Robert Howard

I think that when Dorothy said the case should not close, she meant that the investigation should proceed, she did not mean that images of Lee Harvey Oswald should overwhelm the effort to expose the truth. Are you not observing that you are being ignored because you contribute nothing but your one note hatred of Jim Garrison? No-one on this forum is trying to cover up the assassination. We are ALL here to advance and /or discover the truth. Even when we disagree. Why you are here is the mystry. (Aside from insulting the other members and calling them names...and letting us know on every post that "Garrison was a fraud"). Bye Bye Mat-Lynne. Follow-Up Question: What does character assassination, slur's and opines directed towards people who "investigated, alleged to have investigated, or are integral parts of JFK assassination lore, have to do with research into the Kennedy assassination? Answer: Absolutely nothing. Absolutely the last comment I have on this very, very tiresome and worn out sideshow of the last two months. "Many member's of this forum were born during the day, but none of us were born yesterday."

I do believe in one of those "conspiracy comments by Jack Ruby" when reporters were talking to him as he was being whisked to and fro, he said something to the effect of (referring to the assassination) "a massive conspiracy, you wouldn't believe." If you take those comments literally, then a 'massive conspiracy,' ala either 1. CIA 2. Army Intelligence 3. FBI 4. Secret Service 5. Variations of the above, as part of one big black op, don't seem so "out of the question." FWIW

I suppose the topic title and description say's it all, but I am trying to learn about the quote attributed to Ferrie. William Turner who I believe is invaluable as a member of this Forum, in Rearview Mirror (which I have, and think is a extremely insightful book) refers to the interview he did with Robert Depugh national leader of the notorious "Minutemen," in that segment of the book he refers to "John Morris" and then writes "DePugh knew that in 1962 one of his "patriots" named John Morris cooked up a plot to assassinate Senator J. William Fulbright because he wasn't "voting American" (he opposed the Vietnam War). When DePugh got wind of it, after money had actually changed hands, he squelched it, he said, in order to head off a massive federal probe of his organization. In researching the article, I picked up information that a Minutemen cell in Dallas threatened to "snuff" Stanley Marcus of the upscale NiemanMarcus department store chain because he was Jewish and liberal (I called Marcus to inform him of the danger)." My question is who quoted Ferrie as saying "Oh sure, we can easily get Fulbright the same we got S. when he was overseas--and nobody will ever suspect. They'll think it was a natural death." I think, and this is just my opinion, that the quote is referring to Adlai Stevenson, (D-IL) ran unsucessfully against Eisenhower 1952 and again in 1956) who died of natural causes in England in 1965. I wanted to sort this out, and see if there is anything to this. The reason I ask, is that recently I read somewhere (On the internet, MAYBE on the Forum) in which an individual referred to Adlai as being, (paraphrasing) responsible for the mess in Cuba, (comments circa 1963?) again I am sorry I do not remember where I saw this. Anyway, I am just trying to verify if it was ever proven that Ferrie said this. If he did say this, does anybody think there "may have been foul play with regards to Adlai Stevenson's death?" He was a part of the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and I am sure he wasn't admired by all those extremist right-wing hate groups, back then.

Thank You to everybody who has contributed information to help me locate, Shirley Martin. I am on it.

He's a Doctor - he knows that the jawbone has been broken. The man is unconscious. SA Vince Drain http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/the_d...need/Drain.html ... DeBrueys is sent up from Dallas, but doesn't seem to be the same as the 'fellow' Drain speaks of above in the Parkland incident. But Drain also doesn't seem to realize that the 'fellow' is a fellow FBI agent? Torbitt Strong stuff. Debrueys, as an FBI Agent, is stationed in New Orleans. He has no reason for being in Dallas, and it is not possible for him to be there at this time, unless he arrived earlier in the day - which would really be suspicious. Gary Mack Gary Mack informed me that this was Dallas field agent Doyle Williams. Wiliiams wrote an official report of the incident which can be found at NARA, and was interviewed in JFK: The Torch Is Passed. I couldn't find the report - unless it is the one on Agent Hosty? That was the only report on file for 11/22. Out of 12 hits at NARA for Doyle Williams - none are classified, and all are reports by Doyle [as opposed to addressed to Doyle]. Notes from Shackelford on Hosty's book, Assignment: Oswald. http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/1book.html ...'Decked' sounds like Crenshaw's account. Maybe that's the reason Doyle only wrote a single report that day. As opposed to being close to Kennedy, Hosty places him by where LBJ is located. Shackelford again...Databitz 3 http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/3data.html Weberman Nodule #17: Fetzer's Murder in Dealey Plaza, Catfeet press, Chicago, 2000, p70: There has to be more information on this incident, I am vaguely familiar with it. Namebase.org DeBrueys, Warren http://www.namebase.org/cgi-bin/nb01?_DE%20BRUEYS_WARREN_C couldn't find Doyle Williams on namebase.org unless discrepancy of some kind or went by another first name and Doyle is/was middle name? maryferrell.org - Doyle Williams http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do maryferrell.org - Warren DeBrueys http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do maryferrell.org - Operation Seal http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...ancedResults.do

