Shanet Clark

I started another thread to address these questions, specifically was the plan to assassinate DeGaulle in Cabarra (sp) in 1962 related operationally to Dallas? This is on that same theme. The Christian David theme, after I looked into it was pretty weak, as was the Corsican theme. The Mossad theme is new to me. I am mainly looking for any leaks or leads out of French Intelligence or OAS about an operational plans link between the DeGaulle attempts and Dallas. Frederick Forsyth, who wrote Day of the Jackal and the Dogs of War, probably assumed a connection like this, specifically the Mercury Bullets......... shanet

Prouty, who I respect for his courage, is not always wholly rigorous. He apparently believes the stand down order occurred because HE was sent away, and because his immediate reaction to the assassination was "they weren't following procedures!" which is of course broadly true. If anyone knows of more specific documentation of a MI stand-down, please post it. He is one of the key supporters of the throat Flechette theory, which is not widely supported. The most interesting part of the Prouty story to me is the time lag between the murder in Dallas and the New Zealand newspapers about Oswald--which just simply came out too fast, in a very fishy and programmed manner, a frame which came off the shelf too quickly. He was near the south pole reading about Oswald's biography much too fast for journalistic technology of the day. Prouty is also the source for the man in the tramps photos being Ed Lansdale, Prouty's associate. Prouty should be read for background information and general context, and sometimes his perceptions of events are no longer on the leading edge of research......... Is that a fair statement? He is a real leader in this field...... Shanet

Al Yes. This was provided for historical background. Procedures change. A ten year interval exists between this manual and Dallas, and that can be seen as a long time--or a short time...I didn't post the circa 1980 SOA manual because it is not really germane to 1963. In this document I am mainly interested in the terminology, "Chase," "Lost," etc., jargon which may help researchers. JFK was chase, Oswald was lost, etc. The witnesses who succumbed in the aftermath, their stories may also be better understood through the understanding of this declassified SOP manual. Always appreciate your posts.

Poor security in Florida is no excuse for the events in Dallas. The fact that no one took advantage of the poor security in Florida to kill Kennedy, that has no bearing on Dallas. The security arrangements were obviously poor to the point of negligent in both cases. In Dallas the slow turn, detour, walking speed rate of motion, brakes applied in the ambush, open windows, overpass crowds directly overhead, lack of running boards and president in lead car...all these, whether precedented in Florida or not, point to co-ordinated interference in the security of the president, leading to his demise. In Dallas. I agree with the angle that Dallas had airfields, railroads, roads and highways for escape ...and characters like Ruby and Oswald and the Dallas local police -- and all this made it a better spot for the conspirators than the isolation of peninsular Florida. If it was a pure agency operation, they would have done it overseas, SOP. Nice Photos, Tim. Shanet

Conference Participants and Researchers: I would like to say thank you to Dr. David Mantik. We have been a bit overwhelmed by the deluge of conference papers, but I would sincerely urge all Forum Members to click on the link and read Dr. Mantik's paper "Autopsy Evidence" - if you have not done so already. This paper answers many of the questions we all have about the autopsy photos, the X-rays and the clothing evidence---Dr. Mantik has thoroughly investigated these items of evidence first hand and has come to some very interesting conclusions about the fatal wounds and how they were 'interpreted' by the forensic authorities, the Warren Commission and the House Committee. Because Dr. Mantik is not one of our "day-to-day" members, and the paper was on a hot-link, I think many of us may have overlooked "Autopsy Evidence." This paper (with its link repeated below) is probably the most important paper presented at the conference, in my opinion. Shanet Clark QUOTE(David Mantik @ Nov 23 2004, 01:28 PM) David W. Mantik, M.D., Ph.D. (Editor's Note: This is an expanded and revised version of a presentation for "Solving the Great American Murder Mystery" Symposium, which was held at Duquesne University 20-23 November 2003. The speaker, who is the leading student of the death of JFK in the world today, has elaborated on the formal paper that he submitted for its appearance in this journal, while preserving the sequence of figures and photographs. The formal paper appears following the informal version as an appendix.) http://assassinationresearch.com/v2n2/pittsburgh.pdf

