William Plumlee

LHO had two apts. "the crazy doorway" entrance' on Elsbeth St, 605 or 602 I think ( from memory) also mentioned on this Forum years ago. Ask Jim Marrs and Peter Lemkin about that apt. I took Jim Marrs to both of these apt, Becklet and Elsbeth, also Nigel Turner and Oliver Stone's people were taken there by me.. The apt behind the Beckley St address LHO visited the Cubans many times and I was there ( the back building directly behind Beckley). My initals were carved in a draining board at that rear apt. and as of 1991 were still there "WRP" as confirmed by the owners. The two Cubans who rented that apt were thrown out because of the messes they made and all the late night visitors and the carved WRP on the draining board. This was also told to the Church Com and Congressman Tomas Downing in 1975 before the HSCA was formed...... I was attacked at the time I post most of this information and it went nowhere...... I was just trying to help researchers.... that was information before the fact... given to law enforcement and later to this forum and its members... it did not happen I was told by many on this forum and I was called a fabricator and xxxx.... This is "Background Information for you I hope it helps in some way. There is a lot the research community does not know about all that... Harlendale, Franandez (pho sp) and those associated with Alpha-66 and Omega-7 of Miami... but what do I know.... I read about it in 1932 in The Dallas times Hearld in comic section.

Thanks for the post Tosh and the information. Can you expand any on who this Franandez was? I have not heard the name before.

They had an apartment not far from "Sunset" High School in Oak Cliff. It was said he and others were associated with Omega-7 as well as A-66. They were close with the group who had the Harlendale house also in Oak Clif. Farnandez had rented an apartment at 602 Elsbeth a few months before LHO rented apartment 605 in the same bldg. (from memory, but references also found in a DPD investigation report of 1971... Reference Jay Harrison... Texas Researcher 6 Vol of background on this event and other documented evidence Referenced in Jay's Files as Omega -7, Dallas. If some who are out there and have Jay's files... I too have copies of these files and will make them public at the right time. hang in there lady....

I think the following relates to SOME, who see thenselves as researchers into the Assassination of JFK....MYSELF included:

(With Permission)

A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to.

Laurence J. Peter

A man convinced against his will is not convinced.

Laurence J. Peter

A man doesn't know what he knows until he knows what he doesn't know.

Laurence J. Peter

A pessimist is a man who looks both ways when he crosses the street.

Laurence J. Peter

Against logic there is no armor like ignorance.

Laurence J. Peter

America is a country that doesn't know where it is going but is determined to set a speed record getting there.

Laurence J. Peter

America is a land of taxation that was founded to avoid taxation.

Laurence J. Peter

An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today. Laurence J. Peter

An intelligence test sometimes shows a man how smart he would have been not to have taken it.

Laurence J. Peter

As a matter of fact is an expression that precedes many an expression that isn't. Laurence J. Peter

Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status.

Laurence J. Peter

Committees have become so important nowadays that subcommittees have to be appointed to do the work.

Laurence J. Peter

Competence, like truth, beauty, and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder.

Laurence J. Peter

Democracy is a process by which people are free to choose the man who will get the blame. Laurence J. Peter

Don't believe in miracles - depend on them.

Laurence J. Peter

Early to bed, early to rise, work like hell, and advertise. Laurence J. Peter

Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices. Laurence J. Peter

Equal opportunity means everyone will have a fair chance at being incompetent. Laurence J. Peter

Every girl should use what Mother Nature gave her before Father Time takes it away. Laurence J. Peter

Everyone rises to their level of incompetence. Laurence J. Peter

Expert: a man who makes three correct guesses consecutively. Laurence J. Peter

Fortune knocks but once, but misfortune has much more patience.

Laurence J. Peter

Going to church doesn't make you any more a Christian than going to the garage makes you a car. Laurence J. Peter

Heredity is what sets the parents of a teenager wondering about each other.

Laurence J. Peter

If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is the significance of a clean desk? Laurence J. Peter

If two wrongs don't make a right, try three. Laurence J. Peter

If you don't know where you're going, you will probably end up somewhere else. Laurence J. Peter

In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.

Laurence J. Peter

It's better to have loved and lost than to have to do forty pounds of laundry a week.

Laurence J. Peter

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Laurence J. Peter

Make three correct guesses consecutively and you will establish a reputation as an expert. Laurence J. Peter

Men now monopolize the upper levels... depriving women of their rightful share of opportunities for incompetence.

Laurence J. Peter

Nobody can be perfect unless he admits his faults, but if he has faults how can he be perfect? Laurence J. Peter

Originality is the fine art of remembering what you hear but forgetting where you heard it. Laurence J. Peter

Psychiatry enables us to correct our faults by confessing our parents' shortcomings.

Laurence J. Peter

Slump, and the world slumps with you. Push, and you push alone.

Laurence J. Peter

Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them.

Laurence J. Peter

Speak when you are angry - and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret. Laurence J. Peter *****

elevision has changed the American child from an irresistible force to an immovable object.

