Thomas Graves

Dear Bob, I'm not "demanding" anything, at least no more than you "demand" in your non-stop rhetorical questions. Answer one question for Prudhomme, and he scoffs at your answer, makes a snide remark, and asks you two or three more. Why do you resist telling us what you think Truly and Baker did? And Shelley and Lovelady, too? No, Bob, I'm not implying that Oswald was guilty. It sure would be nice if we could prove that Oswald was Prayer Person, though, wouldn't it? First I'd like to figure out what he or she is doing with his or her hands, wouldn't you? Don't you think Oswald could have been innocent even if Prayer Person was someone other than Oswald? --Tommy

Dear Bob, What do you mean "we don't see Baker approach the stairs in the Darnell clip"? What's your definition of "approach," anyway? Doesn't "approach" mean to go towards something and get closer and closer to it? If Baker wasn't running towards the steps and getting close to them, then why in the heck did the tall, suit-wearing guy at the foot of them sidestep out of his way and wave him up them with his left arm? (Yes, Bob, I'm aware of the fact that Baker veered and didn't run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.) The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them! Haven't we already talked about this? --Tommy By the way, While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, just where you want them to be. 1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63) 2 ) Marion L. Baker 3 ) Roy S. Truly 4 ) Vicki Adams 5 ) Billy Lovelady 6 ) William H. Shelley Thanks! Sorry Tommy but your questions are from post #168 just to be clear. And also that is 6 people x 5 timing locations or 30 BioChronoGeo estimations. At roughly 1 "BioChronoGeo estimate" per day it could take several months for a reply.. what with holidays, travel, vacation, sick days,etc,. I'd lower the bar and ask for an estimation [Where were Oswald, Baker, Truly, Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady] : A ) at the time of last shot, (Where were they) B ) 1 minute post last shot (where did they go) C ) and at 12:33 (when LHO was leaving the building) Hopefully we can all get a better understanding this year using this reduced workload. I think that's a wonderful idea, Ed. Robert Prudhomme seems to be intent on not only proving that Oswald was completely innocent, but in simultaneously proving that Baker and Truly and / or Shelley and Lovelady were conspirators. Let's see what he comes up with! --Tommy

Dear Bob, What do you mean "we don't see Baker approach the stairs in the Darnell clip"? What's your definition of "approach," anyway? Doesn't "approach" mean to go towards something and get closer and closer to it? If Baker wasn't running towards the steps and getting close to them, then why in the heck did the tall, suit-wearing guy at the foot of them sidestep out of his way and wave him up them with his left arm? (Yes, Bob, I'm aware of the fact that Baker veered and didn't run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.) The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them! Haven't we already talked about this? --Tommy By the way, While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, just where you want them to be. 1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63) 2 ) Marion L. Baker 3 ) Roy S. Truly 4 ) Vicki Adams 5 ) Billy Lovelady 6 ) William H. Shelley Thanks! Sorry Tommy but your questions are from post #168 just to be clear. And also that is 6 people x 5 timing locations or 30 BioChronoGeo estimations. At roughly 1 "BioChronoGeo estimate" per day it could take several months for a reply.. what with holidays, travel, vacation, sick days,etc,. I'd lower the bar and ask for an estimation A) at the time of last shot, (Where were they) 1 minute post last shot (where did they go) C) and at 12:33 (or 3 minute post when LHO is leaving the building) Hopefully we can all get a better understanding this year using this reduced workload.

Dear Bob, ALL OF THEM, but the evil, evil FBI must have destroyed them all. (Their signed statements, not the people.) Pray tell -- where were the six people, according to your theory? You know, the six people I listed in post # 174? You do have a working theory, don't you? --Tommy

Dear Bob, How many people reported seeing Baker run down to the corner to talk with a policeman or two? BTW, Where, in your theory, were those six people (Oswald, Truly, Baker, Adams, Shelley, and Lovelady) at the times I posted? You know, way back in post # 174? Merry Christmas, --Tommy