Jim I suspect that Maxwell Taylor is too high up the food chain to be considered Oswald's handler, although he may have been his pawn. George DeMorenschildt or Howard Hunt, they are prime candidates for this role. Shanet

Thank you, Dr. Mantik. We have all been a bit overwhelmed by the deluge of conference papers and concurrent threads the last two weeks. I would sincerely urge all Forum Members to click on the link and read Dr. Mantik's paper if you have not done so already. This paper will answer many of the questions you may have about the autopsy photos, the X-rays and the clothing evidence---Dr. Mantik has thoroughly investigated these items of evidence first hand and has come to some very interesting conclusions about the fatal wounds and how they were interpreted by the forensic authorities, the Warren Commission and the House Committee. This is probably the most important paper presented at the conference. Shanet Clark

John, As you know, I attend academic history conferences and give seminars on nineteenth century political history. A typical session has about ten people listening to three presenters, and each presenter gets about twenty minutes. For this I have driven hundreds of miles and payed hundreds of dollars. I have spoken to as few as four people, and the largest one was about thirty people--and that was only because I was in the popular Civil War section. My seminar here was visited by over one hundred people, and other papers show hundreds of readers....eight hundred people have visited Tim Carroll's thread.... so this was an excellent history conference by any standard. Shanet

1953 Central Intelligence Agency Guide to Clandestine Murder [Declassified, 1997] As published online by the late Frank Olson's family: DEFINITION Assassination is a term thought to be derived from “Hashish,” a drug similar to marijuana, said to have been used by Hasan-Dan-Sabah to induce motivation in his followers, who were assigned to carry out political and other murders, usually at the cost of their lives. It is here used to describe the planned killing of a person who is not under the legal jurisdiction of the killer, who is not physically in the hands of the killer, who has been selected by a resistance organization for death, and whose death provides positive advantages to that organization. EMPLOYMENT Assassination is an extreme measure not normally used in clandestine operations. It should be assumed that it will never be ordered or authorized by any U.S. Headquarters, though the latter may in rare instances agree to its execution by members of an associated foreign service. This reticence is partly due to the necessity of committing communications to paper. No assassination instructions should ever be written or recorded. Consequently, the decision to employ this technique must nearly always be reached in the field, at the area where the act will take place. Decision and instructions should be confined to an absolute minimum of persons. Ideally, only one person will be involved. No report may be made, but usually the act will be properly covered by normal news services, whose output is available to all concerned. JUSTIFICATION Murder is not morally justifiable. Self-defense may be argued if the victim has knowledge which may destroy the resistance organization if divulged. Assassination of persons responsible for atrocities or reprisals may be regarded as just punishment. Killing a political leader whose burgeoning career is a clear and present danger to the cause of freedom may be held necessary. But assassination can seldom be employed with a clear conscience. Persons who are morally squeamish should not attempt it. CLASSIFICATIONS The techniques employed will vary according to whether the subject is unaware of his danger, aware but unguarded, or guarded. They will also be affected by whether or not the assassin is to be killed with the subject. Hereafter, assassinations in which the subject is unaware will be termed “simple”; those where the subject is aware but unguarded will be termed “chase”; those where the victim is guarded will be termed “guarded.” If the assassin is to die with the subject, the act will be called “lost.” If the assassin is to escape, the adjective will be “safe.” It should be noted that no compromises should exist here. The assassin must not fall into enemy hands. A further type division is caused by the need to conceal the fact that the subject was actually the victim of assassination, rather than an accident or natural causes. If such concealment is desirable the operation will be called “secret”; if concealment is immaterial, the act will be called open”; while if the assassination requires publicity to be effective it will be termed “terroristic.” Following these definitions, the assassination of Julius Caesar was safe, simple, and terroristic, while that of Huey Long was lost, guarded and open. Obviously, successful secret assassinations are not recorded as assassination at all. [illeg] of Thailand and Augustus Caesar may have been the victims of safe, guarded and secret assassination. Chase assassinations usually involve clandestine agents or members of criminal organizations. THE ASSASSIN In safe assassinations, the assassin needs the usual qualities of a clandestine agent. He should be determined, courageous, intelligent, resourceful, and physically active. If special equipment is to be used, such as firearms or drugs, it is clear that he must have outstanding skill with such equipment. Except in terroristic assassinations, it is desirable that the assassin be transient in the area. He should have an absolute minimum of contact with the rest of the organization and his instructions should be given orally by one person only. His safe evacuation after the act is absolutely essential, but here again contact should be as limited as possible. It is preferable that the person issuing instructions also conduct any withdrawal or covering action which may be necessary. In lost assassination, the assassin must be a fanatic of some sort. Politics, religion, and revenge are about the only feasible motives. Since a fanatic is unstable psychologically, he must be handled with extreme care. He must not know the identities of the other members of the organization, for although it is intended that he die in the act, something may go wrong. Will the Assassin of Trotsky has never revealed any significant information, it was unsound to depend on this when the act was planned. PLANNING When the decision to assassinate has been reached, the tactics of the operation must be planned, based upon an estimate of the situation similar to that used in military operations. The preliminary estimate will reveal gaps in information and possible indicate a need for special equipment which must be procured or constructed. When all necessary data has been collected, an effective tactical plan can be prepared. All planning must be mental; no papers should ever