Laurence J. Peter

The great question is not whether you have failed, but whether you are content with failure. Laurence J. Peter ***

The man who says he is willing to meet you halfway is usually a poor judge of distance.

Laurence J. Peter ***

The seaman tells stories of winds, the ploughman of bulls; the soldier details his wounds, the shepherd his sheep.

Laurence J. Peter ****

There are two kinds of egotists: Those who admit it, and the rest of us. Laurence J. Peter

There are two kinds of failures: those who thought and never did, and those who did and never thought. Laurence J. Peter

When in doubt or danger, run in circles, scream and shout.

Laurence J. Peter

Work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence.

Laurence J. Peter

You can always tell a real friend: when you've made a fool of yourself he doesn't feel you've done a permanent job.

Laurence J. Peter

And the Drum roll.....:

One should respect public opinion insofar as is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny. **** Bertrand Russell

I used the word XXX awhile ago in another post. "...would you like to take the bullit out of my AXXX" and got edited... However the following degrades me and all forum members and was posted on this Forum in an attempt to indirectly call me a xxxx and too, to degrade me as an untruthful person. FWIW

...."Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......".

I see this as a double standard. And I believe this is why good researchers who used to be on this forum have left and refuse to post their research and information.

Can you really be surprised if some of the members here are a little hostile, you did "die" in a plane crash a few months back. Remember?

No not really surprised. However did you see the Police Reports of the two stolden computers and the report of one being found in a Pawn shop in ABQ NM? Did you see the police report of the broken door and windows to gain entry to my home in NM while I was flying a trip?.. No you did not. It is easier to just say I'm a nut and not look or check what I say. I did not think you were that shallow. I will post what I think is true and I will post any documentation I obtain to back up what I say about the JFK.... If you do not want that information then do not read my post..... I mentioned double standard.. and referenced... had nothing to do with my "FAKED" death as you call it.... Is that your opinion.?.. or do you know something I do not?... if so post your referfences or shut up and let me get on with trying to help those who want my input and feed back or things I do know and played a part in... I mean this in the most nicest way. Thank you for you reply

I do not care about hostile people I have being dealing with those types ever since I have been on this Forum... Yoou miss the reason I post on this forum... I was ask by many to come back on this forum... reluctantly I did. And I have tried for hours and days to document and reference everything I have said. Now can we move on and do some research on the JFK assassination... I know where I am going with these post references... Do You?

I used the word XXX awhile ago in another post. "...would you like to take the bullit out of my AXXX" and got edited... However the following degrades me and all forum members and was posted on this Forum in an attempt to indirectly call me a xxxx and too, to degrade me as an untruthful person. FWIW

...."Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......".

I see this as a double standard. And I believe this is why good researchers who used to be on this forum have left and refuse to post their research and information.

Edited by moderator for language.

Sir you may say its over... BUT I do not. You have indirecly called me a xxxx.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=73427&relPageId=3

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=73427&relPageId=2

Notice: Stanton arrest in Oct 1951 #26-14024 Oct 1951 ITSA

Notice: Plumlee arrest in Feb 1952 #26-157654 June 1952 ITSA two deferent people.... two different case numbers.., different times

It was said this was one case Santon was with Plumlee, Farrentello, and Huckby. However there are two different file, case numbers and Stanton had nothing to do with the plumlee case. It was infered I was not being truthful.

I ask. Was this a mistake? Or was this intentional to discredit me?

When I called the source of this posting I was told he did not have the time to wade through all the post and proceded to counsel me.

On another point: It was stated that I had not been on 4 years federal probation and the documents did not prove I was.

How could this source know? ITS all blacked out.... this is different than being SEALED by Court Order. Please explain.

This is an example of how dis-information is started and spread on this forum as to another example of dis information I posted earlier.

Again I ask. Was this intentional?

P.S. if you can't put the questions side by sidde in the link provided then cut and paste them into the URL ?

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have.

Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953.

In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army.

My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s.

Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service).

You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously.

Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole.

I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me.

Again Have you ever heard of Military Police action at the DMZ? after the Peace talks? War was over but the shooting had not stoped for years later. This is redicules trying to reason with you and a total waste of my time... Move along son theres nothing to see here. And too, Leave my air alone...

Would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX

Edited by moderator for langauge.

Hope the link below posted. This might answer your questions

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence.

If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut and past into iUrl)

June 5, 1954 shot in the butt

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence.

If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut and past into iUrl)

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have.

Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953.

In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army.

My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s.

Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service).

You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously.

Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole.

I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...rt=#entry134311 (cut past into url)

Well there it is: "Cpl" at age 18. That should shut some mouths.

Dawn, not sure who you should shut their mouths, but for the record, I never doubted anything but the legality of a 14 year old being able to enlist. I looked into it, and found it was possible to do at that age into NG and Army Reserves. Still a convcern to me personally... but no longer a legal concern.

Opps, I just looked at this document again and realized that Tosh had "cpl" status in 53, so that makes him 16!!

Amazing! Now just how did he accomplish THAT???

