 or N6800, if I remember right on the N number) I was also going to kidnap Galindez for the agency, but that job went to Murphy. I am not sure if that was really a sanctioned operation or a "special interest" operation. Anyway the gods were with me because Murphy was also killed with Galandez, after they got stateside..., around NY or Jersey I think. Murphy was placed with Dominicana by the Agency and was working as a cut out for the CIA on an Intel operation for the Pentagon and the CIA... The details of this stuff is still Classified. Did you know that? How did you get hold of this info... if I might ask. (not to offend)
In reference to Sergio. Yes... BUT not the Sergio on my flight. Sergio was an Operative name for Andreas. Could you post the picture. I think some are now ready for that. A few years ago I could not get past the 'Gatekeepers" of this forum to even get into any of this. I think it will now lead into something.... I could be wrong... I'm stepping on a thin limb. Do you have any pictures of me at the Dark Hourse or the Twin Spruce of Colorado?
Faure Chomon. Yes. At one time a member of the M26-7 also known as the "Mexico Arms Deal of Pack" for Fidel about 1957 I think (pro-Castro era)
Come on back Chris. Did not mean to hi-jack your thread, but its sort of like the old song "The Hip Bone is Connected to the Thigh Bone..., and the Thigh Bone is Connected to the Leg Bone and....".
-
Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)
Charles A. Waters Jr.
In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.
When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.
Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.
FWIW.
James
James. In that document or do you know or remember, if his mother was of Cuban background? I was told today (awhile ago) there is a DPD file on him. Also, does the term "The Blade" mean anything to you. I have often thought this was in reference to Frank Struges (Forini?? my health is good... but other matters are going off the shelf.... I mean that in the nicest way directed toward me)
Hi Tosh,
I can't recall anything about Waters having Cuban herritage but I am sure you are correct regarding the DPD having a file on him. I was told Waters during that late 1961 period was working with Eduardo Whitehouse, Dallas BOP vet who would later go to the Congo with Rip Robertson.
As for 'The Blade', could that be referring to Arturo Espaillat? As you would know, Fiorini was in that 1961/62 mix with Espaillat, Robert Emmett Johnson, Larry De Joseph, Dick Whatley, etc.
James
James: You always overwhelm me. Thanks much.... your right on. Arturo, I did know. He was a close friend of Sergio's and was at the "Dark Horse Bar" near West Palm as well as the limited hang out at "Sloppy Joes" on Flager St. next to the Mc Alister Hotel across from Bay Front Park, many times. He also worked on the Raider Ship REX with Euduro(bad spelling, forgive. Eddie), I think.., out of Port Everglades and West Palm. He visited the apartment house in Dallas, behind Beckley St., many times. John Stockwell was aware and knew or knew off Whitehorse as we called him(Whitehouse) or horse and was in the Congo. Andreas was another player of the time also was often at the Dark Horse... do you have a picture of Andreas? Whitehorse was sometimes confused with "the big Indian" although he was not a big man. Boy you just kicked me in the butt... Thanks, I needed that. Most of that group were out of TFW, Miami Station at one time..... could have been after the assassination, but not sure.
Whatley was a close associate of Joe Westbrook Rosales and another Chomon? (sp) who at one time was with the M-26-7 before Castro took power. Marquestoe was an informant and got some of those people killed by Batista's police.., security ? (all from memory.. please forgive if I'm all jumbled up on some of this... point being it does ring bells
Thanks Chris for bringing this thread up... I hope I have not diverted it... if so I am really sorry and will in the future try to stay focused on the subject at hand/b]
-
Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this! (Chris Courtwright)
Charles A. Waters Jr.
In 1963, he was approximately 27 years old, 5' 8", 150 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, light complexion.
When in New Orleans he lived at the Lynn Rose Hotel. Later moved to the offices of the Friends of Democratic Cuba in the Balter Building.
Waters would later appear on several committees including the Dallas Citizens for Old Time 4th of July Celebrations.
FWIW.
James
James. In that document or do you know or remember, if his mother was of Cuban background? I was told today (awhile ago) there is a DPD file on him. Also, does the term "The Blade" mean anything to you. I have often thought this was in reference to Frank Struges (Forini?? my health is good... but other matters are going off the shelf.... I mean that in the nicest way directed toward me)
-
Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".
I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.
He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.
Tosh -
It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:
In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and "guerrilla forces" for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in "flying tiger" leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.
Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald's name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.
Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.
Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).
Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!
I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?
Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.
