Shanet Clark

History, one thousand years hence, will see a shorthand record of the state-approved coup d’etat. The future’s historians will see a group of World War II-era presidents, followed by the assassination of President Kennedy and right then, almost simultaneously, the rapid ratification of the twenty-fifth amendment to the United States Constitution. Then the futile Southeast Asian land war, the Civil Rights Acts and urban race riots. Other details about the decades will recede, one thousand years from now, the Beatles, maybe, a walk on the Moon - just shorthand survives - in the future historians’ understanding of our United States history. I won’t dig out my T.B. MacCaulay, my Thomas Carlyle, my Tott, Elton, or my dusty old Edward Gibbon for you, but suffice it to say, as one who has read political history, that kings and emperors wrote and re-wrote the record of their illegitimate ascensions, at will and after the fact, thoughout all of our recorded history, across the world. To believe in them makes you a positivist, a sucker, a naïve believer in progress and the State’s eternal accuracy, honesty and diligence. I will not footnote or add a bibliography to this piece. The information you all are aware of, it is public and the facts are well known. I believe the theme, the thesis, the theory I present here follows from the facts, both inductively and deductively. Inductively, it makes sense of all the specifics, all the questionable government acts - and deductively it follows from this general principle: People in power tend to cover their tracks when they arrive illegitimately. Historically, however one got into office, if he was finally. Emperor or King or President, it was legal. It had to be “legal.” Now in the civil republic that we call the United States, in fall of 1963, certain forms were followed and certain associations were formed. Acts were committed that were apparently crimes, but they were actually quite “legal,” under the secret regulations and security clearances then in existence, inside the Pentagon and White House, and then made legal again - The trace of the actions and the identities of the actors are found in a few paragraphs of Constitutional forgiveness, the Twenty-Fifth Amendment, written in 1965 and ratified in 1967. A kind of ‘killing under color of law’ theory emerges from the study of the period, from the biographies and history of the U.S. leadership in the 1960s. Much hinges on the Cabinet. The 25th amendment tells us that all or part of the Cabinet majority, with the Vice President also on board, shall have the power to decide on the incapacity of the sitting president. This means the role of Treasury Secretary C.D. Dillon becomes crucial in the deed and the aftermath. By deed and aftermath I mean principally, the Dealey Plaza ambush and the Warren Commission’s investigation. Read the twenty-fifth amendment, Vice President Lyndon Johnson is in there, and so is Treasury Secretary C. Douglass Dillon. The Treasury Secretary is the top of the chain of command for the Secret Service. If Occam’s Razor points to too many suspects, then a unity forms from that, a super-ordinate explanation, an over-arching scheme, both simple and comprehensive. All is explained by the scenario described, in 1965, in the Twenty-Fifth Amendment. The subsequent rationale, or ex post facto legislation - which ratifies a change in government after the fact, this technique is as old as the written language. Lyndon Baines Johnson, Douglass Dillon, J. Edgar Hoover, the powerful Dulles brothers, these cabinet members and cabinet-level advisors to Kennedy and Johnson. I think they are mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. They could decide upon the President’s incapacity to perform as commander. The militant reactionary political enemies of John Kennedy formed powerful nodes of power in the web of secret defense interests. It is the unspeakable reality of American political violence which is at historical issue. In 1963 mercenaries and Mafiosos were engaged full-time in the Caribbean and along the Gulf Coast of the U.S., that traditionally unstable US tropical southern border (since Dutch, Spanish and French times, and the war of 1899). Cuba, a right wing mob casino paradise, was lost to the radical, Fidel Castro. John Kennedy failed to initiate the armed air invasion plans the CIA had hoped for and the Bay of Pigs failed miserably. Now we all know that John Kennedy was a charismatic and intellectually bright man, but he had a strong egocentric aspect, and orgies of all kinds generally followed closely on his person and his staff. After spending a lifetime considering critically the scope and magnitude of what I know and what I know I know, through both cognition and metacognition, deductive and inductive reasoning, published and private sources: I find it was an inside job, it was a government job, and it was put up to important people as a fait accompli, “a done deal.” The assassination was presented to Lyndon Johnson, C.D. Dillon, J. Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon, as a done deal, a fait accompli, before and after the fact. This was done by the spies, Kennedy’s enemies. The militant force used the security mechanisms in place to declare John Fitzgerald Kennedy unfit for security clearances and sensitive positions of authority. Someone in defense intelligence or the CIA circa 1963 took this type of intercepted intelligence to a higher level, 'Well, Jack’s now takin’ the Sandoz doses with Cord Meyer’s wife, LSD thing they’re on now, he’s crazy now, totally mentally unfit do to anything as commander in chief, now he’s clinically, criminally, chronically insane, according to Caption b subsection A, paragraph E, and so on …' I paraphrase, and form a theoretical scenario. My theory doesn’t hinge on Jack Kennedy using LSD, or having syphilis, or even suffering from Addison’s adrenal deficiency. My theory hinges on the willingness of the spies, his enemies, to declare him incompetent, and I think the theory is a reasonable conclusion. And so that was that, from the Plans Directorate and 111th they scrambled to work, and the angry Cuban Alpha 66 group did the heavy lifting, with their partners, the mob. Douglass Dillon, Kennedy’s inexplicable choice for Treasury secretary, was the ultimate head of the Secret Service in 1963. The fix was in, and it was “legal,” due to incapacity. Why Jack Kennedy made Clarence D. Dillon the head of the U.S. Treasury, no one will ever know. Robert Lovett had turned it down. Dillon, Reed & Co. was a Wall Street institution and C.D.Dillon was a sort of late model Andrew Mellon for President Kennedy. An attempt at bipartisan Cabinet leadership, and a sop to the right. Anyway, C.D. Dillon ran the 1963 Secret Service, a branch of Treasury then, and he and the intelligence paramilitary put the thing into place, and then they covered up the assassination with the Warren Commission and the Twenty Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Nothing else explains the route, the failure to prepare, the lack of running boards on Jack’s presidential limousine. Why no running boards, why drive at walking speed, why the slow detour? We can’t blame a building or a fence or a knoll, people did this. They think they committed no crime. But they implicated themselves in the apologia, which is the 25th Amendment. Lyndon Baines Johnson, who was elevated to the now compromised (or politically constrained) Presidency, was sitting in the Oval Office while the 25th Amendment went through. After that Cabinet members and a V.P. had the power to incapacitate the President. This organic legislation, a fundamental addendum to the republic’s Constitution, implicates Clarence Douglass Dillon (whose name was on the currency in the 1960’s), the amendment indicts Vice President Johnson and other cabinet level advisors in the defense and domestic security web, it explains the acts of Johnson’s friend and protector, J. Edgar Hoover, and possibly Sect. Robert MacNamara, and possibly Maxwell Taylor, the 1964 ambassador to Saigon. This top-down scheme allows for the coordinated order of events seen in the event and its aftermath. The amount of troubling illogic in the murder and all the bizarre aftermath points to a Program, a Program approved by at least a few heads of Cabinet. Jack was a playboy, a movie star, a total wild man. The people that lived up his rear-end, taping him, snapping pictures and listening in, they caught him being very naughty, and they took the case upstairs. Incapacity. Dulles got on board with all his baggage. The plan came off the books, the plane was off down the runway, and at Dealey Plaza the deal went down... In the future, this will be the conventional wisdom, and all the rough consensus about a government conspiracy points toward this explanation, the “legal” model. Sources? The Twenty-fifth amendment, that’s about as primary as you get, and the Warren Commission, and all it suggests, and neglects, that is primary, that is substantive, that is contemporary. Affidavits