contain evidence of the operation. In resistance situations, assassination may be used as a counter-reprisal. Since this requires advertising to be effective, the resistance organization must be in a position to warn high officials publicly that their lives will be the price of reprisal action against innocent people. Such a threat is of no value unless it can be carried out, so it may be necessary to plan the assassination of various responsible officers of the oppressive regime and hold such plans in readiness to be used only if provoked by excessive brutality. Such plans must be modified frequently to meet changes in the tactical situation. TECHNIQUES The essential point of assassination is the death of the subject. A human being may be killed in many ways but sureness is often overlooked by those who may be emotionally unstrung by the seriousness of this act they intend to commit. The specific technique employed will depend upon a large number of variables, but should be constant in one point: Death must be absolutely certain. The attempt on Hitler’s life failed because the conspiracy did not give this matter proper attention. Techniques may be considered as follows: 1. Manual It is possible to kill a man with bare hands, but very few are skillful enough to do it well. Even a highly trained Judo expert will hesitate to risk killing by hand unless he has absolutely no alternative. However, the simplest local tools are often much the most efficient means of assassination. A hammer, axe, wrench, screw driver, fire poker, kitchen knife, lamp stand, or anything hard, heavy and handy will suffice. A length of rope or wire or a belt will do if the assassin is strong and agile. All such improvised weapons have the important advantage of availability and apparent innocence. The obviously lethal machine gun failed to kill Trotsky where an item of sporting goods succeeded. In all safe cases where the assassin may be subject to search, either before or after the act, specialized weapons should not be used. Even in the lost case, the assassin may accidentally be searched before the act and should not carry an incriminating device if any sort of lethal weapon can be improvised at or near the site. If the assassin normally carries weapons because of the nature of his job, it may still be desirable to improvise and implement at the scene to avoid disclosure of his identity. 2. Accidents For secret assassination, either simple or chase, the contrived accident is the most effective technique. When successfully executed, it causes little excitement and is only casually investigated. The most efficient accident, in simple assassination, is a fall of 75 feet or more onto a hard surface. Elevator shafts, stair wells, unscreened windows and bridges will serve. Bridge falls into water are not reliable. In simple cases a private meeting with the subject may be arranged at a properly-cased location. The act may be executed by sudden, vigorous [excised] of the ankles, tipping the subject over the edge. If the assassin immediately sets up an outcry, playing the “horrified witness”, no alibi or surreptitious withdrawal is necessary. In chase cases it will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject before dropping him. Care is required to insure that no wound or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death. Falls into the sea or swiftly flowing rivers may suffice if the subject cannot swim. It will be more reliable if the assassin can arrange to attempt rescue, as he can thus be sure of the subject’s death and at the same time establish a workable alibi. If the subject’s personal habits make it feasible, alcohol may be used [2 words excised] to prepare him for a contrived accident of any kind. Falls before trains or subway cars are usually effective, but require exact timing and can seldom be free from unexpected observation. Automobile accidents are a less satisfactory means of assassination. If the subject is deliberately run down, very exact timing is necessary and investigation is likely to be thorough. If the subject’s car is tampered with, reliability is very low. The subject may be stunned or drugged and then place in the car, but this is only reliable when the car can be run off a high cliff or into deep water without observation. Arson can cause accidental death if the subject is drugged and left in a burning building. Reliability is not satisfactory unless the building is isolated and highly combustible. 3. Drugs In all types of assassination except terroristic, drugs can be very effective. If the assassin is trained as a doctor or nurse and the subject is under medical care, this is an easy and rare method. An overdose of morphine administered as a sedative will cause death without disturbance and is difficult to detect. The size of the dose will depend upon whether the subject has been using narcotics regularly. If no, two grains will suffice. If the subject drinks heavily, morphine or a similar narcotic can be injected at the passing out stage, and the cause of death will often be held to be acute alcoholism. Specific poisons, such as arsenic or strychnine, are effective but their possession or procurement is incriminating, and accurate dosage is problematical. Poison was used unsuccessfully in the assassination or Rasputin and Kolohan, though the latter case is more accurately described as a murder. 4. Edge weapons Any locally obtained edge device may be successfully employed. A certain minimum of anatomical knowledge is needed for reliability. Puncture wounds of the body cavity may not be reliable unless the heart is reached. The heart is protected by the rib cage and is not always easy to locate. Abdominal wounds were once nearly always mortal, but modern medical treatment has made this no longer true. Absolute reliability is obtained by severing the spinal cord in the cervical region. This can be done with the point of a knife or a light blow of an axe or hatchet. Another reliable method is the severing of both jugular and carotid blood vessels on both sides of the windpipe. If the subject has been rendered unconscious by other wounds or drugs, either of the above methods can be used to insure death. 5. Blunt weapons As with edge weapons, blunt weapons require some anatomical knowledge for effective use. Their main advantage is their universal availability. A hammer may be picked up almost anywhere in the world. Baseball and [illeg] bats are very widely distributed. Even a rock or a heavy stick will do, and nothing resembling a weapon need be procured, carried or subsequently disposed of. Blows should be directed to the temple, the area just below and behind the ear, and the lower, rear portion of the skull. Of course, if the blow is very heavy, any portion of the upper skull will do. The lower frontal portion of the head, from the eyes to the throat, can withstand enormous blows without fatal consequences. 