Thomas Graves

[...] Because we all know they planned the JFK assassination, so they must have all been together in Dallas when Harvey flew in from Italy? [...] sorry, I don't read it quite that way, because Harvey flew in from Italy... What did those heavyweights find so interesting in Dallas in the weeks leading up to the assassination? What did they find? Nothing, absolutely nothing. What did they have? Front row seats. Where is the logic in Jim DiEugenio's statement?: "[...] Bill Harvey was on a plane to Dallas in November from Italy. Which means that the following people were in Dallas either on the day of the assassination or in the weeks leading up to it: Allen Dulles Allen Dulles David Phillips Howard Hunt Bill Harvey." I'm not saying that it didn't happen. It very well may have. I just don't understand how DiEugenio could automatically arrive at this conclusion. It seems that Jimbo doesn't know how to use the words }possibly." or "probably" or the phrase "may have." --Tommy

No idea, Bob. He was hard enough to find pre-assassination photographs of. He does look fairly tall, though, in those frames where he, Danny Arce, and 6' 2" Bonnie Ray Williams are getting into the police car. FWIW, we do know that Billy Lovelady was quite short, like 5' 7", I my memory is serving me well. --Tommy

[...] Because we all know they planned the JFK assassination, so they must have all been together in Dallas when Harvey flew in from Italy? [...] sorry, I don't read it quite that way, because Harvey flew in from Italy... What did those heavyweights find so interesting in Dallas in the weeks leading up to the assassination? Let me rephrase my question -- "How do we know they were in Dallas?" --Tommy

Dear Jim, What's the logic here? Yes, I know their CIA backgrounds. Why do you say they all must have been in Dallas because Harvey was in Dallas? ZR/Rifle - Staff D business? General anti-Castro business? Because we all know they planned the JFK assassination, so they must have all been together in Dallas when Harvey flew in from Italy? Please explain. --Tommy

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Question: Can Bill Shelley and / or Billy Lovelady be seen walking down the Elm Street Extension in this Couch / Darnell enlargement (with the red circle) ? Please vote "Yes." "No," or "Undecided." Thanks. --Tommy

Yes, and since I think you're paranoid, I'm a Lone Nutter, aren't I, Bob? Or is it a "Paid Disinformation Agent," again? What's your paranoid mind (IMHO) telling you about me this week? You've already apologized to me once by PM. Are you going go over the top and have to do it again? --Tommy

Please don't get all paranoid again, Bob. It's reasonable to assume that you're referring to certain members of this forum, yes? If so, why do you feel the need to impugn the character of Forum members who disagree with you? It's very divisive and tends to put a dampener on the free exchange of ideas and theories. Is that your intention? Do you feel like you're on some kind of Mission and that you have a "corner" on the Truth Market? Sincerely, --Tommy Why do you immediately assume I am referring to you? Well gosh, Bob, I didn't say anything about myself, did I. Regardless, kudos to you. At least this time you're not (more honestly and more directly) saying what you really want to say -- "If the shoe fits, wear it" -- like you did last time. You're becoming more "sophisticated," but unfortunately you're still way to paranoiac, IMHO. --Tommy

Really, Bobby. It's like I said. I think both Lovelady and Baker were too dull intellect-wise to be chosen to be bad guys. Clever, devious Shelly probably told Lovelady to l-i-e to the Warren Commision about seeing Vicki Adams on the first floor, near the back of the building, when Shelley and Lovelady (supposedly) returned from the railway yard / parking lot and entered the TSBD through a rear or side door. I'm guessing that they really hadn't seen Vicki Adams there, and that they may not have even entered the TSBD that way and / or at that time. I'm guessing that dull Lovelady realized that he would be committing perjury if he l-i-e-d to the Warren Commission like that, but he kinda went through with it, anyway, and totally "spilled the beans" when he blurted out, "But I couldn't swear that it was Viki Adams," or words to that effect. See what I mean by "dull intellectually-speaking"? Regarding Baker, I've read that some of his colleagues in the police department considered him to be one of the duller knives in the drawer. If he was rather dull intellectually-speaking, then I think it's unlikely that the ground-level Dallas "powers that be" (Truly and Shelley) would have chosen Baker to be one of their bad guys. But maybe I'm all wrong, Bobby. So what? Live goes on, regardless. I'm not "all hung up" on the idea that Baker was as pure as the driven snow. By the way, are you ever going to ask anyone to please blow up and "enhance" the part of Darnell that you think shows Lovelady rising up from his sack lunch on the steps or perhaps climbing the steps backwards? Or was be bending over just before that and talking with somebody on the sidewalk, below? I would do it myself, but I don't know how. Have you done so already, or has someone already done it voluntarily? (I haven't looked at the other threads yet, today.) --Tommy