Bumped for Thomas Graves I asked you first, Bobby. Let's see.... Do you think Oswald was "Prayer Person"? Do you think Shelley was on the front steps and then went over, by himself, to the "island" and spoke with Gloria Calvery, and then rejoined Lovelady on the steps where they hung out for three minutes or so, and then Shelley and Lovelady walked down Elm Street Extension to the railway yard / parking lot, and then they reentered the TSBD through a side / back door and encountered Adams and Styles on the first floor? Etc, etc. Please fill us in! And what were Baker and Truly doing this period of time? And Oswald! Let's not forget Oswald. I'm speaking about Lee Harvey Oswald, of course, You know, the guy Ruby shot on 11/24/63? What was he doing? Thanks! --Tommy Uh, no, I believe my questions preceded yours, Thomas. Dear Bob, Please see my post # 174, above. In it I asked you where six people were at different times during and after the assassination. I have bumped those questions several times for you now, but you refuse to answer them. Perhaps you are unable to answer them. If so, let me put the questions to you this way -- Where, within reason, would you like those persons to have been at those different times? You know, to make your theory work? Before I asked you those questions in post # 174, I had already told you how it was that Frazier and Molina might have missed Baker running up the steps -- because Baker probably passed behind them. As far as Molina's seeing Truly but not Baker is concerned, for all we know Truly didn't catch up with Baker until they had both entered the TSBD, with Baker several steps ahead of Truly. Why should we assume that Truly caught up with him on the steps, with Baker in plain view of Molina when Truly and Baker met? Are you simply unable to answer the questions I asked you in post # 174, and have bumped several times since? Or are you simply unwilling? Thanks, --Tommy

Bumped for Thomas Graves I asked you first, Bobby. Let's see.... Do you think Oswald was "Prayer Person"? Do you think Shelley was on the front steps during the shooting, and then went over, by himself, to the "island" and spoke with Gloria Calvery, and then rejoined Lovelady on the steps where they hung out for three minutes or so, and then Shelley and Lovelady walked down Elm Street Extension to the railway yard / parking lot, and then they reentered the TSBD through a side / back door and encountered Adams and Styles on the first floor? Etc, etc. Please fill us in! And what were Baker and Truly doing this period of time? And Oswald! Let's not forget Oswald. I'm speaking about Lee Harvey Oswald, of course, You know, the guy Ruby shot on 11/24/63? What was he doing? Was he still on the front steps when Shelley and Lovelady came back to them via the first floor? Thanks! --Tommy

Dear Bob, [...] While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, Bob, just where you want them to be. 1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63) 2 ) Marion L. Baker 3 ) Roy S. Truly 4 ) Vicki Adams 5 ) Billy Lovelady 6 ) William H. Shelley Thanks! edited, augmented, and bumped for Robert Prudhomme Bumped again for Robert Prudhomme. Where were these people, Bob? Thanks, --Tommy

Dear Bob, No, I'm not a clairvoyant, but I can see. Have you had your eyes checked recently? Perhaps you need new spectacles. Can't you see the tall, suit-wearing guy side-step to his right and motion Baker up the steps with his left hand? (Yes, Bob, I do realize that Baker did not run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.) Do you really think the suit-wearing guy was swatting at, and trying to avoid, a bumble bee at the base of the steps? Or is it more of a case of your seeing only what you want to see? --Tommy

Dear Bob, What do you mean "we don't see Baker approach the stairs in the Darnell clip"? What's your definition of "approach," anyway? Doesn't "approach" mean to go towards something and get closer and closer to it? If Baker wasn't running towards the steps and getting close to them, then why in the heck did the tall, suit-wearing guy at the foot of them sidestep out of his way and wave him up them with his left arm? (Yes, Bob, I'm aware of the fact that Baker veered and didn't run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.) The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them! Haven't we already talked about this? --Tommy By the way. While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, Bob, just where you want them to be. 1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63) 2 ) Marion L. Baker 3 ) Roy S. Truly 4 ) Vicki Adams 5 ) Billy Lovelady 6 ) William H. Shelley Thanks! edited, augmented, and bumped for Robert Prudhomme

