Shanet Clark

THEY ARE SERIOUS ! After I stopped laughing I pasted this off a WASH/POST website: CIA Plans to Shift Work to Denver Domestic Division Would Be Moved May 6, 2005; Page A21 By Dana Priest Washington Post Staff Writer The CIA has plans to relocate the headquarters of its domestic division, which is responsible for operations and recruitment in the United States, from the CIA's Langley headquarters to Denver, a move designed to promote innovation, according to U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials. About $20 million has been tentatively budgeted to relocate employees of the CIA's National Resources Division, officials said. A U.S. intelligence official said the planned move, confirmed by three other government officials, was being undertaken "for operational reasons." About $20 million has been tentatively budgeted to relocate employees in the CIA's National Resources Division from Langley, according to officials. A CIA spokesman declined to comment. Other current and former intelligence officials said the Denver relocation reflects the desire of CIA Director Porter J. Goss to develop new ways to operate under cover, including setting up more front corporations and working closer with established international firms. Associates of Goss said yesterday that the move was also in keeping with his desire to stop the growth of CIA headquarters and headquarters-based group-think, something he criticized frequently when he was chairman of the House intelligence committee. Other CIA veterans said such a relocation would make no sense, given Denver's relative distance from major corporate centers. "Why would you go so far away?" one asked. "They will get disconnected." The main function of the domestic division, which has stations in many major U.S. cities, is to conduct voluntary debriefings of U.S. citizens who travel overseas for work or to visit relatives, and to recruit foreign students, diplomats and businesspeople to become CIA assets when they return to their countries. It was unclear how many CIA employees would relocate to Denver under the plan. Although collecting information on U.S. citizens under suspicion for terrorist links is primarily an FBI function, the CIA may also collect information on citizens under limited circumstances, according to a 1981 executive order. The exact guidelines for those operations are spelled out in a classified document signed by the CIA director and approved by the attorney general. The Denver move, which is tentatively scheduled for next year but has not been finalized, coincides with several other developments related to the CIA's domestic intelligence work. Last week, the CIA and FBI agreed to a new "memorandum of understanding" on domestic and foreign operations, the first change in decades. The negotiations surrounding the memo were highly contentious, with the FBI saying that it should control and approve the CIA's domestic activities, including its pool of U.S.-based assets that have been invaluable in the past to understanding the intentions of foreign nations and groups. But the FBI is having significant problems developing its own domestic intelligence branch and the CIA is generally viewed across the intelligence community as more experienced and skilled at handling foreign informants who eventually return abroad, where the CIA has the lead in intelligence gathering and operations. Both the CIA and FBI are trying to deepen their outreach to U.S. research and academic institutions and to private subcontractors working on major government contracts abroad. Originally, the FBI also pressed to have the bureau disseminate all intelligence reports from sources -- foreigners or U.S. citizens -- living in the United States. It was undercut, however, by the fact that the bureau routinely falls behind in issuing counterterrorism reports and, at the time of the most heated negotiations, in December, the FBI had a backlog of more than 100 reports it had not distributed. In response to questions this week about the new agreement, the FBI and CIA issued a joint statement to The Washington Post. "The FBI and CIA are committed to effective, joint operations to safeguard our nation," it says. "To that end, we are completing work on a memorandum of understanding that will codify our joint operating principals. We are pleased with both the process and the outcome and we recognize that our joint efforts will enhance national security." Under the agreement, the CIA must coordinate its operations with the FBI. The CIA's domestic division has agreed to provide the FBI with more information about its operations and debriefings. One goal of updating the memo was to ensure that the two agencies were not working at cross purposes and were aware if one or the other had already recruited or debriefed someone. It is unclear how a move to Denver would increase the effectiveness of the domestic division's operations, said several former intelligence officials. Colorado has become a major intelligence hub since Sept. 11, 2001. The Denver suburb of Aurora is home to the little-known Aerospace Data Facility. Located inside Buckley Air Force Base, it has become the major U.S.-based technical downlink for intelligence satellites operated by the military, the National Security Agency and the National Reconnaissance Office, according to military and government documents obtained by William Arkin, author of "Code Names," a book about secret military plans and programs. About 70 miles away, the U.S. Northern Command, based at Peterson Air Force Base, in Colorado Springs, is tasked with homeland defense and has been increasing its domestic intelligence work. It could not be learned whether the CIA's Denver plans are linked to the presence of either facility. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5050501860.html I guess that blows Denver's cover ! The truth WOULD set you free, If we were to ever let it into open court.......

