William Plumlee
-
Posts
1,053 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by William Plumlee
-
-
On another note though, while I also initially thought that the Douglas Caddy sent out to aid the Watergate guys was Estes former lawyer, my reading of some of the books from Watergate participants I got the impression that the DC Caddy was a young fellow who was picked to respond to the call to the law firm based on his lack of experience and visiblity. I don't know if anyone has really confirmed that link or not but it may be a coincidence (although that would be a heck of a coincidence).
-- Larry
Larry: They are the same Doug Caddy.
And why the print evidence has not gone further is because since Glen Sample obtained Wallace's print from Doug Kinser's murder to do the comparison to the latent, that "channel" has been blocked. As in no one can get access to that print now from Austin DPS. You "need a case to attach it to". I don't think Nathan Darby himself can even get it at this point.
Dawn
I just received word I should not post this and it would be best for me to just forget it. Perhaps, I would have..., until I was told that:
Very interesting Larry and Dawn. Good research paper Larry. Interesting reading. (at least from my view point) I find it interesting and almost proves beyond doubt what I know to be true. Now its a case of proving the connections and the print is the ace.
However, the fingerprint is not a dead issue. I have a source who might help on this very delicate matter. Some Texans, in the Dallas and Austin areas, have known for years about my family associations with some of these Texas politicians and inside fund raisers. (ref; Texas Ranger Mr. xxxxxxxxxxx ret (certified statement on file)
The details are sensitive had have been for years. Even before the 1940's some of our family friends were on the "inside" of some of this Texas wheeling and dealing. From Lockheed at Dallas Love Field, during the war years of the 40's, to Ling Temco Vaught at Hensley Field, and North American Aviation. There have been bits a pieces handed down to me by accident.., and as I got older on purpose. My family played a small part in this Texas political 'mumb-bo' Jum-bo' of the time. (certified copies of Bio on the Plumlee's/Morgans and the Clint Murxxx 1940-1967 done by independent sources names withheld at present)
The fingerprint and palm print was taken off the box by a friend who was there that day. He was law enforcement, active on another project but was for awhile tied to the FBI's investigation in Dallas. The prints on record are not the only prints available. Dallas has copies only. Better ones are available and will soon be released for study. (Mr.xxxxxd Texas Department of Public Safty, Austin Texas; certified affidavate, 1998.)
Because of the circumstances the chain of evidence for these prints has to be established first. And that is in the works as I write this. Its not over yet. Some out there will get pissed at me for this... but I think its time to prove or dis prove this once and for all. (recordered by a Friend ,a well known Texas Researcher who wants to remain annom.)
It has been said when 'Lady Bird" dies then these prints will come forward from the Dallas P.D and the Austin Texas boys. At that time they can be compared with the FBI and the other Dallas prints. When that is done it will tell who (over the years) has tampered with them and perhaps, why. (documented; name withheld at present as agreed)
I guess what I am saying is a set of prints that have not been given to these law enforcement agencies is available and will be forth coming. Remember we are only dealing with copies, which have been held in their law enforcement bins. I am pushing for this and have been told to "Back Off".
When this release is done, then perhaps the established, or tampered history can be changed and rewritten to reflect the truth of that day.
P.S.Other points to consider:
(1) The prints are not LHO.
(2) The prints are not arranged in an order that would indicate moving or loading or stacking the boxes. (documented by letter)
(3) The crew who had put all the boxes on the fifth floor were fingerprinted. Their prints did not match the prints taken from the boxes at the sniper's nest. (certified afda. by letter)
(4) The results of the fingerprinting of the employees were not released to Dallas PD they were retained by the Dallas FBI and not released to Dallas or Texas authorites. (detailed sworn statement from source)
PS2: One other point. I was told the LHO did not leave any prints at the snipers nest.. At least this is what I was told. But I am not sure of this source.
Does anyone out there know if Oswald left any prints behind... on boxes or window frames or doors, ect? If not I find that strange for a person who worked there. Were there any prints taken that were left anywhere by Oswald? If not why. It was a crime scean... the whole building. Right?
-
Tosh,
What did become of Eddie Perez? Did Castillo go in to Cuba to get him out?
Dave
David: I am not sure about Castillo, but to my knowledge nobody got him out. We went back into Cuba a few weeks later to (or was told ) to bring them out Eddie (aka) and others, but that too was a failed mission. Some of the details of this operation can be found in an old Coppla Magazine published in San Francisco around August of 1976 by 'Warren Hinckle' and 'WM. Turner' "The CIA's Secret Yacht War". "Cuba's MIA's". "Deadly Secrets"; "Fish are Red" (Ref; Alton Sweening (sp) Life Magazine's, Richard Billings)
Note: Four trips I was own: The Flying Tiger.., in case there was an aircraft available to fly someone off the island; The Wind JammerII and THOR operation aka (Red Cross); The PBY where we took the bodies from the beach; and about a week later again with the PBY to bring somebody out (thought to be Bayo aka Perez) Another rumor we heard was Odio and Eddie, were safe and we were going in to get them. All these were under the umbrella of "TILT" as some CIA and others have called this secret operation.
-
(Sorry for the early submission. Gonna be away for a few days.)
A League of Their Own:
A Look Inside the Christian Defense League
By D. Boylan*
I enjoyed your paper very much well documented.
However there is one part I think, at least from my point of view, is an old story planted for effect to throw off the trail to MI and Dallas/Miami operations which had been on going concerning gunrunning through Dallas for over three years.
"....A close look at Hall and Howard's associates explains why the various investigations took such an interest in them. Hall testified to receiving money from Mafioso Sam Giancana ($20,000 - 30,000), went on a mission with ex-CIA paramilitarist William "Rip" Robertson, just missed going on the now infamous Bayo-Pawley raid on Cuba,[60] went with Rip Robertson to John Martino's house in Miami, visited General Edwin Walker with Gerry Hemming, admitted to having heard of Lee Oswald in June of 1963 and testified that he was offered $50,000 to kill Kennedy but that he declined the offer...". [61]
Hall was never considered for any CIA UC or covert operation with any of these case officers. He was not connected in any way with CIA operations and too, he was not the friend he thought of Mafia. The Mafia (Chicago and the small Dallas bunch) referred to Hall as 'Liver Lips". They.., mafia and CIA knew he was a paid informant for the FBI. They feed him information they wanted the FBI through Hoover, to have; information they (mafia) wanted to get back to various people. In fact at one point a mob contract was considered on Hall, but Hoover stopped that. Hoover felt he could have "His Boys" take care of Hall and "put him down'. John Martino tried to stay clear of Hall as well as most of the 'non sanctioned 'INTERPEN' boys.
Ref; first hand accounts: (as told to me by John Roselli (1962) Miami; and John Martino (1978) Miami; and retired detective XXXXSMITH. Miami homicide (1999) and Scott Warner Denver FBI SAC Denver Colorado, (1964.) Buna Vista, Colorado; documented; Phoenix Organized Crime; Sgt Ed Salem ret. Referenced Roseli/ Plumlee FBI 62-2116xxx; 1976)
Tosh,
Thanks for the additional info. My take on Hall is that he talked a good game.
Do you know of his relationship with Santo Trafficante and Frank Sturgis?
He reportedly visited Trafficante in Tampa on occasion.
Dave
In my opinion, I doubt that. Trafficante was not one to chit chat with people he knew were informants for the FBI. In fact the term "Liver Lips" came from the mob. I'm not sure about Sturges, but I think Sturges also shuned him. Sometimes these wanta bees would get next to you much like how little girls get next to rock stars to get their picture taken with them,
-
Tosh,
Do you know about the other place? This was a small place LHO and Marina rented down the street? It too, was a hard place to get into. Are you familiar with the doorway and how to get to this small apartment. And do you know the real address?. That too is an interesting story.
No. I hvae never heard of this other place.
Steve Thomas
Perhaps others out there should cover this subject if they know. I think it is interesting as to the dates Oswald lived there. (at to this other place) I'll leave it here for now and hope someone comes forward with factual information that we can compare. Thanks for the interest and your post. I hope this leads somewhere for you. Tosh
-
Thanks,
-
-
(Sorry for the early submission. Gonna be away for a few days.)
A League of Their Own:
A Look Inside the Christian Defense League
By D. Boylan*
I enjoyed your paper very much well documented.
However there is one part I think, at least from my point of view, is an old story planted for effect to throw off the trail to MI and Dallas/Miami operations which had been on going concerning gunrunning through Dallas for over three years.