Dear Bob, What do you mean "we don't see Baker approach the stairs in the Darnell clip"? What's your definition of "approach," anyway? Doesn't "approach" mean to go towards something and get closer and closer to it? If Baker wasn't running towards the steps and getting close to them, then why in the heck did the tall, suit-wearing guy at the foot of them sidestep out of his way and wave him up them with his left arm? (Yes, Bob, I'm aware of the fact that Baker veered and didn't run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.) The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them! Haven't we already talked about this? --Tommy By the way, While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, just where you want them to be. 1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63) 2 ) Marion L. Baker 3 ) Roy S. Truly 4 ) Vicki Adams 5 ) Billy Lovelady 6 ) William H. Shelley Thanks!

Dear Bob, We know from Couch / Darnell that Baker veered to the right some when he jumped up on the sidewalk, so he probably didn't run up the left side of the steps, the side that Frazier and Molina were facing. Baker probably passed behind both of them. Which would explain why they didn't notice him. It sounds like Baker's route up the steps passed in front of Pauline Sanders, or maybe she was just more observant. --Tommy

Sounds like Al Davis arriving at a Raider's training camp back in the day. --Tommy

Bob, But were they asked whether or not they saw a white-helmeted motorcycle cop run past them? No, they weren't. Luckily for us, Pauline Sanders volunteered she'd noticed him. Just because none of the others volunteered that they had seen Baker doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't seen him. Let's face it, there was lot's of other stuff going on down on Elm Street and on the Grassy Knoll for them to focus on at the time. --Tommy

Richard, Why did Oswald, with pistol, think he was being taken to the Texas Theater? To perform some more lookout work? --Tommy

Not my theory, Tommy. I just believe that Baker was right with his first affidavit. You are free to believe what you want to believe. Thank you, Ray! --Tommy

So, Ray, The theory is that the guy in the brown jacket that Baker allegedly saw was a prefabricated, non-existent character, intended to represent Oswald but, fortunately for us, based on old, faulty, mole-hunt-based information that the FBI or CIA had unwittingly furnished to Army Intel or the Dallas Police Department. --Tommy

So a trained cop doesn't know when he has reached the second floor. You think he mistook a turn in the stairs for a floor? He saw a man walking away from him not that he walked into the lunch room and accosted him. If you believe his later version, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that you might be interested in. It's a confusing building, Ray. Maybe that's one of the reasons it was chosen. It has a passenger elevator that only goes to up to the fourth floor, stairs near the front door that only go up to the second floor, a basement that's half above ground and half under ground, split-level stairways, eccentric freight elevators, etc. Baker was a motorcycle cop, not an architect. He had lots on his mind. No wonder he was confused. If I had been Baker, I, too, probably would have been confused, when I was writing my report, about which floor I had encountered Oswald on in that darn building. Why? For the simple reason that I wouldn't have made any special effort to remember the incident. Based on what Truly had told me about him at the time, I would have thought that Oswald was of no consequence. I don't know about you, but I don't try to remember details of things that I think are of no consequence in my life. I have a hard enough time remembering the things I think are important! --Tommy A cop trained to be observant described a guy on the third or fourth floor as "... a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket." Third or fourth floor.....no.... ..second floor (allegedly) White man................... check 30 years old................ no...... 24 years old. 165 lbs..........................no..... 131 lbs dark hair..............,,,,,,,,,,check Light brown jacket.......No ... patterned shirt. I go with his first affidavit. Ray, Ironically (?) the height and weight match almost perfectly those sneakily given for Oswald by FBI agent John Fain back in 1960 when he interviewed Marguerite (who later said Lee never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life) after Oswald had "defected" to the U.S.S.R. These "vitals" for Oswald were forwarded to CIA which incorporated them into its computerized Biographical Registry, probably as part of an ongoing "mole hunt" involving another "defector," Robert Webster, at the time. --Tommy PS Baker wasn't "trained as an observer." Studies have shown that policemen don't remember things any better than the common person.

