Thomas Graves

Well, you sure should know what they look like, Bobby. BTW, You still singin' that old farmer's song, "Oh, Horsie Keep Your Tail Up" ? The lyrics are quite ... repetitive. You know. Until you get to the end. " Oh My God! Yeeessss! Yeeessss! Yeeeesssssssss!!! " --Tommy PS And your goats? How are your goats doing?

Oh my Goodness, Sandy. I happen to disagree with you. I must, you see. Because the Agency pays me darn good money to confuse people with misinformation here, and to create distractions. For example, they don't want anyone to realize that this "Lovelady" guy in this Alyea film was actually .................................................. nope, I just can't tell you. I took that darn oath of secrecy, you see. But boy oh boy, would you be surprised to find out who he really was! --Tommy

Well, gosh, Bob. You are the one who seems to be obsessed with finding Calvery in Couch / Darnell, etc. I figured a good way of ID-ing her for sure in any 11/22/63 photo or film (so she can be spotted in other photos and films) would be to ask one of the women with whom she claimed to have witnessed the assassination (Reed, Hicks, and Westbrook) "whether or not Thierry Speth identified Gloria correctly down there by the Stemmons sign." Just a suggestion. BTW, I still don't understand what your ideal scenario for Calvery would be. Standing on the "island" during the motorcade? Standing by the Thornton sign during the motorcade? Standing with "Reed" and "Hicks" by the Stemmons sign during the motorcade? Shooting at JFK from a TSBD window during the motorcade? In answering this question, just forget what she said, and forget what Reed and Hicks and Westbrook said, and forget about Thierry Speth's alleged "identification" of her, and forget about what we know she looked like from her high school year book and her wedding picture, etc. Where do you want her to be and what do you want her to do in order for your theory-in-progress about Shelley and Lovelady and Baker and Truly and Oswald "to work"? Please don't go into any detail here about those characters. The Question For Robert Prudhomme: Where do you want Gloria Jean Calvery to be during the motorcade, and what do you want her to for the first few minutes after it, you know, to make your theory-in-progress "work"? --Tommy Bumped for Mr. Robert Prudhomme, who seems to be avoiding it.

Dear Robert, As Lovelady wrote in his First Day Affidavits, their lunch period started at 12 noon and lasted until 12:45. The assassination occurred at 12:31. Why would those people go back in the building thirteen or fourteen minutes early to get ready to go back to work with all that excitement going on outside? I think most of those people are going back inside in Couch / Darnell to either 1 ) get to a telephone before one of their colleagues did, or 2 ) to throw up in the bathroom. --Tommy

Thanks, Duncan, That's what I'm starting to think, too. Except I think it actually is Shelley, and in the very short continuation GIF (which I haven't posted on this thread), we can see him crossing over towards the "island." Or the "peninsula," if you will. --Tommy So, who else would like to cast their vote(s) now that I've finally managed to get this thread back on topic? Don't be shy. It's okay to be "Undecided," it really is ... as long as you don't say "No" to Shelley! LOL --Tommy bumped

Wow, that really does look like Lovelady. But damn... I wish he had his shirt on. Plaid or striped... plaid or striped ... plaid or striped ... Sandy, The deceased Gary Mack claimed that this is Lovelady and that you can make out some of the plaid pattern in his shirt. I don't know if Gary had seen a better copy of the film, or if he had seen it in just a split second of this one, but I think Gary was an honest man, and I believe what he said about this. I don't think he was "disinfo" like I am. LOL --Tommy PS I think the direct sunshine coming through the window behind "Lovelady" caused photographic over exposure of the guy's shirt, which made it look a lot lighter in color than it really was, and also "washed out" any plaid pattern it might have had.