of the assassins and the assassin’s helpers, and the investigative reporting of Seymour Hersh, and the late Mary Pinchot Meyer, and Dorothy Kilgallen, and the behavior of the 1963 Secret Service in the primary document, a color film by Abraham Zapruder, and the photos of the railroad overpass crowded with people over Kennedy’s bloody head…is that a primary source, a film of a walking speed open-car ambush? The top guys did it. Those that control the FBI, the Naval Hospital, military intelligence, and secret service would never have co-operated without orders from higher-ups. I present a coherent, compelling, cohesive hypothesis, a theory to explain the facts. In Dallas, Mr. Barnes was there, and Mr. McCord, Eugene Brading and Jimmy Files, Niccolletti the hit man, Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis, Johnny Roselli, and Dave Morales, Lansdale the ugly American, he was there, and all together, so it looks like a government job, with mob contractors participating, similar to what was planned for Castro. I’m a patriotic American and I wish the current officeholders of the Secret Service, Pentagon and the Treasury well, I really do. But in 1963 the Republican Treasury Secretary C.Douglass Dillon was a responsible party. Lyndon Johnson was a responsible party. John Edgar Hoover was in authority. Alan Dulles and the Cabell brothers were responsible. Ed Clark was implicated. Tracy Barnes was implicated. William Harvey was implicated. Dave Morales was implicated. Clint Murchison was implicated. H.L. Hunt was implicated. David Attlee Phillips and Desmond Fitzgerald were involved in the murder, and they were gung-ho patriotic Americans. The team of mercenaries and hitmen that had worked under federal control in the late 50’s were also implicated; Sam Giancanna, Mr. Marcello, Mr. Trafficante, the infamous Johnny Rosselli, Mr. Niccoletti and his driver Jimmy Files, they were all implicated. And the medical crews, and the FBI, and the Dallas police, who failed to protect the suspect. Oswald, who was lost to history, made one substantive statement “I am a patsy.” His career in counter-intelligence is evidence for my theory. A highly-classified document once existed, it was the authorization for the executive action. Incapacity (with the eye dotted and the tee crossed) of the Commander in Chief; JFK was stripped of his security clearances, and his removal was officially authorized. But in the Constitution itself is another rapidly written, but after the fact, rationale. This is an ex-post facto, presidential ascension, legitimacy rationale, a document like the ones we have seen so many times in British and Roman history. It was a national security crisis…and John Kennedy was clinically insane, from drugs. Kennedy was declared clinically incapacitated and was stripped of his security clearance, because he had indulged in the psychedelic LSD-25, which the CIA had introduced for mind control and human experimentation in the Chemical Warfare Program MK/ULTRA. The same agencies had spied on Kennedy and discovered this mistake. The Twenty-fifth amendment gives cover to the events of November, 1963; especially since the Vice President and some of his Cabinet level advisors were still in power in 1965 when it was composed, and even in 1967, when it became law, ratified in “the summer of love.” Why this sudden rush to radically re-write the rules for a Presidential succession? Dallas and the unusual ascension of Lyndon Baines Johnson was the motivation. What laws or rules drive good historical theory? Theories explaining evidence must be concise, compelling, coherent, cohesive. The simplest scheme possible to explain all the known facts and misunderstandings. Occam’s razor, or the law of parsimony should drive theory derived from evidence. Keep it simple stupid. No bells and whistles. So with the Kennedy assassination, a simple answer, an explanation, at last. But damn it is hard to swallow, despicable murder…like Julius Ceasar, or Alexander II. This was a story of top-down orders, from the VP and a Cabinet bloc. The Commander-in-chief had suffered “incapacity.” During the Cold War, involving the Cuban mercenaries, and secret nuclear operations… Johnson, Hoover, C.D. Dillon, Alan Dulles, the Warren Commission and the Twenty-Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, how does all this fit together? A top down, top level security crisis, an executive action, a non-crime, a “legal” event. May God in Heaven bless our martyred leader, John F. Kennedy, and God protect us all.