"....A close look at Hall and Howard's associates explains why the various investigations took such an interest in them. Hall testified to receiving money from Mafioso Sam Giancana ($20,000 - 30,000), went on a mission with ex-CIA paramilitarist William "Rip" Robertson, just missed going on the now infamous Bayo-Pawley raid on Cuba,[60] went with Rip Robertson to John Martino's house in Miami, visited General Edwin Walker with Gerry Hemming, admitted to having heard of Lee Oswald in June of 1963 and testified that he was offered $50,000 to kill Kennedy but that he declined the offer...". [61]
Hall was never considered for any CIA UC or covert operation with any of these case officers. He was not connected in any way with CIA operations and too, he was not the friend he thought of Mafia. The Mafia (Chicago and the small Dallas bunch) referred to Hall as 'Liver Lips". They.., mafia and CIA knew he was a paid informant for the FBI. They feed him information they wanted the FBI through Hoover, to have; information they (mafia) wanted to get back to various people. In fact at one point a mob contract was considered on Hall, but Hoover stopped that. Hoover felt he could have "His Boys" take care of Hall and "put him down'. John Martino tried to stay clear of Hall as well as most of the 'non sanctioned 'INTERPEN' boys.
Ref; first hand accounts: (as told to me by John Roselli (1962) Miami; and John Martino (1978) Miami; and retired detective XXXXSMITH. Miami homicide (1999) and Scott Warner Denver FBI SAC Denver Colorado, (1964.) Buna Vista, Colorado; documented; Phoenix Organized Crime; Sgt Ed Salem ret. Referenced Roseli/ Plumlee FBI 62-2116xxx; 1976)
-
I have a slight correction to make:
Orginally, I wrote:
In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage:
Though the original message is dated as November 23rd, the time given is 0405 Z.
I believe this is Coordinated Zulu Time. The Centrl Time Zone is I believe, six hours behind GMT which would mean the time the original message was sent from Dallas would be about 11:00 PM on the 22nd.
Steve Thomas
Reference to Beckly Address and house behind: 'The Flight to Dallas' and 'Howdid the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley'.
Thank You for your respond. I t must be kept in mind that I first took Senate investigators to this place in 1978 and Jim Marrs and others from Oliver Stone's research team there in 1991. In 2002 I took Nigel Turner to this house behind Beckley and he took pictures.
Most all these people told me I was wrong about the house. They said that only a park was behind the Beckley address. I told them you missed the alley entrance to the place and took them there. After I had done this then everybody said they knew about this house behind Beckley and they were just testing me.
Do you know about the other place? This was a small place LHO and Marina rented down the street? It too, was a hard place to get into. Are you familiar with the doorway and how to get to this small apartment. And do you know the real address?. That too is an interesting story.
Perhaps Jim Marrs would like to come on this forum and tell how he found out about this place. I think it would prove interesting for the sake of truthful research. Thanks again for the post. I hope my story has cleared a few matters for you. There is more..., lots more... but its like eating a elephant... You do it with small bites
-
There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.
-
THE "WHOLE BAY OF PIGS THING": FROM DALLAS TO WATERGATE
In the year following the Cuban Missile Crisis, President Kennedy took measures that led some to conclude that he had experienced an epiphany as a result of his joust at the abyss. A hot-line was installed between Washington and Moscow to provide for better communication in the event of some future crisis. The superpowers entered into a limited test ban treaty, ending their testing of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere, oceans, and space. During the last year of his presidency, Kennedy had also taken measures to shut down CIA-sponsored operations involving the exile community. This resulted in a schism between the FBI and the CIA, and generated new antipathy toward the Kennedy administration. The President's public assurance about what was "understood by the anti-Castro exiles" was more wish than fact.[1]
Following incidents in March of 1963 when powerboats manned by anti-Castro exiles roared into Cuban harbors shooting up two Soviet freighters, President Kennedy began to take official steps to terminate U.S. support for groups like Alpha 66 that had become out of control. When Bobby Kennedy wrote his brother a memo promoting new efforts to "cultivate" an "internal breakup in Cuba," the President uncharacteristically did not respond, at least in writing.
Robert and John Kennedy
Apparently the brothers held a private discussion which led to an immediate turn-around, reflected in a presentation to the National Security Council in which Bobby dutifully played his prescribed role of informing the President that "a decision had been made to formulate a plan to shut down the hit-and-run attacks from Florida locales." The following day, the President publicly declared that he would "take every step necessary" to terminate the exile raids against Cuba.
Shortly thereafter, mirroring the Kennedys' earlier turn against the Mafia, the Justice Department began prosecuting exile leaders for "violating U.S. neutrality laws."[2] At the same time, the CIA was ordered to cut off funding for the groups, leaving them to fend for themselves or draw on other sources. The President's public statement regarding the exiles' activities was unequivocal:
"There will not be, under any circumstances, an intervention in Cuba by the United States armed forces. The government will do everything it possibly can; I think it can meet its responsibilities, to make sure that there are no Americans involved in any actions inside Cuba.... The basic issue in Cuba is not one between the United States and Cuba. It is between the Cubans themselves. I intend to see that we adhere to that principle and as I understand it this administration's attitude is so understood by the anti-Castro exiles from Cuba in this country."[3]
Fidel Castro
Bobby Kennedy held a meeting to formulate plans to implement the new policy. It included two FBI agents, "officials of the CIA, Immigration and Naturalization Service, Navy, Coast Guard, Customs Service, the Internal Security Division of the Justice Department, and the State Department." He explained that the President "wanted to put a halt to the exile raids" and that "sixteen of the officials present" were to leave immediately for Miami "to decide what measures could be taken." Among the steps later taken were:
"... serving restriction notices on certain exile leaders to prevent them from leaving the United States, refusing reentry to the United States to any exile who went beyond the 3-mile limit offshore, increased surveillance by the Coast Guard of the Florida coastline, and intensified FBI intelligence coverage of Cuban exile groups to ascertain and abort plans for future raids."[4]
Following the Miami conference, the combined forces of the federal government clamped down on the same anti-Castro groups and activities that had previously been given such encouragement and support. Numerous raids were conducted in which agents of the FBI closed down exile training camps, seizing large amounts of weapons, ammunition, and explosives. While it is clear that the President was serious about doing nothing to disturb the fragile peace following the Missile Crisis, and had great reason to fear provoking disclosure of his Secret Deal with Khrushchev, it is not so clear that his brother was going along fully. Having little choice but to support the President's policy publicly, there is ample evidence that in private he continued to support the proscribed activities.
The no-invasion pledge and withdrawal of support for exile activities ushered in a particularly bitter season of discontent within the anti-Castro Cuban community. A flyer dated April 18, 1963, and decorated with a profile of the Alamo, was distributed to Cubans in Miami's Little Havana. It stated: "Only through one development will you Cuban patriots ever live again in your homeland as freemen, responsible as must be the most capable for the guidance and welfare of the Cuban people." This blessing could only come to pass:
"If an inspired Act of God should place in the White House within weeks a Texan known to be a friend of all Latin Americans...though he must under present conditions bow to the Zionists who since 1905 came into control of the United States, and for whom Jack Kennedy and Nelson Rockefeller and other members of the Council of Foreign Relations and allied agencies are only stooges and pawns. Though Johnson must now bow to these crafty and cunning Communist-hatching Jews, yet, did an Act of God suddenly elevate him into the top position [he] would revert to what his beloved father and grandfather were, and to their values and principles and loyalties." Obviously encouraging support for the forcible removal of the President among the anti-Castro exiles, the broadside was signed, "A Texan who resents the Oriental influence that has come to control, to degrade, to pollute and enslave his own people."[5]
The least known of the measures taken by President Kennedy was a peace overture made toward Castro. To many, including top officials at the CIA and the State Department, the very idea of any sort of dialogue with Castro was heresy. Nevertheless, Kennedy authorized William Attwood, Special Adviser to the United States delegation at the United Nations, to begin informal talks with the Cuban Ambassador aimed at eventual normalization of relations between the U.S. and Cuba. He also set up a back channel communication with Castro through journalist Lisa Howard, who was flown to Cuba a number of times in 1963 using a covert operative pilot. A message had been received through U.N. personnel that Castro was displeased about the degree to which Cuba was becoming tied to the Soviet Union and was seeking to redress the balance by finding an accommodation with the United States. There was evidence that a rift had developed between Castro and some of his Communist colleagues, including Che Guevara. The Cuban leader had given an interview in which he expressed satisfaction over Kennedy's crackdown on exile raiding parties.
