John Dolva

A Minor point Richard, it doesn't look like a flip to me , his palm is towards Oseald with fingers relaxed, more like a bye bye ot perhaps be cool. Nice to see a pic of Oswald from another direction than the usual. Edit :: Rather than clutter topic: reply to Richard : fair enough, that frame doesn't look like it to me, but i believe you .

I've recalculated the towner speed using 8.9 as the speed of the Limousine just as the Towner film takes over from the Dorman film. This gives a frame rate of 31 fps for the dorman film. Checking this at the point closest to Towner gives a Limo speed at start of Elm of 9.98 mph. I am guessing but I wouldn't be surprised that Towners camera the was running at 2 x 16 or 32 fps. With error margin it's probably reasonable to say that along Houston and the Towner part of the Elm route the Limo was travelling at a steady 10 plus or minus one mph. So the next step is to bring that down to the z film and cross check with the earlier Muchmore film study and to bring bell and nix films/cameras into it. "33 frames over 4.65 yards when the limo is travelling at 8.9mph. 8.9 x 1760 yards in 60 x 60 seconds : 4.35 yards in one second. 33 frames in 1.07 seconds 30.9 frames per second. The camera is rated at 16 and 48 fps. It would appear it ran at 31 fps when Tina took her film. I wonder if it was stepped also at 32? 16, 32, 48 6 1/3 frames over 3.4 feet or 1.13 yards. which is 29.5 frames for 4.65 yards. if frame rate is 31 frames per second. then when the limo is closest to Tina it is 4.88 yards in one second. This is one mile in 360.7 seconds, and this is 9.98 miles in one hour!" EDIT :: If one takes the driver as the best witness as to speed then "William Greer, operator of the Presidential limousine, estimated the car's speed at the time of the first shot as 12 to 15 miles per hour." This to me seems quite reasonable as at the turn the speed was about 10 and then he picked up a bit over the distamnce to the first shot where the speed was probably in the lower of his estimate range. Knowing there fore already the frame rate calculations and FBI estimates, it's probably correct to accept the z camera as stated and related speeds etc.

from Gary: John, The Dorman camera, which was found and donated to The Sixth Floor Museum two years ago, was a Kodak Brownie that was geared for 16fps. When I supervised the transfer of the camera original film to tape many years ago, we found that a film speed of 18fps was obviously too fast, whereas 16fps yielded human movement in the family scenes that was very natural looking. According to clear copies of the Dorman and Hughes films, the JFK limo actually drifted slightly to the left (the west) as it turned. The Towner and Dorman films show that it turned directly into the middle lane of Elm Street. Gary Mack . OK, Gary, thank you again. So the speed just as the Towner film part of the Motorcade starts on Houston is around 9mph. For simplicity's sake for now I'll use 9 mph as a base for comparing the two. I'll recheck the drift over a longer stretch. Thanks again.

I agree. The antidote is education. The 'education' that the fundamentalists in the USA for example are imposing creates individuals that are far more malleable by for example media campaingns against minorities. At the core of segregation in the US for example was provision of a poor quality education to black people. Instead they were offered religious instruction and such things as homecraft. A person must learn how to identify lies and therefore must have exposure to a wide range of information. There are arguments that the last few decades has seen a dumbing down of the sverage student in some parts of the world. Mysticism, supernatural ideas and such things as media manipulation (primarily to get people to vote in certain ways, to accept things otherwise unacceptable and to spend their monies in particular ways) follow. Similarly to permit a totally Kant driven approach has its dangers. Kant was primarily influenced by Rousseau, who seemed to be more attuned to spirituality, and Kant himself developed through his life. Others have been influenced and developed further or looked elsewhere. The age of enlightenment is not one I've studied so will enjoy reading the posts here. Personally I don't think I as a christian have more or less rights than an atheist or a 'santa clausist' in haveing a right to didctate such things. I see christianitys role as taking its place in society offering a way, if it can't successfully meet peoples needs, particularly as education and exposure to alternatives increases, it should naturally fade from the picture. I of course don't believe it will fail to do so. We'll see.

A section of the Dorman film close to the start of the Towner film has 17.75 frames covering 167.5inches. so 4. 65 yards over 17.75 frames. If one ASSUMES a frame rate of 16 this equates to 4.2 yards in one second, or 8.6 mph. If one ASSUMES a frame rate of 18 this equates to 4.7 yards in one second, or 9.6 mph. this appears to correlate well with the speed derived from a Towner frame rate of 16. Is the frame rate (manufactured specs and measured) of Dormans camera known? Where is Dormans camera today? Edit:: a refining sets the frame rate at closer to 17 frames per wheelbase. This means a speed closer to 8.9 mph at 16 frames per second, and 10.1 at 18 frames per second. a full sized enhanced pic of the section at : http://files.photojerk.com/yanndee/dormanspeed1.jpg (as can be seen, the location of the Limo at this point is easily stamped using the traffic lights as reference.) Also one can see that as the Limousine is approaching the corner it does swing off to the right, possibly widening the diameter of the turn by perhaps a couple of feet, This may have been noted by a witness and the statement then misinterpreted as a wide swing around the corner while in fact it is minimal but noticable.

