Thomas Graves

deleted -- TG

Edited and bumped so that Forum members might judge for themselves [EDIT: ... eventually ... hehehe ...] (Larsen, Prudhomme, and Stancak were on record a year ago as agreeing with me that the crying woman in the Darnell frames was Gloria Jeanne Holt.) -- TG

Bart, You mean ... gasp ... I've made a horrible mistake in saying that one of those two highschool photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt very strongly resembles your crying "Gloria Calvery," and that it's therefore highly unlikely that the crying light-haired gal (your "Gloria Calvery") walking up the *north* side of Elm Street with ... gasp ... Stella Mae Jacob ... and one other gal (who has a very-unlike Westbrook *long* face, btw), ISN'T Gloria Jeanne Holt, after all, but ... but ... but ... Gloria Calvery ??? How will I ever live this down, Sandy? Andrej? Robert Prudhomme? -- TG Four (4) Darnell frames showing Bart's and Westbrook's crying, alleged "Gloria Calvery," posted here so that Forum members might compare them with this (1963?) high school photo of Gloria Jeanne Holt: [here in a minute or two, Lord willing ...] You be the judge, Forum members. https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=12

That is probably correct, Bart. What's the point you're trying to make by posting this photo? -- TG

I believe this is her 1962 photo, and the other one is from 1963, correct? Do you think she might have grown some during the intervening year, Bart? -- TG

Thanks, Bart. Yes, that's the photo of Gloria Jeanne Holt that convinced me, Sandy, Andrej, and others that the young woman Speth, Roberdeau, and Unger had mislabeled as "Karan Hicks" was, in fact, Gloria Jeanne Holt. Thanks again! -- TG PS My sincere apologies to my former colleague here, Linda Giovanna Zambanini. I will forever be grateful for her finding and posting on ROKC the high school photos of "Westbrook's Calvery," Gloria Jeanne Holt.

Sandy, I suspect that Calvery had dark red hair and that Holt had light red hair. Either that, or Westbrook's memory is really, really bad. -- TG BTW, Brian Doyle told me by FM Messenger today that Mr. Calvery mentioned on the phone that his mother had told him that she was wearing a headscarf that day.

Bart, Looks as though you're getting quite desperate. Could you please tell me how to upload to this forum the screenshot I took of Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos? You know, the ones your buddy Stan Dane so kindly posted on ROKC about a year ago? (Are the still there by the way, or have they been deleted?) -- TG

Bart, Why has Don Roberdeau (correctly) labeled those three women as Jacob, Holt, and Simmons in his revised map? And why have you at least (correctly) identified the brown-coat-wearing woman in Cabluck as Stella Mae Jacob? (Sarcasm: Was that a mistake on your part?) -- TG

Right. Because they already knew he was KGB, and they *suspected* that he was Department 13. Question: Did he cross the border and come to my hometown of San Diego, or did he only go to Ensenada and Tijuana? -- TG

Mike, Sorry, ... "while giving LHO a pass when the two actually met" ?? What makes you think Oswald and Kostikov actually met? Was the cable that Kostikov and Nechiporenko and/or Yatsov claimed after the assassination to have sent to Moscow about their meeting with Oswald ever released by the Kremlin? Wasn't Tennent H. Bagley's belief that Oswald had met with Kostikov based on what turned out to have been a phone call by an Oswald imposter who "couldn't remember" the name of the Soviet consul he had supposedly met with a just couple of days earlier? And even though CIA already knew that Kostikov was KGB, wasn't CIA's only reason for suspecting that he was Department 13 ultimately based on what false double-agent Aleksei Kulak (aka Fedora) had told CIA-hating J. Edgar Hoover? -- TG

Devil's Advocate Rhetorical Questions: "Why did Frazier deny that Oswald watched the motorcade with him?" "And why did he say Oswald took a long package to work that day?" -- TG

Robin, Sandy and I are already well aware of Westbrook's major boo-boos in that interview, as well as Thierry Speth's, Don Roberdeau's, and YOURS regarding your collective misidentification of Jacob, Holt, and Simmons, respectively, as "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed" in the Z-Film back in the day. Are you aware that Roberdeau FINALLY got it right about Jacob, Holt, and Simmons on his revised map? My God, haven't you been following our posts on the subject matter, Robin? -- TG

Major "PS" and bumped

Excellent point, Sandy. I hadn't thought of that. It would appear that Bart's "modified limited hangout" has backfired on him big time. -- TG PS Could you or someone else please tell me how to post here a "screenshot" that's on my hard drive? My laptop is using non-touch Windows 10, Google Chrome (and Mozilla Firefox). It has neither Word, nor Office, nor Photo bucket, nor PhotoShop, nor any "snipping tools" (that I know of). Thank you! -- TG