Maybe the same way this guy probably did? Earned the stripes over a one or two year period? (post from google groups)

In the late '40's I was a 16 year old corporal in the Texas National

Guard. We got paid either every other month or every quarter, I forget

which now. But, to make a point about the economic impact of the guard

on the town we were paid once in silver dollars and the battery made all

of its local purchases with silver dollars. Our little town had a _lot_

of silver dollars floating around for a while.

One of the interesting byproducts of what was essentially a PR gimmick

was that it brought us a whole bunch of new enlistments.

It appears not to be entirely unheard of... though this guy did it in the NG, Tosh in the Reserves...

I also checked out his enlistment authority given on the document as "NGR 25-1". It is some type of National Guard and Army Reserves Reg. Haven't found the wording of it yet... but at a guess, I'd say it was the Reg allowing 14 years to sign up.

Thats nice doing a little leg work. I'll try to help you.

I would like any background information on Robert Clayton Buick or (Black) I have recently received information from a reliable source that he was in prison with John Roselli in 1971 or there abouts and Roselli told him as well as the FBI and Warden details about Dallas. The information was "CLASIFIED"... The details within the report was how Rosellie got to Dallas from Florida and Roselli's knowledge about an 'Abort Team' from Military Intel. I was told that he gave notarized statements to that effect to the FBI and the Warden of the prison around 71-72. At this point it is third party hear say, but I was told some of his statements appear in two books. Any help would be appreciated.

"Riding the Tiger's Back" and Dick Russell's "TMWKTM" have interesting accounts of RCB.

Here's the Ed Forum subject link:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...&pid=130118

And some others:

http://www.namebase.org/xbru/Robert-Clayton-Buick.html

http://www.heidelberggraphics.com/Heidelbe...0back%20rev.htm

http://www.robertclaytonbuick.com/

BK

Thanks Bill, I do appreciate the respond... saves me a little leg work....

I would like any background information on Robert Clayton Buick or (Black) I have recently received information from a reliable source that he was in prison with John Roselli in 1971 or there abouts and Roselli told him as well as the FBI and Warden details about Dallas. The information was "CLASIFIED"... The details within the report was how Rosellie got to Dallas from Florida and Roselli's knowledge about an 'Abort Team' from Military Intel. I was told that he gave notarized statements to that effect to the FBI and the Warden of the prison around 71-72. At this point it is third party hear say, but I was told some of his statements appear in two books. Any help would be appreciated.

In 1994 James Files provided this picture of himself and an unidentified man to Bob Vernon after conducting the on camera interview, that was later released as "Confession of an Assassin" by MPI Home video. James Files provided this picture after Vernon asked him if he still had pictures of himself from 1963.

Files went to his storage locker and pulled out the picture. Vernon was pleased and expressed his appreciation. He also asked: Who is the other guy? Files replied that he did not want to go in that. However Vernon asked why not and pressed on a little bit. Files eventually said something like: "Off the record, that's the guy who killed Tippit." I am not sure if Files intended Bob Vernon to publish that information on the Internet, frankly I don't think so, but since he has, the picture has been on the website www.jfkmurdersolved.com long before I came on the scene, and long before I had ever heard of James Files. But naturally the identity of this mystery man has intrigued me for years, ever since I first saw it. Also, since the picture shows James Files and a real man, I wondered why the man, or any of his relatives or friends, have never come forward to deny the allegation. Surely there must have been people who have recognized him, if not the man himself. And if he would not be the man who killed officer Tippit, you would expect people to come forward to deny the allegation, especially if it could be easily proven that James Files wasn't telling the truth. I have always thought that this circumstance alone adds weight to the veracity of James Files.

I have cracked my brains for years on who it could be. I have compiled lists of candidates, mob guys, undercover agents, cuban exiles, etcetera, most of which I could cancel out quickly because there are known pictures of most candidates and they did not resemble the man in the picture. I have asked around, and was sent on some wild goose chases, false leads and dead end roads.

Based on the information from James Files, http://jfkmurdersolved.com/tip.htm , we are looking for a tall caucasian man that

- was born and raised in America, and is maybe still alive.

- was from Chicago, as he was an acquaintance of James Files.

- was 25 to 35 years of age in 1963 (now 70 to 80 years of age).

- has no widely known connection to the Kennedy assassination.

- was in Dallas 11/22/1963

- was probably not called for the Warren Commision or the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

- was an undercover intelligence agent.

- worked for David Atlee Phillips.

- knew Lee Harvey Oswald, otherwise he could not have been sent to kill him.

- may have had a similar training as Lee Harvey Oswald

_________________________________

FWIW,

Seems to be missing a front tooth and to have really bad teeth. See enlarged photo in Duncan's post #10, too.

--Thomas

_________________________________

I believe in Harvey and Lee, that there were at least 2 men sharing the identity of Lee Harvey Oswald. Could this photo of the man on the right be one of Lee Oswald? I'll state right away that he does not look like Donald O. Norton -- his nose is too slim. OK. Could he be the killer of J.D. Tippit? Witnesses describe LHO as the killer -- and I believe Lee killed Tippit. Are we looking at the birth Oswald? He seems to have a discolored tooth, like Lee had.