I'm also starting to believe that Lovelady and Shelly didn't leave the building. And once again I read in Lovelady's statement what I've read and heard before, that there was a shot, a short pause, followed by two shots in quick succession. The two shots in quick succession couldn't have been fired by the same gun. (But then, this belongs on another thread.) A quick comment about Lovelady's handwritten same-day affidavit. http://www.reopenken...velady-location It's interesting to note that he went to the trouble to write in his affidavit that his lunch period was from 12 noon to 12:45. Even though it was probably true (I haven't taken the time to verify it), I don't understand why he felt it necessary to include that information in his affidavit. Did Lovelady expect the investigators to believe that he and Shelley had strictly observed their 45-minute lunch period on that exceptional day, i.e., that the moment "when it was over" just happened to coincide with the official end of their lunch period? What exactly was "all over" when they "returned to work"? Since we all know that the assassination occurred around 12:31, if Lovelady and Shelley really did go back to work at 12:45, what had they been doing during the previous 14 minutes or so? Of Truly's other employees, who else actually went back to work at 12:45 besides Lovelady and Shelley? Anyone at all? Lovelady originally wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went back to work." Edit: Sandy, if you read the sentence above you will realize that your recent interpretation of what Lovelady meant by the phrase "went back into the building" is incorrect. For the simple reason that if he had meant what you think he did by that phrase, then he wouldn't have written as long of a sentence as he actually did write, i.e., he would simply have written "After it was over we went back into the building." In the sentence he did write, he is telling us two things: 1 ) They went back to work, 2 ) after they went back into the building (as opposed, I suppose, to their immediately going back to work on some (admittedly silly) project outside the building.) Yes, you're right. I actually realized I'd made that mistake earlier today when I was studying (again) Lovelady's statement. I thought that all he'd said was "After it was over we went back to work." Which I interpretted as their going back inside, where he works. I don't have any idea why he scratched off the "back to work" part. Then for some strange reason he put a hard-to-see, elevated but not inserted "I" above the word "and", crossed out "went back to work" and inserted in its place, "took some police officers up to search the building." I firmly believe that his final, edited sentence was meant to read, "After it was over we went back into the building and I took some police officers up to search the building." This is what I think happened: He wrote that they went inside and went to work. Because... who knows... maybe they did do a little work, or tried to, or knew they should be working. He then decided not to say that at all, so he crossed it off and instead said he helped some policemen. Which I assume is true. After the statement was finished, he proof-read it and realized he had forgotten to write the word "I." So he inserted it by writing it above where he meant it to be. He didn't know how to use an insertion mark. There's a huge difference between the two sentences. I thought I'd mention it because I honestly don't "get it." And I think it smells a bit fishy. Oh... I know what you're getting at! By "went to work" Lovelady meant that they went to work on the plan to frame Oswald, etc., etc. LOL, yeah it does sound fishy. But I think Lovelady would have to be a Maxwell Smart to make a mistake like that! It raises some important questions. For example, what exactly was Shelly doing while Lovelady "took some police officers up to search the building"? Working? Honestly I'd be surprised if anybody did any work following the assassination. But who knows what guys like Shelly were doing. Anybody's guess. Guarding one of the rear elevators (as he was allegedly ordered to do by his boss, Truly) before he, in turn, assigned that job to Jack Dougherty and went upstairs, himself? --Tommy bumped because Sandy obviously hadn't read this edited version when he responded to the pre-edited original Funny. Nice inference, Sandy, but that's not what I meant by "went to work" and "smells fishy," and if you go back and read my most recent version of this post, you'll see that I deleted the two sentences "I thought I'd mention it because I honestly don't 'get it.' And I think it smells a bit fishy." The reason I deleted those sentences is because I finally realized that Lovelady was probably telling nothing but the truth (but like a good lawyer, wasn't volunteering the whole truth) in this handwritten First Day Affidavit. It's clear that his original sentence ended with the statement, "... and we went back to work." I have no problem with that now because I think he was just making a general statement (i.e., their helping the police and guarding the elevator were both examples of work in general, but then he realized that he needed to be more specific about what kind of "work" he had himself done (i.e., taken some police officers up to search the building), and so he changed his sentence, which we should be grateful for. Bottom line -- I "get" it now, and it no longer smells "fishy" to me. --Tommy

David Scheim thinks Decker was associated with Dallas mafioso Joe Civello in a friendly kind of way. From the Spartacus website: "In his book, The Mafia Killed President Kennedy (1988) David E. Scheim claimed that "Decker was well-connected in the underworld... Decker maintained friendships with two notorious local hoodlums and served as a character reference for Joseph Civello when the Dallas Mafia boss applied for parole on a narcotics conviction." --Tommy

Richard, Unfortunately, I've read in a document that Lovelady was all of 5' 8". Which is still pretty short in my 6' 5" book. --Tommy

Thanks, Duncan, That's what I'm starting to think, too. Except I think it actually is Shelley, and in the very short continuation GIF (which I haven't posted on this thread), we can see him crossing over towards the "island." Or the "peninsula," if you will. --Tommy So, who else would like to cast their vote(s) now that I've finally managed to get this thread back on topic? Don't be shy. It's okay to be "Undecided," it really is ... as long as you don't say "No" to Shelley! LOL --Tommy

Thanks, Duncan, That's what I'm starting to think, too. Edit: Except I think it actually is Shelley, and in the very short continuation GIF (which I haven't posted on this thread), we can see him crossing over towards the "island." Or the "peninsula," if you will. --Tommy

It just might be "too much to ask", Barto, as you so rhetorically and delicately put it. However ... What's the magic word? --Tommy