Fetzer's Film Hoax is available on the web in abbreviated form. It is not very convincing. He believes the entire Zapruder film is a special effects project, with pasted figures of JFK, Jackie and the Connallys placed over a limousine filmed empty, etc. It hinges on some less than convincing problems with the exact angle of the Stemmons Freeway sign and the lamp post. I reviewed the entire site carefully. While I believe the key Headshot Frames may have been doctored in a similar manner to the autopsy films, and the provenance and authenticity of the publicly available prints are highly problematic, the Fetzer theory is not supported by the evidence. This thread only makes sense if you have reqad the book or clicked through the HOAX site. I was not convinced that the film was one big special effect. I do believe the wounds may have been retouched, and that frames were removed to downplay the 1963 Secret Service braking to a near stop in the middle of the ambush. Shanet

Great thread, this gathers in one place much puzzling evidence that appears in bits and pieces on other threads. Florer and Brading were obviously scripted with misinformation, and the H.L. Hunt office ties in with a long-held theory about him and his family being involved. I think my conference paper will help to build a theoretical basis where such a large and co-ordinated event could happen. Shanet

Jim You have captured the essence of the Eisenhower era debate on military readiness, the BIG GUNS (nuclear strategy) at the expense of conventional weapons, stirred up anger in the defense establishment. Taylor was into ground war and especially co-operation between covert paramilitary CIA and defense department units. (Guenther Lewy, America in Vietnam). This blurring of the lines between "civilian" intelligence ops and military ops gave us Abu Ghraib, operation phoenix, iran contra, etc. etc.With the melding of CIA and Defense both can avoid any responsibility, and both sides can point the finger at the other when things go wrong. I am in agreement with Tim about the importance of JFK's capitulation in Turkey as the silent, secret codicil of the Missile Crisis agreement. The public only saw the USSR freighters turning away from Cuba, the whole story took years to leak out. It, along with the incriminating evidence concerning JFK's private life, gave military officials reason to hate, exclude, and ultimately kill the president, I believe. The Mullen Company was indeed the front PR firm Hunt worked for, and Robert Bennett was so deeply ensconced in counter-counter-counter intelligence he may have exposed Nixon to serious charges (ie Deep Throat). The more you look at Watergate, the more ties to Dallas emerge. I still have serious reservations about jumping to the conclusion that the CIA brought down Nixon via the Hunt Burglaries at the Democratic National Committee. Did they prefer McGovern? Spiro Agnew? I think not. The murky nature of Hunt's loyalties and motivation make such speculation inevitable and the events are linked, but in ways we have yet to fully understand. Shanet

What Changed? The Vietnam War went into full swing. The intermarriage of Defense and CIA went into overdrive, under the co-ordination of Maxwell Taylor and William Colby (operation phoenix). Motive? Intimidate, Control and Manage the War Making capacity. Remove from office someone hostile to and challenging MI/CIA prerogatives. Read the twenty-fifth amendment, a document contemporary with the Warren Commission...It reads like a report of what happened 11/22/63. Shanet

Tim Carroll. Great Paper. You are a careful historian, and this story suggests as much as it tells, but we have to be careful. Forum readers know that we are "allies" with similar interests and approaches, and I have a few general comments. The connections between Dallas 11/22/63 and Watergate are intriguing, and I agree with you that "the whole bay of pigs thng" is a euphimism or code word for the Kennedy Assassination. I had always thought so and Bob Haldeman came out and said so explicitly in his dying efforts to restore his reputation. Having Hunt in the White House (what was in his safe?) and having Hunt hire Vergilio Gonzales, Martinez and Frank Sturgis for the Watrgate burglary shows some kind of high-pressure intimidation of Nixon, because these were angry Bay of Pigs veterans and long-time Cuban penetration commandos. Helms was certainly aware of the situation. United States Senator (R/Utah) Robert Bennett plays a role in both the assassination and the Watergate burglary, his ties to Hunt and McCord are verified, he had a CIA front office in DC and employed the principles in the burglary. I am very strongly inclined to agree with Jim Root's interpretation of the role of Maxwell Taylor, in the U-2 incident, the assassination and Vietnam War escalation. As far as IKE is concerned, don't let the Military Industrial Complex speech let him off the hook - for his massive nuclear arms build-up, covert assassinations and Bay of Pigs planning, he was a figurehead for Pennsylvania oil interests and a front front for the growing intermarriage of CIA paramilitary and Defense Department programs and cover. Ike and Nixon were no heroes to our democratic republican ideal of government... Great paper, and it stimulated a good round of "collective intelligence". Shanet

Tim It is now known exactly how Joe and John Kennedy won in WVA. Each county had a Slate, a list of preferred candidates. The Kennedy team made sure each county sheriff who selected the slate got five to ten thousand dollars cash. SOme of this money came from Chicago, ie Giancana. Shanet Jim I agree that Maxwell Taylor was a participant, but it went way beyond simply steering the limosine past the book store depository. That detour was made to put Kennedy in the path of the triangulated fire, not just to be under Oswalds window. As chief of staff he was a cabinet level figure as described in the 25th amendment and had access to intelligence on Kennedy's innermost habits behaviors and beliefs. He was in a position to propose Kennedy was technically incapacitated and unworthy of a security clearance, which I believe was the central cover/rationale for the well co-ordinated executive sanction in Dallas. Shanet

Jim I think you are onto something but it is not quite clear from that post. Could you go over the Maxwell Taylor angle again? Shanet