I believe Harvey was Russian, trained in English for 3 years. Robert Oswald said about his "brother" (paraphrase), "I was surprised at how much hair [Harvey] lost!" I guess that statement was to convince family, friends and acquaintances that Harvey had changed physically while in Russia.

Then, again, is this actually J.D. Tippit himself?

Kathy

The guy on the right looks a good older version of http://home.wi.rr.com/harveyandlee/Tooth/Tooth.htm

For what its worth: LHO did not shoot ANYONE. He was "Set-Up", just like he said. Will not be long now before this will become a known FACT.

Nothing on that, but seeing Gemberling's report reminded me

of an odd happening at Mary's burial. Robert Groden and I stood

on the fringe of the crowd at the cemetery...looked down and

noticed that the tombstone we were standing on said ROBERT

GEMBERLING...just about 20 feet from Mary's plot. She may

still be on the job, checking on him.

Jack

Hi Jack,

thanks for the reply. Yes, that is a strange coincidence indeed!

I found something further on Mr and Mrs Loomis who were mentioned in the previous document. I found this in the Dallas Municipal Archives. They say a 1949 Ford pulled up outside their house in September (1963 I presume) and they claim it was owned by LHO. I never heard of this Jerry Pat Shelley character before either.

Strange story:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2158-001.gif

and

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2158-002.gif

The text comes out very small but you should be able to enlarge it.

LHO had two apts. "the crazy doorway" entrance' on Elsbeth St, 605 or 602 I think ( from memory) also mentioned on this Forum years ago. Ask Jim Marrs and Peter Lemkin about that apt. I took Jim Marrs to both of these apt, Becklet and Elsbeth, also Nigel Turner and Oliver Stone's people were taken there by me.. The apt behind the Beckley St address LHO visited the Cubans many times and I was there ( the back building directly behind Beckley). My initals were carved in a draining board at that rear apt. and as of 1991 were still there "WRP" as confirmed by the owners. The two Cubans who rented that apt were thrown out because of the messes they made and all the late night visitors and the carved WRP on the draining board. This was also told to the Church Com and Congressman Tomas Downing in 1975 before the HSCA was formed...... I was attacked at the time I post most of this information and it went nowhere...... I was just trying to help researchers.... that was information before the fact... given to law enforcement and later to this forum and its members... it did not happen I was told by many on this forum and I was called a fabricator and xxxx.... This is "Background Information for you I hope it helps in some way. There is a lot the research community does not know about all that... Harlendale, Franandez (pho sp) and those associated with Alpha-66 and Omega-7 of Miami... but what do I know.... I read about it in 1932 in The Dallas times Hearld in comic section.

I'm going to rattle some more chains.... not members of this Forum....but those in the dark shadows who like to play silly games.....

good work

P.S. I would like to see 'Al Carrier' come back on this Forum...perhaps he would be treated with a little more dignity that he was when he too tried to help researchers on this forum. He has very good information to share if we let him. Seems some of us have to weave, duck, and work our way around the "Gatekeepers" who monitor these forums or we get into trouble or scared off and impotant leads go nowhere the information goes into the "Black Hole".

If you [anyone can assume the 'you'] want to get to the bottom of the 'Files' matter [which I don't believe in, but lets put it to the 'test'] one only needs to take two American citizens and a lawyer to approach and enter the correctional facility he is in and make a 'citizen's arrest' of him for the assassination of JFK [or accessory to] or a related matter or person. That would force a trial where one could try to get the truth out. Otherwise, the matter is just one to get James a better cell than he would have had without the tempting proposal. Do it, or end it.

What about "Hawk", RAVEN, Gator, and Eagle..... care to explain.... Its about time to come out with what you know instead of being so secret...or put it to rest?

Tosh, You might want to contact Robert Clayton Buick. He claims Roselli told him about the abort team in prison.

Email me and I'll give you his number. dank@xs4all.nl

I can share something else re Files military service. You'll be surpised.

Wim

Wim: I am at the airport and short on time.

Many years ago I had a brief encounter with Buick....(or Black) It came from one of Roselli's associates, can't remember who. (NOT ROSELLI) Barnard Fensterwald set up the contact. This was in reference to "Billy Joe Keesey" and a contract Billy Joe had done for the mob concerning a diplomat from Mexico. Gary Shaw and Fensterwald Jr had information about Billy Joe.... some years later Billy Joe made a statement that "Buick" was in or knew about Dallas. But nothing about any teams operating around Dallas or he would'nt say because he said "he was scared to go there" Billy Joe was in jail at the time. His home town was El Paso (or thats where he was listed at the time he stold a bunch of Parachutes at Ft Bliss.) (I think I have that right.. memory) Ask Buick if he knew Billy Joe? I do know that Buick (or Black as some have changed his name around for whatever reasons) was in the same prison as Roselli as wel as ...................JB.... of Tucson who said Roselli was in a storm drain at Dallas. Roselli was puting out feelers to see what JB knew about the JFK matter. JB wrote a book about the information Roselli had told him.