Some more info on Gen. Walker. (I'll log a totally unsubstantiated thought here that may for reasons I'm not aware of, at some time be worth considering : Edwin Lopez: Lopez..a spanishisation of lope or the stride of a tall person, Walker was 6'3") In 1961, Gen. Edwin Walker was commander of the 24th Division of the U.S. Army in West Germany, when he was relieved of his command because he attempted to indoctrinate his men with his political philosophy. Soon after, he resigned from the Army. In 1962-63, Gen. Edwin Walker had the financial backing of Haroldson L. Hunt, in his campaign to fight communism in the U.S.. H. L. Hunt was the richest oilman in Texas. Both men lived and worked in Dallas and were members of the John Birch Society. The Strange Case of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker - http://www.textfiles.com/conspiracy/walker.txt General Edwin A. Walker is known to most JFK assassination buffs as the man whom Oswald allegedly shot at in April 1963. The general's right-wing connections are often noted, as is the fact that he was forced out of his command by the Kennedy administration for his political indoctrination of his troops. His activities during the race riots in Oxford, Mississippi in 1962 are also often mentioned, when he was arrested on four federal charges including insurrection. His public statement at Oxford was as follows: This is Edwin A. Walker. I am in Mississippi beside Gov. Ross Barnett. I call for a national protest against the conspiracy from within. Rally to the cause of freedom in righteous indignation, violent vocal protest and bitter silence under the flag of Mississippi at the use of Federal troops. This today is a disgrace to the nation in 'dire peril,' a disgrace beyond the capacity of anyone except its enemies. This is the conspiracy of the crucifixion by anti-Christ conspirators of the Supreme Court in their denial of prayer and their betrayal of a nation. [source NYT, 9/30/62] The Army ordered General Walker to undergo psychiatric testing. The general's case is strange indeed. But another fact, not often mentioned, makes his activities in 1961-3 even stranger. Going back to 1957, we find him in charge of *enforcing* the desegregation order in Little Rock, Arkansas. His public statements on the matter were limited to exhorting the public to uphold the will of the courts and desegregate peacefully. The following article details his biography up to that time. ============================================================================ New York Times, September 25, 1957, page 18 HE GUARDS THE PEACE Edwin Anderson Walker LITTLE ROCK, Sept. 24 -- Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker, who will be responsible for maintaining peace in Little Rock, was described by staff officers today as "tough, but fair." A tall, lean-visaged Texan, General Walker came to Little Rock only seven weeks ago as commander of the Arkansas Military District. He is still a stranger to the city. Today, General Walker was at his desk in a downtown office building at 7 A.M. He had not yet received formal orders to take over the Arkansas National Guard, but he knew what was coming. Already orders carrying his signature were being processed for the deployment of National Guard units. He will command a combined force of regulars and Federalized Guardsmen. He stands 6 feet 3 inches in height. He is a bachelor and has been considered a prize for hostesses wherever he has been stationed. He was born in Center Point, Texas, on Nov. 10, 1909. General Walker's favorite expression is "check," a word he snaps to indicate a mission has been accomplished or that he understands his orders. As a member of the Special Services group, he was required to be a paratrooper. At his test, he approached a subordinate and asked: "How do you put this thing on?" He received a fast five-minute briefing and climbed into an airplane. He jumped, landed safe and snapped to the test officer: "Check." General Walker is a combat officer. He has seen action in World War II and in Korea. He has carried out a number of unusual and hazardous assignments, particularly during World War II. He started his military career as an artillery officer after he graduated from West Point in 1931. But he switched to commando operations during the war and led a special force of Canadians and Americans, in Italy and in France. This outfit, trained for airborne, amphibious, mountain and ski operations, was called the Special Services Force. General Walker led the Third Regiment, First Special Service Force, in its initial operation at Kiska during the Aleutians campaign. When the commandos were transferred to the Italian campaign, General Walker led the first Special Service Force in tough mountain fighting up the Italian peninsula and at Anzio beachhead. A Surprise Landing In August, 1944, his men made a surprise landing on the Hyeres Islands off the French Riviera and killed or captured a strong German garrison that could have jeopardized the Seventh Army landings on the mainland near by. With the Hyeres occupied, his troops rejoined the main invasion force and moved up the Rhone Valley. Toward the end of the war he was detached from the commandos and placed in command of the 417 Infantry Regiment, a separate force attached to the Third Army. At V-E Day he was commanding a special task unit in Oslo. Returning to the United States in January, 1946, General Walker served as assistant director of the combined arms department, Field Artillery School, Fort Sill, Okla. He was in charge of the Greek desk at the Pentagon during the Greek civil war and made an official visit to Greece and Turkey. During the Korean War, General Walker commanded the Seventh Regiment of the Third Infantry Division and later was senior adviser to Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. His last assignment before coming to Little Rock was as commanding general at the Twenty-fifth Artillery Division in Hawaii. He holds the Silver Star and the Bronze Star with oak leaf cluster. ============================================================================ This is the man arrested on four federal charges in Mississippi in 1962? Those charges were: Section 111-- For assault and resisting or other opposing Federal officers, including marshals, in the performance of their duty. Section 372-- For conspiracy to prevent a Federal officer from discharging his duties. Section 2383-- For inciting or engaging in an insurrection against the United States. Section 2384-- For conspiracy to overthrow or oppose by force the execution of the laws of the United States. A conspiracy is defined legally as including two or more persons. On October 7, 1962, Walker posted $50,000 bond and returned home to Dallas amid 200 cheering supporters carrying signs like "Welcome Home, General Walker," "Win With General Walker," and "President '64." On January 21, 1963, a federal grand jury in Oxford, Mississippi adjourned without indicting Walker on any of the four counts against him. The Justice Department dismissed the charges "without prejudice" after the grand jury failed to indict. The dismissal "without prejudice" meant that the charges could be reinstated before the five year statute of limitations expired. Walker and his supporters then went on the offensive. On April 2, 1963, a group called the Citizens Congressional Committee filed a petition with the Senate Judiciary Committee requesting an investigation of the treatment of "America's fearless patriot on the occasion of his incarceration at the instigation of the Department of Justice." Nine days later, on April 9, Walker was sitting at his desk at home when the famous shooting incident occurred. Meanwhile, the American Medical Association was receiving "a volume of letters from individual physicians" charging Dr. Charles E. Smith, the Army psychiatrist -- who commented on Walker's mental state at the time of the Oxford violence -- with unethical conduct: that he made an improper diagnosis without a personal examination. Dr. Smith was cleared by the AMA on July 4, 1963. He said that news stories of Walker's "reported behavior reflects sensitivity and essentially unpredictable and seemingly bizarre outbursts of the type often observed in individuals suffering with paranoid mental disorder." The society had received 2,500 letters from physicians alleging unethical conduct by Dr. Smith. Nevertheless, the board unanimously ruled in Smith's favor. Walker then took his case to court, filing a total of $23 million dollars in libel damages against numerous media outlets alleging that they had made "false statements" and that their "suppression of truth was motivated by malice and a desire to hurt and harm him in his good reputation and blacken his good name." The statements in question were that he "led a charge of students against Federal marshals on the Ole Miss campus" and various other statements attributing to him a very active role in leading the insurrection such as "Walker assumed command of the crowd." A jury in Fort Worth awarded an $800,000 judgment against the Associated Press, ruling that malice was intended. The offensive was also being taken up by Republicans in Congress in an alliance with Southern Democrats, who wanted to embarrass Attorney General Robert Kennedy because of his civils rights activities. The House Judiciary Committee voted on September 1, 1964 by a margin of 18 to 14 to open an investigation of the Justice Department's handling of cases including, but not limited to, those of Jimmy Hoffa, Roy M. Cohn, and former Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker. The vote among Republican and Southern Democratic committee members was 16-2; that of non-Southern Democrats was 2-12. Meanwhile, a Louisiana jury awarded Walker $3 million in damages in another one of his libel suits. His luck started to turn sour however, and finally on June 12, 1967, the Supreme Court ruled 9-0 extending the constitutional protection of freedom of the press to libelous falsehoods about private individuals who willingly take part in public affairs. Such protections were already in place concerning libel against political officials, but this was a landmark case extending the applicability to private individuals who willingly venture into the public arena. Walker's awards were overturned. Chief Justice Warren explained, "Our citizenry has a legitimate and substantial interest in the conduct of such persons... Freedom of the press to engage in uninhibited debate about their involvement in public issues should be subject to derogatory criticism, even when based on false statements." Walker's name occasionally surfaced in the press after this, usually in connection with anti-UN activities or in connection with the presidential campaign of George Wallace. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPENDIX These articles concern the controversy about right-wing extremism in the military in the early Sixties, specifically related to General Walker and the Kennedy administration. ============================================================================= New York Times, June 18, 1961, page 1 Right-Wing Officers Worrying Pentagon by Cabell Philips WASHINGTON, June 17 -- The Pentagon is having its troubles with right-wingers in uniform. A number of officers of high and middle rank are indoctrinating their commands and the civilian population near their bases with political theories resembling those of the John Birch Society. They are also holding up to criticism and ridicule some official policies of the United States Government. The most conspicuous example of some of these officers was Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker, who was officially "admonished" for his activities by the Secretary of the Army earlier this week. General Walker's offense was in saying that a number of prominent Americans, as well as elements of the newspaper and television industries, were tainted with Communist ideology. He did this in the course of a continuing effort that the general said was "designed to develop an understanding of the American military and civil heritage, responsibility toward that heritage and the facts and objectives of those enemies who would destroy it." General Walker was the commander of the Twenty-Fourth Infantry Division in Germany at the time... The problem for the Pentagon arises out of the fact that a number of its higher ranking officers have participated in or publically lent their support to a variety of so-called forums, schools, and seminars, ostensibly focused on the issues of national security. However, many of those groups -- at least incidentally -- are preoccupied with radically right-wing political philosophies. Stress on Anti-Communism The chief ingredient of these philosophies is often a militant anti-communism. The argument is that Communist subversion today is rife among the schools, the churches, labor unions, Government offices, and elsewhere. In this argument, liberalism is equated with socialism and socialism with communism. Thus it opposes most welfare legislation, many programs for international cooperation such as foreign aid and disarmament conferences... The genesis of this program goes back to the so-called "cold war policy" evolved by the National Security Council in the summer of 1958... Cold War Widened President Eisenhower and his top policy leaders decreed that the "cold war" could not be fought as a series of separate and often unrelated actions, as with foreign aid and propaganda. Rather, it must be fought with a concentration of all the resources of the Government and with the full understanding and support of the civilian population. It was decided, in particular, that the military should be used to reinforce the "cold war" effort. This was the substance of the still-classified "cold-war policy" paper of the National Security Council... Of the hundreds of military bases here and abroad, only a score have become involved in these programs to the point that they have caused alarm among the new civilian team in the Pentagon. Officials suspect, however, that the trend is somewhat more widespread than their reports currently indicate. They are quietly trying to find out how widespread it is. A typical example about which they do know is a seminar labeled Project Action. This was held at the Naval Air Station, Wold-Chamberlain Field, Minneapolis, on April 28 and 29 of this year. Capt. Robert T. Kieling is the commanding officer of the station. He was a co-sponsor of the program in collaboration with a committee of the Minneapolis-St. Paul Chamber of Commerce. The official announcement described the program as follows: "The purpose of Project Action is to inspire the citizens of this area to take an active part in the war against the danger that threatens our freedom and American way of life." "The program of talks and presentations by nationally-known leaders for the cause of democracy will bring to light facts and figures concerning the rising crime rate, juvenile delinquency, drug addiction, the general degradation of morals, the complacent attitude toward patriotism, and the tremendous gains the Communist conspiracy is making in this country..." The United States Naval Air Station is making facilities available for the seminar at the request of the Twin Cities Council for American Ideals... Among the scores of letters concerning Project Action that reached the Pentagon in the following days was one from a newspaper editor. It said in part: "Perhaps someone can clear up for us our lack of understanding as to just how co-sponsorship of such activities fits in with the Navy mission, or the overall military mission, for that matter. It must be admitted that the local Project Action is politically partisan in a very real sense, although the partisanship is not that of the party label type." ... Among numerous other incidents that have been brought to the attention of the Defense Department is the "Fourth Dimensional Warfare Seminar" held in Pittsburgh on April 15. Among those listed as giving "assistance and support" to the program were Lieut. Gen. Ridgely Gaither, Commanding General, Second Army, and Maj. Gen. Ralph C. Cooper, Commanding General of the Twenty-First Army Corps, and their respective staffs... "This sort of thing, if carried far enough among susceptible people, can breed a wave of vigilantism and witch-hunting," one Pentagon official said. "Even Mr. Hoover of the F.B.I., whom nobody would call 'soft on communism,' deplores these self-appointed counter-spies." ... Reinforcing his point, he took from his desk a memorandum from Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, which has been circulated as "guidance" throughout the services. In part, it said: "After the President has taken a position, has established a policy, or after appropriate officials in the Defense Department have established a policy, I expect that no member of the department, either civilian or military, will discuss that policy other than in a way to support it before the public." ... ============================================================================= New York Times, September 8, 1961 McNamara Refuses to Identify Individual Censors in Pentagon But He Gives Senators a List of Security Staff -- Thurmond Voices Criticism of Policy on Anti-Red Speeches WASHINGTON, Sept. 7 -- Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara refused today to give the name of the person in the Pentagon immediately responsible for deleting anti-Communist statements from speeches by an Army general. He did provide a roster of the twelve-man security and review staff, which clears speeches. But he declined to identify particular individuals in the section who had made specific deletions. The demand for this information was made by Senator Strom Thurmond, Democrat of South Carolina, at the close of hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee on his resolution for a full investigation of charges that military officers have been "muzzled." ... It was also learned today that Gen. Edwin A. Walker, deposed last spring from his command in Europe because of the nature of his troop indoctrination program, had pleaded the military equivalent of the Fifth Amendment's guarantee against self-incrimination during the investigation of his case by the Army Inspector General... The entire transcript of the proceedings involving General Walker, which runs to more than 900 pages, is in the process of being declassified by the Department of Defense... Senator Thurmond's inquiry today related to a speech prepared for delivery last March by Gen. Arthur G. Trudeau, Chief of Army Research. In testimony today it was indicated that the excisions had the effect of softening the general's blunt criticism of Soviet policies and tactics. Mr. McNamara said that the justifications for the changes was that negotiations were then going on with the Russians for release of the downed RB-47. It was regarded as impolitic at the time, he explained, to provoke the Russians unnecessarily... ============================================================================= New York Times, November 19, 1961, page 1 KENNEDY ASSERTS FAR-RIGHT GROUPS PROVOKE DISUNITY Attacks Birch Society and 'Minutemen' at a Party Dinner in Los Angeles Spread of Fear Scored President Says Real Threat Comes From Without, Not Within by Tom Wicker LOS ANGELES, Nov. 18-- President Kennedy spoke out tonight against the right-wing John Birch Society and the so-called Minutemen in a speech at a Democratic Party dinner here. The President mentioned neither group by name but left no doubt whom he meant. [in Atlanta, Senator Barry Goldwater, Arizona Republican, attacked the "radicals in the White House." At a news conference, he called President Kennedy the "wagon master" who is "riding on the left wheel all the time."] The President, in his talk at the Hollywood Palladium, also made his first public response to Edward M. Dealey, publisher of the Dallas Morning News. Mr. Dealey attacked the President at a White House luncheon for "riding Caroline's tricycle" instead of being "a man on horseback." Some 'Escape Responsibility' "There have always been those fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat," Mr. Kennedy said. Now, he continued, "men who are unwilling to face up to the danger from without are convinced that the real danger comes from within." "They look suspiciously at their neighbors and their leaders," he declared. "They call for a 'man on horseback' because they do not trust the people. They find treason in our finest churches, in our highest court, and even in the treatment of our water." "They equate the Democratic Party with the welfare state, the welfare state with socialism, and socialism with communism. They object quite rightly to politics' intruding on the military -- but they are anxious for the military to engage in politics." ... Mr. Kennedy chose a region in which the John Birch Society has some of its strongest support to make his third and sharpest attack on what he called tonight "the discordant voices of extremism." In the first two speeches, at Chapel Hill, N. C., and Seattle, he also warned against left-wing and pacifist extremists. His remarks tonight were directed to far-right groups and individuals. The reference to "armed bands of civilian guerillas" appeared to be directed at the Minutemen, individual groups of which are being organized and armed in some parts of the country. The organization is reputed to be particularly strong in California. Los Angeles is regarded as almost the heartland of the Birch Society. Two Republican Representatives from its urban districts, John H. Rousselot and Edgar W. Hiestland, are avowed members. ... ============================================================================= New York Times, November 19, 1961, page 54 RIGHTISTS PICKET KENNEDY SPEECH 3,000 Parade in Los Angeles in Orderly Demonstration LOS ANGELES, Nov. 18-- Raucous picketing took place outside the Hollywood Palladium where President Kennedy spoke. For nearly an hour, 3,000 persons paraded, carrying signs and chanting and singing their protests over a variety of issues. The demonstration, which started rather mildly five hours before the President spoke, was suddenly stepped up by an apparent influx of rightists. Some of the signs carried by men and women wearing red, white, and blue paper hats, read: "Unmuzzle the Military," "Clean Up the State Department," "Veto Tito," "Disarmament is Suicide," and "CommUNism is Our Enemy." The marchers sporadically chanted "Test the Bomb," and, "No Aid to Tito." They sang, among other things, "God Bless America" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." A much smaller contingent of pacifist marchers was elbowed out. Most of these carried signs urging the end of all atomic testing... ============================================================================= New York Times, November 19, 1961, page 54 Eisenhower Travels Aloft With Kennedy SHERMAN, Tex. Nov. 18 (AP) -- President Kennedy and former President Dwight D. Eisenhower rode together to Perrin Air Force Base near here by helicopter today after attending the funeral of Sam Rayburn at near-by Bonham. Senator Carl Hayden, Democrat of Arizona, was also on the helicopter. Mr. Kennedy and General Eisenhower stood together talking by the side of the aircraft for about two minutes. Mr. Kennedy gestured repeatedly with his left hand and appearing to be explaining something to General Eisenhower. General Eisenhower listened intently and shook his head affirmatively several times. They shook hands. Mr. Kennedy then walked briskly to his plane and General Eisenhower got into an Air Force automobile. ============================================================================= New York Times, November 24, 1961, page 1 Eisenhower Says Officers Should Stay Out of Politics Assails Extremists In TV Interview Former President Dwight D. Eisenhower last night urged officers of the armed services to shun partisan politics. Speaking as a General of the Army, he declared it was "bad practice -- very bad" for an officer, even when testifying under oath before a committee of Congress, to express opinions "on political matters or economic matters that are contrary to the President's." ... The former President was blunt in discussing the recent "rise of extremists" in the country. "I don't think the United States needs super-patriots," he declared. "We need patriotism, honestly practiced by all of us, and we don't need these people that are more patriotic than you or anybody else." His definition of extremists embraced those who would "go back to eliminating the income tax from our laws and the rights of people to unionize... [and those] advocating some form of dictatorship." It also included those who "make radical statements [and] attack people of good repute who are proved patriots." At that point, Walter Cronkite of the C.B.S. news staff, who conducted the interview, asked about the "military man's role in our modern political life." He did not cite, but obviously referred to, the case of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker, who stirred up a controversy that led to his "admonishment" for the political nature of the indoctrination of his troops. General Walker lated resigned from the Army. "I believe the Army officer, Navy officer, Air officer," General Eisenhower said, "should not be talking about political matters, particularly domestically, and never in the international field, unless he is asked to do so because of some particular position he might hold." ... The general declared there was hope for disarmament and better East-West relations. As the Russian standard of living improves, the Russian people will begin to understand that there is another way of life, he said... =============================================================================

