Thomas Graves

I think that's an excellent question, Ray. Thanks for asking it. So, if PM was LHO, it looks like he couldn't have been holding his IR camera in Weigman and Darnell / Couch, unless the police took it back to Ruth's place, to be "found" there, later. -- Tommy Maybe he was holding binoculars or a very full (and therefore two-handed) mug of very, very hot coffee.

Andrej, Thanks for the modeling and the juxtaposing of the two images. I would like to point out that "Oswald's" right knee and the knee of the model seem to be pointed and bent in different directions, so it's not a very good match after all, IMHO. And look at how close together "Oswald's" legs are (in his tight-fitting, leg-hugging pants) compared to the model's farther-apart legs. Which would have made "Oswald" even more likely to tip over, IMHO. (When I say his right knee, I do mean his right knee.) -- Tommy Thomas: thanks for checking the model. I am not sure I understood your comment about the right knee pointing in different directions in the model and the man in the backyard picture. There is a slight misalignement of the two right knees which is maybe related to not turning the lower body in pelvis enough. It is more a perspective than a posture problem, it can be easily fixed. If the lower body is rotated just a bit more, the legs would also appear to be located closer together. I can give it one more try. This exercise was meant to check, using a model, whether a man could stand in the way depicted on this backyard picture while maintaining normal anatomical relations in his joints; disparities in some body parts in the overlay cannot be avoided because Andy model is not Oswald after all... Andrej, His whole right leg, especially when compared with his straight left leg, his overall body's orientation, and the direction his right foot is pointing, looks rather impossible. Like a Klein Bottle, or an Escher drawing. Like an optical illusion, if you will. Like it couldn't exist in 4-dimensional nature. Or 11, for that matter. -- Tommy And looking at it again, the whole thing looks phony because he has his left leg so straight and streched out-looking that it looks like only the toes and ball of that foot are touching the ground.

Dear Jim, Wouldn't the high-level boys and girls wanted to have influenced the Pentagon brass at Bethesda that night, anyway? (Et Cetera) Btw, would the commandeering or piggybacking of the plot by the sub-rogues somehow make the big boys less culpable in the assassination of JFK? Wouldn't the knowledge of the big boys' culpability (and the ability to document it) give the sub-rouges an enormous amount of leverage before and after the fact? Isn't it possible that at least one of the big boys was, unbeknownst to the rest of them, also a member of the sub-rogue group? -- Tommy

Chris wrote: "We are left with [Hosty's] "word" that this [Oswald] note was simply a threat about not questioning his wife (if it were so then it makes no sense to destroy it btw)." Great point, Chris. Regarding the too-short package Frazier claimed to have seen Oswald carry, that's one of the biggest enigmas of the whole case. Was Frazier playing a little reverse-psychology anti-limited hangout confidence game by saying it was, in so many words, kinda long but too short to have contained the disassembled Carcano? If it did contain curtain rods (which I've read Oswald's room didn't need), where did LHO put it when he entered the TSBD that morning? In the "domino room"? But why didn't Dougherty notice the package? -- Tommy

Of course, the experts at the School of Photographic Arts and Sciences at the Rochester Institute of Technology, one of the truly premier schools in the country, were likewise duped by this cheesy fakery when they reported to the House Select Committee on Assassinations: https://people.rit.edu/andpph/text-oswald-HSCA-report.html. It's fascinating how world-class experts at places like Dartmouth and RIT (and others) keep being taken in by cheap tricks the conspiracy theorists can spot in a heartbeat. In the full sequence of photos (see the above link, as well as https://jfk007.com/1056-2/ and http://www.jfklancer.com/byphotos.html), the "lean" (or lack thereof) of the structures and LHO himself appears to vary widely. In most reproductions of the photo being discussed here, CE-133A, the post looks pretty much perpendicular while LHO himself appears to be leaning at an odd Tower of Pisa angle. I'm aware of the Roscoe White speculation, as well as the ideological inconsistency of the two publications LHO is holding, and the fact that LHO immediately dismissed the photo shown to him as a fake is certainly food for thought. But to dismiss these photos as cheap fakery when they have "fooled" world-class photographic experts with no vested interest in the matter seems over the top. Fakery, while not impossible, seems less plausible to me than that LHO had Marina take them for some purpose that fit his quirky Marxist persona (or as Andrej suggests, that fit the conspirators' agenda). De Mohrenschildt's discovery of his version of the backyard photo in 1967 seems to me to make the fakery hypothesis exponentially less plausible. After I bought Harvey and Lee, I compared about 30 photos of myself taken between the ages of 15 and 22. You (and I, if I didn't know better) would have sworn these depicted at least three different people. The "three me's" looked far more dissimilar than supposed Harvey and supposed Lee. As those in the UFO community have learned, debates over old photographs are never settled; one expert's Real Deal Alien Spacecraft is another's Obvious Hubcap Suspended on Fishing Line. If this one is ever settled, it will be for reasons extraneous to the photos themselves (i.e., not through analysis of the photos but because the who, what, when, where and why is definitively learned). Lance, I think "Oswald's" square chin in the BYP is a dead giveaway that the photo was faked. -- Tommy