If you like you can have Buick contact me.... If I contact him it would only contaminate him and me and the "ABORT TEAM" or any valid information he might have in that direction....... because of well........ you know that drill. ?// I do not know what happened to Billy Joe or that investigation (about 1979-80 or there abouts.... again memeory ..... which I am not allowed to use) If its not written about in some BS book... then it did not happen... makes me sick... Got to go... hope this helps..... you know my take on Jimmy has not changed.... However, Tell him Hell-o from me and I hope he is doing well.... But I can not directly help in that direction.

P.S. Wim: Be careful. There are some powers out there that are really PISSED off. no details at this time.... but they are crawling from under their rocks and out of the woodwork... watch your six old friend...

The term "Abort" was first told to me by a CIA case officer in West Palm Beach Florida before JFK's trip to Dallas and again on the flight to Dallas. To me that meant prior knowledge.

Tosh, do you recall how long before the assassination you first heard about an Abort mission?

Specifically, was it before or after November 1 '63?

TIA...

I think it was after Nov 17 give or take a day or two. Information had been received from Miami. I was in West Palm (Loxahachee, Fla) when we received that info and that is what sent the team to Dallas.

I am in process of leaving on a trip ..... so I can't be more detailed. more for you when I get back in a few weeks....

Thanks, Tosh.

This is all very interesting. James Dolan was associated with the Smaldones out of Colorado as well as a guy named George Fuqua who he ran small time poker game rip-offs with. Fuqua was killed in 1968 by James Cherry who a year later would also kill Dallas Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers.

All these crims were in turn associated with Jack Todd. We can also slide Jack Ruby into this melange of undesirables plus several other folk of dubious reputation. The Campisis, Lewis McWillie and R.D. Matthews all supporting cast in this drama.

One may even suspect that this network may have been employed for aspects of clean-up duty. In my opinion of course.

James

Fuqua, a member of the Dixie Mafia, was recruited by Santo Trafficante to go after some deadbeat bettors, along with James Dolan.

Trafficantes association with teh Dixie mafia comes through his Dallas and New Orleans associations, as well as Florida's cracker mob.

Interesting note- JOe the Ram Saladino, a high level capo in the Denver underworld, also had a vacation home in the Tampa Bay area during Trafficante's heyday.

Yes. And less not forget the Phoenix--Tucson connection to Denver and the Grayhound Park Ned Warren and Reporter Don Boyles car bomb of the late seventies investigations. John Roselli made many trips to Tucson and Las Vegas. I hope this opens a lead and does not just die on the vine like most leads around here. James Cherry bought propety from Ned Warren near Prescott Arizona. Some others got whacked over that deal?

Right?

Reference Phoenix Org Crime Sgt. Ed Salem Sgt Harry Hawkins, and Dan Weaver lead investigators. Referenced also found in a PHX OO 302 file of the FBI as well as PHX 72-73 file as well as FBI 62-2116 Roselli file........ Good background work James and Scott.

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have.

Tosh, the Korean War went from June 25 1950 to July 27 1953.

In your initial post, you said you'd been "sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54." Prior to 1952, you were not in the NG, Army Reserves or regular Army.

My ref. for saying you could join NG at 14 is VN vet. However, I have just checked the current requirement from NG enlistment website and it is 17 WITH parental consent - 18 without, so I assume the age requirement was different in the 1950s.

Without doubt, the Armed Services turned a blind eye to age requirements when sending people into armed combat zones at certain points in history. In fact, there is an organization which represents them called VUMS (Veterans of Underage Military Service).

You say you were in Korea though younger than 18. Fine. Illegal... but far from an isolated case. What isn't clear is how you could be in Korea AND at Ft Bliss receiving training simultaneously.

Not trying to pick arguments - just trying to get a handle on this. I really do not have the time let alone the patience to wade through all your recent posts trying to put (sometimes contradictory) statements together into a cohesive whole.

I read this thread only because as already indicated - the subject of using youth in the Cold War is one that interests me.

Again Have you ever heard of Military Police action at the DMZ? after the Peace talks? War was over but the shooting had not stoped for years later. This is redicules trying to reason with you and a total waste of my time... Move along son theres nothing to see here. And too, Leave my air alone...

Would you like to take the bullit out of my XXX

Edited by moderator for langauge.

Tosh,

I'll try again.

Although I personally find it extraordinary... apparently it was possible to join the National Guard and the Army Reserves at age 14. Ergo... I have no concerns mow on THAT issue.

The rest of your story contains many things which may or may not be readily explicable - but it would take detailed study to try and sort out what was actually going on.

As for being shot in the butt... whatever the circumstances... this didn't happen in a war zone. You would not be sent to a war zone until you were "of age".

Dawn has said that a detailed study of your background has already been made. Maybe at some stage she arrange for the main points from that to be posted or shared.

\

You say you want to help, but the manner in which you've posted information is just plain confusing and difficult to follow. Moreover, your reaction to a suggestion that detailed study is required doesn't inspire much confidence.

If you want people to simply take your word that there was something inexplicable going on without any definable historical context - that's fine. You'll find no shortage of gullible types here ready for acolyte status. I've got better things to do.