When asked "What is the Enlightenment?" Inmanuel Kant replied Sadly it does not apparently yet to have appeared to have influenced either the United States of America or certain areas of Yorkshire an easier to read Kant: "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one's understanding without guidance from another. This immaturity is self-imposed when its cause lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage to use it without guidance from another." Ah, ok, "The age of enlightenment" predates the bringing of eastern philosophy to europe by perhaps 60 odd years? So this is a different enlightenment than that which Buddha spoke of? I don't know. There are similarities as both (if they are different) share the view that answers are to be found by understanding self.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm....yum ...the eight fold noble path leading to nibbana...(the ultimate truth) Sheeit, Adam, your students are so fortunate! Of course what they need to bear in mind is the way the pali^ language is structured. No doubt there will be repetition of a misconception that Buddha said that god doesn't exist. He actually had nothing to say on the matter except to say that there is (or exists) 'no-god'. Or another way of understanding a language that forms concepts differently from how english does : The thought or concept of a 'no-god' exists. The life of Antony De'Mello, a christian who practised Ana-apana* and Vipassana* in Poona~ is worth looking at here. Similarly Ghandi, whom many may be surprised to learn, practised this technique. ^the unwritten language the Buddha spoke. Scholars could read sanskrit but the vast majority spoke, and had no writing, Pali. Teachings were passed from teacher to pupil as long recitations usually best memorised as a singsong chant. The best of these chanters could memorise and chant the entire tipitaka.(in time mystical qualities were imagined to be attached to these chants) ~(where another controversial teacher Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh taught Zen based techniques) *(the fundamental meditation techniques that Buddha taught as a way of exploring truth)Ana apana : awareness of the in and out breathing, Vipassana : wisdom through self knowledge, the equanimous study of reality or truth as it is. Thes are techniques that Muslim, Atheist, Christian, Jew..etc all may benefit from.