6. Firearms Firearms are often used in assassination, often very ineffectively. The assassin usually has insufficient technical knowledge of the limitations of weapons, and expects more range, accuracy and killing power than can be provided with reliability. Since certainty of death is the major requirement, firearms should be used which can provide destructive power at least 100% in excess of that thought to be necessary, and ranges should be half that considered practical for the weapon. Firearms have other drawbacks. Their possession is often incriminating. They may be difficult to obtain. They require a degree of experience from the user. They [illeg] is consistently over-rated. However, there are many cases in which firearms are probably more efficient than any other means. These cases usually involve distance betweeen the assassin and the subject, or comparative physical weakness of the assassin, as with a woman. (a) The precision rifle. In guarded assassination, a good hunting or target rifle should always be considered as a possibility. Absolute reliability can nearly always be achieved at a distance of one hundred yards. In ideal circumastances, the range may be extended to 250 yards. The rifle shold be a wll made bolt or falling block action type, handling a powerful long-range cartirdge. The .300 F.A.B. Magnum is probably the best cartridge readily available. other excellent calibers are .375 M.[illeg]. Magnum, .270 Winchester, .30 - 106 p.s., 8 x 60 MM Magnum, 9.3 X 62 KK and others of this type. These are preferable to ordinary military calibers, since ammunition available for them is usually of the expanding bullet type, whereas most ammunition for military refles is full jacketed and hence not sufficiently lethal. Military ammunition should not be altered by filing or drilling bullets, as this will adversely affect accuracy. The rifle may be of the "bull gun" variety, with extra heavy barrel and set triggers, but in any case should be able to group in one inch at one hundred yards, but 2 1/2" groups are adequate. The sight shold be telescopic, not only for accuracy, but because such a sight is much better in dim light or near darkness. As long as the bare outline of the target is discernable, a telescope sight will work, even if the rifle and shooter are in total darkness. An expanding, hunting bullet of such calibers as described above will produce extravagant laceration and shock at short or mid-range. if a man is struck just once in the body cavity, his death is almost entirely certain. Public figures or guarded officials may be killed withgreat reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value of this system may be very high. b. The machine gun. Machine guns may be used in most cases where the precision rifle is applicable. Usually this will require the subversion of a unit of an official guard at a ceremony, though a skillful and determined team might conceivably dispose of a loyal gun crow without commotion and take over the gun at the critical time. The area fire capacity of the machine gun should not be used to search out a concealed subject. This was tried with predictable lack of success on Trotsky. The automatic feature of the machine gun should rather be used to increase reliability by placing a 5 second burst on the subject. Even with full jacket ammunition, this will be absolute lethal is the burst pattern is no larger than a man. This can be accomplished at about 150 yards. In ideal circumstances, a properly padded and targeted machine gun can do it at 850 yards. The major difficulty is placing the first burst exactly on the target, as most machine gunners are trained to spot their fire on target by observation of strike. This will not do in assassination as the subject will not wait. © The Submachine Gun. This weapon, known as the "machine-pistol" by the Russians and Germans and "machine-carbide" by the British, is occasionally useful in assassination. Unlike the rifle and machine gun, this is a short range weapon and since it fires pistol ammunition, much less powerful. To be reliable, it should deliver at least 5 rounds into the subject's chest, though the .45 caliber U.S. weaponshave a much larger margin of killing efficiency than the 9 mm European arms. The assassination range of the sub-machine gun is point blank. While accurate single rounds can be delivered by sub-machine gunners at 50 yards or more, this is not certain enough for assassination. Under ordinary circumstances, the 5MG shold be used as a fully automatic weapon. In the hands of a capable gunner, a high cyclic rate is a distinct advantage, as speed of execution is most desirable, particularly in the case of multiple subjects. The sub-machine gun is especially adapted to indoor work when more than one subject is to be assassinated. An effective technique has been devised for the use of a pair of sub-machine gunners, by which a room contailning as many as a dozen subjectgs can be "purifico" in about twenty seconds with little or no risk to the gunners. It is illustratrated below. While the U.S. sub-machine guns fire the most lethal cartridges, the higher cyclic rate of some foreigh weapons enable the gunner to cover a target quicker with acceptable pattern density. The Bergmann Model 1934 is particularly good in this way. The Danish Madman? SMG has a moderately good cyclic rate and is admirably compact and concealable. The Russian SHG's have a good cyclic rate, but are handicapped by a small, light protective which requires more kits for equivalent killing effect. (d) The Shotgun.... [end of available text] “Murder is not morally justifiable” “assassinations in which the subject … is aware but unguarded will be termed ‘chase’” “…no papers should ever contain evidence of the operation” “Blows should be directed to the temple” Frank Olsons’s body was exhumed and a forensic investigation was performed in 1994, three years before the CIA’s 1953 assassination manual (which recommended a blow to the head before dropping the subject) was declassified and released in 1997. The 1994 forensic investigation discovered a hematoma over the left eye of Olson’s skull that had resulted from a blow to Olson’s head. According to the findings of the forensic team, this blow must have occurred before Frank Olson exited the window. “the contrived accident is the most effective technique” “The most efficient accident, in simple assassination, is a fall of 75 feet or more onto a hard surface.” “…no alibi or surreptitious withdrawal is necessary…” “In chase cases it will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject before dropping him.” “Care is required to insure that no wound or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death.” “In all types of assassination except terroristic, drugs can be very effective.” “If … the subject is under medical care, this is an easy and rare method.” .............your tax dollars at work............ Published online by the Frank Olson Legacy Project : frankolsonproject