Anyone else read the New York Times this morning? Opium and Heroin production in Afghanistan is up 60% this year over last. Why is it that every time the United States initiates a war in Asia, the opium production skyrockets? Could it be that the colonels and military intelligence people have something to do with it? Lets see Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, El Salvador, Afghanistan, all major sources of white powder drugs. Just asking... [RE: Alfred McCoy, The Politics of Heroin In Southeast Asia]

Good point, John. A larger issue is that he had just seen a man's head blown up about ten yards in front of him...he knew enough about Dulles, Lansdale, Dillon, Fitzgerald and the agencies to play along. Speaking of confirming a conspiracy, Is everyone aware of the NAMEBASE.ORG? Fascinating software. It gives you a graphic line chart connecting political figures to their contacts and contemporaries. I plugged in C.D.Dillon and got one nasty group of people and the Howard Hunt configuration was OUTRAGEOUS. It also then gives you links to any books known to contain the names of your target's contacts....its a real research tool for us...namebase.org.... Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Looking forward to it. I was an avid follower of current events/politics even as a freshman in high school and I remember the developing Bobby Baker scandal but did not remember how close the investigation was coming to LBJ until the info developed on your forum. One point I would raise with respect to LBJ, though (and I was never a LBJ admirer) is that LBJ and Connally were very close (as the tapes also demonstrate). Somewhat hard to believe LBJ would orchestrate an assassination which would put his friend's life at risk. If LBJ had wanted to do it, couldn't he have found an opportunity other than the Dallas motorcade? And, didn't LBJ have enough info re JFK's sex life that it would have removed JFK from the ticket had it been released? As I recall, it was Baker who had introduced JFK to Ellen Rometsch. Looking forward to your paper. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim Gratz Good Point, the Connally wounding is one of the prime reasons that show that LBJ was carried along by the momentum of the larger effort, and not a sole initiator and beneficiary...my paper will present a theory that will shed light on this. Thanks for all the great posts Shanet

James Which one is David Ferrie? I've only seen the bizarre photos of him with the painted eyebrows and men in drag, etc...but these guys look normal.... Shanet