There is a drift off topic here perhaps but as its led by the moderators I'll follow. There was a man who was born into a very powerful family. Traditionally, the highest aspiration for someone of the upper classes was to either become a good powerful warrior leader or to become a revered and followed spiritual elder. One other alternative was regarded, apart from a failure in the above, as being a 'snake' or perhaps 'super criminal'. His father wanted him to take over the family business so he wanted the first of these for him. In spite of a youth nurtured for this purpose, he came through circumstances to understand that the life of those he was expected to lead differed so much from that he was groomed for that when he was old enough to choose for himself, Siddharta 'ran away from home'. He roamed across the north of India studying under many teachers, learning the highest known wisdoms. The bible, or scripture, that had been passed down through the ages talked of a tantalising freedom, or goal, worthy of striving for. He found that the highest teaching of his age left one short of this goal, so he left these teachings behind and continued to investigate on his own. Indulgence and denial tended to be the two paths taught and he exhausted these until he suddenly had an insight that came to be called 'the middle path' of moderation, essential were an appreciation of morality, awareness and wisdom born of experience. He developed and refined a meditation technique that is very simple amnd scientific. Many people since then have benefitted. The nature of these things is that RELIGIONS grow up around these important teachings, and ritual and misinterpretation abound. Today Buddhism is regarded as a religion. Buddhas meditation technique is NOT a religion. Following his moral code while practicing this technique benefits the practitioner. That's all. 500 years later his ambassadors that set out walking from northern India had reached the outskirts of what has become known as Europe. Christ, as is correctly noted by atheist and christian alike, was a revolutionary leader of men. He advocated a life style that is beneficial for all. The freedom that goes hand in hand with believing in god is one that the christian can use as a good guide in human relations. One important circumstance that people often have found themselves in is for example in a line of people herded, children and old, towards gas chambers and other means of human disposal, usually herded there by other people carrying machine guns. It is natural here for a human to be overcome with despair, and terror. The little ones, and the week ones here need strong guidance in order to make their journey through this horror as bearable as possible. The courage and clarity that one can attain by following these teachers of old can help the adult to be with these children, and in cases it has happened that the courage and love shines sufficiently as a beacon to affect some of the persecutors, thus when other weapons are not available, fractures in the ranks of the persecutors can be effected. It is important in discussing Christ to recognise the difference between religion and truth. Knowledge without action cannot become wisdom. God proves himself through belief not words, which is another reason that for a believer and a non believer talking about god is like shouting across an unbridgeable gulf. God is not a pixie or santa claus, he is an experience available to all who CHOOSE to avail theirselves of him. It gets mixed up by people trying to turn a material world into a spiritual reality. Futile, hence the endless discussions that lead nowhere.