AHA! Just when I thought I was in over my head and had nothing to contribute, this Douglas Caddy character comes up. Fred Emery, (Watergate; Touchstone 1994) had this to say about Caddy: "(immediately after the burglary arrests)...Hunt and Liddy left an amazing haul of easily traceable material behind in [Howard Johnson hotel] Room 214. More was in Room 314, the key to which was also seized from the break-in team ['Macho' i.e., Bernard Barker]. This blunder wrecked whatever strategy they had for maintaining deniability.... Liddy recalled one further detail: Before parting he told Hunt to get in touch with "Caddy" and use the money. Douglas Caddy was a lawyer who had worked at Mullen with Hunt... Hunt drove to Caddy's apartment and related what had happened. Caddy was a very right-wing young man, according to Hunt's associate Robert Bennett. He, too, had worked for Mullen but Bennett arranged Caddy's transfer to the law firm where he was now working... [at the jail after fingerprinting] "Frank Carter" turned out to be Bernard Barker; "Jene Valdez" was Eugenio Rolando Martinez; "Raoul Godoy" was Virgilio Gonzalez. Two of those arrested carried fake CIA identification "Edward J. Hamilton" (one of Hunt's old aliases) and "Joseph di Alberto" were the same man, Frank Sturgis, and "Edward Martin" was McCord, who also carried Hunt's alternative "Edward Warren"... {Later Caddy withdrew from the defense of Liddy and Hunt and refused the $25,000 in hush money which then went to Hunt's new lawyer, William Bittman.} Small world, ain't it?