RE: TIM GRATZ We all wondered what Gratz, the "critical reporter" was doing in Madison Wisconsin back in the day....now we know.....he was a henchman of Donald Segretti, Karl Rove and various authorized dirty tricksters......Tim Gratz was the guy infiltrating a liberal college town and getting mixed up with the whole ARTHUR BREMER COLSON SEGRETTI WH OPERATION. You have definitely been tumbled, Tim. All your bonhomie and bombast won't get you out of this one, fellow member. You know all this along, that YOU YOURSELF was a published figure in the PLUMBERS 1972 disruptions and agents provocateur actions {Culminating in the shooting of GEORGE WALLACE, Tim?} You should have come clean long ago, the cover up establishes the error, once again. No more Castro did it theories, okay? No more KGB killed JFK windbag schemes, okay? No more world exclusives based on the obscene ramblings of Gerry Hemmings, Okay? Sayonara baby

Thanks, John. Peter Rodino was a major figure in Watergate, and as House Judiciary chairman he established the rule of constitutional law and representative oversight, in the case of Richard Nixon.

I wondered what a "critical reporter" was doing in Madison Wisconsin back in the day....now we know.....he was a henchman of Donald Segretti, Karl Rove and various authorized dirty tricksters......Tim Gratz was the guy infiltrating a liberal college town and getting mixed up with ARTHUR BREMER. You have definitely been tumbled, Tim. All your bonhomie and bombast won't get you out of this one, fellow member. You know all this along, that YOU YOURSELF was a published figure in the PLUMBERS 1972 disruptions and agents provocateur actions {Culminating in the shooting of GEORGE WALLACE, Tim?} You should have come clean long ago, the cover up establishes the error, once again. No more Castro did it theories, okay? No more KGB killed JFK windbag schemes, okay? No more world exclusives based on the obscene ramblings of Gerry Hemmings, Okay? Sayonara baby

Just to keep our marginal attorneys general straight, it was the other K, Kleindienst. Katzenbach was Johnson' stooge. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good catch, Pat, I always get Kalmbach, Katzenbach and Kleindienst mixed up. In reading Stanley Kutlers ABUSE OF POWER, it is very clear that Nixon sent Dean to Tom Pappas and a phony Cuban Committee for the hush money during the Cancer on the Presidency" conversation. Kalmbach and LaRue were the principle bag men for the Hush Money. This whole thing on Arthur Bremer also sheds light on Nixon's concerns about Colson and Hunt. It looks like Nixon had advance knowledge on COlson and Hunt's activities relative to Arthur Bremer and the pivotal GEORGE WALLACE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT

Thanks John I have long heard rumors about Artie Bremer, the Watergate characters and an illegal search/planting trip to his apartment after the near fatal shooting of George Wallace. Reading Abuse of Power by Stanley Kutler, I noticed Nixon's principle area of concern when he talked to Dean and Haldeman in March 1973, was Colson. Colson and Hunt had been involved in bigger things than Watergate, or Ellsburg's psychiatrist's office burglary. And this is it. The Colson/Bremer link, known to Nixon, and that fear was captured on tape. Also "Tom Pappas,"" the Greeks," and a phony "Cuban Committee" was the first place Nixon suggested Dean look for hush money for Hunt and the Cuban burglars. {And as far as Tim Gratz, this is very sad. He participated in some typical YAF gung-ho College GOP stuff thirty years ago, and maybe he's still the clip/file watchdog for the "alternative press". TIM GRATZ theory of Castro and the KGB killing Kennedy is absurd, and his sources, Angleton and Helms via Trento are abysmal .......