No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).
Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?
I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)
Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this!
Regards,
Chris
Tosh, May I ask when and who told you Waters had gone or was to go to Dallas - or was in Dallas. Thanks.
Chris: I am not sure of the physical description... I just can't really place that for sure and I do not want to mislead.
Peter. I think it was Tracy Barnes or John Martino, perhaps both ??? I am not sure of the time line as to the exact time line. It had to be after the assassination, after we got back to West Palm. It had to be before I was extridited to Denver by Det. Stone of the Denver PD for that $50 ISF check they said I wrote (my wife wrote) but it was never produced in a court of law. (that cost Denver over $1500 to take be back to Denver from Florida on a $50 check that did not exist... documented... I think you and I also documented that when we were in Denver together... remember?)
I was in lock down before the WC was launched; released after it was over... never interviewed, except by the FBI's Scott Warner. I was in lock up at the Denver County Jail for three months and then sent to the Colorado State Reformatory for nine months on a sentance of "Indefinate term in the State Reformatory" sentenced by a Judge Sherman Finsilver (as referenced in FOIA FBI files) who a year or two later became a Federal Judge. The FBI Lab, said they could find "..no checks written by Plumlee...". I feel to this day I was "set-up". I'm sorry I drift.... but I'm still pissed about that, as you know.
-
Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".
I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.
He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.
Tosh -
It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:
In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.
Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.
Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.
Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).
Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!
I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?
Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.
No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).
Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?
I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)
Don't apologize. You are being more than helpful with your recollections. Do you remember if Waters was a Cuban? I have come to suspect that "Charlie Waters" was an alias, and I have not been able to pin down his nationality. Anything else w.r.t. his physical description you could remember also would be great (i.e. was he a huge soldier of fortune type like Hemming, etc.). Thanks again for all your input with this!
Regards,
Chris
I do know that most of those, as well as I, did not care much for SOF's. They did more damage to sanctioned OPS that anyone could comprehend. GPH, as well as others, had NO respect among any of those operatives including the Cubans who were sanctioned by CIA. Because of the rip offs of these "loose canons and guns for hire", groups that ripped off the Cubans and their money which was put up in good faith and given to some of those organizations, caused many hard feelings. Some of these fly by night unauthorized operations were a real pain in the butt and caused us great alarm and even got some of our boys killed.
I think his mother was Cuban, but not sure. He did know Cicel Farnandez and others I can't recall who were associated with Alpha-66 and even one or two with Omega-7... although, we all knew most of those people. Nothing sinister at that point in time.
-
Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".
I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.
He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.
Tosh -
It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:
In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.
Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.
Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.
Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).
Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!
I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?
Thanks again for all the fascinating info. Tosh.
No, I don't know how he got to Dallas. I think it's possible he was already living and working there at the time of the assassination (at least he was there by '64, according to one document I have).
Just to make sure I am tracking: Are you saying that your CIA case officer in Florida told you that Waters was dispatched to Dallas (assuming he was not already there) as part of an "abort" team who failed to stop the assassination?
I am not sure if he told me he was SENT to Dallas or was in Dallas. If he was already in Dallas then he would have been dispatched by MI at Love Field (112th I think) or ONI at Hensely Field. (if he was Navy) I think he was already in Dallas and perhaps I assumed he was "sent" being as I was SENT from Florida.... Its been a long time and as I've said I am recalling from memory. I put him as being associated with the Dallas Cubans on a early gun running operation that had nothing to do with the JFK assassination. That was before JFK about 1961-62 I think. (even as late as the spring of 63 perhaps, sorry)
-
http://www.star-telegram.com/dallas_news/story/486413.html
Posted on Thu, Feb. 21, 2008
Police concerned about order to stop screening
By JACK DOUGLAS Jr.
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
DALLAS -- Security details at Barack Obama's rally Wednesday stopped screening people for weapons at the front gates more than an hour before the Democratic presidential candidate took the stage at Reunion Arena.
The order to put down the metal detectors and stop checking purses and laptop bags came as a surprise to several Dallas police officers who said they believed it was a lapse in security.
Dallas Deputy Police Chief T.W. Lawrence, head of the Police Department's homeland security and special operations divisions, said the order -- apparently made by the U.S. Secret Service -- was meant to speed up the long lines outside and fill the arena's vacant seats before Obama came on.
...
The Secret Service did not return a call from the Star-Telegram seeking comment.
...
Several Dallas police officers said it worried them that the arena was packed with people who got in without even a cursory inspection.