Jim, Do you have the book "The Ultra Americans" by Thomas Parrish/Stein & Day/1986? It contains a significant (actually four pages of information) about a John Hurt from "Wytheville, VA." It is undoubtedly the man. I found the book today and bought it at a bookstore here in Dallas, I have always been fascinated about the "Raleigh Call and Lee Harvey Oswald" as well. Let me know, I will post the pertinent sections on this thread, if you wish. Just respond to this post, if you don't already have the book.

Is this true? If so, it makes me wonder if he was a "MK-ULTRA" casualty Thanks for the post

Scattershooting while wondering what happened to Lou Staples. I chanced upon this as I was cleaning my sock drawer. circa 1974 BEGIN "Dan Rather's Location" On the Lou Staples Talk Show on KRLD Radio October 24, 1974, in which Rather was plugging his new book, "The Palace Guard," a male voice asked Rather: "At the time of President Kennedy's assassination did you office on Elm Street in Dallas, and if so, in what capacity were you employed and your activities the day of the assassination?" Rather answered: "No---uh at the time of President Kennedy's assassination---uh--I was the CBS News Bureau Chief in New Orleans, Louisiana. Uh---I was in Dallas---uh---to coordinate our coverage. Uh---my location at the time of the assassination was---uh just past the overpass--uh---past the Textbook Depository. I was waiting for what is known in the business as a film and audio tape drop, that is someone in the motorcade was going to drop me some material at that location. Uh---previous to that---uh in 1962 I had, CBS News had an office in Dallas. It was an office I had opened and I did have an office for a period of about nine months--uh--on Elm Street. Uh----our location was there basically because it was near KRLD our locally ---a local affiliate station." Staples: "Alrighty, let's continue....." In view of the lying that we now know Rather did concerning his interpretation of the Abraham Zapruder film, it is now important to know if Rather did pick up the film. From whom did he get the film, what did the film show, and when if ever was the film shown to the public. Rather was in Dallas in 1962, transferred to New Orleans, then in Dallas stationed just beyond the killing area waiting for a film drop! And shortly after the killing Rather is given an unusual promotion to be the White House Reporter for CBS News END

In 1967, Calvin Trillin wrote an article on the early critics. In his article, he wrote: "Mrs. Martin, who now lives in Owasso, a small town outside of Tulsa,..." He also wrote: "she and her husband have adopted an American Indian boy,..." According to Mary Ferrell's database, her name was, Mrs. Mark E. Martin You might try looking there. Steve Thomas Hey thanks Steve! That is very kind of you. I will get steppin.

Robert, I think Shirley Martin is a major character in the pulp paperback book The Scavangers and Critics of the Warren Report by Lawrence Schiller - I'm probabaly spelling his name wrong, but like Posner, he's not so much a hired-gun writer as a journalsitic whore - who has also done jobs on Lenny Bruce, O.J. and other hot topics. Among the scavangers and critics is the Housewives Underground, which gives profiles of Shirley Martin, Sylvia Meagher, Mae Brussell, Mary Ferrell, et. al. His lame attempts to discredit them actually makes them look like real American heroes. Syliva was in New York, Mae on the West Coast. j Don't know if she is dead or alive. BK Thank's Bill, yeah I read some of Schiller's "stuff" in that book on the Net. I would tell you what I thought about it but I wouldn't want anyone to think I had Tourette's Syndrome.