Che Guevara
It was at this same time that the CIA made its first contacts in nearly a year with Rolando Cubela, a high-ranking traitor in Castro's inner circle. Without the knowledge of the President or CIA Director John McCone, a small group of CIA officers, led by Desmond FitzGerald, an intimate associate of Bobby Kennedy's, prepared to use Cubela to assassinate Castro. Cubela requested a meeting with Bobby so that he could be sure that the scheme had the approval of the President. What he got was a meeting with FitzGerald, who claimed to be a U.S. Senator and Bobby Kennedy's personal representative. Government reports reveal that Cubela was in Paris being handed a poison pen and a gun at precisely the moment that President Kennedy was assassinated. In 1978, Arthur Schlesinger noted:
"The whole Cubela thing raises even deeper questions. The CIA was reviving the assassination plots at the very time President Kennedy was considering the possibility of normalization of relations with Cuba-an extraordinary action. If it was not total incompetence-which in the case of the CIA cannot be excluded-it was a studied attempt to subvert national policy."[6]
Although the President had specifically ordered that the U.N. discussions be kept secret, "it seems inconceivable that the CIA knew nothing about it. American intelligence had Cuban U.N. diplomats under incessant surveillance."[7] It tapped their phones, intercepted their mail, and followed their every movement. Schlesinger has noted that "if word leaked of President Kennedy's efforts, that might have been exactly the kind of thing to trigger some explosion of fanatical violence."[8] Ambassador Attwood, who subsequently realized that his telephone conversations and private meetings were insecure, agreed. He has said,
"If the CIA did find out what we were doing this would have trickled down to the lower echelon of activists, and Cuban exiles and the more gung-ho CIA people who had been involved since the Bay of Pigs. If word of a possible normalization of relations with Cuba leaked to these people, I can understand why they would have reacted violently. This was the end of their dreams of returning to Cuba, and they might have been impelled to take violent action. Such as assassinating the President."[9]
In an historical irony, one of the President's personal messengers, French journalist Jean Daniel, and Castro were together at the moment they learned of the President's assassination. This initiative was later described by the Cuban leader "as a gesture, as an indication of a desire to establish contact, to explore what our thinking was on all of this-and, furthermore, to establish a certain kind of communication." Castro continued,
"We needed a kind of bridge, some sort of communication. Since Kennedy had such great authority in his own country after the crisis, he could have done things that he had not done before. In my view, he had the courage to do them. You had to have courage to defy the state of opinion on all these questions."[10]
Castro's view of Kennedy's performances, as well as the Cuban historical view as a whole, is very interesting given the realities of the Bay of Pigs, the Secret War, and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Listening to Castro's remarks at an oral history conference in Cuba, James Blight concluded: "Kennedy is by far the most respected-even loved-U.S. president since the triumph of the revolution in 1959." He recorded the statement of one Cuban official:
"You see, by not attacking Cuba in April 1961 and October 1962, we believe Kennedy's anti-Cuban machinery turned against him, like Frankenstein's monster. Those forces-the Mafia, the radical Cuban exiles, and the CIA-afterwards conspired successfully to assassinate him, because he prevented them from assassinating Fidel and destroying the Cuban Revolution. In a strange way, we believe, Kennedy had to die so that the Cuban Revolution could live."[11]
Blight's impression is that when Castro discusses Khrushchev and Kennedy, "one senses that the respect is highly qualified with respect to his old friend Khrushchev, but uncomplicated and sincere regarding his old enemy, Kennedy." Castro feels that because of the "boost in the authority he got after the October crisis, when his leadership was consolidated in the United States," Kennedy was "one of the presidents-or perhaps the president best able-to rectify American policy toward Cuba"[12]
At the moment of his death President Kennedy was on his way to deliver a speech in which he would address the kinds of dangerously false constructions so popular at that time in Dallas, a city which had become the epicenter of right-wing jingoistic criticism. The speech presented an almost transcendental world view which is particularly relevant to the "What would Kennedy have done?" debate over Vietnam. While recognizing that dissent is inevitable, the speech was to go on to say:
"But today other voices are heard in the land-voices preaching doctrines wholly unrelated to reality...doctrines which apparently assume that words will suffice without weapons, that vituperation is as good as victory and that peace is a sign of weakness.... I realize that this Nation often tends to identify turning-points in world affairs with the major addresses which preceded them. But it was not the Monroe Doctrine that kept all Europe away from this hemisphere-it was the strength of the British fleet and the width of the Atlantic Ocean."[13]
Political constructions gain a life of their own, making it difficult to harness the released energies. Like the proverbial genie out of the bottle, these manufactured realities are resistant to subsequent containment. Constructions require a special kind of devotion and loyalty; it may be hazardous to one's health to try to change course. President Kennedy knew that by reversing himself on his support of efforts to eliminate Castro, by arousing and then easing tensions against the Soviet Union, and by accepting the assistance of organized crime figures and then allowing his brother, the Attorney General, to vigorously pursue and prosecute them, he was making himself vulnerable to serious physical danger by those most disposed to lash out violently upon feelings of hatred and betrayal.
During those same months of 1963 when the Cubela operation was implemented, a strange scenario was being acted out in the southwestern U.S. An ex-Marine who had previously posed as a defector to Russia was being constructed as a pro-Castro Communist. Records reveal that all of his associations were actually of the anti-Castro persuasion. He was intimately involved with the anti-Communist "White Russian" community, shared an office with the coordinator of anti-Castro activities in New Orleans, and was known to have been present at one of the exile training camps that was closed down by the FBI that summer. His name was Lee Harvey Oswald.
The day after his brother's murder, Bobby Kennedy sought answers from Harry Ruiz-Williams, a CIA agent staying at a CIA-operated safe house used by Cuban exiles. Afterward, speaking with journalist Haynes Johnson, Bobby said that he "suspected CIA-backed anti-Castro forces of having been involved in his brother's death." He was later quoted as telling one of the investigators from his Senate committee days: "Those Cuban cunts are all working for the mob. They blame us for the Bay of Pigs, and they're trying to make this look like a Castro-Communist hit. I don't buy it. And I don't trust those guys at the CIA. They're worse than the Mafia."[14]
Of course, Bobby knew better than anyone what had transpired beneath the surface of the administration's use of the exiles. More personally, he knew the dark side of his own role in the unleashing of elements he now considered responsible for his brother's death. Many of those close to Bobby who saw in him a classic case of survivor's guilt were unaware that a much deeper level of responsibility may have informed his anguish.
Bobby had personally entertained Cuban exiles at his house, Hickory Hill, and kept in touch with them at their apartments at the Ebbitt Hotel in downtown Washington, where they were housed by the CIA. Even Desmond FitzGerald, Bobby's replacement for Wild Bill Harvey, was concerned about the directness of Bobby's involvement with the Cuban exiles. The Attorney General's freelancing with the the Cuban exile community was a formula for disaster. Peter Collier and David Horowitz have written poignantly about Bobby's anguish over what may have been an unintended consequence of his own actions:
"It was Bobby who had led the administration into dangerous places, daring the gods of the underworld and seizing the fire that finally erupted into anti-Kennedy hatred. He had done it in the service of his brother's presidency, yet he had gone past duty or necessity, using his special status as the brother within to justify what had become at times an almost perverse exploration of self. While Jack was alive, everything was justified; now that he was dead, it was all called into question. Had his acts created an environment for assassination? Had his zeal helped create the concatenation of forces that wanted Jack dead?"[15]
Four years after the assassination of the President, the CIA Inspector General conducted an internal investigation which was forwarded to Lyndon Johnson, who told newsman Howard K. Smith: "I'll tell you something that will rock you; Kennedy was trying to get Castro, but Castro got to him first."[16] In March 1967, columnist Drew Pearson wrote, "President Johnson is sitting on a political H-bomb-an unconfirmed report that Senator Robert Kennedy (Dem. N.Y.) may have approved an assassination plot which then possibly backfired against his brother."
The source for the Pearson article was the original mafioso hired by the CIA to kill Castro, Johnny Roselli. The spin being placed on this new round of stories was, like the Oswald promotion, aimed at leading the public to believe that Castro was behind the conspiracy in Dallas. Roselli had revealed to Pearson, through his attorney, Edward Morgan, that "One of our assassination teams was captured and tortured until they told all they knew about our operation which they said was ordered by the White House." Roselli asserted that "the team was turned around, you know, brainwashed, and sent back into our country to kill Kennedy."
Johnny Roselli
All good lies contain a good measure of truth, and such may be the case with Roselli's attempt at history-making. Although this colorful rendition is compelling, given the source, it should be recognized that contained in this version is the admission that it was an anti-Castro hit team that had killed Kennedy. But this secret "team" would hardly have required anything so exotic as brainwashing to retarget its skills against the President. By November of 1963, Kennedy was clearly a foe to the extreme anti-Castro elements; they believed he had cancelled the airstrikes and betrayed the Bay of Pigs operation, then compounded the betrayal by giving the no-invasion pledge, and finally sealed the antipathy by shutting down the exile camps and beginning negotiations directed toward the normalization of relations with Cuba.
When Roselli's well-connected lawyer asked him how he had contained such explosive information, Roselli noted that "all phases of this operation were approved by Allen Dulles and President Eisenhower." He questioned why neither Dulles, who was a member of the Warren Commission investigating the Kennedy assassination, nor Eisenhower, who had full knowledge of the plots, ever came forward. "So what was I supposed to think?" He inferred that the President "wanted to keep the lid on." Roselli speculated that perhaps Johnson "thought it'd be bad for the country to know about this operation-you know, the government of the United States involved with the so-called Mafia to kill the leader of a foreign country and then it boomerangs."[17]
A possibility that may never be resolved is Johnson's notion that some action taken by Bobby Kennedy "backfired against his brother." There is ample evidence of Bobby's continued encouragement of anti-Castro efforts during a period of time when his brother, the President of the United States, was pursuing a very contrary policy.