They spoke on condition of anonymity because, they said, the order was made by federal officials who were in charge of security at the event."
Ahem.
Perhaps history repeating itself. Could this be a type of "security probe" before a main event located somewhere else?
I worry about the man as he gathers momentum. I worder if he or his advisors knew about this at the time. I do not think they would have O.K'ed that. If they did then he had better get new advisors. I was told by a DP who was on detail that the feds should not have been in charge.. "..they took charge..". Sounds familiar to me.
I think we need to do everything possible to insure that he and his advisors know about this now. I plan to phone and email his team, as well as write letters to media, and post on blogs and forums to publicize this incident. I'm also considering starting a website to monitor this situation.
...
I don't know what else to do at the moment.
I know Obama's message is all about hope, but this is too alarming to just hope he's safe.
Send him copies of these postings otherwise you will be thought of as an independent alarmist and your fears for him will drop by the wayside. The editors of most major media will not take this story or let their reporters report their gut feelings.... however, they will let them sling mud at Mc Cain and others which are not in the "Group". I feel the Mc Cain mater and the timing of such was set in motion to take away from what was recently found in Dallas and too the trip to Dallas by Obama. I feel forces are moving into place for a hit and the Secret Service knows this.... ,or I should say SOME in the Secret Service know or feel this.. Its time to be very careful. The Powers that be are very feverous at this time.... I mean real jumpy. There are dark clouds on the horizon. If you notice this security breach it has not even been reported by the big boys of the media. They seem to be more interested in what someone didor didn't do with his "Pee..P..".
-
In early 1964, Lenny Bruce spoke about how, in his opinion, falsely depicting a heroic Mrs. Kennedy risking her life to assist a Secret Service agent into the car (this is pre-skull retrieval theory) set an unrealistic standard for all of us.
Lenny's take: She was "hauling ass to save ass."
FYI, on one prior occasion I attempted to reference this important and, in terms of our discussions on this Forum, highly relevant piece of satire by quoting verbatim the line above.
But the Forum's oooooooooh so precious moderati would have none of it.
Rig for heavy rolls!
Careful Charles on posting that three letter word, or the forum's boggy men and boggy ladies will come and get you.
-
Thanks, Tosh.
I think we are saying the same thing: that some of this racist stuff could have been salted in among the relevant JFK stuff over the years so as to provide cover for its not being released.
The most benign interpretation I can come up with is that I think there's some indication that the Dallas cops and DA were very upset when the FBI swooped in and absconded with much of the evidence. Some of it could have been held back sort of passively-aggressively (to teach Hoover, et al, a lesson) until at some point later in the 60s they realized they should have turned it over to the FBI or Warren Commission.
I can also come up with a number of less benign interpretations.
By the way, do you have any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie Waters who operated in and around Dallas in the late 50s and early 60s? I tried to pm you, but that feature is not working for you.
Thanks in advance for all your help with these things!
Regards, Chris
In reference to you question: "... any recollections of anti-Castro soldiers of fortune named Richard Tullis or Charlie..". Waters...".
I think I knew Waters, but not that well, more like our paths cross at one point. Tell me if I'm on the right track. This sticks in my mind for some reason.
He was often hanging out at a Drive In Restaurant in Oak Cliff where girl car hops used roller skets to serve their customers. He was a friend of Jerry Faucher?? (pho sp... Foo'shay) and was at times with the Dallas Cubans on Harlendale and the Cuban gun running operation associated with Frandenz?.., and too was close to a US Marine, Wayne Howard of Dallas and Donald Smith a Navy diver and frogman, also of Dallas ( who live on Travis St, near Knox St., with his sister). Am I thinking about the right Waters? Tullis, Im not sure about.
Tosh -
It sound very much like we are talking about the same Charlie Waters. Here is what I know:
In the Spring of 1961, Waters was interviewed by KBOX news director Ray Carnay and claimed to be in Dallas in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs to be recruiting pilots and “guerrilla forces” for another potential invasion and, in the meantime, for participating in “flying tiger” leafleting harassment raids. He claimed to be working with Antonio de Varona and other anti-Castro exiles, as well as US intelligence.
Waters also was affiliated with the New Orleans based Friends of Democratic Cuba group, whose members also included Guy Bannister, William Dalzell, and Gerard Tujaque (former employer of Oswald). The FDC group had attempted to purchase trucks from the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans in January, 1961 while using Oswald’s name. Dalzell in 1967 testimony to Jim Garrison indicates that Waters may have been the man impersonating Oswald during the transaction. Waters in a 1961 report to the Dallas FBI also claimed to be a fomer Marine who had been in Marine Corps Intelligence with a top security clearance.