Richard, Oswald returned to the second floor lunch room? From where? 1 ) The restroom? 2 ) The Dr Pepper machine on the first floor? 3 ) The alcove by the front door? Had he temporarily deserted his post? If Oswald was a lookout, what was he supposed to do in the eventuality some unwanted "visitors" came up the steps right before or during the assassination? Tap out a secret code on a plumbing pipe, with a nickel, to warn his co-conspirators four floors above? --Tommy

Richard, How do you think Lee Harvey Oswald and all these Lee Harvey Oswald doppelgangers were chosen? Do you think they were genetically modified in vitro so they would closely resemble each other some 24 years later? Or were they chosen from thousands of volunteers, a month or two before the assassination? (LOL) Or was it simpler than that? Regardless, where did the Rambler take him? Home? To the Texas Theater? To the Trinity River? Thanks, --Tommy

But Baker didn't take take the passenger elevator, the stairs near the front door, or a freight elevator, did he? (At least not before taking the back stairs.) If not, then he wouldn't have known how confusing the building is. Sandy, You're right of course. But if Baker thought Oswald was of no consequence at the time, he might have had a hard time remembering which floor he had seen him on, later. You know, several hours after walking up and down those stairs and taking those elevators, or whatever it was that he and Truly did in that strange building. --Tommy

Richard, In Inside Job you write about Shelley and Lovelady: "Why did this twosome pretend they had no contact with Oswald on the front landing? One obvious reason was that they would have been asked which direction he went [when he left at 12:34]. Did he go right, or did he go left? A left would have meshed with the story that began emerging the next day, that he had walked several blocks and boarded a city bus that soon became mired in traffic. A right meant he went toward the pergola, to wait for a pre-arranged rendezvous with a white 1961 Rambler that had picked him up on the Elm St. curb, according to Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig." http://jfkinsidejob.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/INSIDE-JOB.pdf Do you think Oswald was picked up by the Rambler? If so, which Oswald are you talking about? The same one that Baker had encountered on the second floor? Thanks, --Tommy

The nameless, faceless, and stateless Sponsors. The nameless, faceless, and stateless Sponsors who didn't like him and wanted him dead, Greg. LOL --Tommy

So a trained cop doesn't know when he has reached the second floor. You think he mistook a turn in the stairs for a floor? He saw a man walking away from him not that he walked into the lunch room and accosted him. If you believe his later version, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that you might be interested in. It's a confusing building, Ray. Maybe that's one of the reasons it was chosen. It has a passenger elevator that only goes to up to the fourth floor, stairs near the front door that only go up to the second floor, a basement that's half above ground and half under ground, split-level stairways, eccentric freight elevators, etc. Baker was a motorcycle cop, not an architect. He had lots on his mind. No wonder he was confused. If I had been Baker, I, too, probably would have been confused, when I was writing my report, about which floor I had encountered Oswald on in that darn building. Why? For the simple reason that I wouldn't have made any special effort to remember the incident. Based on what Truly had told me about him at the time, I would have thought that Oswald was of no consequence. I don't know about you, but I don't try to remember details of things that I think are of no consequence in my life. I have a hard enough time remembering the things I think are important! --Tommy