Bobby Kennedy with Cuban Exiles
Because of the closeness of the brothers it is generally assumed that Bobby was fulfilling one aspect of a multi-track approach on the part of the Administration. While it is understandable that some token support for the exiles might be considered prudent as a way of co-opting more radical elements, the extent to which one approach represented the direct undermining of the other presents a historical conundrum regarding the brothers' coordination of authority. The possibility must be considered that Bobby crossed the line of plausible deniability into a realm in which he was acting in his own highly unofficial capacity apart from any directed intention on the part of the President. Had he, like King Henry II's henchmen, acted on his own to eliminate his brother's Becket?
Consistent with Michael Beschloss' observation that "the most likely explanation for the cause of Kennedy's death lies in his policies,"[18] the convergence of CIA-Mafia-Cuban exile operations with the events surrounding the President's assassination provides strong circumstantial evidence of the motive and means for that crime. But there is more direct evidence. In a 1985 libel trial, E. Howard Hunt ("Eduardo") filed suit contesting an assertion in an article written by former CIA officer Victor Marchetti implicating him in the assassination, including an alleged 1966 memo initialed by CIA Director Richard Helms and Deputy Director for Counterintelligence James Angleton, which discussed Hunt's presence in Dallas and the possibility that "a cover story, giving Hunt an alibi for being elsewhere the day of the assassination, 'ought to be considered.'" Speculating on why such an extraordinary cover-up would be put in writing, a high level CIA source said, "The memo is very odd. It was almost as if Angleton was informing Helms, who had just become director, that there was a skeleton in the family closet that had to be taken care of and this was his response."[19]
Castro's former mistress-turned-CIA agent, Marita Lorenz, testified of her direct knowledge of Hunt's participation, as well as that of other anti-Castro Cubans, in the events in Dallas leading up to November 22, 1963. She claimed to have been in a two car caravan with Frank Sturgis, Orlando Bosch and others traveling from Miami carrying numerous weapons. Upon their arrival in Dallas they were met at their motel on November 21st by their old paymaster, "Eduardo." An hour after Hunt delivered the money and departed, another character out of history arrived: Jack Ruby.
In that trial, an amazing exchange took place after Hunt testified that, "like thousands of other Americans, millions," he, his wife and children had huddled together at home that fateful weekend, "and watched the burial services."[20] Yet, despite providing his own children as alibis, he had also asserted his legal damages to be the doubts in their minds about their own father's activities. The question was asked:
"Mr. Hunt, why did you have to convince your children that you were not in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963, if, in fact, as you say, a fourteen-year-old daughter, a thirteen-year-old daughter, and a ten-year-old son were with you in the Washington, D.C. area on November 22, 1963, and were with you at least for the next forty-eight hours, as you all stayed glued to the T.V. set?" After a long pause, Hunt lamely asserted that. "it was less a question of my convincing them that I was in Washington, D.C. with them-rather, reminding them that I was-than it was to assure them that none of the charges...had any substance to them at all." The magazine's attorney followed up with: "What I want to know is since they knew how outrageous the lies were, why did they have to be convinced by you that you weren't in Texas?" Hunt simply replied: "Reminded, reminded."[21]
E. Howard Hunt
Hunt had failed to anticipate that the two elements of his story-that his children were with him the entire weekend and that his children were unsure of where he had been at the time-were mutually exclusive. Hunt lost his lawsuit. The jury did not even debate the malice issue because the truthfulness of the assertion had been sufficiently proven.
On the tenth anniversary of the invasion fiasco, April 17, 1971, E. Howard Hunt had traveled to the Bay of Pigs Monument in the Little Havana area of Miami to recruit exile veterans for a new operation. Resurrecting the dream of overthrowing Castro, Eduardo had assured them that "the whole thing is not over."[22]
Monument to Bay of Pigs "Martyrs" in Little Havana
Subsequent events would expose a high level role played by these terrorists when a team of Bay of Pigs veterans was caught burglarizing the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate complex in Washington, D.C. Found among the burglars' effects was evidence that they were being coordinated by E. Howard Hunt, who had an office in the White House. In addition to political burglary, Hunt had been given the high-level assignment of manufacturing evidence of President Kennedy's complicity in the assassination of South Vietnam's leader in 1963, Ngo Dinh Diem.
President Nixon subsequently managed to remain in power for more than two years, withstanding remarkable disclosures, until the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that he had to turn over tape recordings of certain Oval Office conversations. Nixon was out of office within two weeks, primarily because of the disclosure of a taped discussion about Hunt that occurred a few days after the break-in. This tape recording has become known in history as the smoking gun conversation.
During that incredible exchange that would topple a presidency, Nixon ordered his Chief of Staff, H. R. Haldeman, to meet with Richard Helms, the Director of the CIA, and tell him to call off the FBI's investigation of the burglary for national security reasons. Nixon suggested that Hunt's involvement be used as a lever to make sure the CIA would cooperate. The transcripts of President Nixon's rantings about Hunt are perhaps the most factually revealing evidence of deep politics in history:
"Hunt...will uncover a lot of things. You open that scab there's a hell of a lot of things.... Tell them we just feel that it would be very detrimental to have this thing go any further. This involves these Cubans, Hunt, and a lot of hanky-panky that we have nothing to do with ourselves. When you get the CIA people in say, "Look, the problem is that this will open up the whole Bay of Pigs thing again." So they should call the FBI in and for the good of the country don't go any further into this case. Period. Just say (unintelligible) very bad to have this fellow Hunt, ah, he knows too damned much.... If it gets out that this is all involved, the Cuba thing would be a fiasco. It would make the CIA look bad, it's going to make Hunt look bad, and it's likely to blow the whole Bay of Pigs which we think would be very unfortunate-both for the CIA, and for the country, at this time, and for American foreign policy. Just tell him to lay off....[23]
Haldeman recorded Helms' dramatic reaction to the threat: "Turmoil in the room, Helms gripping the arms of his chair leaning forward and shouting, 'The Bay of Pigs had nothing to do with this'" Despite this, Helms acquiesced and Haldeman was able to report to the President that "his strategy had worked," that Helms would be "very happy to be helpful." But the remarks and Helms' behavior raised the question in Haldeman's mind: "What was such dynamite in the Bay of Pigs story?" The more innocuous explanation is that Nixon, as the chief White House official involved with the Eisenhower administration's Cuba invasion planning, knew of the government's use of Mafia assassination assets in the efforts against Castro. However, following years of study, analysis and reflection, along with his personal knowledge of the players involved, Haldeman asserted a more astonishing answer to that question: "It seems that in all of those Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs, he was actually referring to the Kennedy assassination." Given his reaction, it is apparent that Helms clearly understood Nixon's message.[24]
Richard Nixon
Aside from such an interpretation of the dark secret to which Nixon was alluding, he and the CIA director had a more current mutuality of interests. Helms wanted to suppress the CIA-Hunt relationship because it violated the Agency's charter regarding domestic spying. Nixon wanted to suppress the White House-Hunt relationship because it would reveal precisely for whom the chief Watergate burglar was working. E. Howard Hunt clearly represented a problem for more than one major Washington power center. Nine months after the smoking gun conversation, when Hunt was about to be sentenced, Nixon was told that Hunt had issued a blackmail demand in lieu of revealing some of the "seamy things" he had done for the President. Nixon's response was unequivocal: "Well, for Christ's sakes...get it."[25]
Notes
1. Michael R. Beschloss, The Crisis Years: Kennedy and Khrushchev, 1960-1963, (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1991), 687.
2. William B. Breuer, Vendetta: Castro and the Kennedy Brothers, (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1997), 209.
3. James Reston, "Top U.S. Advisers in Dispute on Aid to Castro's Foes," The New York Times, April 11, 1963.
4. Breuer, 210-211.
5. William Manchester, The Death Of A President, (New York: Harper & Row, 1967), 46.
6. Anthony Summers, Conspiracy, (New York: McGraw-Hill Book Co., 1980), 426.
7. Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., Robert Kennedy and His Times, (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1978), 557.
8. Summers, 427.
9. Ibid., 426.
10. James G. Blight, Bruce J. Allyn and David A. Welch, Cuba On The Brink. (New York: Pantheon Books, 1993), 237.
11. Ibid., 191.
12. Ibid., 191-193.
13. Gaddis Smith, Gaddis, The Last Years of the Monroe Doctrine. (New York: Hill and Wang, 1994), 111-112.
14. David C. Heymann, RFK. New York: Penguin Putnam Inc., 1998), 10.
15. Peter Collier and David Horowitz, The Kennedys, (New York: Summit Books, 1984), 317.
16. New York Times, June 25, 1976.
17. Ovid Demaris, The Last Mafioso. New York: Bantam Books, 1981), 235-241.
18. Jefferson Morley, "November 22, 1963: Why We Need The Real History Of The Kennedy Assassination," Washington Post, (November 24, 1996).