It has been repeatedly stated that Kennedys death and the work of Johnsson for whatever reason was the basis for the Civil Rights act passed a couple of years after Kennedys death. I don't think the evidence bears this out. Kennedy had committed himself to this very goal. He had the declared that the time for waiting was over. The coming elections were going to have to deal with this. A win for Kennedy would inextricably be a win for civil rights... Kennedy speech to the nation on Civil Rights, June 11 1963: "One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free. We preach freedom around the world, and we mean it, and we cherish our freedom here at home, but are we to say to the world, and much more importantly, to each other that this is the land of the free except for the Negroes; that we have no second-class citizens except Negroes; that we have no class or caste system, no ghettoes, no master race except with respect to Negroes? Now the time has come for this Nation to fulfill its promise.The events in Birmingham and elsewhere have so increased the cries for equality that no city or State or legislative body can prudently choose to ignore them. The fires of frustration and discord are burning in every city, North and South, where legal remedies are not at hand. Redress is sought in the streets, in demonstrations, parades, and protests which create tensions and threaten violence and threaten lives. We face, therefore, a moral crisis as a country and a people. It cannot be met by repressive police action. It cannot be left to increased demonstrations in the streets. It cannot be quieted by token moves or talk. It is a time to act in the Congress, in your State and local legislative body and, above all, in all of our daily lives. It is not enough to pin the blame on others, to say this a problem of one section of the country or another, or deplore the facts that we face. A great change is at hand, and our task, our obligation, is to make that revolution, that change, peaceful and constructive for all. Those who do nothing are inviting shame, as well as violence. Those who act boldly are recognizing right, as well as reality. Next week I shall ask the Congress of the United States to act...." (Three hours later Medgar Evers was assassinated by a KKK sniper as he was returning home from having listened to this speech, a friend of Medgar who had been with him that evening said that before going home Medgar had seemed unusually quiet and quite disturbed. Medgar had at an earlier event declared a glad willingness to die for his cause.) Martin Luther King two and a half months later: I have a dream 28 August 1963, at the Lincoln Memorial, Washington D.C. "I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation. Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity. But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition. In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. And so, we've come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children..." About two and a half months later Kennedy was dead.

This is Harry's namebase chart. It's surprisingly limited. It is also known he reported not only to the FBI as informant, he was also intimate with Fritz of the DPD and reported to his boss in Washington who was intimately directly connected to Helms and Dulles. In fact any information on Harry Holmes is severely limited, for example there seems to be no photo's of him. He is known to have been in the DPD on the afternoon of the assassination, he is known to have been one of the last people to speak with Oswald, and he is known to have wandered around picking up things in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination. If a photo was found of him, it could make a check with known unknowns in the large set of photos available possible. It is also interesting that there is an FBI report of an informant regarding Ruby inviting the informant to come to the corner of the post office to 'look at the fireworks'. Presumably, this would have referred to the area below Harry's office where Harry observed the motorcade from.