Andrej, Thanks for the modeling and the juxtaposing of the two images. I would like to point out that "Oswald's" right knee and the knee of the model seem to be pointed and bent in different directions, so it's not a very good match after all, IMHO. And look at how close together "Oswald's" legs are (in his tight-fitting, leg-hugging pants) compared to the model's farther-apart legs. Which would have made "Oswald" even more likely to tip over, IMHO. (When I say his right knee, I do mean his right knee.) -- Tommy

No, I didn't miss it. I ignored it because it makes no more sense than my gnomes-in-my-garden hypothesis. So the CIA and its helpers went through the entire Harvey and Lee "fake-rifle-purchase thing," not to mention the "Oswald-imposters-all-over-the-place thing," and any number of other "pre-assassination things," and then planted the rifle on the 6th floor, merely to frame LHO as an accomplice, and they were so content with their fake purchasing and rifle planting they didn't even care that LHO was standing outside at the very moment of the shooting? The notion that conspirator LHO might have loaned a fellow conspirator his trusty Mannlicher-Carcano strikes you as a plausible conspiracy scenario that serious investigators would have fallen for? Explain to me again how the "fake-lunchroom-encounter thing" fits into this. Can you really not see when a "hypothesis" has toppled over from sheer silliness? Even if your hypothesis were plausible - i.e., the CIA and its helpers really might have gone through massive pre-assassination efforts merely to frame LHO (and only LHO) as "just one of the accomplices" - there would have been umpteen ways to more convincingly frame him without raising the red flags that would be raised by having him standing outside on the TSBD steps at the moment of the assassination. If PM is ever proven to be LHO through indisputable photographic evidence, you can pretty well take it to the bank that the CIA wasn't masterminding the conspiracy. I'm not going to keep debating this since I'm occupied with setting traps for the pesky gnomes whom I hypothesize are attacking my garden, but I truly think self-respecting Conspiracy Theorists would be embarrassed by this sort of thing. There are one or more plausible conspiracy theories for the assassination, but none of them involves LHO standing in the shadows on the TSBD steps. In every field like this in which I've been involved, it's the willingness of Conspiracy Theorists and other True Believers to keep hypothesizing ever-expanding and more elaborate, convoluted and unrealistic scenarios that causes them not to be taken seriously. I bailed on the "alien abduction" phenomenon many years ago when the lack of hard evidence drove leading "researcher" Budd Hopkins (highly respected at the time) to the "hypothesis" that the aliens had - yep - mastered the art of invisibility. fairies.jpg Am I the only one who sees LHO there in the shadows in the left? Hi Lance, I've been kinda collaborating (I like to thing of it as "brainstorming") with Sandy in private message mode recently, but I do think a good question to ask him is, "Why would LHO have lent 'his' Carcano to anyone in the TSBD, anyway? So he or she could take some potshots at the pigeons during lunchtime?" How else could LHO be seen as the assassin or even just an accomplice if not through the planned "finding" of that rifle at the scene of the crime? Could the plotters really expect us to believe that Oswald had gone outside during the motorcade after having taken his rifle (per the limited reverse-psychology hangout of WBF) to the TSBD that morning and lent it to the sniper? Under this scenario, what was LHO thinking? "Well, I know they're going to tie that rifle to me, and I really don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing because, shoot fire, I'm just a commie accomplice in what will be seen as a 'probable communist two-man conspiracy,' and now I just hope the US won't invade my beloved Cuba because of this!" Alternatively, could LHO really have been so stupid / gullible as to take "his" Carcano to the TSBD that particular morning for one of Hemming's buddies to buy? Or did he have to for some reason, and did he then put "two plus two together" and go outside so he could be noticed / captured on film during the "hit"? (But not too far outside, mind you, so that none of the other possible bad guys who might be hanging around wouldn't see him there, way - way back in the corner.) That makes more sense than the aforementioned scenario, above, to me. But not by much, mind you. -- Tommy

Sandy, Tom Purvis' whole point is that "Oswald" in the backyard photo is holding the Carcano in such a way that the top of it is turned or tilted slightly towards the camera, causing part of the front sling "thingy" to be visible below the "bottom" as it hangs down a bit from it's side-mount position . I think he has a valid point because, although the "sling/belt" can be seen to be connected to the rear sling thingy in the BYP, it can't be seen to be connected to the front one because it isn't -- it's connected to the side mount and is, therefore, out of view. -- Tommy