19. Joe Trento and Jacquie Powers, "Was Howard Hunt in Dallas The Day JFK Died?" Wilmington Sunday News Journal, (August 20, 1978).
20. Mark Lane, Plausible Denial, (New York: Thunder's Mouth Press, 1991), 282.
21. Ibid., 283-284.
22. Carl Oglesby, The Yankee and Cowboy War. (Kansas City: Sheed Andrews and McMeel, Inc., 1976), 277.
23. H. R. Haldeman, The Ends of Power, (New York: Times Books, 1978), 33.
24. Ibid., 38-39.
25. Theodore H. White, Breach of Faith, (New York: Reader's Digest Press,
1975), 199-200.
*I am particularly indebted to Carl Oglesby, whose historical framework has guided me through decades of solitary analysis.
TIM: This is a fine piece of research. I have now read it a few times. There are a few areas I am not familiar with but over all I think it should be broaden and perhaps explained in more detail. A book, perhaps, should be done in this direction. I think the younger generation should be thankful for good researchers like your self... Fine job. Lets see more of the same from you. However, Remember the following story of mine:
"... I was working with a helicopter crew in the Rocky Mountains a few years ago. I was training a new field coordinator, a young kid about twenty. He was doing a fine job on the line and we were going to bump him up to "Senior Field Coordinator".
We were driving down an old mountain road when we came upon a nest of bald eagles. The mother eagle was pushing the young eagles out of the nest. They would flutter and flop and almost hit the ground. Then as if by some miracle they started to fly.
I turned to "Buck" "There is a lesson here", I said. "Look over there!" I pointed to another tree not far away. Two Hawks were sitting there. One of the hawks suddenly swooped down toward one of the baby eagles that was struggling and almost got him, but he missed. It was real aerial combat for awhile, but the little eagle got back to the nest safely.
"Buck" I asked. "Did you see the lesson in this?" "No.", he said. "Well my friend; as soon as you get your new wings be rest assured that another asshole with old wings in another tree will swoop down and try to take your new wings from you.". Its the same with this new job your going into. As soon as your on the line and struggling to do your job all the assholes hiding in the tress out there, are going to try to take you down:. Its nature.
Tim: there is a message here. Tosh
-
Tosh,
I find this extreamely interesting.
Thank you.
Do you know anything about either of the two officers mentioned in that phone call?
Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston.
Steve Thomas
No Steve. Nothing direct or factual only hear say and I am not sure about that source. There was a Capt. Saxton who worked with the 156 tank Bn CO C with a Captain Gilbert COOK and a Captain Black of the 49th Armored Div, Texas National Guard and the 4th Army Reserve Dallas Love Field. But I would not know if they were connected to any of this. For that matter I'm not really sure it was 'Saxton", could have been "Sampson" but I think it was, "Saxton". Its been awhile.
-
WIM's previous POSTI think this story fits right into this thread:http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0019a.html
Reply from Tosh:
Thanks to both of you. Good research.
I would like to add something here. The first information to surface on this matter came from Congressman Tom Downing in the Summer of 1975 or 76 from Phoenix Arizona (ref; FBI 72-73; FBI 105-xxxx and 26xxxxx FBI 62xxxxx) And Berry Goldwater's staff. Mr Lombardo, Goldwater's Security Ad visor; and later, Senator Gary Hart, Senate Arms Service Committee)
Congressman Downing had received information from families of missing men and was asked to look into these matters. In the process of trying to find out what had happened to some of these people, (Paul Hughes, G. Sullivan, Alex Rourke, Fuller, Morgan, etc,) who was also claimed to have been working for the CIA and MI, on covert UC operations in behalf of the United States Government and its Pre-Castro, 1956-59 and later Anti-Castro, 1960-64) operations. Downing investigators uncovered other information , the Flying Tiger, Pawalla, etc, and other information about the Kennedy assassination. This was the beginning of trying to get a committee and the funding to look into the assassination of President Kennedy.
Downing's investigation gather momentum and in a very short time enough information was documented which caused others in D.C. to support Downings efforts and soon the HSCA was formed. It was no time that this HSCA was tainted and information Downing had obtained was purged from the record by "Gonzales" and others, and the investigation was directed away from some of the CIA operations which had been, and were, in process at the time Downing started his investigation in 1974.
We need to go back before the HSCA was formed (1974) and look into the information that was obtained that caused the formation of the HSCA.., not after the committee was forum. I believe most of that early information was later tainted and contaminated by the formal stamp, "National Security matters" and other dis-information was feed to the HSCA while other factual information obtained by Downing's staff was eliminated for review. J Hoover was a part of this process and reviewing and processing information the the HSCA committee.
Tosh
-
I have a slight correction to make:
Orginally, I wrote:
In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage:
Though the original message is dated as November 23rd, the time given is 0405 Z.
I believe this is Coordinated Zulu Time. The Centrl Time Zone is I believe, six hours behind GMT which would mean the time the original message was sent from Dallas would be about 11:00 PM on the 22nd.
Steve Thomas
I find this extreamely interesting. GOOD WORK. This is what its all about. Sharing research... good or bad as to what some of us may think. Thanks for the leg work. There is more to do in this direction.
-
The Attempt to Remove Fidel Castro from Power: A Personal History
[b]"... In 1963, John Martino came to me with a fascinating story. He had attended a meeting in Palm Beach at which a Cuban who used the nom de guerre of Bayo...". [/b]
"...What had begun as a small, covert operation was now mushrooming into a fairly large enterprise. William Pawley, former US Ambassador, godfather of the World War II Flying Tigers and poker-playing crony of President Harry Truman, entered the picture. The CIA came aboard and took charge. The escorting boat would be Bill Pawley's yacht, the Flying Tiger. The Russians would be photographed on board by a Life magazine camera man. Henry Luce would see that their revelations reached the world.
"...What happened to the Cubans who were offloaded from the Flying Tiger, heavily armed with ClA-supplied weapons? We know that the Pawley yacht weighed anchor ten miles to sea from the port of Baracoa in Oriente Province on the night of June 8, 1963. Three CIA people kept machine-guns trained on Bayo and his Cuban commandos as the latter piled into the speedboat that was to take them to shore (Warren Hinckle and William W. Turner, Deadly Secrets, p. 194). Weapons were aimed at the Cubans because the CIA considered the possibility that they were Castro agents and that the operation was an ambush.
"...The commandos vanished into the night. Pawley saw to it that a Catalina flying boat search the skies for them until a week had elapsed. The generally accepted theory is that their secret purpose had been to get modern arms with which to kill Castro, but that they had been intercepted and killed or captured in a firefight. A year or so after the tragedy, Bill Pawley told me he believed that the men never landed. When they boarded the speedboat, he warned them that it was dangerously overloaded and urged them in vain to take rubber rafts aboard. Pawley heard a large freighter pass between the Flying Tiger and the shore. He believed that the Cuban boat was swamped in the freighter's wake and that the men drowned.
Was their secret purpose to get CIA arms with which to kill Fidel Castro? This is the conclusion researchers have arrived at, but it seems to me illogical. When I was approached to find a yacht and meet the defectors at sea, there was no mention of sending armed commandos ashore. Nor did I have any access to assault weapons nor did Martino have any reason to imagine I would be willing or able to supply them.
The source of guns was the CIA and Bayo and his companions had made it abundantly clear that they distrusted the agency and wanted to have nothing to do with it.
When the plan mushroomed to comprise a Cuban commando force, heavily armed by the CIA with weapons, none of which was, of course, of US origin, plans may well have changed. Assassination? Mere havoc and sabotage? We will probable never know.
A LITTLE KNOW SIDEBAR TO THE FLYING TIGER:
Nathaniel: Perhaps I can shed a little light on a few matters I know about first hand:
I enjoyed your paper. It was informative and brought up some very good points.
However, there are few matters that I would like to establish for historical content.
John (Martino) had also talked with William Wyland of the State Department (March of 1963) and he had been sent by State to see a Tim Simmons (cut-out) to fund the operation. (Simmons was assigned to the CIA's Covert Action Group (CAG) of the Miami Cuban Desk) Simmons meet with Wild Bill Harvey and his associate who told Simmons to tell Martino to forget the operation. The CIA was involved in another operation and these activites of Martino and his group would "Compromise" a(CIA's) on going operation; code name "Pawalla". ( Ref; FBI-105 76xxx file and 62-2116-12)
Martino then (later) early April meet with Wm. Pawley for funding and support. This was the begginning of the "Flying Tiger affair. Pawley used his influence and contacts to get the green light from the CIA for this small "independent" operation. Pawley was used as a 'cut out' by the CIA and a buffer for the Cubans involved because they did not trust the CIA or Miami Station. Harvy was convienced to sign off on the operation and hold the other operation back for two weeks. This he did. Ref; xxx FBI 105-xxxx declassified 1997
"... What happened to the Cubans who were offloaded from the Flying Tiger, heavily armed with ClA-supplied weapons? We know that the Pawley yacht weighed anchor ten miles to sea from the port of Baracoa in Oriente Province on the night of June 8, 1963. Three CIA people kept machine-guns trained on Bayo and his Cuban commandos as the latter piled into the speedboat that was to take them to shore (Warren Hinckle and William W. Turner, Deadly Secrets, p. 194). Weapons were aimed at the Cubans because the CIA considered the possibility that they were Castro agents and that the operation was an ambush.