Great thread Good mix of facts, theory, narrative and analysis. McCloy, as head of Military Intelligence in world War II would have a strange idea about the proper balance of powers and the status quo of military versus civilian power. Strategic and defense intelligence classification priorities would open them up to EXECUTIVE SANCTION scenarios and DOMESTIC DENIABLE programs. When you say that McCloy and Ed Walker and Max Taylor all had access to the Italian Duce Mannleicher Carcano fascist guard rifles, I think this may be the pivotal fact at the heart of the trail to our JFK ASSASSIN ambush and frame up originators......>>>>>>>>>>> [quote=Jim Root,May 6 2005, 07:04 AM] Stan Perhaps the better question would be, "Who would know that "they" would send anybody to clover it up?" I did not begin reading the Warren Report as a skeptic but became one the more I read. As I said in an earlier post there were, in my opinion, two seperate crimes: the assassination and the cover up. Because the second happened as a result of the first does not mean that the same people participated in both as most people tend to believe. If Oswald had been used as an intelligence asset by any department of the US government there would, arguably, be a reason to cover up that relationship in the same way that a group involved in a coup would want the assassination covered up. It is, in my belief, that in the first case you would have a McCloy and a Dulles willing to participate out of a duty to the nation while in the second case I believe they would be the last people that would want to be involved. This is what is so intriguing about their participation. Dulles and McCloy were Cold Warriors, as such there participation is perdictable. Perhaps a slanted historical perspective can be given that could help to explain my position. After the bombing of Coventry during World War II Winston Churchill had his picture taken in the ruins of the famous cathederal. Years later, after the death of Churchill, we learn that there is a good possibility that the British had information (because they were reading the German Codes) that could have been used to evacuate the city and save thousands of civilian lives. Problem was, if they did evacuate the city the Germans might have realized their codes were compromised. I believe that by having his picture taken at that moment in time, Churchill was allowing history to know that it was his decision to keep the information from the public for the greater good of the war effort and history would pass a positive judgement upon him. Knowledge of the codes or no knowledge of the codes the bombing was going to occur and the war was going to continue. Loss of the "Ultra Secrete" could have ment loss of the war. The Warren Commission could not change the fact that Kennedy had been assassinated. Perhaps they, or at least two, believed they could still use the event to protect a front in the Cold War. Was this action predictable? Perhaps by the "big fish." Jim Root <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You all messing up my thread, dudes. Porter Goss wants to move the CIA out to damn Denver. You know, Denver, where the Pentagon isn't, where the Chinese Embassy isn't, where the White House and foreign consulates aren't, where foreign diplomats don't stay when they are in the United States. I think it is a fabulous idea, maybe the best one since hiring Dr. Sandoz. What will they leave behind by accident? The operational files for the 2004 election? William Colby's last will and testament? The Zapruder negative? Osama bin Laden's cell phone and dialysis machine? What will be left in the old corporate offices after the super flashy transition to new digs in Bronco Town? Robert Novak's security clearance?

Excellent points Mark. I would note that the propaganga devices were used and then fell apart upon closer scrutiny. Oswald's Sovietism. Oswald's Pro Castroism. Oswald's Backyard photos. Oswald's Attempt of General Edwin Walker. Oswalds distance from intelligence and FBI handlers (deMorenschildt, and Hosty) His guilt looked compelling in the context of the national tragedy but barely survived 1964 or the Johnson administration. Thank goodness for Mark Lane and others who could recognize the problems early.

Porter Goss has announced he wishes to uproot the CIA from its Langley HQ outside of Wahington, DC and move the Agency to new offices in Denver, Colorado. Your tax dollars at work....Shanet ..........maybe change the carpet, paint, hang some pictures, but DENVER?.......

Thanks Tim. Members: The argument over Hunt's safe is one of those things that indicts Dean, of course. His criminal misbehavior here is manifest, and it plays into the hands of proponents of the prostitution scenario, i.e., he sanitized the safe concerning the trick book. Pat Gray was in an impossible position. The Attorney General 9Katzenbach was a loyal appointee recently replacing John Mitchell, and Hoover had died. The contest over Hoover's private files probably didn't go the way the top FBI aides to Hoover wanted, and Sullivan was also to die.....Gray did what he did, he destroyed evidence that came out of Howard Hunt's White House safe......Dean must have told him to do it, and that the President wanted it done, capiche?

