William Plumlee
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Posts posted by William Plumlee
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This sums it up:
----- Original Message -----
"...... The Justice Department and the FBI are all part of the problem – not the solution. (Tosh, you should know that by now).....".
Pam
I have a lot more respect for the FBI, now that J Edgar Hoover is gone. There are damn good people, men and women, working within the FBI now days and that goes for the CIA also.
Of course everyone in jail is innocent and its law enforcement's fault they are there.
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Here's a question in general to all of the forum:
Why are all these names redacted? Why were all of these files on Plumlee classified for over 20 years? What is there to hide?
At least this tells you there must be some potential damage in the information that Plumlee was providing.
Wim
Remember there are two sets of documents (342 pages declassified in 1981 that went to the HSCA. And another set of files 120 pages that did not go to the HSCA.
Also note: when the FBI stated that I was in jail in for checks.. no checks were found and there is no court records of check charges in the cities they claimed. Why?
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Tosh,
Who was the the couple (man and his wife) talked about in this document?
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi4.PDF
And what was the (redacted) name of the ship docked in Florida was it the "Rex"?
Could the couple be Claire Booth Luce and Henry Luce?
And who was the man with the (redacted) code name, talked about in the last paragraph?
Wim
No it was not the REX. I think it was the "Wind Jammer" or the ". Not sure.Thore" I think the boat registrations would help you there.
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Tosh, I saw that you flew Marita Lorenz also? What for and on whose orders?
Wim
I also flew Liza Howard to interesting places. But thats another story.
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Who are the two redacted names, in this document :
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi5.PDF
that were "bird dogging" Roselli and were aware of every move he made?
They must have rather long names. Was it the Farentello brothers? Or Ignacio Novo Sampoll and Guillermo Novo Sampol?
Please don't tell me you can't recall.
Wim
The FBI was "bird dogging" Roselli. He even had a double to throw them off so we could fly to various places in Fla. CA and NV. Some of the names were extreamely interesting to the FBI. Thats why Hoover, himself felt he had to 'shield these names from reports. Not bad for a young boy who embellishes his stories and was only a low class 'check writer'. Right? None the less they (FBI) classified these files for over 22 years. WHY?
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Tosh,
Who was the the couple (man and his wife) talked about in this document?
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi4.PDF
And what was the (redacted) name of the ship docked in Florida was it the "Rex"?
Could the couple be Claire Booth Luce and Henry Luce?
And who was the man with the (redacted) code name, talked about in the last paragraph?
Wim
Wim: I have a good idea who they are but its been so long that I am not sure of a lot of these names that have been blocked out... must have meant something the the FBI at the time. If the information was not creditable then why were they blocked out? I am not anywhere near any of my old files and I really can't recall some of these names at present.
I think I will not speculate as to who any of these people are. And too, the names I do know I think it best to save for law enforcement if they want them... in some cases these cases are still open cold cases. It would not be fair to them to make the names public at this time. I'm sure some will say I never knew the names, but they were blocked out when I told the FBI the names... kind of like a catch 22.. Right. Sorry, I can't be more spacific on these maters at this time....
Tosh
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Tosh, I think it is important to make your points in a simple way.
Correct me if I am wrong:
The point is that by far not all the files that were made available to you upon your FOIA request, were NOT released to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. This SHOULD have been done of course to allow the HSCA a truthfull and fair investigation.
A second point is that a number of FBI files that WERE released to the HSCA have all the looks of having been tampered with.
A third point is that researchers (including those with sincere intentions) are likely to make erroneous conclusions about your credibility, for example by concluding that you were in jail (while you were NOT in jail in reality) at times when you were in effect involved in covert operations.
Wim
Your right Wim. However when I have stated these points before, I have been told "Where is your proof?" Do you have anything to prove what you say? I don't know how to keep it simple without posting the documents and pointing WHERE the FBI withheld from the HSCA. .,and ask why?
I know nobody really reads the documents, because they have been around for years, but when I state what is in them, then I am told its to complicated to get into.
Point point being; if there is just one or two conflicting points regarding me and my record, what does that say? And why was it done? Why did the 1981 released documents to the HSCA come from the FBI and J Edgar Hoover himself? However the 1993 FBI documents were not released from the Director of the FBI. Does this not indicate selective released or not? If it does then I have to ask; WHY?