Sandy Larsen and I have been tossing around the idea (mostly in private message mode) that the assassination plot was started by a group of rogue CIA officers / agents, and that their plot was in turn "hijacked" or "piggybacked" by a sub-rogue group of CIA guys who knew about the original plot and wanted to use it to not only kill JFK, but to also precipitate the invading of Cuba and the overthrowing of the Castros. Thoughts? -- Tommy Sandy: please correct me if I've misstated your theory.

bumped because it's a fascinating story on a fascinating thread

Chris, Maybe he arrived for work so early every morning to pack up drugs for Civello or guns for the 112th guys. -- Tommy

bumped by Robert's buddy, T. Graves

Thanks, Robert. And what model Carcano is in the National Archives as "the JFK assassination rifle"? (I'm just too lazy to look it up.) Do you think the National Archives / Warren Commission Report has that one labeled correctly, or are those dirty rotten scoundrels trying to deceive us on that, too? -- Tommy PS Which one of those two possibilities you mentioned had the little strap thingy on the bottom rather than on the side(s), Robert? Both of them? Neither of them? PPS I've just found this old post by Tom Purvis again after doing a "search this topic" query using the search term "turned." (We can only try to imagine what the photos he's talking about look like since they were deleted some time ago by the administrator in a "housekeeping" operation.) Do you disagree with his analysis, Robert? Post #37 [by Tom Purvis] Might I recommend that one take a close look at LHO holding the rifle and especially look at whether or not the rifle appears to be slightly turned "out" /rolled towards the camera. This is more obvious in the larger and better photos in which the bolt action and receiver can be seen. Of the attached photos: 1. The bottom photo has the rifle "rolled" at approximately the same amount as the rifle held by LHO. In so doing, the sling keeper mounted onto the right hand side and slid down to it's lowest position (which it would be were a rope pulling on it.) In this much better quality photo there appears to be a sling swivel mount which is mounted on the underside/bottom of the weapon. 2. The top photo demonstrates an even greater amount of "roll" in which the outline of the sling keeper on the right hand side is even more pronounced. The rifle held by LHO merely has the sling swivel mounted onto the right hand side of the weapon, and due to the manner in which the weapon is being held, a portion of the keeper appears to protrude from some mounting on the bottom of the weapon. [emphasis added by T. Graves] The poor quality of the photographs as well as the distance from camera to target make this another of those deceptive things which people see, and without verification of the facts, launch off into Alice in Wonderland theories.

Okey dokey, Chris. At 12:31 on a sunny November 22 afternoon, right? (lol) And maybe you can ask someone to stand about where Weigman / Darnell / Couch were filming from and tell you if your Imperial Reflex camera lens is glowing "in the dark" way way back there in the corner where the sun don't even shine. -- Tommy

I think if we knew exactly where he was standing and drew 2 foot circle around that spot I would have had to have been in or touching it. I stood pretty close to the wall and in that corner. Chris, So I guess it was impossible for the sunlight to have hit him on that forearm, even though he was holding it out from his body a foot or so... And even if he was standing a foot-and-a-half or so closer to the street in your two-foot circle. -- Tommy

Chris, So he either really was an idiot, or he was being evasive about something and "playing dumb," -- Tommy Edit: I've only read about two pages of his WC testimony so far and I can see that his grammar is pretty darn good for a "retard," but with one glaring mistake (or typo?) when he says "I been working there ever since." And a couple of possible "Texas-isms" like "hisself." Two examples of good grammar are "I have been with them 11 years" and "it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there." Not bad for a slow-witted Texas dummy.

Robert, I'm no expert and I don't feel like diving into the arcana (or even going back and reading all the freaking posts) of the Carcano models, dates, factory modifications, etc, so I'd like to ask you an honest question if I may: What kind of (Carcano?) carbine / short rifle / rifle do you think "Oswald" is holding in the backyard photos? A 91/24? Some sort of 91/38? What? Thanks, -- Tommy

Chris, He may have only just "caught himself" and changed his answer from "a top-secret OSS base in England for assassins, with primary emphasis in sniper activity" to "Seymour, Indiana." Pretty smart cookie, actually, to not spill the beans like that. (lol) -- Tommy

Chris, One of the reasons I asked about the sunlight is because I believe Prayer Man is wearing a shirt with its sleeves rolled all the way down, but the sleeve on his right arm appears to be rolled up to his elbow (or he's wearing a short sleeved shirt) because the sun's shining on that arm and "washing out" the forearm part of his sleeve. If you look closely, I think you can see that that sleeve extends down to just above his wrist, and his wrist and hand are a lighter color than the "washed out" sleeve. Do you think that Prayer Man was standing as far back as you were? -- Tommy