The commandos vanished into the night. Pawley saw to it that a Catalina flying boat search the skies for them until a week had elapsed. The generally accepted theory is that their secret purpose had been to get modern arms with which to kill Castro, but that they had been intercepted and killed or captured in a firefight. A year or so after the tragedy, Bill Pawley told me he believed that the men never landed. When they boarded the speedboat, he warned them that it was dangerously overloaded and urged them in vain to take rubber rafts aboard. Pawley heard a large freighter pass between the Flying Tiger and the shore. He believed that the Cuban boat was swamped in the freighter's wake and that the men drowned.".[/B]
For the sake of time and space I'll step in here:
I was one of the pilots of the PBY. ("Galloping Sue".) It belong to "Texaco" The PBY Catalina Galloping Sue, was based at Miami International Airport and sometimes parked at Marathron Florida, across from Jack Tarrs resort hotel. (Ref; Martino/Plumlee FBI 105-xxxxxx Cin xxx declassified FOIA 1997)
I will state the following: The group was not ran down by a frighter. They did make it to shore. We received their radio contack through radio Swan. Their code message was as followes: (From a song of the time Poinsetta (sp) these are the words and what they meant:
"Poinseatta-- your branches speak to me of love...Pale moon casting shadows from above...". The Flying Tiger had received this transmission from the beach. It meant: ABORT! ABORT!. The small band were captured by Castro's men on the beach shortly after that and the raiders had signaled the Flying Tiger to leave the area.., a patrol boat was paceing toward them in the darkness. They left.
Three days later Pawley, and two of the Cubans who had stayed on board the Tiger (who were supposed to go on a type of second landing with explosives) received another radio signal from the beach. It was thought this transmission was sent by Castro's men on the beach drawing them back into Cuban waters.
Pawley called Marathron for the PBY and another boat known as the WindJammer II. A rescue mission was planned using the WindJammer as bait. THe Wind Jammer would drawn the Patrol crafts away in a chase. The PBY would go into a "Cove" not far from where the first landing party had landed. They would use their code light flashers in hopes of finding any one hiding out in case some had not been captured.
(the following details are still Classified TS COM SEN)
Rough Recap:
When the PBY got to the LP (landing point) and a rubber raft was sent the 200yards or so, to the beach, the landing party found the bodies of three of the raiders. They had been drawn and quartered, throats slit and a note pinned on their bodies. Bayo was not one of them. We removed the notes and loaded the bodies in the raft and took them back to the PBY and home. The CIA shut the book and Pawley was told another story as to the final fate of his raiding party. I told Pawley the story a few years later a little before he died.
John never really knew what happened to this part from the Flying Tiger. We talked about it briefly one day in 1991 whenI was down in Miami on another matter. We decided we would not talk about it again.
How do I know these things? I was there. I thought you might like to know a little unknown matter, for it too is a part of history. Not nice.. but true. There is more... much more... but I will leave it at this point for now. I am sure the wrath of God and the gate keepers of experts will now pounce on me from above and scatter my ashes to the winds.
Thanks for the fine paper. Tosh
-
Thanks James and Al,
I just found this post of 1998 on Google.
william galmor wrote:
>
> I read somewhere that in the early 1970's a spent rifle cartridge was
> found on roof of building across the street from the book depository. Was
> this ever investigated?
The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (
as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the
rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in
a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the
cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"
The Twin Cities Arsenal is located in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I talked
with three engineers from the arsenal back in 1992 about the munitions
they loaded there. All three, in separate interviews, said that a sabot
round for that cartridge required special equipment that was ONLY
available at USArmy munitions plants; that sabots could not be hand loaded
into that type of cartridge until the early seventies when the equipment
first became available; that none of them were ever aware of special
rounds being loaded at the TCA, though it was possible. I asked if it
would necessarily require records and each said that ALL operations at the
Arsenal required records-- but getting to them was very difficult since
the plant was then being decommissioned.
In seven years the plant still is not fully decommissioned. I talked to a
USA Major there last year who said he knew the plant's history pretty well
and he didn't believe a special load would have been done there. He said
the only place it could have been made was in a special division of the
arsenal at St. Louis Missouri, which was known for engineering special
rounds and weapons. He was the only person of the four who asked why I
wanted to know about such rounds. When I told him it involved the JFK
assassination He refused to talk to me anymore.
Go figure....
The question a sabot round being fired at the motorcade has been around
for a long time. from what I recall, the wound to Connally's back produced
a "probability cone" which included the DRB. Anyone?
Claims by the ammo "experts " out there that such a round could not
maintain the needed stability and accuracy for a shot from the DRB seem
true enough. However, in talking to a USR sniper and an ex Green Beret
"hunter", both men said not only were such rounds possible, they had used
them.
Craig Roberts, you out there?
I was told Mary Ferrell and Jim Marrs are the experts on the history of
the cartridge. Gary probably knows a lot about it, too.
Dix
I'll put this into 'what its worth colume'.
In 1991. I was in Dallas, at the plaza, and a few city workers were fixing some sprinklers and generel landscape maint.
I found my scribbled notes from then:
I ask one of the workers: "... Have you ever found anything interesting in the ground when you have been working and digging around the Plaza?..".
I got a laugh from two of the workers.
"...I found four 22 shells and five bullets all scattered around here over the years..". He motioned with his hands and laughed. 'Tim, here found two 50cal bullets burried in the ground over threre'. He pointed to the north Knoll. "..Jay caught a guy dropping lead fragments around the ground next to the curb. He ask him to leave. Just last week we found three shell casings near the fence.. they were from a 38. Seems people like to plant things here in the plaza.., maybe they want it to grow...". They all laughed and went back to work. I said "Crap", and went to Love Field.
In reply to various private Emails: (from Tosh)
Wim and all;
I am not saying anything about anyone or their research. "Evidence has been planted in the Plaza over the years, for whatever reasons". ANYTHING that has surfaced in the past 30 or forty years is subject to question; including my story. Thats all. You can Read into what I say ,anything, all you want... The fact still remains 'Evidence has been planted and manipulated over the years for whatever reasons"... I don't know... have no way of knowing anything for sure.
In fact I have gone as far as I can go on all this Kennedy stuff,,, Its nothing but speculation at this point; about everything.., no factual research or anything constructive forth coming in reference to anything, or anything, I think I know. So I am taking my bat home; leaving the ball park. I will not play this game again... its going nowhere... Have a good one.. I wish you and all the best on your research. I can not help you or anyone anymore... time to move on and let the past bury itself... Its obvious everyone has their own answers to that day... I also wish them the best in their efforts to find the truth.
I have kept my word... I posted my paper... stay around in this mess to answer a few questions, like I said I would, which has led to only to more speculations and opinions, and resentments..., and now its time to live my life and move on. I'm gone. Out'ta here.... Think and say what you want about me..."Tosh has left the building" (or the ball park..,) The best to all who search for truth. Your Friend, Tosh
-
This position is about two or three feet higher than the south edge of the parking lot.
Tosh,
Did you mean to say the north edge of the south parking lot (the Plaza side)?
Tim
Tim: Yes 'north' edge (or better-- the north west corner of the parking lot. The rail road tracks are about four feet higher than the parking lot itself. The bridge part that slants toward the parking lot is about two feet higher than the parking lot corner.
-
"A few years ago, a friend and I set of a fircracker on the southside of the tripple underpass.., about where we thought a shooter would have shot from. We watched the people who were standing around the kill zone and on the north knoll... They ALL first looked toward the north side of the underpass and some started walking that way. I found that interesting and then Dallas's fineist came and politely ask us to leave."
Tosh,
You've indicated many times you and Sergio were standing on the south knoll near the south end of the underpass during the shooting. You would have been within a stone's throw of the shooter if there was one in that position, yet you've said you heard a shot from the north knoll. The photos of the south knoll are few and of poor quality to say the least, but I don't recall seeing anyone there. You've indicated that you were sent to abort the assassination. A simple call to the Secret Service by whoever "sent" you would have aborted the motorcade. If Al's scenario is plausible, and I think it is, there is more to your story than meets the eye. Besides you and Sergio, was there a third person with you?
RJS
RJ: I have said many times we were standing on the south knoll near the sidewalk in line with the light poles next to the forked tree across from the 'kill zone' (south) That is approximately150 feet (east) of the south edge of the tripple underpass. I have never said " we were near the south end of the underpass", when the shoots were fired..". Also I never said "...I heard a shot from the north knoll...". I have always said, I felt, a shot came from the left of our position. That would make the shooter at the south end of the underpass, around the northwest corner of the parking lot or on the railroad tracks. Why is it so important to clutter what I have said. I think you should re read what I have certified.