Sociological, Class, Regional and Generational Critiques of Corporate / Government Accomodations: Where Is Power Found and Wielded, and At What Cost? by D. Shanet Clark I. Politics The question is not indeed what is wrong with Kansas, or what is wrong with the red states, or the United States, that is in many ways the wrong question for a political historian to ask when looking at U.S. history and the late twentieth century political trends and traditions. The question surely is this: what elements of political theory can we engage critically for the common good, what is manifestly possible for a historical political discourse? We ask, who benefits and who wields power? How are structures balanced, and what countervailing structural balances are available? How are countervailing structural checks are employed? Are they employed? Who rules? What are the rules and what role can an individual play? What individuals do wield power? These are not rhetorical questions, these are the vital issues that drive political discourse and historic analyses. What machinery has been developed to distribute advantages in society? And then, what is the interplay between economic and governmental interests? How are they addressed by populations and to what degree is critical oversight forcefully employed in reforming the vital organisms of civil government? If you ask yourself these questions today you might be surprised at how far the political locomotive has strayed from its constitutional tracks, and you may be embarrassed for that country, that country that confuses “rightist,” “white-ist,” and “me-first-itis” with compassion, oversight and a vision for the future of the planet. The reversal of the meaning of “Liberal” is axiomatic in Louis Hartz’s theory. The meaning of “Conservative” reversed itself as well. Conservator, preservator and small government fiscal overseer, that role (and self image) is out of fashion for today’s self styled “conservative.” Public Christian, hypocrite and “inside the beltway” big spender and just a pure tool of corporate messages and agendas, that is in faasion for “conservatives” these days. It goes back to the days of Ronald Reagan on the road for GE, and Dick Nixon running the big Johnson government, the benefits still continue to flow to the political elites that receive federal, state, county and local largesse and the corporate and private family interests that receive governmental quasi-legal indulgences, reprieves, tips and leads in their struggle for liberal bourgeois acquisitions. The interplay of these forces is the heart of American political theory and the purpose of critical approaches is to effect change in this very arena, i.e., civic oversight. Certain theoretical constructs are entertained by Michael Kazin, Lawrence Goodwyn, Robert Weibe, Mary P. Ryan which also address these questions, but fundamental issues are ignored by each and all of these. Issues of generational and regional geographic distributions of ideas still affect political theory, first of all. II. Sociology Ideas of social class as developed by Max Weber and later in the 20th century by Pierre Bourdieu are lacking, for instance. Liesure class theory and the reproduction of elite advantages in the school system is overlooked in these works. While the debate over populism retains its cogency and relevance, the debate over class and sociological self image is not expressed by these writers. Sociology can shed light on history and politics, economics and philosophical arenas; the self image of the various players in society informs political beliefs, behaviour and cognition of political messages. Traditional American political theory has celebrated checks and balances, judicial oversight and the defense of minority interests via structural accommodations and systemic limits. Issues of authenticity, legitimacy and timeless constitutional standards are stressed by this mainstream, if not consensus, group. European cultural approaches, including the work of Edward Said, Pierre Bourdieu, Max Weber and Jergen Habermas now add weight to the critical methods of American political theory. This includes language and discourse analysis, intended to penetrate the hermeneutical practices of socialization, the process where the ego internalizes (to a greater or lesser degree) the norms of the family, immediately seen contemporaries, and distant elites. One’s distance from the non-elites in remote regions is likely to be the weakest link in an American political theorist’s cogitations. For this reason, international, offshore, foreign and alien interests are most likely to be those traded away in any political settlement, the interests of foreign nationals carries a low or negative valence and the class and cultural gulf makes fair transactions unlikely. While foreign, alien and offshore elite political and economic standard bearers may negotiate with American corporate and state/civil entities with some degree of leverage and legitimacy, the actual fate and lifeways of non-elite foreign, alien international players are not of any interest in the decision making process whatsoever. Costs are passed on to less developed populations within the United States as well. Urban areas and largely black and Hispanic areas are deprived of mass transit support, or new housing patterns, suffer unchecked housing displacement, full blown demolitions style “urban renewal” and housing “projects” being neither benign, nor neglectful, but a negative and destructive pair of forces, imposed Federal corporate norms upon hapless urban political units, those of the lowest economic and aesthetic order, (who paradoxically led the art and literate movements). Jane Jacobs approach to urban harmony and political settlements at the local level was the antithesis of American political efforts for planning the Stalinist architectural styles of the federal interstate and downtown planners. When her book overturned that mindset, the WW Rostow approach, the approach of the Nixon and Reagan years, came into the light of urban studies and caused a reaction. Cities are better, now, many of