Dalzell also told Garrison that Waters had been a significant weapons broker with contacts capable of providing large quantities of automatic weapons. Sergio Arcacha Smith in 1961 told the FBI that Waters had actually taken over the leadership of the FDC for a time after Dalzell had difficulties with local police in New Orleans.
Waters by 1964 was back in Dallas working as a car salesman and reporting to the CIA on anti-Castro activities (and may well have been there at the time of the assassination).
Any further recollections you have would be most helpful!
I believe he is the same person. I am going off memory. At one point (and not having any direct contact with him) I was told this name by one of my case oficers in West Palm Beack Florida ( on an unrelated matter) that he, under code name,was one who went into Dallas to help stop the assassination. (abort) However, I do not believe he was on my flight to Dallas. The names you posted do fit with the people I was associated with and knew rather well.., Arcacha, Varona, ect.... it fits with the time line of the time.... if he was CIA and on that mission do you know how he got to Dallas that day? And too, what "code" name he used for that mission?
-
Having waded through ten pages of mostly bile and invective, one is amazed how much heat can be generated over so philosophical a point, with so little resulting light.
[Also, having read Cliff Varnell’s passionate reasoning over the “bunch” issue for about ten years now, I can only marvel at Cliff’s stamina in dealing with people who presumably have never been fitted for tailor-made clothing. It is to laugh, were one not inclined to weep.]
In the interests of full disclosure, about a decade ago I was a member of Rich Della Rosa’s forum, where I had the chance to deal directly with Gary Mack. On several occasions, he provided me with some research assistance, without knowing the use to which that assistance would be put by me. I was and remain thankful for that aid, yet couldn’t help but notice that his postings at that forum served more to diminish interest in various research avenues than to pique interest in them. Gary had seemed to become a self-anointed traffic warden, pointing the interests of others in directions he alone determined to be worthy, while attempting to steer fellow Forum members away from directions he found untenable.
Fair enough. Those who have done much research and have vast resources at their disposal do their fellows a great service by pointing out the dead ends, blind alleys and cul de sacs that bedevil us all. Fraudulence should be exposed, where it can be demonstrated, for the common good.
Yet, it became apparent to my satisfaction – on the topic of John Armstrong’s research – that Gary Mack was alleging shoddiness and fraud where it couldn’t be demonstrated, and had no basis upon which to make certain of his allegations. When confronted on that forum with taped and filmed interviews conducted by Armstrong with various persons, Gary Mack and his then-partner Dave Perry indulged in much “woulda-coulda-mighta” reasoning to rebut Armstrong’s findings, yet without the slightest evidence. It was nothing more than mere spit-balling various ideas and conjectures to ridicule Armstrong. [Rather like the in-person smearing and sliming by Mack and Perry of people presented by Jim Marrs, about which one can read much. What an odd way for researchers to comport themselves.]
I argued strongly that one needn’t accept Armstrong’s hypothesis of two Oswalds in order to learn much from the work Armstrong had done, dealing as it did with first person interviews and parsing original documents, rather than the final documentary product provided for consumption by the Commission and, hence, by us. It seemed reasonable to me that we could learn much from Armstrong’s efforts, without necessarily embracing his conclusions, and that if Armstrong had indulged in any chicanery in his work, we were clever enough - collectively - to detect it. [Full disclosure: I find Armstrong informative, but unpersuasive on his key thesis.]
I always thought Gary’s responses were disproportionate to the point of being nearly hysterical. At some point about this time, Gary was promoted at the 6th Floor Exhibit [not museum, please!] and ceased to post at that forum or elsewhere. More’s the pity, because his subsequent use of proxies and surrogates hasn’t served anyone well, least of all himself.
Now, to the point at hand. I cannot fathom why there has been so much umbrage over what Mack has said on this occasion.
"Virtually all the hard evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald."
Why, yes it does. In fact, I would remove the word “virtually.”
Gary Mack should not be pilloried for stating the obvious, but we should leave open the option to recall him for further questioning once we’ve investigated the hard evidence.
There was a weapon found in the TSBD that was uniformly and consistently identified as a Mauser – by all DPD personnel and the Dallas DA – for a full day. [News accounts of Enfields and other rifles cannot be blamed upon DPD unless we can demonstrate DPD personnel were responsible for those misstatements.]