I believe that within this information are the leads that will lead to a direct connection. Under cover of a Cuban issue, I suggest that these wholly USA issue driven individuals murdered Kennedy. Various quotes and posts from various sources: I believe the head of the Dallas area KKK was the Reverend Roy E. Davis. Davis was the editor of The Fiery Cross. __________________________________ From http://www.cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0062e.html Q: Was Dixon's name mentioned at anytime, the one in Dallas of the K.K.K. A: The only man in Dallas that he mentioned that was a good patriot down in Texas, and engineering a lot of activity there was a Mr. Davis a reverend Dr. Davis, a preacher, head of the Klu Klux Klan. He was a man who didn't worry about human life, that he worried about his nation now. I know of Davis for several years. This Milteer now says that he doesn't want too much talk about Kennedy anymore, now he is alledgeling his war against the Jews, and their associates. But the Klu Klux Klan and the Officials which were Mims and Bolings didn't seem too please with the assassination of the President. Their main purpose was to eliminate Martin Luther King and some of the negro leaders. But I don't know, they didn't give him any assurance of anything, except that they would go along with him with his political party, and that they would put out the pamphlets, when they were properly written and given to them. But they didn't indicate in anyway that they had known or assisted in the assassination of the President. But Milteer didn't give them too much chance to talk and discuss, he just issued orders, he carried on the conversation on what had been done, and what had to be done. And of course, these men from Denmark and Orangeburg seemed more enthused to go along with him on the assassination and that they appreciated the assassination of the President than Mims and Boling. ----------------------------- The Dallas PD first suspected that Davis was the publisher of the Wanted For Treason posters but an unnamed Dallas PD officer said it wasn't Davis because "he knew Davis and he didn't do it." Going back to the list of GI Forum founders, you might also recognise the name Felix Botello. His name was on a membership list of a Minuteman-like paramilitary group with connections to Edwin Walker. Botello was also a FBI informant. I believe that this information about the meeting at the Carousel Club originally came from Butler. It is possible that it was Butler who provided Dorothy Kilgallen with the information about the Jesse Curry's tapes. Butler also provided information to W. Penn Jones Jr. According to Jones, Butler told him that 50% of the Dallas Police Department were also members of the Ku Klux Klan. By airtel 1-13-64, Dallas Office reported that on 1-4-64 William James Lowery, Jr. a former security informant of the Dallas Office, reported that he had been contacted by Earl Lively, Jr., of Dallas, Texas. Lowery stated Lively is reported writing an anticommunist book which will stress the Fair Play for Cuba Committee connections of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lively showed Lowery a letter from Herbert Philbrick, former Communist Party member who has testified on behalf of the Government concerning communist activities. According to Lively, Philbrick plans to be in Dallas soon and desires to meet Lowery. Lively further informed Lowery that he desired Lowery’s assistance in writing his book. He stated that Dr. Robert Morris, former counsel to the Senate Internal Security Committee under Senator McCarthy, was assisting him and Lt. George Butler of the Dallas Police Department was also assisting him. Lively added that Lt. George Butler of the Dallas PD was going to try to get any information he could that the FBI turned over to the Dallas Police Department in connection with the Lee Harvey Oswald case. It might be interesting to note, that in August of 1941, Butler received a 30 day suspension for punching a black youth while in custody _____________________________________________ Banister's positions attracted the backing of the chairman of the Citizens' Council of Gentilly, Louis Pennington Davis, Jr. (NOTP; March 19, 1961; s 1, p 21) The Gentilly Council was a subunit of the larger Citizens' Council of Greater New Orleans (referred to as GNOCC). Davis had been involved since the inception of GNOCC in 1956 (NOTP; January 27, 1956; p 13) Leander Perez was a member of the board. Other members of the Gentilly section were Robert L. Hickerson and George L. Singelmann, usually identified as an assistant to Perez (NOTP; March 4, 1956; p 28). Perez himself spoke at an early meeting of the Gentilly Council in 1956. His topic was the "menace" of the Supreme Court. (NOTP; March 10, 1956; p 2) Davis made his position on the NAACP clear: "a small group of Russian Jews with known Communist ties is procuring the vast amounts of money being 'poured into NAACP activities.'" (NOTP; August 5, 1956; p 2) In 1961, Davis and Singelmann held forth on CORE: No less than 13 members of its national advisory board belong to numerous organizations that have been cited for their Communist front activities. The avowed purpose of this organization is to create incidents and excite people to violence. If their objective is successful, the South and the nation will be a seething mass of racial strife and violence. (NOTP; June 3, 1961; S 3, p 20) During the Ole Miss crisis in 1962, Davis sent the following telegram to General Edwin Walker: "You called for ten thousand volunteers nationwide for Mississippi's fight against Federal tyranny. Will pledge ten thousand from Louisiana alone under your command." (NOTP; September 28, 1962; S 3, p 2) Davis died September 15, 1971, at the age of 58. (NOTP; September 17, 1971; s 1, p 20) Banister's next public connection with Perez came with his participation as a speaker in a Fourth of July Rally in 1961 at which Perez was presented a 'patriotism award.' The rally was organized by Delphine Roberts acting on behalf of something called the National Confederation for Conservative Government. Others participating included Festus Brown, of the American Legion's Un-American Activities Committee, and Emile A. Wagner, school board member. Banister and Perez were photographed along with State Supreme Court Justice Walter B. Hamlin and city Judge Oliver P. Schulingkamp. (NOTP; July 2, 1961; s 1, p 14; July 5, 1961; s 1, p 3; unfortunately the photo does not come at all) In May of 1963, "200 persons from throughout" Louisiana met in Baton Rouge to establish the Louisiana Commitee for Free Electors. State Senator Harold Montgomery of Doyline was elected chairman. Two representatives from each Congressional District were chosen. Guy Banister was selected to represent the First District. (NOTP; May 12, 1963; s 1, p 11) Pages 322 to 327 of Glen Jeansonne's book, "Leander Perez" (Baton Rouge: LSU Press, 1977) describe the interest of Perez in the Free Elector Campaign. Note the mention of Perez's control of the First District on page 323. Banister probably couldn't have been chosen to represent that district without at least the tacit approval of Perez. Bannister applied for a job with the SSC in Mississippi, I have no record of him getting the job but given his credentials and interests I'd say it's likely. A group of men were stopped on their way to mississippi with guns, with them was a list of people with interesting links. Offhand I can't find it but it is on the forum. I have read, and unfortunately at the time didn't consider its significance, but I am prepared to restate it as I remember with confidence that the document exists. : at a KKK rally following the assassination a klan leader announced to the audience "We don't have to worry about Kennedy any more, one of the good ole' boys in Dallas has taken care of that.". Another individual I would like to find out more about is someone mentioned only by Richard Craig to my knowledge. He described this individual as being a stall holder in the lobby of the DPD. Given the KKK-DPD connection it is interesting as Craig describes him as a rabid bigot. Everyone knew him and came in touch with him daily, it would be interesting to find what his story is. Similarly the Hosty, Harry, DPD, Walther, Jimmy, Kay, Olsen group of people and their connections.