them, because planners know the political theories underpinning Jane Jacobs championing of Greenwich Village. Non-reciprocal socio/economic settlements also haunted and degraded the Ohio Valley and Appalachian mountain communities, America’s domestic interior communities can suffer third-world, neo-colonial style deprivations. Extractive coal and chemical companies (“foreign owned” relative to native West Virginians) pursue the natural resources at low cost. While they privatize the profits, they socialize the costs. Slurry mounds, gaseous and liquid effluvients and stripped mountain rock burden yields up energy profits for the multinationals and large US coal and chemical companies, the pollution, fallout, slag, slurry and groundwater destruction is socialized in such a way to strike the costs off of the corporate account books, pass them briefly through state/civil entities and force the unreckoned costs onto non elite, non self conscious “lower class” populations. Both the elites and the unfortunate locals see this clearly. The cultural capital, literacy and assertive verbal skills that are de rigeur for the corporate ownership and management class is taken for granted as the standard for civil behaviour. The rural and urban denizens of the coal and chemical corridor are fully cognizant of their relative lack of cultural polish, articulateness and ability to command the attention of the rich and powerful. So social class is not only assigned demographically as an objective category based on race, earnings, housing and education levels; it is internalized, the gradations by every member, some “feel” a little higher than their economic figures would show, and some cling to an outsider mentality long after they have risen past the economic median thresholds into the middle class. II. Political Economy Politically this translates into greater consolidation of power, self congratulatory behavior on the part of elites and their generations of offspring. Meaanwhile we see powerless rage and unhealthy behavioural patterns of hopelessness and unemployment by the generational offsprings of the non-elites. As Weber and Bourdieu show cogently, they recognize their position on the power and reception spectrum, and they do not usually teach their children to rise above their level, although individuals are always to make exceptions for themselves in the bourgeois liberal pursuit common to the American self image projection model, the Horatio Alger, native talent, hard work and merit, delusion. This translates into a number of fault lines in the recent political history of the United States. Upper middle class youth rise to positions of elite status primarily by joining forces with corporate interests, those that are actually anathema to the greater share of their regional political population. Attorneys who fight off civil suits from the lung- and brain- damaged chemical corridor residents are an easy product of this algebra. Lobbyists who negotiate mineral rights and eminent domain, mineral corporations that spend millions of dollars to sink objective judges in favor of corporately screened individual. When coal strip mining regulations were recently re-written to allow larger creeks and streams to be destroyed and toxically reduced, the local or “third world” denizens of West Virginia, “the Hillbilly’s in the Hollers” bore the brunt of the new toxic local water and disgorged petrochemical effluvia. If this is a typical scenario for the United States domestically, when energy corporations and local political and economics clash, then how much less the denizens of developing countries fare in the calculus of accommodation. Who sets the parameters? Certainly not the indigenes. Not the local merchant or educated class. Those with the vessels of power do not care for rural Haitians or Guatamalans or Mexicans, and these interests are wholly ignored in the corporate / civil accommodations between American and American-influenced political entities, and their corporate sponsors. IIII. Civil Oversight Multinational corporate mergers and acquisitions are now wholly rampant, unchecked—as Mobil Exxon devours Unocal, we see that the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, which promises Federal countervailing action against corporate mergers “in restraint of trade” is a dead letter, moot, mute and kaputt. With corporate lobbyists occupying the offices of Interior, EPA and state and local planning and preservation offices, the triumph of the anti-New Dealers is evident. We see the clock on anti-trust, social security, deficits and regulated companies turn back to that dangerous time of October, 1929 to March, 1933, when Hoover was a lame duck, No longer will the government intercede for the minority interest, or flex a muscle in pursuit of the greater common good, conservation or sensible transitions in military and industrial strategic norms. In 1960 President Eisenhower warned of a “Military Industrial Complex” being the greatest domestic threat to the US polity. With the Soviet Union gone, U.S defence spending rises? Intelligence spending and outrageous Cold War missile, fighter, helicopter and high tech robot army spending geometrically expands? While the beneficiaries and recipients, Martin, Marietta, Lockheed, combine into great consolidated behemoths, General Dynamics Raytheon and Boeing Grumman, with a political agenda that not only sits on the table it covers the table and allows for no alternate, no oversight, no civilian caveats or balanced budgets. Civil government depends primarily on civil oversight and an educated public using the forces available within the governmental structures to right wrongs and remediate damages. Corporate multinational lobbying ang legal efforts, when sponsored by conservative pro-business majorities in the Senate, House and Presideency threaten the very existence of the planet and the life of rural freedom and liberty and urban minority interests protected by the organic state papers, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. Shanet Clark, Georgia State University History Department 2005