Sir: I too, have better things to do than bottle feed and nurse you along the road of research and life.

I will do your homework this one last time.

Go to the 1951 document and look at the top of the page where it says CASE NUMBER #DL 26-14024 this is a 1951 case number referenced to Stanton's arrest of 10-19- 1951.

Now go to the 1952 Plumlee document and look at the bottom of that page CASE NUMBER #26-157654 . The case numbers or file numbers are not the same. These are TWO different cases. The Stanton case or file was put into the Plumlee file. Was this a mistake in filing or done by FBI or Marry Ferrell Foundation???. As to your statement that no New Orleans records..., read the complete file. What is the OO (Office of Orgin) of the 26-12925 and 26-14405 FBI files?

Sir. You owe me an apology. Or was this intended to derail research for your own gratification..., being your such a solid and a good researcher and like to deal with the law and FACTS.

Also:

How do you know I was not in a war zone? I have a full VA disability. I was going to post the VA award which mentions KOREAN VET. but I do not have the space So much for your law. You seem to make bold statements. Please post your references and documentation as I have and will do..

.

Tosh,

I would like to apologize for falsely insinuating you were trying to pull a fast one but your own comment that your intention was “to pull a chain or two” added to the impression that you were. So did seeing statements from YOU (elsewhere) that “I was enlisted and assigned to military specialized operations at Fort Bliss, Texas in April of 1954” with no mention of previous service in tne National Guard.

Also as Greg pointed out your claim that “The following link indicates an arrest in New Orleans in July 52 and then this person was husseled into the army approx 4mo later (Oct 52) and sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54. “ was false. The linked page didn’t back any of your claims. Though the information might rather be found on other threads as (once again) Greg put it “any connection between what was written in the initial post and its title needs to be clear and in one place.” It indicated you were questioned in a small town in central Texas and made no mention of New Orleans. There was no indication of what crime you’d committed (or even that you’d committed or been charges with one) or what sentence you been given.

Looking for some of the missing info I went to the next page of the same document which mentioned a “subject” who was arrested and sentenced for “theft an interstate transportation of an automobile” i.e. “crossing a state line in a stolden can” (sic) the crime you said you been charged with. Since both page were from the document and the “subject” of the second one was charged with the crime you said you been arrested for I incorrectly assumed they referred to the same incident. I noticed the identical May and June 1952 dates on both pages rather than the 1951 interview date.

Also if you want to get nitpicky you said you were arrested in July 1952 but the May 19 document indicated you were questioned February 26.

There was no malicious intent on my part just as you can make innocent mistakes, like saying a linked document “indicates” things it doesn’t and getting confused about dates I can make innocent mistakes like failing to notice a date and getting confused by your incorrect information.

If you want to foster “hard research” perhaps you could start by giving accurate information in your posts.

Len

Also as Greg pointed out your claim that “The following link indicates an arrest in New Orleans in July 52 and then this person was husseled into the army approx 4mo later (Oct 52) and sent to Ft Bliss for training in Oct 52-54. “ was false. The linked page didn’t back any of your claims...".

reply

Sir. Please re read your documents. Staton was arrested and signed a statement on 10-19-51 to the effect he stold a car. The arrest of me and others was 2-26-52 the auto in question was reported stolden on 2-22-52 The 1951 arrest and confession of Staton would be approx four months before the auto theft in the Plumlee, Farrentello, Huckby, case. Did Stanton sign a confession 4 months before the crime? Could that page of 1951 been missed filed and put into the Plumlee Feb 22 1952 file? I know that could not happen because the FBI could not make such a mistake. Point being Staton had nothing to do with the Plumlee case. As to the dates of service please re read the discharge papers posted...

You said "...start by giving accurate information in your posts.

Can you read? Be nit pick thats fine.... I supplied the documentation, and you failed to interp it corectly... not me... Point being I was arrested on Feb 22,1952 and in the National Guard the following Oct 22,1952 thu Feb 8,1953 went in one month before my 15th birthdday. (4 mo after my arrest) thansfered to the FOURTH ARMY RESERVE Sept 28 1953 to March 2, 1954 the next day March 3 1954 into the regular Army at Ft Bliss as a Cpl until 2 July 1954.

How did I get the rank of Cpl. after only 4 months in the military.... Regular Army as well as Army Reserve?

As to what happen in the sentencing of the car therft how could you know what the disposition was? Its all BLACKED OUT and sealed... just recently released and unsealed however details of the arrangement are still BLACKED OUT.

I have more important things to do that point out sloppy research on your part. Its been over fifty years ago and none of the documentation was avail to get all the transfering around as to days and months from memory... I guess I am just aliar. and we will leave it at that... I have every right to be hot

"...start by giving accurate information in your posts. you said. Well sir... It is accurate. You have missed the whole point of the post. I attempted to show the correct record by posting the documents I was on 4 years federal Probation and in the Army at the time I was on Probation... Did the military not do a background check on me?...... I can't disprove a negative on your part. So we will just move along and you think what you want.

I'm grateful for your responses, and I'd like to shamelessly continue to tap your experiences and intuition.