Excellent work, Sandy. It's obvious to me that Simmons has a longish face, and that Westbrook has a squarish or even roundish face. You can see that about Westbrook here, and even more so in her recent Sixth Floor Museum interview. It's too bad Smilin' Stephen Fagin didn't turn Westbrook onto Darnell's film of Jacob, Holt, and Simmons walking toward the TSBD. If he had, then Westbrook would have undoubtedly realized the mistakes (plural) she was making in her "identifications." -- TG

Sandy, "Or so it seems" ?? I'm Laughing Out Loud, Comrade! -- TG

Sandy, Either that, or (presumably shorter than LHO's 5' 9.5") Sarah Stanton was fiddling with her purse or something back there in the corner while saying to Buell, "Yep, that's what I heard Gloria say to Billy, too!" -- TG

Sandy, Have you ever considered the fact that the top landing area and the steps comprised such a small area that everybody on same was effectively close and within speaking distance of everybody else on same? How far do you think Frazier was from "Prayer Man" and vice versa? (I agree with you BTW that PM was standing in the corner.) Have you watched a blow up of the GIF and noticed how Frazier turns his head towards "Prayer Man" as though he's talking with him or her? Do you believe that "Prayer Man" was your "Harvey" (oops, let's not even "go" there right now), and that Frazier lied, lied, lied when he said he didn't see Oswald during the motorcade? (Had any luck finding any of those photos we posted about a year ago, comrade?) -- TG

Sandy, Do you have anything to say whatsoever about my previous post about Gloria Jeanne Holt's "expired" high school photos? Did you miss it? -- TG PS Did I ruthlessly plagiarize something, or perhaps forget to give someone, once-removed, credit?

Bart, Boy, are you ever confused. That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. IIRC, it wasn't too long ago that you (and many others, "thanks" to Thierry Speth's and Donald Roberdeau's and Robin Unger's mislabeling of Stella Mae Jacob back in the day) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery! It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh? (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and it influenced her to say that? Easy mistake to make, I guess, looking at people not only from a distance, but from behind in a 8mm film frame some 55 years after the fact.) -- TG PS If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website about a year ago (are they still there?). When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here. Not to worry, though! Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.) When I do that you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago. Major edit and bumped

, if so, if so, Boy are you ever confused, Bart. That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. It wasn't too long ago that you (and many others) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery! It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh? (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and maybe it influenced her to say that? (It's an easy mistake to make, I guess, you know, trying to identify people not only from a distance in an 8mm film frame, but from behind and some fifty-five years after the fact.) -- TG PS If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website when I checked a year ago (are they still there?). When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here. Not to worry, though! Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt, I will do so. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.) When I do, you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago.

Bart, Yup what? Yup you are trying to provoke me? (I've got some bad news for you, Bart, it isn't working. See how civil I'm being? I even called you by your preferred name!) By the way, while you're here, please answer the following questions for us: Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview you posted when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame? If not, do you prefer to believe that Gloria Calvery was the dark-complected and dark-haired woman "caught" in Darnell's clip and therefore recognizable as being the woman standing closer to the Stemmons Freeway sign whom Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeau, and Robin Unger labeled "Gloria Calvary" back-in-the-day? If not, do you prefer to think that Gloria Calvery was that lithe "Running Woman" running across and down Elm Street Extension? Or, when it comes right down to it, would you now prefer to say that for some mysterious reason you haven't been able to spot Gloria Calvery in the 11/22/63 photos and films, yet? Thanks, -- TG

That the best you can do, Bart? (Quite impressive, actually. How long did it take you?) -- TG

Bart, My time is up here? Do you know something I don't know? About my standing on the Forum, that is? You aren't trying to provoke me, now, are you? I mean, isn't that against the rules? Have you noticed how I stopped saying "With all due respect" to fellow members a week ago, and how civil and polite I've been, and how I even voluntarily acceded to James DiEugenio's desire to refer to me as "TG" by calling myself the same? Seeing as how the moderators are very fair-minded people, and how I've been quite civil ever since the "Perfect Storm" of Kathy Beckett's being on vacation in England for ten days, and James Gordon's PM box being full, and David Josephs not really having been banned, but Dawn Meretith's evidently being told by David that he had been banned, and Paul Brancato's dramatic threatening to leave as a reaction thereto, etc, etc, etc, etc, why in the world would my time be "up" anymore that anyone else's here? Regardless, I do have a serious question for you now that you are here: Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame? -- TG