I am a working historian. In my graduate seminar work, I wrote a historiography (history of the history) of Watergate. Stanley Kutler is the leader in the academic study of Watergate, and I am reading his book right now, Abuse of Power. I have read all the principle memoirs and transcripts, and can answer basic questions. Students are welcome to email me at: shanetclark@yahoo.com Watergate is only a short hand term for the abuses of power 1969-1974. Nixon was impeached by the House for abusing the IRS and paying "hush money" and he resigned before the Senate could convict him in an impeachment trial. It has great usefulness as a tool to approach Presidential, Congressional, Judiciary and media in the US............... Shanet Clark Woodruff Fellow of History Georgia State University, Atlanta USA

Gaeton Fonzi seems to be very vigilant when it comes to the terrorist Carriles.

The motive is applied onto Oswald, you see. Lee never says, "Hey I am overthrowing the capitalist aristocracy" He says, "I work in that building...I am a patsy....I havent' been charged with that" and then he tries to call John B. Hurt. The motive comes when you see the pictures and read the biography, you see, it was constructed around him. Minsk, Communist, guns, attempted suicide and the kicker, the "attack" on Edwin Walker. Walker put his neck out for that one but it was essential to the frame. This is the team that put the frame in place and it lead back to the military army staff and joint chiefs, who ran the military side of the joint agencies........ Oswald was a constructed communist, a burn card from the bottom of the deck called "ONI losers" he had defected and DEFECTED BACK. If he had said "I did it for the REVOLUTION" then he would be consistent, as it is he is not alone, he is not a nut, and he is not a gumnan..........

Great stuff John, this guy is a real conspirator. John J. McCloy was also the lead attorney for the Oil Cartel, or Seven Sisters. He lobbied the Federal Government and other international interests for the good of the Mobil Gulf Texaco Esso group. (That in Samson, Seven Sisters 1977) What we are really talking about is large scale domestic and foreign NAZI rapproachemant. The Lucius Clay to John J. McCloy handoff was at the height of illegal infiltration and exfiltration of OLD NAZIS. An ugly tale but only too true, the official Army History I read in the early nineties spelled out operation DUSTBIN where patents were subject to industrial espionage and US military confiscation, ASHCAN, where scientists were de briefed, and brought to work in the corporate, university and military labs in the states. The whole operation was usually called PAPERCLIP, and you can see how easily and often it was abused (if you accept it was legitimate at all). The debriefing and political de-Nazification process held sometimes had to make way for intelligence and military security "Exceptions" An otherwise guilty Nazi would have some anti-communist files, or have a connection to heavy industry, a coal gasification plan or a nuclear equation, and he would pass throug interrogation and political screening under ASHCAN or DUSTBIN. Once the program got rolling, guys like McCloy, Wisner or Alan Dulles could send through agents with the murkiest records and wretched prospects. McCloy had oversight of this. The worst aspect was that the agencies and corporations like GULF and DUPONT had the Nazis working for them in the 1950s and 1960s. General John Vilikashvili's father came through in this program. Numbers? More material is coming out about PAPERCLIP/DUSTBIN 750 used to be the high number the Army would admit to in the War College papers. Bo Gritz claimed 20,000 old Nazis came to the states. I do know that AGFA BAYER GAF BASF HOESCHT the combine known in the Weimar and Nazi era as IG FARBEN was rescuscitated rapidly and the germans went back to chemical industry parity with British ICI and US DUPONT NEMOURS I see old Nazis here in this drug and farm chemical home product industry and especially in engineering, specifically defense engineering. Was it linked to Dallas? Dulles and McCloy's world view was so bent by Berlin aand the OPERATION PAPERCLIP, I think that their vision of executive power and intelligence prerogatives made Dallas thinkable...............