Yes, PM is quite important, but it is also important to clearly follow the trail of bread crumbs the conspirators (then and now) have laid down for us. This case is full of false leads designed to distract the attention of researchers away from uncovering what really happened. Shelley and Lovelady walking down to the rail yards is one of these fabrications, and was invented to accomplish two things. The first was to discredit the testimony of Victoria Adams, who ran down the stairs in the first minute of the assassination and saw neither Oswald, Baker and Truly or the 2nd floor lunch room encounter. By delaying Shelley's and Lovelady's entrance into the rear of the building by 5-10 minutes, and by falsifying Adams' testimony to say she ran into Shelley and Lovelady near the rear stairs, before she went outside, established she was just a muddled young girl in 3" heels who could not possibly have made it downstairs before Truly and Baker had climbed the stairs. The second reason to place Lovelady and Shelley walking down the extension is to establish that Baker went into the TSBD within 25 seconds of the last shot, and was able to make it to the 2nd floor lunch room in the time allotted by the WC. While you may think PM is the only important thing here, it must be understood that getting Baker to the 2nd floor lunch room is equally important, and if the fabrications the WC came up with to put Baker there can be destroyed, we then cannot put Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting. If it can be proven Oswald was not in the 2nd floor lunch room immediately after the shooting, it then becomes possible for him to be anywhere, such as the top step of the entrance to the TSBD. I already pointed out that their timings with regards Victoria Adams gave the WC a way out and dismiss her testimony. I also mentioned that the twos WC testimony was a load of rubbish in comparison to their statements. Regarding the Baker Truly fugezi, that went even more fubar with their testimony, which is something I made a mention of as well in my article. So I am a bit at a loss what you are trying to point out to me, no offense intended but you are preaching to the choir here. And the 2nd floor lunch room encounter is probably the biggest lie of the whole thing, and I pointed that out in my movie in a 20 minute lecture. In V2 this will be even addressed more severely Now then on to more important matters: who else is going to email Megan Bryant at the 6th floor museum and ask for the 1st generation Darnell film to be released thru 4K scans, any takers? Barto, I think one of the least civil members here should do it. That's what usually happens, anyway. You know, the rude, uncultured, un-diplomatic, over-the-top, "9-11 was an inside job," demanding type? --Tommy PS Do you know whether or not The Sixth Floor Museum even does that sort of thing? For free?

Well, gosh, Bob. You are the one who seems to be obsessed with finding Calvery in Couch / Darnell, etc. I figured a good way of ID-ing her for sure in any 11/22/63 photo or film (so she can be spotted in other photos and films) would be to ask one of the women with whom she claimed to have witnessed the assassination (Reed, Hicks, and Westbrook) "whether or not Thierry Speth identified Gloria correctly down there by the Stemmons sign." Just a suggestion. BTW, I still don't understand what your ideal scenario for Calvery would be. Standing on the "island" during the motorcade? Standing by the Thornton sign during the motorcade? Standing with "Reed" and "Hicks" by the Stemmons sign during the motorcade? Shooting at JFK from a TSBD window during the motorcade? In answering this question, just forget what she said, and forget what Reed and Hicks and Westbrook said, and forget about Thierry Speth's alleged "identification" of her, and forget about what we know she looked like from her high school year book and her wedding picture, etc. Where do you want her to be and what do you want her to do in order for your theory-in-progress about Shelley and Lovelady and Baker and Truly and Oswald "to work"? Please don't go into any detail here about those characters. The Question For Robert Prudhomme: Where do you want Gloria Jean Calvery to be during the motorcade, and what do you want her to for the first few minutes after it, you know, to make your theory-in-progress "work"? --Tommy

Yes, I know. During the 4th of July weekend, wasn't it? Have you seen my recent post about "K. Hicks" and her 70-something husband (?), James Daniel Hicks, of Texarkana, Texas, I found on Intelius? If you click on "K Hicks" near the bottom of his Intelius page, you'll see that one of the places she used to live in was Irving, Texas. Why don't you call him and politely ask him to put you in contact with Karan (so that she can look at the 11/22/63 photos of "Calvery, Reed, and Hicks -- but don't tell him that -- you know, so she can tell you if the identifications of those three women by Thierry Speth were accurate?). Suggestion: Call him after the Holidays, and start off by saying, "Hello, my name is Robert Prudhomme. I'm doing some historical research on the South-Western Publishing Company and it's former employees, and I was wondering if I could please speak with Karan Hicks for a few seconds?" If you write a letter, instead, address it to Mrs. James Hicks (or Mrs. James D. Hicks) at his address (but not "in care of" or "C/O"), and enclose copies of the photos, your phone number and address, and tell her to please feel free to answer your questions my mail, "or, if it's more convenient for you, please let me know by mail when would be a convenient day and time for me to call you." (I suggest that you first send the letter, and if you don't hear from him (or her) in two weeks, call him and say to him what I suggested, above.) You are very, very fortunate that she has an unusual first name (unlike "Carol" as in Carol Reed), that she identified herself as "Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks" in her FBI statement, and that I was, therefore, able to find her for you, Bob. Probably. Good luck!, --Tommy