Don Some other questions about your impressive research chart. One, how firm are the names of the people on the overpass? Were they really all RR employees? They look like police/detectives. Two, how elevated was Nix relative to Moorman? They had similar point of views, but the classic gunman and carhood show up clearly in the Nix motion picture but not in Moorman's polaroid...also, where do you think the car (the carhood near classic gunman figure) was? Could the car have been up close to the retaining wall? It looks like it in Nix. Has anyone identified the car behind the wall? Do you agree that the limousine had slowed to eight miles an hour? Were the brake lights on? Thank you for all your efforts.............

John, Are you familiar with XLIBRIS, the new print-to-order publishing company? They take your digital text, and for less than $900 will put a legitimate cover, artwork and trade-listing package together, then print to order one copy at a time, with no overhead or inventory... I'm sure this collection would break even and have a sustained tangible impact if published in this exciting new format... Thank you for the opportunity to present my thoughts on the nature of the twenty fifth amendment to the Constitution in relation to the Dallas murders. Due to the theoretical nature of my new "incapacity of the President" hypothesis, I had no footnote references to offer at this time, but in future seminars, I will footnote in the professional style, as the others did so magnificently. A great, great series of scholarly papers were presented...

Dawn Did you see the CSPAN Conference Session by David Wimp? Software engineer. He showed that the ZAPRUDER film shows Kennedy's head moving forward slightly simultaneously with the headshot only BECAUSE the 1963 Secret Service driver (Greer) was braking the vehicle down to eight miles an hour at that moment... the application of the brakes made BOTH JFK AND Agent Kellerman's heads bob forward together at the crucial film frame. Wimp noted that a heavy limousine on a downhill grade, with an automatic transmission, will COAST at over fifteen miles an hour...it was definitely braking to "eight miles an hour" for the ambuscade, after the throat shot and initial rounds were already fired and had been heard by the security detail......... You know what I think of scientific evidence like that.... Agent Greer never would have done this without the explicit command traceable to one Clarence Douglass Dillon, President Kennedy's disloyal Secretary of Treasury, the 1963 Secret Service's Cabinet Executive as described in the 25th amendment....... Shanet