There is a lot of material on the web concerning Project Jennifer. I googled GLOMAR HUGHES and found a ton of conventional material. Thanks

Nobody on this Forum has called Pat Gray smart! The operational files for the Plumbers are the tactical notebooks I referred to. That would include material on the burglary and file theft at Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office. The Liddy Plans for the Democratic Convention. Gemstone, Diamond Head, Topaz and Ruby, the Liddy Plan that Mitchell, Dean and Magruder gave some hedging assent to while giving him $250,000 dollars. So the Plumbers papers were probably there. Gemstone and the White House connected burglary and arson files, probably some good Bebe Rebozo material, cash, some Helms material, some speed, maybe a file on the prostitution ring that John Paisley ran observation on, IDA WELLS desk keys, LARRY OBRIENS keys, a few transmitters and receivers with batteries and a bottle of Canadian Blend. LUCKY LYNDON JUNIOR JAY BERT PECK

John That is very interestering... Colson and Hunt must have had some strong motivation to interced into this, without real motivaton that was a political mistake! Although I am coming over to believe that a great many people spent the spring of 1972 trying to drag some very ugly carcasses into the CREEP/GOP premises. They were either highly motivated by shadowy reasons (money/Vietnam/Dallas) or they were crazy, loco, stupido (this is the consensus view) or they were just following orders from Nixon, Haldeman and Mitchell, the executives. After the Admiral Moorer Yeoman Radford Joint Chiefs of Staff Spy Ring rocked the NIXON WHITE HOUSE you have to look at the relationship between the Military and the civilian leadership. The Military initiated joint operations in the 1960s and 1970s, even more than the CIA did. A\ Al Haig is my choice for DEEP THROAT and chief beneficiary of Military White House power re distribution crisis, which is what happened in 1973-74..........

JIM ROOT Congratulations, that is a very cogent protrayal of your approach. Your theory is the more compelling one, and this executive relationship with Walker by Taylor is the Key. The Key is the Walker attempt, as you know. When we talk about Marina, we are talking Baron George DeMorenschildt. Her testimony is nearly worth something, but not really. No one who has read LEGEND believes that DeMorenschidlt wasn't handling her, and LHO as a side interest to Marina. LHO had other handlers, very detatched, who built a communist, and a psychopath, from scratch. I don't call him the Angleton ORCHID MAN, I call him a burn card a carefully coached and prompted counterintelligence PLANT sent over to the other side, as a minor minor program in the great big COLD WAR. When David Ferrie and the research stringer model ran out, LHO was a hand made home grown, domestically made COMMUNIST. So it was perfest, you take the infantile product of this ONI (Marini intelligents) oxymoronic counter defector program, this sworn communist/ trusted flunky and put him in the bookstore with the italian rifle at the correct time and the rest is a done deal, so yes I think the 1959 defection at Helsinki is a very cogent angle of approach. This is not a lone gunman approach, I know I am looking at OSWALD as a less than fully witting frame up type participant. THrowing this MI6 Admiralty Joint chiefs/joint agency focus on OSWALD is important and key to the whole thing. I am following up on the Fletcher Prouty material, Tosh Plumlee's affadavit and the the ambuscade program of Al Currier. Jim Root's theory forms a large part of my traditional suspicions and current thinking...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lucky Lyndon Junior Jay Bert Peck