Another point. Why was my FBI information and files classified in the first place? FBI has indicated (in these first files of 1981 Hoover released) that I was not a creditable source and I contacted them with a wild story? Then WHY were both files CLASSIFIED for over 22 years? And one set of files were never released to the Church Committee or the HSCA? I guess they were just confused and made a mistake. Also keep in mine that these posted pages are only a very small portion of the 400plus pages which have been posted. I was trying to keep it brief and simple.
Thanks Wim: I appreciate the fed back...
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Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are. Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies.
Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.
Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.
My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."
NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.
You got it little one. Have a good Thanksgiving
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Thanks Tosh, nice thing to say. I'm sure if Paul were here today he'd slap you on the back and whisper to
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NOTE: For anyone interesting in taking the time to open up the following links I think you will find the information more that interesting in reference as to how J.Edgar Hoover obstructed Justice in withholding inportant files from investigative committees, namely the HSCA:
Note: I was asked by Senator Berry Goldwater and his security advisor, Mr Lombard(sp), in 1976, to contack the FBI because of the information I had discussed with them in reference to John Rosellie's safety, and my safety. The information I had received, about a threat on Rosellie and myself, had been obtained from Roselli's attorney because I had been Rosellie's pilot on a few occausions and I was being warned about my safety in case something happened to Roselli before he could testifie to theUnited States Senate again. This was in late June and early July a few weeks before Roselli was reported missing on July 23, 1976.
I was asked by the FBI to please write down in proper format what we had discussed previously on the telephone.
In reference to this matter, there are two different sets of FBI files on William Robert Plumlee. One set 342 pages were released to the HSCA; 1978, while the other 120 pages (Plumlee/Rosellie; 62-2116 file) was not released to the committee. This other file was not declassified until 1997. This file was withheld from the HSCA(1978) by J Hoover and the Department of Justice.
A careful review of these pages will show how J Hoover withheld information contained within FBI files from the HSCA as well as other investigative committees:
The following 120 pages were declassified in 1997, and released FOIA in 1999, but were not available in 1978 to the HSCA. The other set of FBI files, 342 pages, ref; FBI 105's and 26 fileswere released to the HSCA in 1978 as stamped on the pages. They were declassified and released by FOIA to Barnard Fensterwald and Gary Shaw in 1981.
These files are in PDF foremat and may take awhile to load if your on dail up.
Thess 120 pages were not released to the HSCA in 1978. They were declassified in 1997 and released FOIA in 1999. The HSCA did not see these files or the references made to Roselli.
The following 342 FBI pages were declassified in 1981. They Were released to Barnard Finisterwald Jr. and Gary Shaw in 1981. The classified documents were released by J Hoover to the HSCA in 1978 for review. The following are only a small portion of the total files released.
Of all these pages only a very small portion are available to researchers. Notice the stamping and notes where these 1981 declassified files went to in 1978 while they were still classified. Also note that the other set of FBI files of 1997 do not have the stamping because they were not supplied to the committee. Also note how the first set of files (1981) have been slanted to discredit Plumlee and how the second set of files differ on the Roselli Plumlee information because they had remained classified top secret, National Security Matter as found stamped of a few of the pages. Notice that the 62-2116 file is the same file number as the 62-2116 or Roselli's. (Plumlee/Rosellie 62-2116 FBI)
Notice that Plumle had approached the FBI in June of 1976 as directed by Senator Berry Goldwater's Security (a Mr Lombard of Goldwater's staff) Notice that Plumlee was talking to the FBI about his safety and that of Rosellie three days before Roselli was reported missing. Notice. The FBI came to Plumlee's home on August 5th 1976 (the same day Roselli's body was found) asking him (Plumlee) to tell them everything he (Plumlee) knew about Rosellie. If Plumlee had not mentioned Roselli to the FBI earlier then how did they know Plumlee was talking about Roselli earlier in June 6, July 1, and July 26th, ( the same day Roselli disappeared) and again Aug 5th (the same day Roselli's body was found)
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check2.PDF note; there is no arrest record recorded of an arrest in Ohio for this time frame.
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check3.PDF U.S. Customs said to the FBI that Plumlee was arrested in Columbus Ohio with a plane load of arms bond for Cuba and he was turned over to local authorities in view...". There is nothing about any checks written or local police arresting Plumlee in Ohio. This was said by the FBI..