I will go out on a limb here and opine that all ye who enter here should make certain they have read the Wheaton Thread. Gee, if Wheaton is credible, and I think his story is, to put it mildly, compelling, then it kinda makes sense, it makes the "looney accusation" that 9-11 was "allowed to happen" in order to make "terrorism" the new "Communism." (Note: 9-11 is and alway's will be the most evil type of act imaginable, the point that is being made is there were "war games" being conducted as the hijackers were doing the deed - tip of the iceberg) The "War on Terrorism" is in (2001-05), what McCarthyism was in (1954-1958) purely from an American slant, of course. I'll go a little further and suggest to anyone that they read "October Surprise" by Gary Sick or "Firewall" Lawrence Walsh's Book on the Iran-Contra Conspiracy & Cover-up, or Barry & The Boyz - Daniel Hunsicker or "Compromised: Clinton, Bush & the CIA." You see, one can say that Wheaton's assertions are "revelatory" but if you can think for yourself and don't need an expert on television to tell you "what to make of the news" that's being reported that particular day. Then it could be said that it all fits, that's why practically everything thats happened since Jan 20, 2001 (on an event type level 9-11, WMD's/Iraq, Katrina/Scandal in N.O.), Abu-Gharaib/torture, Sweeping INSLAW under the rug, shall I go on....) has the signature of utter contempt for the American people. Would a bunch of CIA crooks, lose any sleep at night about "pertinent issues facing American's" if they had hijacked the Democratic process to begin with? From someone who has read a lot of history, take it from me. When the intellectuals start getting rounded up, don't expect anyone at CNN to "make much ado" about it, except Anderson Cooper. End Note: Back in the 1960's around the time of the famous Esquire Kennedy Cover of 1962, a journalist asked George H. W. Bush about his political aspirations for a political dynasty ala the Kennedy's. Bush responded "Wait till you see those Bush boy's!"

In the early day's of the JFK saga, after the release of the Warren Report was met with skepticism, most individuals who are familiar with the history of those who were not buying the Warren Reports assertions, are familiar with names like Bertrand Russell, Mark Lane, Sylvia Meagher, William Turner - Ramparts, Harold Weisberg, and Penn Jones Jr. We all are indebted to them in one way or the other. However, there was a woman in Oklahoma named Shirley Martin whom until recently, I was not familiar with. But I am sure I would like, she would take her kids and come to Dallas to augment the work of what was known as The Housewife Investigator's or something like that; the others I am not too familiar with I know one was in New York and one on the West Coast (Sylvia Meagher?). Anyway, is Shirley Martin still "with us," I am not privy to her age. If she is still around does anyone know how to reach her or in the event of her passing, next of kin?

In the good old day's Wheaton could pop-up on television (somewhere) and make his allegations public, but I am sure if he tried to go that route he would find himself "persona non grata." Maybe he could talk to Fitzgerald, and just add it to the list. But what am I saying, there were no good old day's.

I GOT TEN TO ONE THEY DON'T PUT OUT 12 ISSUES. GUYS LIKE THESE COME AND GO. REMINDS ME OF THE MEN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL, BOB VERN, WIM ET AL, CARNIVAL HAWKERS. GIVEM' YOUR MONEY ON A BUNCH OF GLOSSY PROMISES. FOR WHAT THEY'RE PAYING TO PUT OUT ONE GLOSSY THEY COULD PRINT A HUNDRED THOUSAND B&W BASIC NEWSPRINT TABLOID AND GAVE THEM OUT FREE TO SCHOOL KIDS AND CONGRESSMEN. THAT GARY AG HAS BEEN 'HIRED' BY THESE GUYS AND THEY'RE GOING TO SOLVE THE CASE FROM KANSAS CITY STRETCHES CREDULITY. AS A BOARD MEMBER OF COPA GARY HAS BEEN A BIG SUPPORTER FOR THE ORGANIZED EFFORTS WE'VE TRIED TO DO IN THE PAST, AND IS A GOOD DEBATER AND FRONT MAN, BUT THIS LOOKS LIKE A HAIRBRAINED SCHEME. WITH THE DEMISE OF THE THIRD/FOURTH DECADE, PROBE AND OTHER SIMILAR PUBLICATIONS, IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE AN OUTLET FOR SERIOUS RESEARCH, BUT I DON'T THINK A CONSPIRACY-LIFE IS THE WAY TO GO. ANY TAKERS? BK NOT ME DADDIO, As (paraphrasing) Dean Andrews once said (They) Got the right TaTa, But the Wrong Ho Ho.

The funny thing is, they think they fool history in the process. Tim, Not sure where the Chevmeister lives these day's. Always felt his post-SNL career, after a pretty good start really tailed off. Lynne, If Richelieu thought he was going to be able to fool history, he certainly was proved wrong. BTW, Is it true that you only date men who don't like Jim Garrison?