I am serious---James with his photos, Tim the historian, John, Tosh, Ron, Al, myself; We could better ascertain the intentions and capabilities of hostile countries like Korea and Iran than the bureaucrats and Brown graduates communting around Northern Virginia right now. They look for political directions, not hostile intentions, ---of course critical, penetrating, independent minds like ours will never be welcome inside the "Cone of Silence" ---much to our nation's loss. People like Anthony Summers, Seymour Hersh and James Bamford are utterly blackballed from the security 'game' so, in effect, we have do their work for them, after the fact, and for free, out of patriotism and a sense of right and wrong...digging through de-classified material years after the fact, exposing their crimes, errors and falsifications. Speaking of the agency, here's a file I pulled down from the web: Name Roster of the Secret Establishment There were so many "Yalies" in the OSS that Yale's drinking tune, the "Whiffenpoof Song", became an "unofficial" song of the OSS. Many in the OSS were "Bonesmen" or belonged to the other Yale senior societies. Robert Lovett ('18), Harriman's childhood friend, had been tapped into Skull & Bones by Prescott Bush's cell of '17 and was a director at Brown Brothers, Harriman. Again, from "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography": "On October 22, 1945, Secretary of War Robert Patterson created the Lovett Committee, chaired by Robert A. Lovett, to advise the government on the post-World War II organization of U.S. intelligence activities.... The new agency would 'consult' with the armed forces, but it must be the sole collecting agency in the field of foreign espionage and counterespionage. The new agency should have an independent budget, and its appropriations should be granted by Congress without public hearings. Lovett appeared before the Secretaries of State, War, and Navy on November 14, 1945.... Lovett pressed for a virtual resumption of the wartime Office of Strategic Services (OSS).... The CIA was established in 1947 according to the prescription of Robert Lovett, of Jupiter Island." Gaddis Smith, a history professor at Yale, said, "Yale has influenced the Central Intelligence Agency more than any other university, giving the CIA the atmosphere of a class reunion." And "Bonesman" have been foremost among the "spooks" building the CIA's "haunted house." F. Trubee Davison ('18) was Director of Personnel at the CIA in the early years. Some of the other "Bonesmen" connected with the intelligence community are: Sloane Coffin, Jr. ('49) V. Van Dine ('49) James Buckley ('44) Bill Buckley ('50) Hugh Cunnigham ('34) Hugh Wilson ('09) Reuben Holden ('40) Charles R. Walker ('16) Yale's 'unofficial' Secretary of War, Robert D. French ('10) Archibald MacLiesh ('15) Dino Pionzio ('50), CIA Deputy Chief of Station during Allende overthrow William and McGeorge Bundy Richard A. Moore ('3?) Senator David Boren ('63) Senator John Kerry ('66) ...and, of course, George Herbert Walker Bush. Bush tapped Coffin, who tapped Buckley. Some other prominent Bonesmen include: Henry Luce ('20), Time-Life John Thomas Daniels ('14), founder Archer Daniels Midland Gifford Pinchot ('89), President Theodore Roosevelt's chief forester Frederick E. Weyerhaeuser ('96) Harold Stanley ('08), founder of Morgan Stanley, investment banker Alfred Cowles ('13), Cowles Communication Henry P. Davison ('20), senior partner Morgan Guaranty Trust Thomas Cochran ('04) Morgan partner Senator John Heinz ('31) Pierre Jay ('92), first chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York George Herbert Walker, Jr. ('27), financier and co-founder of the NY Mets Artemus Gates ('18), President of New York Trust Company, Union Pacific, TIME, Boeing Company William Draper III (50), the Defense Department, UN and Import-Export Bank Dean Witter, Jr.('44), investment banker Senator Jonathan Bingham ('36) Potter Stewart ('36), Supreme Court Justice Senator John Chaffe ('47) Harry Payne Whitney ('94), husband of Gertrude Vanderbilt, investment banker Russell W. Davenport ('23), editor Fortune Magazine, created Fortune 500 list Evan G. Galbraith ('50), Ambassador to France and Managing Director of Morgan Stanley Richard Gow ('55), president Zapata Oil Amory Howe Bradford ('34), husband of Carol Warburg Rothschild and general manager for the New York Times C. E. Lord ('49), Comptroller of the Currency Winston Lord ('59), Chairman of CFR, Ambassador to China and assistant Secretary of State in the Clinton administration Ever since Nixon re-established America's political relationship with China, many of our ambassadors to that country have been Bonesmen, including George Bush, the first Chief U. S. Liaison Officer to the Peoples Republic of China. These are just the "name" guys, corporate boards and international banking and law firms are full of Skull and Bones members who names aren't as well known. This is disturbing. I wouldn't call them Illuminati, but rather an inbred elite power center hostile to democratic representative government.

J. Edgar Hoover used to orally communicate with Clyde Tolson, too.

John, There are some very serious issues involved here. First, in James Bamford's PRETEXT FOR WAR, a high ranking CIA official is quoted as telling another large staff meeting that their responsibility was to provide the President with the information he needed to carry out his policy of War in Iraq. Many CIA agents were shocked at this politicization of the intelligence gathering process. Tenet and Powell lying to the United Nations and George Bush lying to the nation (Cincinatti speech)were the result. Porter Goss is a political loyalist and was a very lame watchdog. The politicization, or pre-conceived conclusions, at CIA is very likely to leave us blind-sided again. I think the pendulum has swung too far toward a safe, risk-averse, timid CIA, one where having agents on the ground in Iraq circa 2001 was illegal, where Pakistan and India could build and detonate nuclear weapons without the CIA knowing, and where Al Quaeda could meet in Malaysia, infiltrate the U.S. and carry out multiple Hijackings. Bureaucratic non-entities sit in their offices reading transcripts while hostile forces organize and act. The CIA ain't what it used to be, I almost would rather have Colby and Helms in power than the lame shirkers and lapdogs up there now...we researchers do a better job than they do, because we don't have blinders on. We don't have to follow a script and worry what Rummy and Cheney will think of our conclusions...... Shanet