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REVISED LINKS: click on url
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/toshrequest.PDF note FOIA request for all records
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBIlist1.PDF note reply to FOIA FBI said 'no records'
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbiresponse.PDF
note: FOIA released 120 pages; thess 120 pages were not released to the HSCA in 1978. They were declassified in 1997 and released FOIA in 1999. The HSCA did not see these files or the references made to Roselli.
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi1.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi2.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi3.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi4.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi5.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi6.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi7.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/fbi8.PDF
REVISED LINKS:
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81a.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81b.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81c.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81d.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81e.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81f.PDF notice HSCA stamp 1978
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBI81g.PDF
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check1.PDF note; ..his men had arrested plumlee for attempting to pass a forged check.......".
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check2.PDF note; there is no arrest record recorded of an arrest in Ohio for this time frame.
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check3.PDF U.S. Customs said to the FBI that Plumlee was arrested in Columbus Ohio with a plane load of arms bond for Cuba and he was turned over to local authorities in view...". There is nothing about any checks written or local police arresting Plumlee in Ohio. This was said by the FBI..
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/check4.PDF note; Lab report from thre FBI. "... no checks could be found written by Plumlee...".
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBIlist2.PDF List of FBI files on William Robert Plumlee. Most of thes files were not declassified untill 1981.
http://tosh.jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/FBIlist3.PDF cont of Plumlee files. note files destoryed.
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[quote=William Plumlee,Nov 23 2004, 12:55 PM]The pilot was a cover name "Buck' Pearson (for the record) There were a series of flights from Marathon Florida involving Lisa Howard. They started around mid 1963. A number of cover stories were planted for her protection, as to how she left the USA for Cuba.... The flight was cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West.
Thanks for that Tosh,
Very important information. It has already been examined that the U.N. contacts between Carlos Lechuga and William Attwood probably leaked through wiretaps, but this makes me wonder if the Lisa Howard contacts were what leaked to the anti-Castroites. So by definition, when you say the flight was "cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside Key West," you are referencing Cesar Diosdado, correct?
Tim
Tim; I would have no way of knowing that for sure. But if we had left United States airspace and was tracked by radar picket aircraft, boat or land base radar, coming and going out off and into the ADIZ then we would have been spotted and chase aircraft would have been dispatched from Key West NAS or Homestead AFB. It was a commond practice for Customs to have known something was in the air and it was not a 'boogy", and it was cleared by higher powers. Also note: the recordered Custom flight tracks would be erased for these authorized "overflight" aircraft.
Who would have received this information? I would have no way of knowing those names. (there would be more than one person in on the information or clearance) I know that more than one Custom official knew of our flights although they would not know what these flights were about or who was onboard and why.
I too, think leaks came from the Castro government or double agents in Miami and Cuba. I think international cables had been tapped by the CIA and this put Kennedy's secret mission in jeprody, almost before it got started.
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[ Deleted at Plumlee's request
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P.S. who was the covert pilot? Is there any documentation you could provide as to his Identity?
Thanks Tosh Plumlee
Tosh,
I have no primary documentation that would make me feel comfortable with identifying the pilot. Of course, the pilot himself could simply say who it was....
Tim
Tim Very Good point. I think I can help you on this, although it will perhaps create a fire storm of debate. I have said many times that I would not do this because of the crazies out there in never never land, but because of the in depth research you have done on this matter and others, I decided to make an exception and take the heat.
The pilot was a cover name "Buck' Pearson (for the record) There were a series of flights from Marathon Florida involving Lisa Howard. They started around mid 1963. A number of cover stories were planted for her protection, as to how she left the USA for Cuba. The opening of this Chanel to Castro was said not to be a good one. President Kennedy thought otherwise. The covert operational cover story, in case the information became public. was for example: she went to Mexico. She went by private charter with the State Department, and the likes. She went to France and then Cuba, it was said. If uncovered it would be said " She worked this lead alone and without approval by the administration or ABC"..
She actually left from West Palm Beach after meeting with Kennedy on the first flight and stopped at Marathon and boarded a covert flight for Havana. The flight was cleared by Customs to fly through the AIDZ outside key west. The aircraft was a D-18 Twin Beach N-6800 (if I remember right) At one time Steve Guthrie owned this aircraft and it was based at L.B. Smith Aircraft, Miami International. On another time she left from a place in Bimini, because it was thought that this operation should not be launched from United States territory. The aircraft was a Twin Cessna 310 #97-LL that had been based at Hollywood Florida and belong to Jack Ryley.