Can/will you tell me anything about a "Joseph Silverthorne" and/or a Silverthorne Stables (perhaps in France)? Or an Operation Silverthorne?

Can you speak authoritatively on the role of Delk Simpson in this affair?

How about Napoleon Valeriano?

Again I must refrain from commenting on the possibilities of connections between and among these queries -- at least for now. I'm guessing that you'll understand.

Thanks again,

Charles

I think I know where you are going with this:

Because I am short on time at the moment I will just be very brief and if it works for you .., then I will go into it a little deep if you like.

This may seem criptic. But if you are aware of what I say then I would be glad to exchange more information. If not then we will leave it there: Here goes

Valeriano was at one time an instructor at the School of Americas at about the time it was formed around the sixties (memory) he later went to Central America and headed up the Death SQd and became a known assassin. It has been said he was a CIA/Covert Operative. You might try a background check on a recently declassified report found in the LAZO or LASO file of 62-63 along with a military person named I can recall but think it was a Col. James Barley (I think)

This Ops became known as a "Team C-TF" and worked into the Special Group and the 5412th. The OMC 235 group was doing hit and run operations of a psychological nature. Soon some of these groups splintered into SOG-40 or Ops 40. I think this was around the years of 1960-72, but not sure (I'm working on memory) Valeriano also known as 'Snake" was the lead point man and POC for this operation. (I can't recall at this time the names of some of those Ops down there) Colombia, El Salvador and Guatamala..... In the early days late fifties Buddy Walker previous Marine played havy in those Operations before he became an instructor at Benning and on to the SoA.

Fletch Prouty some years before his death met with me and we talked about some of those operations before and after the BoP. All that information was classified Top Secret and I questioned Fletch on how he got the documentation he showed me... it was still marked Secret. He did not respond.

Do you know about the "Colombia Survey Team" and what its fuction was in the sixties?

Get back to me if I have or on the same page. When I have time I'll go deeper into some of this and really piss some people off...

I knew of a Col Silverthorn but he was WW11 and worked with my step-dad "Clearnce Morgan", in the South Pacific. I thought he was OSS but not sure. He was associated with "Bull" Simpson in 1943-44 then came to the Pentagon.

I have ran out of time.. going on a trip for a few days...... There might be nothing to my ramble, but this is the best I can do on cue in reference to you questions....

Why was an 'Abort Team' sent in? Who sent them?

For over nine years this 'Specialized Army Unit" (SAU) was burried within the Pentagon. It was a very small 'test unit' before it surfaced in 1969, but it had been operational before it became the DMS. Even the CIA did not know about it's early existence. It was solely a military matter. A left over from Ike's days.

President Kennedy found out about this secret unit and ask the CIA about it. They knew nothing. Yes the military was in Dallas that day and they were not in uniform. And other military intel units did not know of their existence, or where they were located..,or why. (end )

The Abort Team -- what shall I call it ... rumor, or legend, or reality? -- makes no sense if its primary mission was to save JFK's life AND it was in position to do so.

Unless the game was to accomplish the mission in a highly dramatic and PUBLIC fashion so as to kill a whole flock of birds with one stone, and things went terribly wrong.

I'll cut to the chase. Are you aware of a core (as opposed to corp) of loyal military officers, then and/or now, who struggle deep within the corrupt system to clean it?

Are code names for operations and/or entities ever used more than once and simultaneously in an effort to further confuse and disguise?

Could there be more than one so-called Pegasus group/operation?

Thank You for your reply. I will attempt to answer your questions the best I can.

The term "Abort" was first told to me by a CIA case officer in West Palm Beach Florida before JFK's trip to Dallas and again on the flight to Dallas. To me that meant prior knowledge.

At that point in time I would have no way of knowing any of the background as to the lead in to this term or that mission. I was told information received from Miami and a few Cubans had been picked up and it was rumored that they were going to fire on Air Force One at West Palm Beach (Nov. 17th or there about) From those interviews was information about Austin and Dallas. There were many rumors that persons unknown were in process of assassination. Most had been proven as false. the "Team" (if I can use that term) did not think much about this pending hit. They felt it was just another crazy threat which meant nothing. As to rumor, legend, or reality? From my POV I have to saw reality. The details as I see them or saw them are to complicated to detail at this time.

"...I'll cut to the chase. Are you aware of a core (as opposed to corp) of loyal military officers, then and/or now, who struggle deep within the corrupt system to clean it?

YES very much aware. I too have played in that ball park from the Pentagon and CIA Hdq;. In fact it was a spin from those type of operations and players who were sent to Dallas by some of those loyal hard working staff within the Pentagon and the CIA. As to the "core" as you speak. Yes I do know some of these "core" personal who work very hard and sometimes in total secret to "clean up" some of the mess others started or left behind. Not all the Military or CIA for that matter, are what some claim to be "Rouges" or "infiltrators" Most of those types are associated with special interest and not loyal military personal working for the interest of the United States and its policies. I have always stated that, but sometimes that part is left out on interviews of the past by those who want to fit my "tale" into their works to prove had bad our government is. I never intended for my story to go off in that direction. But its on the record where it counts on where I stand and have stood for years. I have tried to help this "core" of military personal, and have done so over the years. However, "Sometimes we have found the enemy and he is US" type mentality roams the halls of the Pentagon as you know.