Upon FBI’s alleged discovery that Oswald had mail-ordered a Mannlicher Carcano rifle of a different caliber, it was now alleged that all DPD personnel and the Dallas DA had misidentified the weapon for a full day. This would be a remarkably stupid error for all involved to commit, given that the MC was clearly stamped, thereby alerting anyone who held it that it was not a Mauser.
At this point, we have several options. One of the following must be true. 1) More than one rifle was found, but the Mauser was made to evaporate; 2) Only a Mauser was found, but a MC rifle was substituted and all subsequent evidence and testimony was tailored to support that fabrication; or, 3) everyone on the DPD payroll who came into contact with the rifle was a blind idiot. From all I’ve read of his comments, Gary Mack seems to prefer the final option and discourages people from giving too much consideration to the two prior options. If I have misstated his position, I’m sure he will dispatch a minion to clarify. [Any and all private correspondence from Mack will be reproduced here, thereby negating any “no posting” rules that presumably apply to him.]
There was a partial palm print found on the rifle that could be traced to Lee Harvey Oswald.
This would certainly constitute hard evidence of Oswald having at least handled the rifle, if not necessarily owned it. However, like all other “hard” evidence in this crime, it is left open to question for a variety of reasons.
When the rifle was sent to FBI on the night of 11/22/63, the Bureau found no prints identifiable as Oswald’s. In fact, in the area where the partial print was allegedly discovered, FBI was unable to locate any evidence that it had been dusted or that tape had been applied to either lift or preserve the print.
Since the rifle was transferred from DPD to FBI possession not long before midnight on 11/22/63, if DPD located a partial palm print on the rifle, it must have transpired at some prior point in time. The man in charge of seeking those prints was Lt. Day, who testified to the WC that he had stopped working on the rifle at about 8 pm because he’d been told to go no further by Chief Curry, and also told the FBI that he had received those orders from Curry at about midnight. Needless to say, both accounts cannot be true, but then very little of what Lt. Day had to say could be easily mistaken for what a reasonable mind would think “true.”
Lt. Day was adamant that he had found partial a latent partial palm print on the underside of the rifle, had dusted the area and was about to photograph and tape it when he was ordered to stop the process. It was only once the rifle was returned to DPD, after Oswald’s death, that the partial palm print was first disclosed. And yet, Day maintained in his WC testimony that a print had been located on the night of the assassination and that he had told both Chief Curry and Captain Fritz the print belonged to Oswald. The Commission provided no clues as to how it is possible to definitively identify a print that was never lifted by comparing it to the exemplar provided by Oswald upon his arrest.
Despite this astonishing development, Curry refrained from advising the press that DPD had all but put the rifle into Oswald’s hands. [Oddly, a half dozen years later Curry penned a book in which he famously claimed: "We never could place Oswald in that window with a gun in his hand." That seems to repudiate Lt. Day’s tale in its entirety.] Whilst making a number of pronouncements to the press – true and untrue – about what DPD had found, there would be no mention of the latent partial palm print until after FBI denied such a possibility, and until after Oswald was dead. In point of fact, NBC’s Dallas affiliate WBAP TV announced: "No fingerprints on it-sent to FBI here in Washington for analysis."
We are confronted with a variety of possibilities.
1) That DPD found no such print on the night of the assassination, which explains why FBI found no such print nor even evidence that such a print had been sought, let alone found, on a portion of the rifle that couldn’t be tested without first disassembling it. Once Oswald was dead, facing mounting pressure to prove that the man who had just died in DPD custody was the assassin, the fingerprint evidence was manufactured. In order to bolster the bona fides of this counterfeit evidence, statements and testimony by those involved were tailored for the purpose, but nevertheless remained contradictory on key points.
2) That despite having taken FBI courses on the protocols of processing fingerprints, Lt.. Day managed to observe those protocols in all areas of processing the weapon except the area that yielded the “now you see it, now you don’t” print.
3) That DPD found a print, identified it as belonging to Oswald, yet refrained from mentioning this key salient fact to the FBI when transferring the weapon to the Bureau, and failed to mention it to the press until after Oswald was dead; yet FBI was so incompetent that it couldn’t find the print, or even any trace it had ever existed, been sought or been lifted by DPD.
I do not know where Gary Mack stands on this piece of hard evidence, but given its preposterously absurd nature, I think it is safe to declare that it is moreso evidence of bungling, at a minimum, or fraud, at a maximum, than it is evidence of Oswald’s guilt, irrespective of the intentions of those involved.