Please don't get all paranoid again, Bob. It's reasonable to assume that you're referring to certain members of this forum, yes? If so, why do you feel the need to impugn the character of Forum members who disagree with you? It's very divisive and tends to put a dampener on the free exchange of ideas and theories. Is that your intention? Do you feel like you're on some kind of Mission and that you have a "corner" on the Truth Market? Sincerely, --Tommy

Robert, Unless, of course, in order to create an alibi for ... Gloria Calvery. Yes, Robert, I smell a slimy, pink-tailed rodent or two. And something really stinky in Denmark, as well. FWIW, I'm inclined to believe Baker more than the others, including the inconveniently-deceased (1978?) Gloria Jean Calvery. At this point, I mistrust Shelley and Truly the most. But Gloria Jean is rapidly catching up with them in my book. Regarding Shelley, I re-read his March 18, 1964, (unsigned; copy) statement to the FBI the other day, and something kinda jumped out at me: "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building..." Accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards? Really now, Bill (or Mr. Hoover or Mr. Shanklin). Don't you think that's just a bit ... over the top? That's almost as incongruent as Billy Lovelady's WC testimony where he says, "... but I wouldn't swear to it that it was Vicki Adams," or words to that effect. --Tommy PS Regarding Lovelady, I frankly don't think he was intelligent enough to have been a bad guy. Nor Baker for that matter. Shelley and Truly, on the other hand...

Thanks for the feedback, Pat. --Tommy

Dear Robert, Please allow me to rephrase my question. Which of the women in the extant photographs and films is Gloria Calvery, in your humble opinion? I'm talking, of course, about the photographs and films taken in the general Dealey Plaza area immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination. Another way of asking that question is, "Based on the photographic evidence, where was Gloria Calvery standing immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination?" Or am I assuming too much? Are you just going on her (perhaps unsigned) statement to the notorious FBI? There were three women standing together by the Stemmons sign. Didn't you decide that the dark-complected one couldn't possibly have been Calvery, despite what my waitress friend said? So what about the woman I helped you to "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, standing "behind" another woman near the Thornton sign? Do you think she is Calvery? Seein' as how you think Shelley probably fibbed a little about his activities after the assassination (as did probably Lovelady, Truly, and maybe even Baker), who's to say Gloria didn't fib a little to help cover for her buddy Shelley? In other words, maybe they didn't meet on the "island" at all. Say, wouldn't it be something if Gloria Jean Calvery, herself, shot JFK from an upper floor of the TSBD? Maybe with a little help from Jack Dougherty? And wouldn't it be something if she wasn't "covering" for Shelley and Lovelady, but they were actually covering for her? With a little help from the notorious FBI, of course. Boy oh boy, that would really be something... --Tommy Bumped for Robert Prudhomme because I was still editing and adding the final few sentences when he posted a response. PS Let's face it Bob. If Calvery was standing where she said she was standing (and with whom she said she was standing), it should be very easy indeed to spot her in the photographs and films that were taken during the motorcade's passing down Elm Street. And in Couch / Darnell, as well. So, where is she? Just sayin'...