Are code names for operations and/or entities ever used more than once and simultaneously in an effort to further confuse and disguise?

Again I will try to answer the best I can from my POV. NO if you know what you say you know about "Black "off the books operations" then you would know why this is never done. Even names associated with various operations are often changed while engaged in that operation. Names are only used once. Operational names are sometimes used as "cut-out". However, an none sanction Ops sometimes compromised an official Ops by infiltration from unauthorized personal. KGB was good at that... so was "Mockingbird". after it was infiltrated. This comes under the heading 'Method and Procedures"

Could there be more than one so-called Pegasus group/operation?

Again NO. BUT you might find a cable with NAG/Pegasus-RTC from S/E Asia back in the Nam days. Or it could be a search and destroy team with connections back to a named Operation. Similar to the person or personal found in KUBAK-01 report.

What led up to Watergate? What did we find in those investigations?.... How did they come together? Was it a Pentagon Operation? Was it a CIA operation? Was it a WH operation? Was it a Rouge operation? Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Most of the questions you ask cannot be answered by a simple yes or no. And to thoughly explain would be a book. One I do not care to write.

Tosh,

Regarding a Capt. Saxton, there was a West Point graduate by the name of Ben Saxton Jr.

In 1958, he was Lt. Ben Saxton stationed in Nurnberg with the Fourth Armoured Division. He was also an aide to Brig. Gen. W.F. Ryan.

Saxton married a German girl during this time.

In 1963, he was Captain Ben Saxton. Also worth mentioning is that he was an NRA expert rifleman medal winner.

Does he ring a bell?

James

No I do not recall this person. I was asked about him some years ago and I thought it might have been a Col.Simpson, but that was proven wrong. It was a speculation on my part. I should never speculate or recall from memory..., thats proves deadly in this game. Sometimes the "powers that be" will lead you down that path and then pounce on you to cover their miss deeds.

Tosh,

I have confirmed you could join National Guard and Army Reserves at 14. Not confirmed yet is issue of written parental consent. It appears your parents gave verbal consent only. But that's now only a minor issue. In short, there was nothing extraordinary in it. And you would certainly not have seen any action in NG or Army until "of age".

Would you care to post your confrimation?

Would you care to see the bullit hole in my Butt?

Yet to confirm, but it seems going into regular army via National Guard may have been a way of circumventing normal age requirement.

Yes. I did it all by myself with no help from anyone.

To do your story justice would mean to check every detail, and all contracts signed against legal requirements. The devil really is in the detail and it is there that solid inferences can be gleaned as to what it all may mean.

Its taken over fifty years to get this far. And we would not be here if I had not opened my mouth and obtain the classified documentation through declassification processes to prove to those who have said "it never happened: FACT I joined the Army National Guard at 14-- Regular Fourth Army at 15 Fourth Army Reserve at 16.

As it stands, without such detailed study, and based solely on what I've read in this thread... I'd speculate you were possibly placed into the National Security Training Corps (NSTC)... yet if that had been the case, I'd expect you to know that's what you were in (even if the training was being given through the National Guard and/or the Army).

Oswald, imo, was in the NSTC when he enlisted into Marines.

Your right. there is nothing to this and the fact that I was assigned a military MOS of 1795 as a Tank Creman at 14 assign to a Shetman Tank as a a tank driver and received a bullit hole in the butt in a hostile fire fighti;. assigned to an Army Reserve Unit at 15 when the law states you cannot be in the Army Reserve unless you had completed a full tour of duty in the regular Army. Not to mention receiving the rank of Cpl. before I was 16 and a CIA file which starts in Feb of 1954 And received flight training under the GI Bill in 54.., ended up in Cuba in 1956 is all normal course of action... and all within the law of the time. And it is normal procedure to seal the military file and the 1952 court records for over fifty years, then classifie the CIA file and events which are in the file with the enlistment record. SOP My point in starting this thread was to show a chain of events which led a young man to Miami, Cuba, Dallas, and beyond, who played a very small part in some of the most turbulent years of American history. I started this thread to answer the question; how did a young man of 14 get into the Regular Army, and too how young men bond for prison were sent into the army to train for specialized military operations for whatever reasons.

But your right. Its all legal and above board. But for those who said years ago that it could not happen and it did not happen-- a boy my age sneaking into the military through the back door on his own, with no help from anyone-- and not being able to present, in those years, any records or papers when asked for proof-- because they had been burned in a fire in St Louis in 1972-- means the event or events did not happen. So the first link in the chain did not happen and therefore none of the events thereafter as outline happened,... but if they did they were legal..... sounds like CIA Mumbo-Jumgo- to me. The documentation is now declassified and in place after fifty years.

Now lets put this puppy to bed and move on to other matters which are more important than my input and contributions to this Forum and the research community as a whole concerning the JFK mater and beyond.