Dear Robert, As regards my opinions on the actions of Lovelady and Shelley for the five minutes or so after the assassination, all I can say is, "the jury Is still out." I know that must be very frustrating for you to hear, but it it what it is. I will say, though, that if and when "the verdict" (i.e. my conclusion) comes in, I promise that you be the first to know. How can I say that? Because I know that you'll be the only other member "online" up so darn early in the morning. LOL In all seriousness, I'd like to see some enhanced (i.e., stabilized, blown up, adjusted for contrast and brightness) individual "frames" (and, preferably, a further-enhanced GIF) which were derived from the pertinent Couch or Darnell GIF (I get them mixed up) which shows Possible-Lovelady as he bends over and talks with the Lady In Black on the steps. I need to get a better view of Possible-Lovelady's head, face and shirt before I can be absolutely convinced that this person is, indeed, Billy Lovelady. (Right now I'm kinda almost leaning in that direction, if it makes you feel any better. And as regards Shelley? I still believe Shelley can be seen in Couch / Darnell as he walks part-way down Elm Street Extension and then starts crossing over it, walking towards the "island." Which would fit in quite well with his First Day Affidavit, wouldn't it?) I knew that would "make your day." I hope that that doesn't seem like an unreasonable request on my part. To allay any paranoiac suspicions you might have about said request, it doesn't matter to me if Duncan does it, or Chris Davidson, or John Dolva, or whomever. In fact I'll let you choose who does it, you can politely ask them to do it, and we'll "take it from there. " My only condition is that you must refer them to this post so they can read my definition of "enhanced," above (in bold red text), and they must post their results on this thread. Agreed? Warning: If I don't get a positive response from you within the next twelve calendar months, I will take the initiative to ask your buddy Duncan to do it for me. In the meantime, don't "bug" me about my opinion on Lovelady's - Shelley's actions within the first five minutes or so after the assassination, and I won't go out of my way to "bug" you on yours. Bear in mind, however, that I do reserve the right to continue to post my tentative opinions on the matter, and to try to politely and civilly rebut anyone, including you, who disagrees with me on said tentative conclusions. Why, you ask? Well, this is, after all, the JFK Assassination Debate forum, and trying to rebut another person's (or other peoples') arguments is an integral part of the debating process, isn't it. Sincerely, --Tommy bumped in an attempt to attract the attention of a digitally-talented volunteer like Chris Davidson, Duncan McRae, or John Dolva

Fascinating posts, everybody, but I'd really like to get my thread back on topic. So, ... Would anyone else care to cast their vote on whether or not Lovelady and / or Shelley can be seen walking down Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell? (Please specify for both people, e.g., Lovelady "No" , Shelley "Undecided") Thank you, --Tommy Perhaps you guys can start a new thread, move your fascinating posts on this thread to it, and carry on elsewhere? If you don't, I'll delete this whole thread.

My sarcastic joke: Who ID'd "Calvary" with Hicks and Reed on Elm Street in the first place, anyway? Some French guy [Thierry Speth] who thinks the moon landings were faked! LOL --Tommy NOW GO TO POSTS # 125, 126, 127, ... , THIS THREAD, AND CONTINUE READING, BOB. -- T. Graves, 12/22/15 EDITED AND BUMPED FOR ROBERT PRUDHOMME --Tommy

Stupid question: Why do we want to know who was left on the steps? --Tommy

Not to mention the obvious clothing differences between this "Gloria Calvery" and the Couch / Darnell Running Woman. --Tommy Hi Thomas That too. What I would like to know is, how was the woman seen with Reed (Reid?) and Hicks first identified as Gloria Calvery, and by whom? We've already been through all of that, Bob. Don't you remember? Go to post # 125 in your thread Who Saw Baker Enter The TSBD. As to how he "identified" these three women (Calvery, Hicks, and Reed), I don't know, Bob. He didn't consult with me. I guess you'll have to ask him, if he's still alive. --Tommy PS Regarding Gloria's friend / colleague, Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks, she could very well be the "K Hicks" who is related to James Daniel Hicks (now in his seventies), listed here: http://www.intelius.com/people/James-Hicks/08c1hje0d7q (Her Intelius page says she has lived in Irving, Texas.) Karan Hicks' FBI statement: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0340b.htm

Not to mention the obvious clothing differences between this "Gloria Calvery" and the Couch / Darnell Running Woman. --Tommy

On this forum? --Tommy

Kathy, Do you think the guy next to him is Shelley? --Tommy

Richard, Decker had a very shady background, too, if I remember correctly. Or was it Butler? --Tommy

Dear Robert, Good deal. Please be advised that I was still editing the post while you were replying to it. Therefore, I suggest that you go back and read it again. I'm talking specifically about the "individual frames and further-enhanced GIF" part. --Tommy