As you sometimes see disclaimers on controversial programs on television, I did not post said material as to imply or state that I agreed with material contained therein, and certainly do not advocate the "violent overthrow of the US government, and/or racism in any way, shape of form." Having said that I thank John Dolva, for his illuminating comments. I couldn't agree more (Apologizing for the post, IMO would be condescending to members of the forum, because it would seemingly imply that there thought processes were not advanced enough to "deal with" the subject matter,) We are all big boys and girls arent we? Also, the item was posted in the spirit of For Your Information. The post has been there for some 24 hours Tim and it seems like youre the only one having a cow over it. Another reason I posted it was there are the largest amount of links dealing with Iraq War etc, that seemed to be pretty informative) at the numerical section at the bottom, but I didn't spend more than a few minutes looking at them.

Richard. Yes, red dots as produced by 'terraserver' and no, the actual streets are not in line, however sometimes of course that is not an issue. I suggest checking with streretmap, if it corresponds then you have house location, otherwise there is something wrong with how MS produces these results. I estimate about 600 m as crow flies. There is option on terraserver map maker to view results as aerial, topographic or street map depending on whats available for that particular area. Richard, I live in Dallas and according to the "Mapsco" the "entire" length of Neely Street according to their map, is almost precisely 3,250 feet or, if you like just a little over 1/2 miles. Bearing in mind that is not going by the 1963 measurements which I do not have access to. Maybe this will help you more. See the link http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.ad...allas&2s=TX&2z= If this link doesent reproduce for you go to mapquest.com and (using the To: From:) place the addresses on, you should be on your way. Hope this helps

Tim, As I am sure you already know Cardinal Richelieu did for the Catholic Church, what Gregori Rasputin did for the Russian Orthodox. BTW Did you ever see "The Death of Rasputin" sketch on Saturday Night Live back in the old day's?

I usually avoid things of this nature like the plague, but in light of the last four years and the fact that this person is speaking about a topic that is as pertinent to current events as I can possibly imagine, I thought that Forum members might wan't to at least look at it. There are always people ready to shout fire in crowded movie theaters, but when there is something credible about the points being made, which in this case is entirely a subjective concept, maybe it helps to be aware of it. http://www.trytolive.com/ Home of Try to Live Better by Self Education Point in Question Welcome to the New American Fixers' Dictatorship! My guess is that the whole world is smart enough to know the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections made lots of people powerful and rich in the process of fixing our federal, state, and local elections. I believe Kerry and Company were in on the deal and sold out to the Bush bribers and enforcers; I will bet Kerry will pocket the 50 million dollars he has left over from his campaign scam. Will we ever have the pleasure of seeing the fixers hanging in public? I believe all elections since 1960 have been fixed by elite criminals controlled by big money. Clinton was a partner in some big money businesses with the Bush and Rockefeller empires which makes him a criminal elite in reality, and just as 'trustworthy'. Kerry never prosecuted the big fish; he could have initiated the sending of most of our political and business controllers to jail and the death house; ask The Ghosts of Sen. Paul Wellstone, investigative journalist Gary Webb, Sen. Mel Carnahan, Sen. John Tower, Sen. John Heinz, President Kennedy and His Son Jon and His Brother Sen. Robert, Congressman Wright Patman of Texas, Congressman Carroll Reese of Tennessee, Congressman Louis T. McFadden, Representative Henry Gonzalez, Representative Phil Crane of Illinois, the Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Jeremy Boorda, head of the Alaska Military District Gen. David McCloud, former Director of Central Intelligence William Colby, etc. Remember the switch from Dean to Kerry; Dean or Gore should rightfully be our president now. Tim, Is this where you found the "Zangetty" Story? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ghlite=zangetty

Even though I intuited correctly, that Ms. Paines Garage was going to be a "Lewis-Carrol Production," I actually took the time to read it from beginning to end. Even though what I am writing is ultimately just "my opinion." That book is the single most perverted propaganda piece to have been written and reach the masses since the day's when all the major American media mouthpieces were publishing their "assenting, salutations" for the, then recently released Warren Commission Report. My suggestion for reading the newspapers these day's when it comes to mainstream editorial/op-ed/AP/UPI stories that have anything to do with the Bush administration, is to keep a copy of George Orwell's "1984" handy as a reference guide. Final Thought An old Dylan song, for us who have lived through the last few decades resonates with the following lines. Senor, Senor do you know where were headin, Lincoln County Road or Armageddon?.......Seems like I've been done this way before, Is there any truth in that Senor?......Well, the last thing I remember before I stripped and kneeled Was that trainload of fools bogged down in a magnetic field. A gypsy with a broken flag and a flashing ring Said, "Son, this ain't a dream no more, it's the real thing." Senor, senor, you know their hearts is as hard as leather. Well, give me a minute, let me get it together. I just gotta pick myself up off the floor. I'm ready when you are, senor. Senor, senor, let's disconnect these cables, Overturn these tables. This place don't make sense to me no more. Can you tell me what we're waiting for, senor? From -Blood On the Tracks Senor (Tales of Yankee Power) Copyright © 1978 Special Rider Music

Tim, you recently stated on one of your post's that "I sleep better when a Republican is in the White House." Care to expound on that a little?