And to your statement; "....a simple call to the Secret Service...". is a little simplification of speculation on your part. Either you are not versed in the real facts that lead up to that day are there is another reason for what you are indicating. " You do not recall seeing anyone there...". But you have just indicated to me that you were looking in the wrong place.., again indicating that we Sergio and I were not on the south knoll at all, thus implying I am not telling the truth of that day. Thats fine. But RJ get your facts straight as to what I have said before you try to establish you beliefs as facts.
If you are going to call me and imply then lets level the playing field and stick with the statements I have made and not drift into speculations based on wrong interpretations. "There is more to my story than meets the eye". Yes there is. That is why I am documenting and attempting to set the record straight when people say I said something I did not. To me it seems some want to lead me off into never never land, instead letting me document and say what I have to say about that day and let it stand on its own merits. I am beginning to suspect there is malice in this rather than simple misunderstandings.
-
Thanks James and Al,
I just found this post of 1998 on Google.
william galmor wrote:
>
> I read somewhere that in the early 1970's a spent rifle cartridge was
> found on roof of building across the street from the book depository. Was
> this ever investigated?
The cartridge was a .30-30 hull found by an air-conditioning repair man (
as I recall) on the top of the COunty Records Building at the base of the
rampart overlooking Dealy Plaza. The cartridge was supposedly crimped in
a way that suggested a sabot round had been used in it. The seat of the
cartridge was stamped, as I recall "Twin Cities Arsenal, 1954"
The Twin Cities Arsenal is located in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. I talked
with three engineers from the arsenal back in 1992 about the munitions
they loaded there. All three, in separate interviews, said that a sabot
round for that cartridge required special equipment that was ONLY
available at USArmy munitions plants; that sabots could not be hand loaded
into that type of cartridge until the early seventies when the equipment
first became available; that none of them were ever aware of special
rounds being loaded at the TCA, though it was possible. I asked if it
would necessarily require records and each said that ALL operations at the
Arsenal required records-- but getting to them was very difficult since
the plant was then being decommissioned.
In seven years the plant still is not fully decommissioned. I talked to a
USA Major there last year who said he knew the plant's history pretty well
and he didn't believe a special load would have been done there. He said
the only place it could have been made was in a special division of the
arsenal at St. Louis Missouri, which was known for engineering special
rounds and weapons. He was the only person of the four who asked why I
wanted to know about such rounds. When I told him it involved the JFK
assassination He refused to talk to me anymore.
Go figure....
The question a sabot round being fired at the motorcade has been around
for a long time. from what I recall, the wound to Connally's back produced
a "probability cone" which included the DRB. Anyone?
Claims by the ammo "experts " out there that such a round could not
maintain the needed stability and accuracy for a shot from the DRB seem
true enough. However, in talking to a USR sniper and an ex Green Beret
"hunter", both men said not only were such rounds possible, they had used
them.
Craig Roberts, you out there?
I was told Mary Ferrell and Jim Marrs are the experts on the history of
the cartridge. Gary probably knows a lot about it, too.
Dix
I'll put this into 'what its worth colume'.
In 1991. I was in Dallas, at the plaza, and a few city workers were fixing some sprinklers and generel landscape maint.
I found my scribbled notes from then:
I ask one of the workers: "... Have you ever found anything interesting in the ground when you have been working and digging around the Plaza?..".
I got a laugh from two of the workers.
"...I found four 22 shells and five bullets all scattered around here over the years..". He motioned with his hands and laughed. 'Tim, here found two 50cal bullets burried in the ground over threre'. He pointed to the north Knoll. "..Jay caught a guy dropping lead fragments around the ground next to the curb. He ask him to leave. Just last week we found three shell casings near the fence.. they were from a 38. Seems people like to plant things here in the plaza.., maybe they want it to grow...". They all laughed and went back to work. I said "Crap", and went to Love Field.
-
Al,
Isn't it your view that the south knoll shooter was on the overpass, specifically behind the banister on the south end, where it slants eastward toward the parking lot? I believe this is what you have posted previously on the Lancer forum.
Interestingly, there is one significant witness who thinks a shot came from the overpass. At the 1996 December in Dallas conference, Mark Oakes showed a video interview with Dallas motorcycle officer H.B. McClain (he of the the stuck microphone fame), who states, "I think he was shot from that overpass and the picket fence." (Mark Oakes, "Witnesses to History," Kennedy Assassination Chronicles, Winter 1996-97, p. 49.)
Ron
Ron,
This photo is from the ideal trajectory point of the overpass, in which Elm St. is most directly coming toward the proposed overpass shooter's line of sight.
However, there is scant evidence of anyone on the south side of the overpass, in contrast to the numerous "railroad workers" hanging right right above the Elm St. motorcade route.
Tim
Thanks Tim, Al, Ron: Good points. AND Good Pictures!
I think this south shooter was about even with the rail road tracks where the overpass has that south cover hooked wall, which is only a few feet from the (west) cornor edge of the parking lot or perhaps even on the tracks in line with the 'kill zone'. This position is about two or three feet higher than the south edge of the parking lot.
The reason I say this is because this position would be shooting down and direct in stright line with the Limo. If the shooter was at curb side he would be shooting slightly up hill (a low shoot into the Limo through the windsheld) and no cover for escape. I think the escape route was over the railroad tracks.., the same route (except further south of us) as Sergio and I left the Plaza. At the time there were weeds and a vacant, muddy parking area at the base of the railroad hill. (west side of tracks-- cover all the way down to Industrail Blvd.)
-
Tosh
Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner.
Who would you ask?
Steve Thomas
Steve:
An FOIA request worded very specific. The Texas Adj General Office at Camp Mabre, Austin Texas. Fifth Army archives in reference to the 4th Army Reserves located at Dallas Love Field, before the 4th it became part of the 5th Army. I think this would be at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Trace the Navy ONI when they were located at Bauchman Lake, Dallas Texas, or Naval Air Station, Grand Prairie, Texas.
I think digging deep into these lost or misplaced files would pay dividends. The normal routing through the FOIA and searching the NAAR or Military Personnel Records Center at St Louis MO. have long been purged and that is a waist of time.
In order to get to new evidence pertaining to the Kennedy matter, or 112th MI, you have to go to alternate sources which requires a lot of leg work and time. It was designed that way. The government does not destroy anything it just goes into a black hole somewhere.
-
John,
Tosh,
I will have to take your word on it that the CIA has changed a great deal and their are honorable people there. I can only relate to a darker history where they utilized operators for their objectives and only the latter got dirty and bloody. And when they were called on the carpet, they professed their ignorance and deniability and left everyone else to suffer. That is those who lived through it.
Okay, I am bitter. What would you expect?
Al
Al You are right about the CIA. Sometimes I forget what I too have seen and been a part of. (well not really forget--want to forget-) I guess I should have been a little clearer and said I hope with the current changes it will become a better agency. However, I really doubt that because in order for it to really change for the better it would have to be totallity disband and started all over again. Thanks for the reality check. My point; within all law enforcement good people are trying to do a good job for their community and their country. The CIA has become a political arm of specialized politics and still wallows in their hidden sins. Thanks again
-
Tosh,
First of all I want to nominate Wim Dankbaar for the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't know who is in charge of that but I want to be serious and let you know I'm sorry for going off on you and your past. I'm really happy you are a Christian and I mean that with all my heart. This is a very tricky place to know whom your real friends and enemies are. I don't think you are an enemy of the truth and it would be good if you and Jimmy had a man-to-man talk. You need to talk to Wim. He has met me and has heard my heart. He can tell you I doing all this for the right reasons. He called me and we had a good talk today.
Pam
No problem. But if you have to say things, then get it right. Have Files send me his service number for starters. Then you set up a face to face meeting with him and be sure and tell him the reasons I am coming to see him. It is not to challenge him. Its to ask him some very spacific questions which require some very spacific answers. If he is true, then I will know it and he will know it. Its that simple. I have not intended to offend you. If he is not who he says, then he has offended you and violated your trust and that would be between you and him. Be up front with him and let him know my feelings at this point. Until this can be arranged have him give you his service number and the dates of service. That would be a good start. The best to you.
-
Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence.
In his HSCA unpublished testimony, Col. Jones said that he had been contacted early in the afternoon informing him that a person named A. J. Hidell had come to the attention of the authorities. (He thought that it was because Hidell had been arrested, but couldn't be sure)
(I thought that part of his testimony was very interesting.)