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[quote=Tim Carroll,Nov 22 2004, 08:02 AM]
THE "WHOLE BAY OF PIGS THING": FROM DALLAS TO WATERGATE
*I am particularly indebted to Carl Oglesby, whose historical framework has guided me through decades of solitary analysis.
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Tim: I read your paper with detailed interest. This is a fine job of research and your are to be commended. The younger generation would do well to look closely as to what you have submitted. There are many parts contained therein, I am sure, which will become a major part of future historical research. The referenced material is also a tremendous aid to following the paper. Send us more of the same.
P.S. who was the covert pilot? Is there any documentation you could provide as to his Identity?
Thanks Tosh Plumlee
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"....In the course of his reply, Kelley said, “The Dallas Police had some information on him and the State Department had some information in connection with his trips to Russia. The military was supplying information to our headquarters and it was being provided to me at Dallas.....” .
Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence.
Steve Thomas
Very interesting post from the record.
Now we need to look at the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas Love Field. There was at one time a report from Company C 156th Tank Bat. which was relayed to 112th Intel at Fort Sam Houston which had Oswald living on Beckley for a very short time. They had received other earlier information from a 49th Armored Div. Texas National Guard, a Capt Cook and that information was sent to an ONI unit at Hensley Field Grand Prairie, Texas, requesting information about the status of LHO. This request was made before LHO had lived on Beckley and before he went to N.O. LHO name was on record with ONI before Beckley.
Congressman Tom Downing had received the documents from an 'unknown officer" of the Forth Army Reserve, Dallas. In time this information and documentation was given to a Texas State Representative, in Austin Texas. Shortly after this information was received by Congressman Downing. The hard copy was lost or misplaced shortly before the HSCA was chaired.
The WC did not obtain this information.
Professional researchers need to research the Forth Army Reserve and do a cross check on the names found in the Fourth and the Fifth Army and cross check the ONI Navy field office at Hensley or Bauchman Lake near Dallas Love Field. Something, I think will pop up which could prove interesting.
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Fascinating story Tosh, thank you!
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Tosh,
You wrote:
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Deleted at request of Plumlee
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Tosh, you bring up this character every now and then. You have aroused my interest in his work. Where and when will this material be available to researchers?William Plumlee Posted Today, 01:55 PMQUOTE(Walt Brown @ Nov 18 2004, 08:50 AM)
QUOTE(John Simkin @ Nov 18 2004, 08:12 AM)
On 29th May, 1998, Walt Brown gave a press conference where he claimed that a previously unidentified fingerprint on a box found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository belonged to Malcolm “Mac” Wallace:
Brown presented data showing a 14-point match between Wallace's fingerprint card, obtained from the Texas Department of Public Safety, and the previously unidentified print, a copy of which was kept in the National Archives. The match was made by A. Nathan Darby, an expert with certification by the International Association of Identifiers.
The Texas researchers forwarded their findings to the Dallas Police Department, who passed it on to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Copies have also gone to Assassination Records Review Board, the federal panel created to oversee the identification and release of records relating to the JFK assassination.
Walt Brown is a member of the Forum. I will email him to get the latest on the fingerprint evidence.
Interested parties who did not want to get the typical "Oswald did it alone and don't bother" answer took the print issue to experts at Interpol, and, I'm told, hearsay-wise, that a match was confirmed. I can't prove that, but that is what I was told. Nathan worked or worked/is working on that one print for several years, and he just turned 90.
There is a very good researcher in Austin who predates all the research into the Mac Wallace and Johnson information, including the fingerprint. His files on this are extensive. He remains in the shadows as a 'deep investigator' and has tons of documentation pertaining to Johnson and others pre Washington. I wish he would make his research available to the public. I have talked to him about this. He is very sick now. He is one of the silent warriors in all this research and has paid dearly for his work. His research is a must read. It does not contain opinions or speculations about who killed Kennedy and why. It is document by a chain of evidence which predates the early fifties and encompasses the late sixties and early seventies..
Thanks
Referring to: "His material is a must read". Thanks.