Those responsible are ultimately former Nixon officials, Rummie and Cheney. Bush is like the Queen of England, and Maureen Dowds calls him the Boy King. I don't think that anybody will be held accountable because despite the ocassional leak, everything is distorted, twisted and denied. If they can't even get Karl Rove on what I think is a transparent leak on his part, I don't think that anybody will be held accountable for anything, and the proof is that even 911 survivors were stymied by the Bush clan, when they demanded answers. Lynne, I agree with you 100% as well as the post about chad-free elections. The phenomenon of Operation Mockingbird, is highly sophisticated. When Andersen Cooper went ballistic during Hurrican Katrina, it was to me a breath of "new" air. Gee someone who is actually high-profile calling the Bush admiinistration on the carpet about the obvious "our government can't handle anything properly unless it involves 1. Scaring the hell out of the American people, ala constant unrelenting references to 9-11 2. Lies, deception and obfuscating the truth. There are a couple of acute problems in resolving this mess, both of which require an American public that is not "fiddling while Rome burns". 1. Restoring the Fairness in Media Act, jettisoned during the Reagan administration. This was the beginnning of "The Troubles." 2. Requiring every American to read "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky. # 2 is pure pie in the sky, but I am trying to make the point that IMO there are people in every era and geographic locale that are more than willing to bury their head in the sand while there is "a necessity to take care of business." Only when the situation (the obvious realization that this is the most corrupt administration in the history of the US) and something happens that is the proverbial last straw (as far as the American people are concerned) are the "people" going to hit the streets. I am of mixed opinions to just what kind of encore the Bush administrration is capable to emitting, but they are on a roll as they say, and I am not talking about "French or Kaiser."

To me the two most interesting angles after you get past the individuals - Oswald's (Lee and Marina), Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw, LBJ, Hoover, RFK etc....in other words the names that come to mind in sort of a generic way; Become Gen. Walker/Army Intelligence/Schmidt/Weissman/DeMohrenschildt connection and the CIA's Dulles/Helms/Angleton/Philips/Joannides connection if you can tie these two together in a concrete way you are on your way.....Where I differ, and I am not ashamed to admit it is that I think the "organized crime' tag is "out the window." When you come down to the bottom line, organized crime (as a group or disparate individuals) never, ever, ever had the power to do some of the things asociated with this crime. It is just an observation that at this point in time cannot be fully substantiated, but I believe will be soon that Ruby was "just as connected to intelligence agencies" as Oswald was. The item John has stumbled onto about Grant Stockdale to me is a real added layer. I also think about Gery Underhill and Wilcott. What was the quote that is attributed to Underhill "The Far-East section of the CIA was responsible for JFK's death. IMO points to the CIA "buddies" that share a connection with a seldom mentioned country - Greece. All you have to do is connect the dots... and look for the (where there's smoke there's) fire . Just Gotta do the math.

Jim, I have never gotten around to mentioning this but, I have been very intrigued regarding the John B Hurt linguist connection and the Oswald telephone calls incoming/outgoing. I am always at bookstores and usually check military history items as well as JFK books; several times I have stumbled upon World War 2 Pacific Theatre books that either are about codebreaking or have a section on it, and I never see anything about John B Hurt, which strikes me as a little odd. I think you are on to something on both counts timeline and the Hurt connection, I think your going to come up big at some point. Are there any documents pertaining to John B Hurt that are classified, do you think he could have been connected to intercepts regarding the Soviets and/or Cuba? Possibly N.S.A.? Your response would be greatly appreciated.

No, I am quite familiar with the Weitzman/7.65 Mauser issue and his subsequent mental problems, I just never knew that he was a "paranoid schizophrenic." The point I was trying to make is that people associated directly or indirectly with the JFK assassination, have been institutionalized more than I would have expected, which is just my opinion. On the other hand, Americans winding up in mental institutions that aren't truly mentally ill, is something that totally fits in with "sheep dipping," as well as a form of political oppression that is oft cited in other countries besides the good old USA. I also think the word of "one person" even a "qualified psychiatrist" as a means to institutionalize a person, can obviously be manipulated. I also was inferring that maybe one of the people on the list I submitted fit the latter category, or even the former.