Good Paper Ties in with LEGEND, the book that shows the intricacy of DeMorenschildts' relationship with the Oswalds. A reasonable conclusion is that DeMorenschildt was the CIA handler appointed to watch Marina Oswald, who was in the family of a colonel in the GRU (KGB?)... then DeMorenschildt damn near adopted Oswald. The basic point is so clear....ANYONE who could leave the Marines and defect into Russia only to counter-defect back to the States was obviously either an intelligence asset for the USA, an intelligence asset for the USSR, or both. The fact that Oswald did classified U-2 related radio/radar work at Atsugi shows that he was a Naval Intelligence asset. The fact that over 100,000 doses of MK/ULTRA CIA LSD was in the safe at Atsugi shows that he was in immediate contact with MK/ULTRA Manchurian Candidate programmers while still in the Marines. (Colby documents @ frankolsonproject.com) He was interrogated in Dallas, no report was released. He was murdered before trial, therefore becoming a "lost" alleged assassin. His own papers were filled with ridiculously self incriminating photos and documents, and he was in contact with FBI agent Hosty and CIA domestic WH agent Howard Hunt. His palm print was found on the Mannlicher Carcanno after it was known not to be there. Is this suspicious? Evidence of a conspiracy? Of course it is......... Shanet

The current President Bush made these two statement recently: "...another thing that is interesting is that my grandfather was a United States Senator. And I vividly remember visiting him as a little guy. He lived in Georgetown. And I can remember him taking me to a cocktail party where he introduced me to Lyndon Baines Johnson. And I got to see other political figures of the time up close..." "...take for example Vietnam. it was a war that was at times fought from the White House, by the civilians in the government. It was a war where politics sometimes intervened and affected military decisions---in other words, affected the commanders on the ground. I think that is a very important lesson for any Commander in Chief to look at..." {Even within the context of a puff piece softball interview, these are illuminating.} Interview with Carl S. Anthony, May 13, 2004 White House American Heritage Magazine, November 2004

Great thread. Not much to add, except that the point is clear that the MI guys knew too much and got caught covering up, a typical scenario. As far as a further search, remember that the MK/Ultra operational files were destroyed by Helms but the program was exposed when the financial records were unearthed. Shanet

Thanks Clarence Douglass Dillon, Wm. Draper, the Union Bank (Brown Bros. Harriman); Sullivan and Cromwell (the Dulles international law firm); Mr. Robert Lovett and Dillon-Read all coagulated into a giant octopus of internationalist (by that I mean their loyalties were not at all limited to the best interests of the USA) fascist shadow government in the US and abroad after 1945... The interpenetration of these pro-fascist organizations help us to explain operation PAPERCLIP, the activities of Frank Wisner, Secretary Forrestal's madness and death, and other inexplicable and provocative events in 20th century US history. The US, because of the Cold War, never really de-mobilized or dropped its wartime censorship, or security clearances, etc., and in fact used these wartime cloaking devices to paper over US/Nazi relationships like the postwar Gehlen Org/Allen Dulles relationship, the postwar IG Farben/Dupont/Standard oil relationships and the postwar US rocketry boom (made possible by Nazi scientists on US agency and corporate payrolls). Of course assassinations and manchurian candidates (MK/ULTRA) followed on these "anti-communist" relationships being allowed to thrive, and these institutions claimed the 'MIC' and removed JFK. This forms the background for JFK's loss of security clearance, executive sanction, the Warren Commission and the ex post facto legitimization attempt inherent in the 25th amendment...this is just a continuation of the research of Carl Oglesby and Fletcher Prouty, I add only the theoretical capstone, offering a new interpretation of the constitutional amendment circa 1965-1967........ Read it, Lyndon Johnson and C.D. Dillon are the main characters! Shanet

I know who he is talking about. What's the angle? Shanet Jim, Now you've really nailed me with my ignorance. I can't recall ever even hearing of a William Draper. Please fill me in. Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting and often overlooked problem with the Oswald/Lone Gunman theory. He was facing the President from the sixth floor when the 1963 Secret Service presidential limosine rounded the corner. Hoover's explanation is very weak. The delay and longer shot range from rear was part of a triangulated ambush out in the open with shooters on the Knoll (n/s) using the overpass RR tracks for escape routes, and rear shooters (Brading? Rooftop man?) This postioning of JFK for the kill probably has to do with Point of View of Zapruder as well and expected echo distortion. Oswald is so utterly discredited as sole assailant, this is just another coffin nail. Thanks, Al, you add a lot to our group, excellent posting.... Shanet