Dear Robert, Please allow me to rephrase my question. Which of the women in the extant photographs and films is Gloria Calvery, in your humble opinion? I'm talking, of course, about the photographs and films taken in the general Dealey Plaza area immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination. Another way of asking that question is, "Based on the photographic evidence, where was Gloria Calvery standing immediately before, during, or immediately after the assassination?" Or am I assuming too much? Are you just going on her (perhaps unsigned) statement to the notorious FBI? There were three women standing together by the Stemmons sign. Didn't you decide that the dark-complected one couldn't possibly have been Calvery, despite what my waitress friend said? So what about the woman I helped you to "see" in the Altgens 6 photo, standing "behind" another woman near the Thornton sign? Do you think she is Calvery? Seein' as how you think Shelley probably fibbed a little about his activities after the assassination (as did probably Lovelady, Truly, and maybe even Baker), who's to say Gloria didn't fib a little to help cover for her buddy Shelley? In other words, maybe they didn't meet on the "island" at all. Say, wouldn't it be something if Gloria Jean Calvery, herself, shot JFK from an upper floor of the TSBD? Maybe with a little help from Jack Dougherty? And if she wasn't "covering" for Shelley and Lovelady, but they were actually covering for her? Boy oh boy, that would really be something... --Tommy

Beats the heck out of me, Bob. It really does. Have you actually found Calvery down on Elm before or during the assassination? If so, where? By the Stemmons sign? By the Thornton sign? Where, pray tell? Who was that Running Woman in Couch / Darnell, anyway? So many questions, so little time... --Tommy

Dear Robert, Great! So, obviously Shelley would have been out of view while he was talking to his wife on the phone. And apparently he didn't go back out onto the front steps after that phone conversation was over. Or did he? If he didn't, then he would have still been out of sight from all the photographers outside, darn it all. Now what about Lovelady? Once again, have you actually proved that "Lovelady stayed of the steps, as seen in Darnell?" You haven't? Well, have you considered asking Chris Davidson or your nemesis, Duncan MacRae, to blow up and "enhance" your "Lovelady on the steps, as seen in Darnell?" Maybe we'll get lucky, and someone will volunteer to do it! Believe me, I would love for you to prove me wrong. Why? Because then at least we'd be making some definite progress in solving this case. But then, of course, we'd have another mystery: Just who were those two guys walking together down and / or arcoss Elm Street Extension about 30 seconds after the assassination? The Lone Ranger and Tonto? Gosh darn it all. --Tommy PS Do you think Shelley and / or Lovelady went down to the railway yard / parking lot within ten minutes? Five minutes? Never during that early afternoon? Regardless, did they take a short walk somewhere and enter the TSBD through a rear or side door?

[...] Mysterious double post. Maybe due to the slow, on again, off again WiFi at this coffee house? Anyway, deleted. Don't get all paranoid on me now. --Tommy

Dear Robert, Good, rational post. Fine. So now we know what you believe didn't happen. Fantastic. But I for one would like to know what you think did happen, especially as regards Shelley and Lovelady. In other words, what do you think Shelley and Lovelady did do during the first three or so minutes, immediately after the assassination? Do you have an opinion on that, Bob? If so, are you willing to share it with us? Please? Of course if you'd rather not, I totally understand... I hope you don't think I'm being too "demanding." Thank you in advance!, --Tommy

You're fond of calling people "hoaxers" and looking down your long nose at all of the other members here, yet you seem to agree to a certain hoax involving the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady. Does that not make you a hoaxer, as well? Dear Robert, Which parts of Shelley's and Lovelady's statements and testimonies do you believe, and which parts of their statements and testimonies do you disbelieve? Thanks, --Tommy

Scott, Not quite sure what you mean by "Banister FBI reporting to McCord" ?? Could you clarify that a bit? Thanks Bill Bill, glad you were the only one who caught that, PM me your email and I'll dig up the CIA document and provide you the information so long as you keep this to yourself. This is new information going in my book. With more than one million five hundred thousand documents this was like finding a needle in a haystack. Guess I just got lucky. There are a few Watergate burglars still alive today that also confirmed the information. I mean exactly what I'm saying, Banister did do some reporting to McCord. McCord did head up the counterintelligence against FPCC not Banister. Scott Kaiser P.S. You may contact me at scott-kaiser@hotmail.com please title in the subject line "McCord" I'll send you the document under the condition you are not to share this document with anyone, no exceptions. Hey Scott! I noticed it, too. And I also noticed it when you first alluded to it on this forum several weeks ago. Could you also please send it to me via e-mail (you already have my e-mail address)? I hereby promise not to tell anyone about it or share it with anyone. Thanks, --Tommy