There were shells located in the purported sniper’s nest on the 6th floor.
This would tend to indicate, but does not prove, that shots were fired from there. Unfortunately, we have two different DPD evidence manifests, identical in all respects save one: the first such manifest indicates the discovery of only two shells, whereas a subsequent manifest discloses three shells.
Again, we have multiple options from which to choose. 1) Only two shells were found, but when it was subsequently determined that two shots couldn’t account for all the damage done – hence, a second gunman firing from elsewhere – the paperwork was forged to include a third shell and bolster the case against a single gunman; 2) Three shells were found, but one was retained by Captain Fritz – without advising FBI that he was doing so – in order to locate the Dallas firearms dealers who sold such ammunition; or, 3) DPD personnel were somehow incapable of telling the difference between two and three.
From what I’ve read of his comments, including his own arguments to my posts over the years, Gary Mack is inclined to prefer option number 2. He contends Captain Fritz withheld the third shell in order to locate the Dallas gun dealer who sold the ammunition to Oswald.
I would be friendlier to Gary’s reading of this evidence were there the slightest indication in any of the extent record that: 1) Fritz advised FBI he was withholding a third shell, which is a rather inexplicable omission from so seasoned a homicide detective; 2) Fritz and his men undertook any demonstrable effort to locate such a gun dealer, a contention for which there is no evidence; 3) There was any DPD documentation that the third shell had been dusted for prints while in DPD custody, which seems a most fundamental piece of police detection. Gary discourages people from giving too much consideration to what I find the likelier option, #1. But then, Gary’s idea of what constitutes probative evidence is remarkably elastic when it serves his purpose.
There was a bullet found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital that was tied by ballistics to the Mannlicher Carcano allegedly found at the TSBD.
This piece of evidence seems remarkably probative. Unless one, again, bothers oneself to actually examine the provenance of the bullet and what is offered to explain its appearance there, and the feats ascribed to it, despite it being so inexplicably intact.
To spare all here the book-length arguments that have been and could be written about this piece of evidence, let’s simply focus upon the single key item that impeaches its provenance.
The bullet was handled by Parkland Hospital orderly Darrell Tomlinson and PH security chief O. P. Wright. It is often neglected in recounting the story that Wright was a former police officer and well familiar with firearms, itself a rather telling omission, for in the absence of such information, Wright might be misconstrued as just a citizen unfamiliar with such matters. The extent record includes an FBI allegation that both had been shown the bullet by the Bureau, and had acknowledged that while they couldn’t definitively identify the bullet to the exclusion of all others, it seemed to be the one they had handled on 11/22/63.
Yet the Bureau agent who allegedly showed them this bullet denies having done so, or ever even having said bullet in his possession. And both men, to varying degrees, deny that the bullet in evidence is the one they handled on the day in question, with Wright – the more familiar with such matters - being the more outspoken on the topic. Given so shoddy a pedigree, and further given evidence of FBI perfidy in trying to falsely establish that pedigree, and given that any substitution that might have taken place must have transpired while the bullet was in the possession of federal government agencies, this is not evidence against Oswald so much as it is evidence of tainting the legal record to falsely implicate Oswald. [Whatever quibbles Gary Mack might have with this point should be addressed to his colleague Tink Thompson, who has been dogged in at least this aspect of the case.]
And so it goes. Other equally damnable “hard evidence” includes the mail order forms for the weapons purportedly ordered by Oswald; the information and evidence which should exist, but doesn’t, regarding his use of post office box[es]; the existence and provenance of the backyard photographs; the existence and provenance of various pieces of ID that were self-defeatingly obvious forgeries, et al.
Gary Mack is right to claim all the hard evidence points to Oswald. Where we are wrong by inferring incorrectly, and where Gary Mack is wrong by omitting the key detail, is this: no single piece of “hard evidence” withstands the slightest scrutiny. It cannot do so without militating more for fabrication, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of evidence, in a pattern of concerted effort to falsely accuse Oswald, than it does for Oswald’s guilt.
All of this has been more than self-evident since September of 1964, if not earlier, and hasn’t been resolved by the WC, the HSCA, the ARRB or any other governmental effort. That is why we are still here. It would be helpful if Gary Mack’s pronouncements to the media were to include a caveat that, while all the hard evidence points to Oswald’s sole guilt, there is good reason to question the provenance of each such piece of hard evidence, and the motives of those who have provided it.