Thanks Jack Any line of research leading into John Kennedy's medical history, whether behavioural, psychological, psychosexual -- or strictly corporeal and pharmaceutical -- will lead to the Incapacity Pretext and Rationale. His adrenal condition was unknown and could have played a role in the 1964 election. His reactions to cortiso-steroids of the period would have been idiosynchrous, but certainly the above cited scenario is reasonable, and leads to the Incapacity Pretext and rationale. Care must be used in demonstrating the contextual proof of the Incapacity Rationale and Pretext, as Mr. Kennedy's health and private personal issues, as addressed by the security clearance granting community and militant right wing political oppposition tend to tarnish JFK's earned elected and defended Legacy. Your support appreciated, I am still learning from the massive amount of information available here and on the internet in general. That wasn't a comprehensive list, but I was trying to bring the Cabinet level and secret intelligence authorities into the light of day. Based on what has been posted recently, I would add Maxwell Taylor, William Bundy and McGeorge Bundy to the list of characters in a postion to strip JFK of his security clearances and push for his sanction on grounds of "incapacity." Jim Root and John Korienek have shown the power of Maxwell Taylor and Robert Lovett, and Lovett helps explain Clarence Douglass Dillon. The 1963 Secret Service is the key to the whole thing, along with the Naval and Armed Forces post mortems, this is what the 25th "exonerated" and where they left their guilty fingerprints, on the US Constitution... When you read the Twenty Fifth Amendment, notice a couple of things: the cold introduction "In the event the president is removed" sounds like a live report from Dallas, you could punctuate it "In the Event: The President IS removed" etc. By setting up the VP and Cabinet as arbiters of Presidential "Capacity," it strengthened the Executive Branch at the expense of the House and Senate, and is obviously an ex post facto rationalization for the events of 1963. I believe this approach will be vindicated in 2039, and be common knowledge thereafter. The assassination was "legal" for the militant reactionaries is power, those with a stranglehold on the Oval Office....hence the puzzlingly large and ambitious conspiracy we are confronted with in "faces in the crowd" the medical evidence, the FBI and Warren "investigations" etc. Shanet

Wim and James You two guys are miracle workers. Every time something interesting comes up, you have names, memos, photos, etc. All I can say is that I remember that report and have always thought it rang true. Shanet

Reasonable Post. You should get a real name, bio and picture, though, you will be taken more seriously. Short answer, they don't know and don't want to know. About the last thing a Bill Clinton or a Jimmy Carter is going to do is call in the CIA chief and say tell me everything you know about the assassinations. They have their suspicions and don't rock the boat. Power in the stock market doesn't add up to political power in the secret classified environment. Soros and Buffett don't know and don't want to know. A certain kind of blindness affects the senses of the elites, a lack of curiosity, an unwillingness to risk present advantage for future truths...the Ford Slip, the Blakey conclusions, thats about all you will get....the general sense that it is past and should stay buried, these are the essence of PATRIOTIC NATIONALIST SELF INTEREST: see no evil hear no evil speak no evil My country right or wrong, the past is behind us, let sleeping dogs lie. That is the essence of the moderate political elite's mindset. Critical thinkers, investigative reformers and fearless folk ((like us)) refuse to bend to such cultural dogma, and we break free of our nationalistic indoctrination, rejecting the false paradigm in favor of ruthless quests for truth and satisfactory explanations of the evidence. Shanet

Ugly harassment. Gross intimidation. Woeful ignorance. Shanet

James The Kolby photo and the Florer photo look very similar, a convincing case here. I am quite certain "Florer" and "Braden" gave scripted disinformation after the shooting concerning what they were doing around the Dal-Tex, a ballistic point of origin. What do you have on Kolby? Who was he again? Shanet

Dawn Some people have no biography and have no face: and they are the ones who know the truth about the Kennedy assassination! Seriously, I am quite proud of the level of discourse here. The wingnuts have been tamed and the "cream rises to the top..." Thanks to everyone for participating fully and taking some small risks by identifying yourselves .... Shanet