John, I think you have missed the point with most of what you have said above. Sex is for procreation and, fortunately for us, also happens to be pleasurable. Part of the reason for homosexuality being regarded as sinful by Christians, therefore, is the inabilility (note: not the prevention) of the action being for the purposes God intended it. This, again, is part of the reason why marriage is sacrosanct for Christians and casual sex so damaging. Birth control within marriage is different from casual sex in that, according to the Bible, the purpose of this relationship is procreation, whereas the latter is purely for pleasure. Birth control simply gives married couples more control over when to conceive. It cannot really be compared with birth control outside marriage. Doug What does the Bible tell us about married couples in the 21st century who choose not to have children? I guess following your logic they are not allowed to enjoy sex either? This appears to me not so much a moral position as a recruitment drive. perhaps a pondering of this might help finding answers. Instructions on 'right thinking' and 'right living' in the bible were presented to humanity at different stages throughout evolution. When we are born and as yet have not lost our senses we live in a union with our surroundings in the moment. A time comes when 'ego' or awareness of separation comes, as we now must leave the 'garden of eden' we learn new rules to protect ourselves and to promote healthy relations with other entities, our parents make strict rules that are clear and can perhaps be seen as 'gross' in the sense that we are not necessarily asked to understand them but to obey for our own protection with regards to things we don't understand, for example 'don't ever go across the road without holding my hand!' ;while beginning with more subtle instructions such as 'look, that way first (while explaining what left is)...etc etc. In time our ultimate teacher, who no longer is our parents, will tell us 'Love one another', and offer guides to right living such as 'let he who has not sinned cast the first stone', as we come to the point of accepting our freedom, he helps us by forgiveness. The bible is a lesson in evolution, of cause and effect. These good lessons can be understood and stated as well by atheists. If a government chooses to refer to the bible in forming legislation it must always consider context, otherwise it becomes dogmatic and anti god.

I think one reason I've found this a bit puzzling is because I would number the building of a pair that is closest to me 'the first' building and here would assume that he meant what he saw in the cnn broadcast? A plane did strike the first building, as far as I understand it was the second plane that did that?

I'd like to note here too in a brief summary the early history of these countries. I might be wrong or skewed in some detail but the overall view is I believe correct? As I'm making a point re social evolution, please allow a little bit of liberal interpretation. There was a time that these people could have been regarded as a super power. In the dim interface between legend, epic, and recorded history, the vikings were fiercely war like. The berserk were their storm troopers on their blitzkrieg excursions. They got rid of the roman empire, They 'discovered' and named Russia, naming it after the people they found their, the Rus. They traded with Baghdad. They settled in the area that spawned the Norman and the conquest of Britain. Then to help the anti normans they sent warriors to drive their ancestral brothers down as far as Oxford I believe and then got bored and went home, leaving the Normans to take over. They sacked and burned a fledgeling Paris on a number of occasions, they founded the earliest democracy in Iceland, and of course they discovered America. Wars and alliances continued, other nations had their day in the sun. Many millions of scandinavians settled in America and form a large part of its population today. At some point, a renunciation of violence started. For about 200 years now Sweden has not had a war. As a young nation America has some way to go before reaching maturity. Its current boisterousness is made more frightening by the fact that the longsword is replaced by atomic bombs. Still, barring total annihalation, it is possible to concieve of a civilised and democratic USA. It's happened before.

Just to bring things up to date, a note from Gary: John, The Towner camera is owned by the former Tina Towner and it is on exhibit at The Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. She used it for many years, so there's no way to know if the camera operates now the way it did that day in 1963. Gary Mack

I thought I might try some more creative means of eliciting a response re the Civil Rights issue. Though I suppose no response is a response. It seems it is not difficult for a researcher to believe that contrary to the absense of any evidence believe that because certain members of the mob had a grudge that they would kill Kennedy. The existence of confrontation between violent individuals and the Kennedy government around the issue of intergration is clear and shows an escalation over the period of Kennedys government. That this might culminate in an assassination, particularly in Dallas, seems to me less farfetched than a mob or castro assassination. Even the fact that the entire investigation (apart from very early on) has steered away from any consideration of the civil rights issues, so that today no one seems to know much of anything about it is an indication of this. So , here goes. #1. The beg. (to the strains of a solitary violin) "I beseech Thee o Researchers of whom i as a humble footnote, a doodle, a scribble, in the seldom read margins of the dust covers of reality, i beg Thee all, or any, to cast Thy glance fleetingly into my dark, dusty corner where i huddle patiently awaiting morsels from Thy table of plenty, averting my eyes from the blinding light of Thy reason, hoping for just a scrap of the road map to truth that Thy community so generously affords those far more worthy than i. Just a scrap, that no-one wants, so that i may ponder upon it and perchance, one day devine its meaning, and, Thy willing, one day, be permitted to look over Thy mighty shoulders as Thou turnest the pages of this wondrous book." (tomorrow : #2. The glossy ad, promising fame, fortune, and oodles and oodles of sensual titillation.)

It has just occured to me that you may have used the word 'aesthetics' for a reason so I looked up its definition. aes·thet·ics or es·thet·ics (ĕs-thĕt'ĭks) n. (used with a sing. verb) The branch of philosophy that deals with the nature and expression of beauty, as in the fine arts. In Kantian philosophy, the branch of metaphysics concerned with the laws of perception. (used with a sing. verb) The study of the psychological responses to beauty and artistic experiences. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) A conception of what is artistically valid or beautiful: minimalist aesthetics. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) An artistically beautiful or pleasing appearance: “They're looking for quality construction, not aesthetics” (Ron Schram). So maybe it's not just 'what is art' that you mean, but what is 'good' art? And by that perhaps what is beautiful art? My thoughts are that good and beautiful are not necessarily the same. If something achieves what it sets out to do in a effective clear way then that is 'good', something nauseating may be 'good'. This allows for calling disturbing and unpleasant works of art good. That doesn't mean I'll 'like' it. I like the music of the spheres. I like the idea of resonance. In Florence there is a church where on a regular basis (regular enough for a name for the affliction to exist in medical literature) an unsuspecting person will enter and as the eyes take in the glory of the art they faint. Art that can do that would be on the extreme range of what could be called aesthetic art. I also believe in the effect of the golden rectangle and harmony of proportion. I think things have an ability to set up sympathetic vibrations within the observer so that on a mind body level all humans respond more or less. I think some forms of 'art' are seductive to some in ways that have little to do with the 'art' but lots to do with individual psychology. I haven't thought much about it but perhaps a standard roschach image?Appears perhaps to be art, but is just a blob used for psychanalysis. Some great works of art also sometimes seem to be (once one knows HOW the artist created it) nothing more than intricate or clever colouring in efforts. In other words a drawing created with mirrors and lenses filled in by a skilled paint mixer.Here other factors like composition and balance would come in. Anyway , just some of my thoughts on the matter.