Over the years parts of his work have been released. He gets very upset if his I.D. is made public or sited as the source. He works with documents and does his own leg work.., he does not get into opinions or speculations unles he can throw a document or some other fact in your face. He is very sick now with cancer and some (as well as I) are trying to get him to share his work with the research community. In my eye he is one of the unsung heroes of the research community. His work not only concerns JFK but all the side bars into the Texas political systems which may have lead up to that day. And too, he was there that day in an official capacity. His own story is one I find very interesting and I think should be told along with his research. There is a world of history in his files. I do not feel I should breach his trust by exposing him to the community until he so desires.
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To be close at the fire, surpress and handle evidence, control the aftermath, make sure everything is going right, and if not, take corrective action. This was not yet the age of Internet and mobile phones. Frankly, I believe that if the planners would NOT have been there, a lot more would have gone wrong. (Wim)
Wim,
A covert operation such as this would be carried out by as few persons as possible and they would be the assault team. I firmly believe their were three teams firing on the motorcade in DP and that in itself is a large number considering the size of the plaza.
The planners would hand down the order to a person who would have access to such teams. This person would be provided with the details of the route and it would be passed onto the teams who would then study the area within days of the assault and determine the ambush location and what would be needed for it. In all likelihood, anyone of importance on the planning level would not even know where it would go down.
If it would have gone wrong in DP and the assault would not have been carried out, there would have been plans for another try, as we see Dallas was the third plan in the three week period leading to the assassination. If it would have went bad after the shots rang out, it is my opinion that it would have been too late to correct it and there would have been several dead Dallas Police Officers left in the plaza.
To believe in the look-a-likes as many do, then they would have exposed themselves without cause. And to believe they were the likes of Lou Conein, GHW Bush, Maj Gen Lansdale, etc, is rediculous. The persons in DP involved in this could not be asssociated with the government and would be eliminated within days of the hit. That is reality.
Al[/i]
The previous post should be noticed: It takes one to know one. This was a well planned hit and did not just pop to the surface overnight; an operation ran by a few 'good old buddy' type personal who just decided one day to kill a President because they were pissed. Covert OPS don't work that way.These assault teams, three in all were "shadow personal" to be used once and then past into the voids of lost and none existence operations. There was or is a world out there that the average 8 to 5 personal can even begun to comprehend. We have to look beyond the norm and forget the land of names and faces. These assassins were a special breed. A hit and disappear team; a team drifting through that plaza much like a vapor. Years later these same type teams used to prowl the jungles of southeast Asia and Central America. To find them is like chasing a shadow. By the time you see their hit, they are gone and your left scratching your head wondering which way they went. Thats 'Black Ops" Its a specialty. Some take pride in it even today.
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"..... "It may be true. There's quite an extensive
history on his father's CIA involvement," Mr. Heflet
said. "My client told me that a lot of his dad's
involvement, specifically in the Kennedy
assassination, has been sealed up, and we never may
find out what it was." ....".
Loran "Skipper" Hall was a low grade street informant. He received money from the FBI for tips which often did not check out. He often infiltrated various groups at the FBI's direction and would relay some tid bits of information to them which he thought might get him favors and cash. He was in no way connected with the CIA or had anything to do with direct CIA operations in Cuba or elsewhere, at anytime. The interest which surrounded him was at best fabricated by Hall and others, and inserted into the various investigations that were being looked into by law enforcement because of false stories and plants "cut-outs" of the time.
Often when the FBI or other law enforcement were closing in on his criminal activities, he and those associated with him would cry foul "I'm CIA". It worked sometimes because of the CIA's program not to comment. As a result of the agencies procedure, at the time, various law enforcement agencies would back off until clarifications could be established. As a result of these type on individuals, basically working as an informant, their actions sometimes got good undercover operatives killed or exposed and INTEL operations from that quarter were shut down.
Good men paid the price for this faulty federal program of not screening their informants and withholding confidential matters from them. Tosh
South Knoll; Ballistics, Shot Trajectories
in JFK Online Seminars
Posted
A few years ago, a friend and I set of a fircracker on the southside of the tripple underpass.., about where we thought a shooter would have shot from. We watched the people who were standing around the kill zone and on the north knoll... They ALL first looked toward the north side of the underpass and some started walking that way. I found that interesting and then Dallas's fineist came and politely ask us to leave.