RCD
Yours above, should be read by everyone concerned with the 22 Nov. 1963 assassination.
H.J. Dean
I too second that..., old man. We would do well to focus on those points and go from there.
Two girls at the photo studio..., "Be still honey, hes gonna focus..... bow'fuss?
-
http://www.star-telegram.com/dallas_news/story/486413.html
Posted on Thu, Feb. 21, 2008
Police concerned about order to stop screening
By JACK DOUGLAS Jr.
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
DALLAS -- Security details at Barack Obama's rally Wednesday stopped screening people for weapons at the front gates more than an hour before the Democratic presidential candidate took the stage at Reunion Arena.
The order to put down the metal detectors and stop checking purses and laptop bags came as a surprise to several Dallas police officers who said they believed it was a lapse in security.
Dallas Deputy Police Chief T.W. Lawrence, head of the Police Department's homeland security and special operations divisions, said the order -- apparently made by the U.S. Secret Service -- was meant to speed up the long lines outside and fill the arena's vacant seats before Obama came on.
...
The Secret Service did not return a call from the Star-Telegram seeking comment.
...
Several Dallas police officers said it worried them that the arena was packed with people who got in without even a cursory inspection.
They spoke on condition of anonymity because, they said, the order was made by federal officials who were in charge of security at the event."
Ahem.
Perhaps history repeating itself. Could this be a type of "security probe" before a main event located somewhere else?
I worry about the man as he gathers momentum. I worder if he or his advisors knew about this at the time. I do not think they would have O.K'ed that. If they did then he had better get new advisors. I was told by a DP who was on detail that the feds should not have been in charge.. "..they took charge..". Sounds familiar to me.
-
Since the alleged ownership of CE 139 by Lee Harvey Oswald is generating some extremely warranted interest, I think all would benefit from reading the following passages from And We Are All Mortal: New Evidence and Analysis in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy, by George Michael Evica (1978; University of Hartford Press).
Chapter One, pages 7-10
Did Oswald Ever Possess Any Rifle?
Marina Oswald was the [Warren] Commission’s sole witness cited for the Report’s conclusions that Oswald possessed a rifle before the alleged attack on General Edwin Walker and that the alleged rifle was moved from Dallas to New Orleans and from New Orleans to Irving, Texas. The Commission’s own records help to establish that no piece of the Oswalds’ luggage or any other container used in moving the Oswalds was large enough to hold the Commission’s disassembled rifle.
…
The Commission attempted to prove that a rifle was stored in the Paine’s garage prior to the assassination: it failed. Marina Oswald testified to the Commission that she had entered the Paine’s cluttered garage to look for parts to a baby crib; lifting a corner of a folded blanket on the floor, she said she saw part of a rifle stock (in another version of this incident Marina decided it was the barrel she had seen). But Marina’s testimony was not corroborated; she could not distinguish either between kinds of rifles or between kinds of pieces (rifles and shot-guns, for example) … When shown a rifle on November 22nd, at about 9:00 p.m., she was unable to identify it:
“Marina Oswald advised an Agent of this Bureau on November 22, 1963, that she had been shown a rifle at the Dallas Police Department … She advised that she was unable to identify it positively as the same rifle kept in the garage at [the] Paine residence … ”
Three months after the assassination, Marina’s memory improved so that on February 6th, 1964, when shown what the Commission alleged to be the same rifle, she said, “This is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald.” But Sunday, September 6th, 1964 … the following odd exchange occurred:
Senator Russell: Did you testify that you thought this [CE 139] was Lee’s rifle that was shown to you?
Marina (translation): No – I’m sorry. As far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had.
Translator (Peter Gregory, an important member of the Dallas/Ft. Worth White Russian community) in English: Yes; That’s right.
Senator Russell: That’s all I asked her. That’s just exactly what I asked her.
Translator (in English): Yes, that’s right.
Most crucially, Marina’s testimony on the alleged assassination weapon was coached, altered, or corroborated by individuals associated with Jack Ruby, the Great Southwest Corporation, George de Mohrenschildt (who admitted consulting with a Dallas C.I.A. agent concerning Oswald), and two of de Mohrenschildt’s associates (the co-founders of a C.I.A.-subsidized Russian Orthodox church in Dallas). The F.B.I. reported that a Marina Oswald interview had taken place on February 18th, 1964, in the office of attorney William A. McKenzie, who had been recently associated with the law firm representing both the Great Southwest Corporation (owned by the Murchisons’ lawyers, the Bedford Wynne family, and the Rockefellers) and George de Mohrenschildt. The F.B.I. reported that:
“Marina said to her knowledge Oswald had only one rifle and that rifle is the one he maintained in the Paine Garage.”