Jones said that he checked his card index and checked the name A. J. Hidell...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0020a.htm
That all sound kind of innoucuous, but I've been doing a little reading about the 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Same Houston. Here is an exceprt from a book by Morton Halperin, et.al. entitled, The Lawless State:
"In July 1969, the Department of Defense opened a new war room in the basement of the Pentagon. Staffed by some 180 people and packed with all the latest equipment -data processing machines, closed circuit television, teletype networks, elaborate situation maps-the new operation was a marvel of military technology. The most striking aspect, however, was not the imposing technology, but the purposes that were being served. This was not a regular command center but a very special operation-a "domestic war room," the headquarters of the Directorate for Civil Disturbance Planning and Operations. It was the coordinating center for the Pentagon's domestic war operations.
The office, now known as the Division of Military Services, played a central role in the military's widespread intelligence operations against the American people, a sweeping campaign of civilian surveillance which ultimately affected more than 100,000 citizens. In the fall of 1968, there were more Army Counter-lntelligence Analysis Branch personnel assigned to monitor domestic citizen protests than were assigned to any other counter-intelligence operation in the world, including Southeast Asia and the Vietnam War.' In the later part of the 1960s and early 1970s, 1,500 army plainclothes intelligence agents with the services of more than 350 separate offices and record centers watched and infiltrated thousands of legitimate civilian political organizations. Data banks with as many as 100,000 entries each were maintained at intelligence headquarters at Fort Holabird, Maryland, and at Fourth Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston, Texas."
According to Jones' testimony, "From 1960, I attended and completed the advanced intelligence course at Fort Holabird, Maryland. He was then assigned to Nuremburg Germany. (Would he have worked or met with Edwin Walker?)
He came back from Germany and was assigned to Fort Sam Houston from June, 1963 to January 1, 1965. He was reassigned to Fort Holabird. He served there for 18 months and then back to the 112th for another seven months.
This guy certainly was at the center of domestic counterintelligence work.
Steve Thomas
He also worked with Capt. Edward G Seiwell 4th Army Reserve who was assigned at Dallas Love Field before he too went to the Specialized Army Unit (SAU) at Ft Sam Houston and then later into the 112th.
Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner. This is a good post. There is a lead here if anyone cares to check it out. Why was an 'Abort Team' sent in? Who sent them?
For over nine years this 'Specialized Army Unit" (SAU) was burried within the Pentagon. It was a very small 'test unit' before it surfaced in 1969, but it had been operational before it became the DMS. Even the CIA did not know about it's early existence. It was solely a military matter. A left over from Ike's days.
President Kennedy found out about this secret unit and ask the CIA about it. They knew nothing. Yes the military was in Dallas that day and they were not in uniform. And other military intel units did not know of their existence, or where they were located..,or why.
-
----- Original Message -----
"...Tosh when you spoke on record for government investigator Rodney Stich this is what you told him:
"The FBI report stated that 'it was his desire to establish his credibility concerning his past activities [working for government agencies and] in establishing contact with the FBI in Arizona in the event he should ever become involved in border-line activities.’ The report stated Plumlee agreed to provide a written report to the Phoenix FBI office. The report stated Plumlee was also flying for Regina Airlines and with Riddle Airlines.
It was obvious for the FBI’s own reports that they knew of the drug trafficking into the United States by the CIA and the military, and that this includes knowledge of the FBI director.” So Tosh it really does not matter who the current or past FBI director is. Same goes for the CIA and DEA. The beat goes on. I respectfully submit you are too smart to play dumb.
"...What's with Tosh's attitude? I think it is called FEAR and NOT WANTING TO GO TO PRISON if he starts flapping off about Jimmy. If Barry Seal was still alive and in prison, Tosh would act this way towards him too. I don't want to aggravate Tosh because of his past.
"He was sent to the Miami area where he became involved in covert operations in Cuba, the Caribbean and Central America. Most of this time he flew guns and ammunition for various factions in half a dozen countries. Plumlee said he was driven by the adventure and paychecks. He explained that in his covert operations he had to keep other federal agencies form knowing about the clandestine and usually illegal operations."
"Plumlee described the operation known as Operation Grasshopper, which was a top secret military operation, and involved such notable drug traffickers as Barry Seal. He described the protection of the government's involvement in drug trafficking by other government agencies, including the Mexican-American Special Operations Group (AMSOG) whose function was to block drug trafficking. He said that Barry Seal was an operative in this group in its early days.
Plumlee described the brutal murder of a former Air America pilot in Quedo Loco Lobo, near Oaxaca in Southwestern Mexico by a Mexican named Pepe Suequez. Plumlee described how the informant described the killing of the American pilot, Maurice Louis Gonzales, was horribly mutilated and left to die in a Mexican prison for informing American authorities of what had happened."
Not nice guys eh? Tosh knows the game well. Jimmy and I are not worth it to him and I understand why. Same for Zack. It isn't worth losing the FBI pension and everything by being a real whistle blower. Jimmy says I give Zack too much credit for being smart. He might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but he surly isn't the dullest. What is the story on Zack's happy handshake occasion with GHWB? Does Kenny know yet that you and Bob were the source of FBI problems and not me? It would be nice to have some help from his friends that think I'm an FBI agent.
Pam
Little lady you got your facts wrong again... the quote you mention about the FBI and my contacting them was in 1976, concerning matters of 1959-63 and had nothing to do with drugs of the 1970 or 80's. I was asked to contack the FBI in 1976, by senator Berry Goldwater's security advisor in reference to John Roseli and my safety, because of what we did in the sixties. I flew for Riddle and Regina in the late fifties and early sixties, not in the 70's and 80's.
Operation Grasshooper was an UC operation and 23 Customs, CIA, and DEA, personal were found to be on the cartel's payoff... not the whole Customs, CIA, and DEA.. Its time to get your facts together before you lead a new generation astray with false research. I have said many times that the CIA personal in this operation were involved with the drug running for profit... They were caught and dealt with by their own, which is still classified... and that was also not a fun sight. It was another 'Bloody Mess'. They repented of their deeds before they saw their maker. Others should have followed but they went to jail and became born again. Some are out now and back to their old haunts and that is not going to Church like they did while in lock up.
You are mixing apples and oranges and trying to create strawberries. It will not work with me. I see you and Files as Fraud. If you are not part of that, then you have been Con'ed. In my book there is no other way to say it. Do you want me to see Files face to face? I will be glad to do that. I have some very spacific questions to ask him.. No more, he said, they said.., I said BS.., just Facts... specific statements.
What is Files military Service Number? What was his rank? What was his name? Thats; Name; Rank: and Serial Number. Every Vet knows that. What year? For some reason you are short of facts and long on wind... What are the names of the operations that J Files work with? Where were they located? north, south, east, or west? What country? Were they in the jungles? on the mountain tops.., on the beaches? Where? I need specifics from you and him. Not smokey things which have been written about in third rate books and articles.
I am sorry if this offends you. I am not afraid of anything. I fly with the banner of Christ and I am alive.., for that I am thankful. I've paid my dues in that crazy world of dark shadows and I resent 'wanta bees' intruding into my world, to make a buck off dead people and write half assed books about things they no nothing about, hiding under the sheet of truth for profit.
Bob Vernon
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by William Plumlee
Sorry to hear you are leaving the Forum. But, I for one do understand. I want to thank you for what all you have contributed and the support you have given me and my story. I thank You. You are a good historian, something to be proud of.
However, another matter has came to my attention which proves there are really sick people out there. And they, for whatever reasons, think they should intimidate and rule what others think and say. History has had them and their back again, on this forum trying to burn our books. The world is full of these idiots and zealots. If they can not get you to see things the way they want them seen or said, then they try to enact Fear and threats, talk loud, and use foul language and tell lies to boost their on self worth as seen by themselves.
I was not going to post the following. I was just going to ignore it and pass it of as another nut case. But in view of the attacks on this forum and attacks on others in reference to their OWN research and to some parts my personal story, I now think I should send a signal to whomever:
The following Email has been turned over to law enforcement. I have been told, this email was sent from a library on the west coast yesterday.
I do not know if it has been posted on the internet.
COPY (the original with all the tracing numbers is with Law enforcement.
"...... Dear Mr. Plumbee, Novmber 30 2004
If you continue to post the things yo post after you have been warned then there is no hope for yhe safey of you are yours. We have tried to be your friend but you make it inpossible. Just because you have done the things you have done for the CIA does not give you the right to expose them to the world. You had a real problem years ago in Colorado, but if you keep on in the direction youare going then I can no longer be responsible for those who are the gatekeepers as you call them. You Texas friends can not help you now. your in our sandbox and you xxxx ass belongs to us now because you continue to spread your lies about me and others this goes for all your friends to. we no where they are and how to get next to them without them knowing about it. Singed YOU KNOW
Now my reply to this ASXXOLE if he reads this forum. Kiss my Asx... take you best shot you coward. I have dealt with your kind for a damn long time. You have now cross the line with me. I too, know how to play these crazy games. I would be damn careful for now on if I were you. Keep reading my post you coward. You might learn something about freedom and democracy.., you puke. And the name is spelled PLUMLEE, TOSH. Lets get it on you coward.
MY REPLY TO YOUR SURRENDER THREATS? NUTS