Great thread---I've got a good one. About ten years ago I was a paid tutor in the drop-out prevention program in Kentucky. I worked for a literacy foundation and we taught the roughest discipline problems, tenth and eleventh graders (15-16), and they had many F grades, skipped 80 days a year, pregnant, etc. None of them were allowed in their regular classes, so I got them. Every Friday we had special guests who talked about their professions. One week we had Rappers talk to the class, and this disgusted the Ph.D. in charge, so next Friday I was on my own when we had an Author come in. The Author was on a book tour and had written "Ranch-hands are my Weakness" a popular book about her promiscuity. I will paraphrase: "It's great being a writer, you make lots of money and get to fly around. I met a man at a party and told him about my book, and the next thing I knew I had a book in print and it was a big best seller. On the plane here I was sitting next to a young man, about your age, and I asked him what he did. He said he had dropped out of school to become a male prostitute! I meet the most interesting people now that I am a writer...he was very sweet and good looking." Opening her book she began to read to my class: "Buffalo skins or blankets? I realized he was asking me what I wanted to sleep on, and I said Buffalo Skins. He climbed on top of me. It is so glorious to be F%#@ed by a cowboy, with their hard skin and thin legs, he was on top of me, F%#@ing me harder and harder, then the phone rang and I could hear the caller leave a message, she was jealous, she knew I was F%#@ing her cowboy and that made me feel even better as I spread my legs wider....." The class was frozen in shock. All I could do was glare at them. Don't laugh, my face said to them, don't even giggle. They sat quietly until the Author left. True Story.... Later, my paychecks were running three weeks late and I went to the school board to find out what was going on and they told me I wasn't an employee. It turns out the Ph.D. was paying me in Purchase Orders and I never got my final months pay........what a nightmare...

1) Destruction of Evidence. Windshield, Hosty Note, Autopsy Notes, President's Brain. 2) Nature of Oswald's life, defection, counter-defection, relationship to DeMorenschild, Cuban groups, altered photos, Walker incident, etc. 3) Secret Service failures, detour, slow crawl, lack of running boards, drinking party, overpass, slow response. 4) Witnesses murdered. 5) Ballistics.

Now this gets to the heart of the debate. What happened and who was involved? Wim's link reminded me of the FBI memo's central assumption, that George Bush of the CIA was a known authority on the mood of the Cuban exile community in Miami in late 1963. That is a fact. John and Al have good points, but we must not bend the evidence to what we EXPECT a covert executive sanction to be, we must look at what actually happened. This is about POWER. The fact that the lookalikes were there means they were participants, brazen activists. The Secret Service motorcade took a sweeping side street detour, slowed to a crawl, slower than 10 miles an hour, and then volley after volley struck the President, the Governor and the vehicle....planes flew in and out, witnesses were murdered, people told improbable tales, so what are we to make of that? The people who appear in the photos were showing solidarity, and complicating the job of researchers for years to come. They were participant witnesses, sucked into compromising proximity, much like the members of P2, who gave Licio Gelli compromising material about themselves...to be in Dealey was a sign of POWER, to be in the know, to be there when the changing of the guard occurred. Sure, a tight squad of deniable and expendable mercenaries would be Standard Operating Procedure, but that is not what happened...they all shared responsibility, just like they would share power after the renegade Kennedy was eliminated...this was theater, intimidation and a grand public power play, and the more the merrier. The lookalikes really do look like the principals, and GHW Bush is one of the principals. By drawing in a large group and mildly exposing all of them, the planners showed their power, their cunning, their reach...we wish it hadn't happened, we may even wish that only one guy did it, or a team of angry CUbans or Mafiosos did it, but that is just not the case. The evidence shows otherwise... Shanet (it must be late November again)

Wim thinks EVERYBODY killed John Kennedy. Just Kidding, Wim, but you do have a scattershot approach...George Bush was certainly CIA long before Gerald Ford made him DCI, and when he ran the United States United Nations Mission in New York he was heavily involved in wiretapping, same in China as Charge D'affaire. The case linking Bush to Dallas is actually very weak, but a bit suggestive. I don't have the citation in front of me, but there was a memo to J.Edgar Hoover dated 11/23/63 that stated that a CIA employee named George Bush had called FBI to give information about the JFK killing, and the federales bent over backwards to claim that it was another George Bush! They pinned the FBI memo on a George Bush who did coastline surveys, and when reporters got ahold of that George Bush, he had no idea what they were talking about. That is fact. Not much evidence for a capital murder conviction, but something...some of you will know the facts about this rumor, was the Bay of Pigs invasion code-named Operation Zapata? Was a support ship named the Barbara? Because those two items are tied to the rumor/theory that George Bush Sr. was part of the invasion of Cuba, hence, CIA...whatever the facts, certainly GHW Bush was put in place at Langley to clean up the mess Colby had made, and he shut down the leaks. One more thing about George Senior, he was Chairman of the Republican National Committee during Watergate. Where do you think the 1970's illegal campaign contributions went? Bush emerged in 1979 to challenge Reagan and Carter with a flush bankroll, which I think he rolled over from the Nixon/Mitchell/Hunt days.... Shanet ((great photo Jack, that does look like the preppy president))