tim good point today. the pro cuban independence group of legitimately alienated Cuban Americans did see a great opportunity and closest ally with JFK. How much that supports your theory, though, I am not sure. The variety and range of political spectrum about Cuban American community makes it hard to isolate true threads. USA groups had all the bases covered, lots of manipulation and switching sides. Good opportunity for some very ugly combinations. Original off shore interests, caribean drugs, etc, trafficante and paid agency pilots and pr men, so, the real sense of loss that these core mainstream people had shows a manipulation, against legitimat US Cuban community interests ........thanks best wishes [quote=Tim Gratz,May 2 2005, 08:19 AM] Thanks, Ron, I stand corrected. But my point remains the same that Castro clearly benefited (gained) from the assassination and that those who assert he had nothing to gain are clearly wrong. I think a reply to this could be how could Castro know before the assassination that he would fare better under LBJ than under JFK. But since he knew that JFK and RFK were planning a second invasion and the CIA was planning yet another assassination attempt against him, he really had little to lose, regardless of the unccertainty of his "gain". And it is interesting that exile leaders such as Artime and Oveida immediately recognized after the assassination that their hopes for a free Cuba died with JFK. How did they know that? If we could answer that question we would probably know why Castro himself believed he would benefit from "regime change" in the US. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stan I don't agree. Look at the profiles. They match the head-on shots. Its the same petty criminal, one as a teen age car thief type mug and another of a man in his late thirties early forties getting mugged for the hundredth time after doing time and living on the lamb. His features, what we call the FORWARD ASPECT of Braden's face changed in the interim period, but this is a match. His youthful aspects disappeared, and he took on a middle aged facial slump. He lost a lot of hair, his head is at a different angle--also his nose appears larger in the early one and is faint in the senior photo. It shows what a difficult and EASILY MANIPULATED thing photographic identity is. Thanks for the posts, this looks like the guy in Dealey Plaza with the hat, don't you think? I mean we know Braden got picked up around 1 pm at the Dal Tex and gave a bull3433 story to the Dallas cops about using the phone. Who was the gentleman who was apprehended with Braden at the Dal Tex on 11/22/63? His story mimics and impugns Braden Brading's story, doesn't it? The fact that both of them gave sketchy staged answers that were the same show them to be false and mutually coached. That gentlemen, no matter what name he gave the Dallas Police, was Ted Shackley. What we had at the Dal Tex building was an old school mafia gunman paired with a CIA wet ops honcho, in a H.L.Hunt owned building, known to the Feds for its Uranium Management Company. The Dallas Textile Building brings the mafia and the agencies into the actual triangulation. Charles Harrelson and Chauncey Holt form another team, with a Rubyesque mafioso paired with a trained ops guy. Although he resembles Howard Hunt, and Howard Hunt is otherwise implicated, I don't think Howard Hunt was walked across Dealey Plaza at 2:45 by the cops....it was ID and radio ops man Chauncey Holt with Harrelson, and Frenchie, whom I do not know to ID. Was Braden with TED SHACKLEY? That seemed to be in the lookalike files..... Lucky Lyndon Junior Jay Bert Peck

[Roger Great Facts and Pictures! Thanks for the new material.Two comments It shows a steady degradation of Liggets mind, the 1974 attack and the sexual rage cases seem to be linked to his anxiety on the heels of 11/22/63 and the clean up through 1969. By the mid 1970s He wanted to be caught, thought himselves to be invincible, etc., and all of this is the stress of killing people, like JAY BERT PECK, but the life altering experience of prying the the parietal bone up out of Kennedy's temple, reconstructing the forehead )forward entry wound and generally digging lead out of the dead President. Ligget's death was a classic switcheroo protection program program. His own wife and daughter finger him working in Las Vegas AFTER his death...... He may be still out there (creepy thought) To me the Carousel group, Ruby and the Liggets, show the agencies willingness to engage petty criminals to get there domestic work done and maintain some deniability. They would use these guys, they would rise in a bourgeouise capital society no questions asked, the stress would get too much and the violent and suggestible personality which the agencies liked when they were young later will drive them deeper into irrational behavior, the arson of 1974, in this case. In other words the murder of JAY BERT PECK in 1969 was policy, but the fire was just pure sociopathic breakdown, which is the natural social penalty for government domestic programs that used these guys Ligget, Liggett and Ruby had abig inpact on Lois Liggett and I see no reason to call her a xxxx now, I think she showed civic courage when she appeared and really could not have made it up....strong women appeared on TMWKK to tell the truth, thirty years on.

Stephen Thanks for putting some thoughful analysis out there for the members to consider. I appreciate the real courage that takes. Also, it brought respected member Jack White out of hiding. As the "Magic Christian" Guy Grand used to say in the Terry Southern novel: "Lets make it a little hot for them" Cheers to all, thanks for the great FORUM.