John, I referred you to a Discovery Channel program, not a History Channel show. Do you get Discovery? The camera original Towner, Hughes and Dorman films appear in Death In Dealey Plaza, one of three programs in their Unsolved History series. The Discovery Channel shows it all over the world and will broadcast it for several more years. If you'd rather not wait until the next airing, you can order the dvd from the Discovery Channel store: http://tinyurl.com/8nnzp. Gary Mack Ahh, that's wonderful, thank you Gary. (forum is good) I'll order one. No discovery here either. Well, what I mean is not in my house anyway. I'll see if someone else around here does. Come to think of it I might be able to talk the local library into getting a copy. thanks again. Jack : Yes, I had one problem with the study...but not worth debating. The film lasts several seconds. Each spectator is pictured only AT THE TIME THE CAMERA IS POINTED THAT WAY. The montage does not show what happened to any particular person during the OTHER SECONDS...so it is NOT A TRUE MONTAGE of the crowd but a series of split second stills. By the end of the montage, the people at the beginning would be in entirely different locations. But it would seem to offer A GOOD COUNT ON THE NUMBER OF SPECTATORS, since it is doubtful that any were photographed in more than one location. To be a true montage, all images would have to be at the same instant. But it is good for what it is. Jack Yes, I agree. One idea I have (might get around to it) is to with the montage (much better word than panorama) as background bring each frame forward in turn and snapshotting each ( I think it was 150 odd frames) and then stringing the snaps together into a movie. So the frames travel across the screen as the limo travelled across the sweep at the time. One thing that I like about these extended montages is kind of getting a feel for what it was like being there, something that a static movie screen can't capture in the same way. (A way of simulating this is to open the full from link above and zooming it to full screen and then scrolling across from right to left.) I wonder who owns the camera today, and whether an exact frame rate could be got?

Just wanted to say that the Forum seems to be humming along quite nicely at the moment. I dont think I've had any probs for a while now. The new post features are nice. Ad probs solved. Congratulations. (touch wood)

Is this person from dca film known. He wore a light coloured tie like Ruby(a light tie was prob less common?) did at times and a similar hat.

The range of graysacale and the pixelation makes a true sharpening difficult. It sems to me that the known GWB face in this instance is more boyish?

A note from Gary, John wrote: I am sure Jack noticed problems, however I think he was referring to the overall effort. Unfortunately the images I use are only those that are available to me. The important thing here is the techniques. I believe there is a lot of information to be had from the various photos and films as yet untapped. The denying of quality data to researchers is to my mind inexcusible. Contrary to copyright considerations it should be regarded as public property. The refusal to use the internet with its fast delivery that makes it possible to download and distribute digitised copies is indefensible (IMO). However, it is how it is. What I hope to show more than anything with this is some methods I think are useful, whether it is witha poor quality set of data or not is less important. Should good quality stuff become available, I would repeat it on that. Or someone who might be inspired to develop these skills themselves can do it just as easily. Gary : No one has "denied" you quality data, John. Groden's poor quality copy of the Tina Towner film - initially made without her knowledge or permission - is his fault, not hers. She has made her film available to several tv and video productions over the years, and I listed just one of the sources in my note to you. Anyone is free to record or purchase those broadcasts and use the images for their personal study. Gary Mack Thank you, Gary. I had no idea about that. Could you zip me a copy please? Or point me to a source where I could down load or arrange for one to be sent to me? I don't get History Channel here and find that vhs and all the transfer issues to digital format degrades quality to where I don't know if it's worth it. But , thank you, this is the sort of information one needs. (I feel a slight need here to re-emphasise as well that this topic and many others I do around digital imaging is about techniques first, so if anyone is inspired through it and does have quality material, it's possible that important contributions may be made.)

Cram was singularly well situated to pass such a judgement. Freshly retired after a quarter century at the Agency, Cram was drafted by Kalaris and Shackley to do a review of the Agency's counter-intelligence history, and was eventually granted access to all the super-classified files needed to do the job. What was originally supposed would be about a one year effort lasted six years, and Cram generated a twelve volume analysis of Angleton's work, each volume between 300 and 400 pages in length. If a single person inside CIA knew fact from fiction, truth from trash, it was Cram. Though the twelve volumes have yet to be made available to anyone in the general public, to my knowledge, the monograph you cite no doubt reflects the knowledge Cram obtained in the process. His view should be taken more seriously than those of just about everyone else in the Agency. It doesn't require a stack of books to understand that Angleton was a prolific propagator of deceptive orchids. It makes it very hard to unravel his deceit. Such a stack may certainly help. There are aspects of his life that indicates he was also capable of telling the truth. The trick lies in understanding how he thinks. As such a study of Angleton can be very important in this investigation. Personally I wish more attention would be spent in discussing him and his life.

hi Tim, yes I see what you mean. What I meant was something like this : God is happy about joyful worship. A happy loving mind is open and ready for a lot of cleansing. Misery and pain is the other side of the coin and often just below the surface. To let down the defenses in genuine awe and joy at gods power allows him to do good work, worshipping him helps him to help us. Of course he is happy for this opportunity, he loves us. However, he doesn't have an ego like we humans all do. John S : "I believe the subject of taxation is a moral issue. Taxation is the main tool that a government can use to redistribute wealth. That raises issues of what our views should be towards those that are less fortunate than ourselves. Of course, we are free to give to charity. However, history shows us this is a very ineffective way to redistribute wealth. The rich are notoriously mean when it comes to giving to charity and research shows that they give far less in percentage terms than those with middle and low incomes. Therefore, if we believe in redistribution, our government has to do it for us." I agree that the subject of taxation is a moral issue, that doesn't necessarily make it a spiritual issue. Atheists are equally capable of making good and bad moral descicions around topics such as taxation. What I'm saying is that while morality can with difficulty, in the world we live in, be discussed without discussing religion, it is important to note that religion is not necessarily something that god is into. So to equate god with tax through a discussion of religion can be flawed. Thats all. At the same time sometimes believers ARE organised together in a church that does reflect the body of god. OK, Bush states he believes in christ. I think his performance indicates an opportunism, correctly noted by John and other atheists. I am really worried for him by claiming some sort of hotline to god. If I was American (and not just for that reason) I wouldn't vote for him. But I would try to pray for him.