You forget one small detail, Richard. When Truly realized Baker was not behind him on the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, he returned to the 2nd floor landing to see what became of Baker. He described what happened next to the Warren Commission: "Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24." In other words, if the vestibule door was closed, it was definitely NOT a soundproof door, if Truly could hear Baker and Oswald speaking through it. By his own testimony, Truly only leaned through the vestibule door long enough for Baker to turn back to him and ask "This man work here?" to which Truly replied "Yes". Five little words, all one syllable words, then Truly said they departed for the 3rd floor "immediately". Your estimation of Truly being inside the vestibule for 20-30 seconds is a gross exaggeration, when you consider it only took Baker 20 seconds to race his motorcycle to a point 45 feet from the TSBD steps, park it, dismount and run all the way to the TSBD front entrance, throwing people out of the way, as Baker described it. No, Truly stated he opened the door back and leaned in. He said nothing about going through the door, and why would he? Baker was only a couple of feet from him in the lunch room doorway. How did Truly know Baker was holding a revolver to Oswald's stomach, without going further than the vestibule doorway? It's all in Truly's testimony, Richard. "Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes." Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. All right." Roy Truly can be forgiven for putting the cart before the horse, as this was indeed a tense moment, but his description could have been accurate. When Marrion Baker turned to speak with Truly, he most likely turned his whole upper body and exposed the revolver in his right hand. Getting back to the lack of soundproofing in the vestibule door, and the short (much shorter than you think) duration of Truly's foray into the vestibule, we again are faced with a problem. If the vestibule door was closed, as you seem to believe despite a complete lack of evidence to support this notion, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles would still have heard the exchange between Baker and Truly, through the closed door, as they passed through the 2nd floor landing. As you may be aware, sound will travel through a door equally well in both directions. From the WC testimony of Victoria Adams: "Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor? Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute? Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately. Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time? Miss ADAMS - That's correct. Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs? Miss ADAMS - Correct" Dear Robert, 1 ) If you reread Richard's earlier posts, you'll see he never claimed the vestibule door was soundproof. 2 ) How do you know Truly couldn't have seen the gun in Baker's hand, pointing at Oswald's stomach, before Baker turned Truly's way? Truly's testimony actually indicates he could see the gun pointed at Oswald as soon as he reached the vestibule door, and that Baker, realizing that Truly was standing behind him (or at his side) then turned towards Truly to ask him if Oswald worked in that building: Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes." http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm 3 ) Rather than there being "a complete lack of evidence" to support Richard's contention the vestibule door was closed behind Baker, Truly, and Oswald, the opposite is actually the case. It was a new, self-closing door! 4 ) Adams and Styles were quickly walking a short distance (from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell) across a wooden floor in noisy 3" heels, and they were probably talking to each other, as well. No wonder they couldn't hear Baker and Truly talking inside the vestibule, especially if the vestibule door was closed behind them. --Tommy You and Gilbride are living in a fantasy world. It would take no more than 5 seconds for Truly to stick his head through the vestibule door, exchange five short words with Baker, and have them immediately leave for the 3rd floor. Period. Adams and Styles did not have enough time to cross the landing without running into Baker and Truly. Not to mention the astronomical odds against them crossing the landing in the precise five second moment Truly stuck his head into the vestibule. Remember, Victoria Adams testified to seeing no one on her way down the steps. Only an idiot or a paid disinfo agent would maintain the 2nd floor lunch room encounter actually occurred. [emphasis added by T. Graves] Dear Robert, You make it sound as if Adams and Styles crossed the whole floor. All they did was walk the short, curving distance from one stairwell to the adjoining stairwell, both of which were in the same corner of the building. Then they disappeared down that stairwell. All done while wearing 3" heels which must have been very noisy on that wooden floor and on those wooden steps. They had just heard some gunshots about thirty seconds earlier, heard bystanders screaming down below along the motorcade route, and seen the beautiful Jackie Kennedy crawl up on the back part of the Presidential limousine. Do you think they might have been talking about that, or do you think they were walking downstairs without talking, being as quiet as ... church mice? You are right about one thing, though, Bob. I am an idiot. I'm a freaking moron and an idiot to try to "talk sense" to you. --Tommy PS By the way, I believe it's against the Education Forum's Code of Conduct for one member to libel or even "cast aspersions" on another member. Your accusing me of being a "disinfo" in the PM you sent me at 6:54 this morning has been brought to the moderators' attention, not via any PM's I might have sent them about it (I haven't), but by my telling everyone about it on this thread. (I optimistically assume that some of the moderators read this thread from time to time.) And now you've really done it -- you've rather foolishly "gone public" and accused me in your most recent post of being either an "idiot" or a "paid disinformation agent." Why? Because I "maintain" that the "2nd floor lunch room encounter" could have "actually occurred." Way to go, Bob, you're really on a roll. I have a suggestion for you, Bobby. Go ahead and try to follow through on your threat to "expose" me as a "disinfo" agent." It will be interesting to see what you come up with! Please? Pretty please with sugar on it? I really need the money. edited and bumped for Prudhomme