But Mrs. Declan Ford (another member of the White Russian émigré group) admitted:
“… Mr. McKenzie didn’t know what they would talk about but he advised her [Marina], ‘They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used … ’”
Peter Dale Scott found this involvement of the intelligence-oriented Russian émigré group in the transmission of Marina’s testimony ominous enough to suggest a House Select Committee investigation, pointing out that Peter Gregory altered Marina’s testimony on the rifle and supplied other details which were corroborated by Marina’s second interpreter – who, with Gregory, helped found an Agency-supported Orthodox parish. Details of Marina’s coached and altered testimony were echoed in statements given the F.B.I. by Charles Camplen and James F. Daley, employees of the Great Southwest Corporation.
William A. McKenzie, in whose office the February 18, 1964 Marina Oswald interview as recorded, and who Mrs. Declan Ford asserted had supplied Marina with the Line “ … there was one gun that was used,” had resigned from the Wynne family law firm to represent Marina Oswald. McKenzie had been a law partner of attorney Bernard Wynne whose law firm represented the Wynne/Murchison/Rockefeller Great Southwest Corporation – at whose motel Marina Oswald was hidden by the Secret Service.
While acting as Marina’s lawyer, McKenzie was associated with attorney Peter White, who in 1954 arranged for the dismissal of charges against Jack Ruby. The Warren Commission ignored the fact that Peter White’s name, address, and phone number all appeared in Jack Ruby’s notebook – Peter White, the office mate of Marina Oswald’s attorney and representative – though the Commission questioned Ruby’s roommate George Senator about other entries in that same notebook.
With evidence available of coached and altered Marina Oswald testimony on the very existence of a weapon and on that weapon’s characteristics, directly traceable to individuals associated with an organized crime figure (Jack Ruby) and with the C.I.A. (George de Mohrenschildt), Marina’s uncorroborated testimony on a “rifle” must remain dubious and suspect. (emphasis added by Drago)
Good points all. Ruth Paine's "He keeps it in the garage." - has got to be one of the fishiest things said on a very fishy day. Also, no doubt the rifle got into TSBD that day (or earlier) but how? Not with LHO.
Mc Wallace and two others put or left the rifle there. Oswald never touched it. IMO.., and too I do have supporting evidence... but I will be like everybody else I will not come forward with it at this time. I think I will however give it tothe Dallas DA if this matter goes forward and he does not become contaminated.
Dallas County DA's office finds cache of JFK memorabilia
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by William Plumlee
Francesca:
I am not sure if my memory serves me right on this. I am working off recall as to Capehart; so if this does not fit in the record then please forgive. I have a "cobweb" of old memories. My motive is to try and help if I can.
There is a report (perhaps still classified) from the Santiago, Chile, CIA Station Chief (Harry Huckser) concerning one Charlie Capehart also known as "Blue" or "Blu", who was associated with special operations of a covert nature (not sure of the dates, (I can't remember for sure and will leave this blank for now) At one point he worked as a "Roughneck" in the oil and gas sector in the USA when he was "on the Farm" ( The Farm was a term used when an operative was not assigned to any operations at the time; another term used was "Free-Agent". Sometimes one could be, "at the Farm, or on the farm", for years before he was contracted out to a sanction operation.
(memory) At one point he was assigned to the "Dominican Desk" of the WH Div. of the TFW (Task Force-W) out of Miami Station. and was associated with Lester Murphy and others. Just what his assignment was I do not know. I was surprised his name popped up here. I will try to find out more on him and share with you. It was rumored he was in Dallas as a "**Spotter" I can not confirm that. (** Congress Thomas Downing, 1976) I can not recall at this time others who were associated with that operation who had connections to Capehart. Cut-Out names were used during those operations associated with TFW. Lester Murphy was "free lansing", contract employee.., for the Agency at tht tiime, I think.
On another note as to "Zamba". I was one of six pilots used in those operation to transport covert operatives into position on sensitive missions. As to Zamba being Morales? I can not say for sure. I would have to check the timeline for Morales. I feel this might have been a little before Morales. JM/WAVE was not yet formed and Miami Station was still understaffed. (impression)