[...] [T]he "will-call counter bump" you refer to proves nothing, as it could have occurred later as well. -- Prudhomme Dear Robert, If the "counter bump" occurred later, then why did both Truly and Baker say it happened right after they entered the front entrance (about 30 seconds after the assassination), when they were making their way to the elevator / stairs to go up to the roof? Why did they both include such an insignificant event in their statements? To add an element of "realism" to their l-i-e-s? You have both of them as bad guys, huh? --Tommy More distraction, Thomas. Of course the will-call counter bump happened right after they entered the TSBD. That is not in question here. When they entered the TSBD is something that is yet to be established. Merely repeating over and over when you believe T & B entered the TSBD is not evidence, and does not make your belief true. We have Shelley and Lovelady telling obvious lies in their testimonies, can you not imagine Baker and Truly doing the same? More false argument and rhetorical questions, Robert. Of course you missed, or more likely chose to ignore, the "(about 30 seconds after the assassination)" in my post, above. Frazier's and Molina's saying they didn't see Baker run up the steps doesn't prove that he didn't do so. Frazier and Molina could have been distracted by something else and / or Baker might have run behind them. Pauline Sander's statement to the FBI says Baker did run up the steps and enter the TSBD. By the way, what were the names of the policemen you think Baker conferred with down at the intersection of Elm and Houston? Whoever they were, did they ever say anything about Baker's running up to them to ask them some questions about where the shots had come from? Baker became pretty famous for running into the "correct" building and looking for the assassin(s), didn't he? If Baker had run down to the policemen at the intersection and the policemen had confirmed Baker's suspicions that the sniper had fired from an upper floor or the roof of the TSBD, don't you think those policemen would have wanted to get on the record as having told Baker look for the sniper in that building? ("We were right! We were right, but that dummy Baker let him get away!") Wouldn't Baker's running up to them like that have stuck in their minds, especially since by the time they made their statements (if any), the "official" story was that someone (Oswald?) had shot the President from a 6th floor "sniper's perch" in the TSBD? Don't you think it strange that, given these circumstances, the policeman or policemen whom you seem to think Baker ran down to 1 ) thought it was too insignificant to relay to the authorities (in statements or reports), or 2 ) somehow forgot all about Baker's running up to them? --Tommy

Wow! I can't believe that you believe that. What I heard as I listened to the debate was DiEugenio bringing up difficult-after-difficult-to-explain problems with the WC story, and McAdams replying with "that's another a CTer factoid" followed by WC doctrine, but NO explanation for the difficult-to-explain WC problem. That you believe the way you do on the debate makes *me* wonder if you have LNer tendencies. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Before now I've been agnostic about your inclinations... you just seemed to disagree with a lot of people. DiEugenio was out of his depth with his lack of knowledge of the actual unimpeachable facts of the case. Factoids are not facts, and until he learns this, he will always be a fiction writer and debater. Jim DiEugenio. Wow. The author of some of the most well researched and documented books available. Books FILLED WITH FACTS. Thanks for outing yourself Duncan. That explains a lot. It seems to me that Jim DiEugenio never saw a JFK assassination conspiracy theory he didn't love. Except for maybe The Aliens did it, or the Secret Service guy with the machine gun blew JFK's brains out by mistake, or Greer turned around and shot JFK. But that's about it. --Tommy

[...] [T]he "will-call counter bump" you refer to proves nothing, as it could have occurred later as well. -- Prudhomme Dear Robert, If the "counter bump" occurred later, then why did both Truly and Baker say it happened right after they entered the front entrance (about 30 seconds after the assassination), when they were making their way to the elevator / stairs to go up to the roof? Why did they both include such an insignificant event in their statements? To add an element of "realism" to their l-i-e-s? You have both of them as bad guys, huh? --Tommy