There was no need to be "elaborate" because the TSBD was not a secure location. Any "operator" worth his salt could have gotten in there the night before and built the nest / planted the rifle. Or gotten there early that morning and done same. Jack Dougherty had a key to the building and had a habit of getting there early, didn't he? To check / turn on something in the basement? -- Tommy

Chris, Thanks for sharing your photo. Not that it necessarily matters, but do you remember what time of day you took it? Were you as far back as you could get? Was the sun shining on any part of you, or were you where the sun don't shine? Just a thought: Maybe Prayer Person had been expecting a coming-down-Houston head shot. (lol) -- Tommy

Yes, Robert? How so? -- Tommy

The story IIRC from A.J. Weberman is that HEMMING called OSWALD on some public phone to offer him double the price of his Mannlicher-Carcano if only he would bring it to the Texas School Book Depository on the morning of 11/22/1963. HEMMING claimed that he called from Miami, and so the obvious implication was that some third party, known to both HEMMING and OSWALD, would be the person to pick up the rifle. Would this be Loran Hall? We have nothing further from A.J. Weberman on the topic. We do have some clues from Jeff Caufield's new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy (2015), namely, that the plotters of the JFK assassination were well-known figures of the Radical Right, and that OSWALD himself had begun to move within the Radical Right while he was in New Orleans. This means that any well-known figures in the Radical Right could have been the pick-up men for the MC rifle. One suspect comes to mind immediately -- Roscoe White. Photographer Jack White says that Roscoe White's chin, neck, shoulders, right wrist and stance are featured in OSWALD'S Backyard Photographs. Roscoe White was a well-known member of the Radical Right in Dallas -- and also was familiar with OSWALD in the Marines. There is a book in 1993 by Ron Lewis, who was one of the many advisers to Oliver Stone for his 1992 movie, JFK, and the title of that book is, Flashback: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald. In that book, Ron Lewis claims that OSWALD told Ron that Guy Banister was blackmailing him because of the Walker shooting, and that Roscoe White was OSWALD's contact in Dallas. Maybe Loran Hall. Maybe Roscoe White. We have multiple suspects for the pickup men. As for your suggestion that perhaps HEMMING made that call from Miami to Dallas to establish his own alibi -- that also makes sense to me. Yet at the same time it suggests that HEMMING had prior knowledge of the JFK assassination details. This is exactly what A.J. Weberman has always said. HAPPY LABOR DAY, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, In an earlier post you wrote: "Under my scenario, if Lee Harvey Oswald had turned down Gerry Patrick Hemming's offer of double the price of his rifle to bring it to the TSBD on Friday, they would have selected some other Patsy -- possibly including Hemming himself." [emphasis added] So, it's not logical that Hemming would have been the backup patsy if Oswald had refused to sell the MC, or if he'd called in sick on 11/22/63, right? Because Hemming wasn't in Dallas on 11/22/63. He was in Florida. -- Tommy

Tom, In my above post, I'm talking about a "splice" of some kind and the anomalies it created on the ground next to or behind LHO's left foot, IIRC. -- Tommy

Didn't GPH have an alibi? Like, he was playing chess with his buddies in Miami and called someone as soon as he heard about the assassination? -- Tommy Well, Tommy, according to A.J. Weberman, it was HEMMING himself who confessed to Weberman that he called Lee Harvey Oswald on some public telephone on November 21st, 1963. So, if HEMMING was confessing to Weberman (as Weberman said) then why would HEMMING need an alibi for his story? Or maybe you mean that HEMMING would need an alibi just in case Loran Hall was arrested. Or, if Weberman is correct (as I believe he is) then of course HEMMING might need an alibi just in case Lee Harvey Oswald had named HEMMING as his own alibi. Yet IMHO nobody among the JFK plotters believed that the Patsy would live even two hours after the JFK assassination. IMHO, if anybody had shot Lee Harvey Oswald in the street, or in the Texas Movie Theater, then Oswald would still have been convicted as the JFK assassin, based on the placement of his rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD, along with three spent shell casings, as well as the New Orleans TV film of Oswald claiming to be a fanatical supporter of Fidel Castro and Cuba. Alive or dead, the Patsy was already convicted. HEMMING had the alibi that he was in Miami (and of course I don't know whether he really was there or in Dallas). But the fact that Loran Hall had HEMMING's rifle in Dallas looked really bad for HEMMING -- making him a possible "Plotter". By the way -- if Loran Hall had been selected as the Patsy -- and then shot dead in the street by the actual Plotters -- then he would have been convicted as somebody who had once fought in battles alongside Fidel Castro and Che Guevara -- because he really did. And so did HEMMING. HAPPY LABOR DAY, --Paul Trejo Did Hemming say he told Oswald that he (Hemming) would pick up the MC at the TSBD on 11/22/63, himself? Hemming logically assumed that he would be a suspect and was trying to establish, by calling someone on 11/22/63, that he was in Florida, not Dallas.