Speed kills... Good thread, I pulled up more Loran Hall material just by using the search engine. The HSCA was interested in him, to say the least. Shanet

John, I thought this list was an extrememly helpful guide, and I will dig into the books. I would add LEGEND: the secret world of Lee Harvey Oswald and PLAUSIBLE DENIAL by Mark Lane, (because of the Howard Hunt libel trial coverage). I cut my teeth on Mark Lane, Joesten, Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Mark Lane and Fletcher Prouty back in the day...Best Evidence, High Treason, Crossfire...so your list was a welcome update. Of course anyone on the Forum should also know about the SPARTACUS website and A.J. Weberman's photo evidence site. Thanks for posting these titles. Shanet

John, Of course you realize if this Carole Tyler was Bobby Baker's secretary and an intimate acquaintance of Senator George Smathers AND Mary Jo Kopechne's roommate it adds weight to the alternate hypothesis you gave us concerning Kopechne's death. She knew too much. I had a hard time accepting the "Howard Hunt did it to discredit Ted Kennedy" theory of Chappaquiddick, but actually the scenario you painted on another thread explains some anomalies about the events of that night, only the bad guys weren't Ted and his pals, they were the bad guys from Watergate and Dallas fame...very interesting...

I think the photos we use add to our legitimacy and add a human element which quietly adds substance to our civil discourse, and they also discourage anonymous attacks, deliberate misinformation and reckless disregard for others, which can easily occur if you only see other people online as "cold type." Once again I support John Simkin in his efforts to maintain our credibility. I have two suggestions. Please be very specific when you title a new thread, so it really serves to index that topic. Also, the long, long, long posts are unbearable and they often relate to some minor argument that is not of general interest. Please be specific when starting a thread and keep your posts succinct and interesting....people really do turn to us for information, so lets respect them, too.

Steve, Jim and John Thanks for the good feedback. A few thoughts on this so far: The WWII OSS Italy was linked to Maxwell Taylor, who is on my short list of Kennedy's entrenched and politically prominent killers. Also, the OSS Italy circa June 1945 is exactly where the Il Duce Mannlicher Carcannos probably came from...the oil companies, who all depended on John J. McCloy for unified legal advice, were interested in Algeria and the OAS, this ties in to the HL Hunt, Clint Murchison theories. The tentacles of Gehlen, Licio Gelli and Allen Dulles permeate any understanding of the 1945-1965 historical period. Thanks for the Admiral Darlan lead. The Christian David information is interesting, and this whole angle (OAS, French assassins) may be disinformation, only tangential or a waste of time...it is certainly not my main theory...but the international culture of fascism and organized crime corrupting capitalist national governments (especially the intelligence and paramilitary) in the period 1945-1965 is very important to understanding the context of John Kennedy's murder. I've read Yallop's "In God's Name," and it is pretty obvious John Paul I was killed by corrupt Vatican Bank figures tied to Gelli and the Propaganda Due (P2). In counter-intelligence nothing is what it appears to be, and the weird reversals and agent provocateur actions described above actually make sense in the world of double-agency and pre-emptive violence. Please add more information about France, Algeria, Italy or international assassins to this thread, specifically, was DeGaulle's 1962 attempted murder linked to Dallas? Shanet

You all are talking about the OAS, right? James, please give some more detail on all this. This is the first I've heard of any tie-in of Fiorini/Sturgis to the OAS. The Jean Souetre material is very interesting, please post more on the new Degaulle thread.... Have you read FRIC-FRAC by Albert Spaggiari? Spaggiari robbed the Bank of Nice in the largest bank robbery up to that time by digging through the sewers under Nice, France. Old OAS members were on Spaggiari's team, and it was a real Ocean's Eleven type caper...or Sewers Eleven, anyway ... FRIC-FRAC is a great book, and Spaggiari's still at large. Maybe he'll join the FORUM.....